When 28,000 People Lose Their Jobs Because of the Courts

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
I have to look at this Supreme Court decision today and just shake my head in disgust. Arthur Anderson was one of the top 5 accounting firms in the country seemingly forever. If you have a job at a top 5 firm you were practically assured work for life, accountants don't really have swings in their business at this level. Regardless of businesses making or losing money, they still pay the accountants.

Back in 2002 the DOJ went after AA because they were Enron's auditors. At the heart of the court battle was their maintence of records. Did Anderson destroy records as a matter of business practicality? Or did they destroy records as a matter of obstruction. How many years back did they maintain their records? It's unclear from a legal or regulatory standpoint how long audit records need to be kept from what I'm gathering from this decision.

Was this destruction of records one compartment of the firm? Or policy for the corporation. Were there universal standards? Unclear.

So, as a result of the 6th District decision AA was found to be guilty of criminal obstruction of justice. Result? The firm's credibility was immediately destroyed. Clients fled in droves and 28,000 people lost their jobs. Now many of them followed their clients to one of the remaining top 4 accounting firms. However a multi-billion dollar company was destroyed, stockholders were devistated and many thousands of those people didn't regain employment in their field all because of a legal decision by judges.

Now, the USSC reversed the conviction today. UNANIMOUSLY! 9-0 the decision was overturned. Now, who's going to sue the courts? Who is going to hold the 6th district responsible for countless wrecked lives? Who is going to repay investors that lost billions?

Absolutely disgraceful that a company of this stature can be destroyed by incompetent judges. Is there any wonder why disdain for the Circuit Courts exists?

Court Overturns Arthur Andersen Conviction
By HOPE YEN
The Associated Press
Tuesday, May 31, 2005; 11:25 AM


WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court on Tuesday overturned the conviction of the Arthur Andersen accounting firm for destroying Enron Corp.-related documents before the energy giant's collapse.

In a unanimous opinion, justices said the former Big Five accounting firm's June 2002 obstruction-of-justice conviction _ which virtually destroyed Andersen _ was improper. The decision said jury instructions at trial were too vague and broad for jurors to determine correctly whether Andersen obstructed justice.

"The jury instructions here were flawed in important respects," Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for the court.

The ruling is a setback for the Bush administration, which made prosecution of white-collar criminals a high priority following accounting scandals at major corporations. After Enron's 2001 collapse, the Justice Department went after Andersen first.

Enron crashed in December 2001, putting more than 5,000 employees out of work, just six weeks after the energy company revealed massive losses and writedowns.

Subsequently, as the Securities and Exchange Commission began looking into Enron's convoluted finances, Andersen put in practice a policy calling for destroying unneeded documentation.

Government attorneys argued that Andersen should be held responsible for instructing its employees to "undertake an unprecedented campaign of document destruction."

But in his opinion, Rehnquist noted that jurors were instructed to convict Andersen if the accounting firm had an "improper purpose," such as an intent to impede or subvert fact-finding in an "official proceeding." He noted jurors were instructed to convict, even if Andersen mistakenly thought it was acting legally.

At trial, Andersen argued that employees who shredded tons of documents followed the policy and there was no intent to thwart the SEC investigation.

The probe into Andersen led to just one guilty plea, from the firm's former top Enron auditor, David Duncan. But the conviction of the Chicago firm forced it to surrender its accounting license and stop conducting public audits. Some 28,000 workers had to find other jobs, and the company was left a shell of its former self.

A ruling against Andersen would have had onerous consequences for businesses, whose discarding of files is an everyday occurrence. Experts say companies would have to keep all files for fear that any disposal, however innocent, could subject them to potential prosecution.

According to Andersen attorneys, notes and drafts of documents were thrown away under the firm's document-retention policy in part because they were preliminary and could have been misconstrued.

Andersen's appeal was backed by the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. It argued in a friend-of-the-court filing that broad characterization of "obstruction" used in the jury instructions would also unfairly punish criminal attorneys who advise their clients to withhold evidence in legal ways.

Such a broad reading could open defense lawyers and others to prosecution if they merely advise clients of their rights to assert legal privileges or review document retention policies, the criminal defense group said.

The case is Andersen v. U.S., 04-368.

Link
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']How did 28,000 people lose their jobs due to the courts decision?[/QUOTE]

I presume this is a legitimate question so I will answer it.

Arthur Andersen was, as a firm convicted of obstruction of justice which under the law was a felony. The conviction was a death sentence for the firm as it could not continue to conduct business with a felony conviction.

Hence the 28,000 people who worked for Andersen were put out of work.

CTL
 
This ruling doesn't mean AA didn't do anything wrong. It means the jury instructions were too vague. I have little sympathy for them.
 
Glad to know you could care less about the actions of a handful of employees rendering 28,000 jobless.

Your sensitivity is duly noted!

EDIT: Damn, I forgot. If you have a white collar job you're a Little Eichmann. Your job is only noble and worthy of protection and caring if you're a "working class" person emptying trash cans, cleaning toilets, vacuuming and mopping.

Sometimes I forget how jobs are valued in this country, I'm stupid that way.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']How did 28,000 people lose their jobs due to the courts decision?[/QUOTE]

How did that question not get answered from reading the OP?

I don't like PAD, but I found his post to be pretty much self explanitory.
 
The sleaziest law firm in the US goes down for committing federal crimes.

Yes, it is the courts fault that the employees lost their jobs :roll:
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The sleaziest law firm in the US goes down for committing federal crimes.

Yes, it is the courts fault that the employees lost their jobs :roll:[/QUOTE]

Oh dear God. AA was not a law firm it was an accounting firm.

The Federal Government had the option of how they wanted to go after AA. They didn't have destroy the firm. There were a variety of other options.

CTL
 
(Warning: Sarcasm Ahead)

I'm certainly glad we're not putting any of the blame for those job losses on Bush's pal Ken Lay et al at Enron. I mean, their criminal actions and phony shell companies had nothing to do with this fallout at all. Why blame AA just for a document shredding frenzy to cover their asses?
 
[quote name='camoor']Also don't forget, light a candle for Ken Lay and Bernie Ebbers tonight. It's so sad when bad things happen to bad people.[/QUOTE]

No one has any issue with what happened to them.

You think some administrative assistant in Seattle deserved to lose her job over this?

Right MBE got to bring it back to the Bush administration don't you?

Pathetic.
 
[quote name='Kayden']How did that question not get answered from reading the OP?

I don't like PAD, but I found his post to be pretty much self explanitory.[/QUOTE]

Cause I had been awake for about 10 minutes and was doing more skimming than complete reading.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Cause I had been awake for about 10 minutes and was doing more skimming than complete reading.[/QUOTE]

Then you should probably do more shutting up instead of asking foolish questions that were already answered.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Then you should probably do more shutting up instead of asking foolish questions that were already answered.[/QUOTE]


LOL

POONED^NTH + 3
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Right MBE got to bring it back to the Bush administration don't you?

Pathetic.[/QUOTE]

I'm just bringing it back where it belongs. It's not my fault Bush and Kenny Boy are buddies. :lol:
 
PAD posts are like one of those dog cartoons were the dog only hears "Food" amoungst garbled words.

In these case PAD hears"courts" and "blame" and licks his chops. This was simply about jury instructions and whether they were too easy to convict. It doesn't say AA was innocent. It also moves the case back to lower courts.

Furthermore, the job losses were the result of AA stopping the practice of conducting public audits of companies. AAs rep was already damaged before the conviction with this and auditing negligence with World Com and Qwest. While the court decision was damaging, the layoffs are largely the result of AAs actions.

Try again.
 
[quote name='usickenme'] This was simply about jury instructions and whether they were too easy to convict. [/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, the judges in question were so incompetent that their befuddled instructions rendered 28,000 jobless.

How silly of me to say it was the judges fault or a fuck up on the judicial systems fault... wait, it was the judges fault.

Next defense?
 
I'm curious about the status of many of the 28,000. If, as PAD posits, AA employees were in a "top 5" firm, they could ideally find work anywhere, right? "Cream of the crop" and all that.

On the other hand, perhaps other firms didn't want to hire people with the "Arthur Andersen stink" to them. Perhaps they couldn't make any new hires because the economy was in the shitter.

The important question is this: where are the 28,000 today? Are they working, and for whom?

AA wasn't going to get out of the court hearing unscathed, regardless of the outcome; their association with Enron made them complicit by association, regardless of whether that was a good thing or not. Would they have ceased to exist if not for the court's decision? I imagine not. Still, many would have lost their jobs.

We would expect such experts to find work elsewhere, if free market rationality holds constant.

myke.
...this poses a real problem: if the upper echelon of a company is convicted of serious white-collar felonies, yet the remainder of the company is "innocent," how can we (or have we) placed sanctions that are appropriately punitive, but allow the company to continue under new leadership? Do such precedents exist?
 
I do feel sympathy for the average AA workers, i.e. the ones who were running the (corrupt) show. I feel the same sympathy for the average Enron employee. And I think that when the sentencing comes down for the CEO bastards, the judges should take into account the many lives they wrecked.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Oh yeah, the judges in question were so incompetent that their befuddled instructions rendered 28,000 jobless.

How silly of me to say it was the judges fault or a fuck up on the judicial systems fault... wait, it was the judges fault.
[/QUOTE]

Well it was the judges fault..read the SC's ruling not the spin.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/....supremecourtus.gov/opinions/04pdf/04-368.pdf

and I quote.

"For these reasons [cited above]. the jury instructions here were flawed in important respects. The judgement of the Court of Appeals is reversed and the case is remanded for futher proceedings consistent with this opinion"
 
Now let's cry over all of those soldiers and guards that were laid off because the meanie liberals in America stopped Hitler.

Potential job loss, while sad, should not have even the slightest weight on the rulings of the courts when dealing with companies like Arthur Anderson and the Nazi Party of 1940 Germany.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm curious about the status of many of the 28,000. If, as PAD posits, AA employees were in a "top 5" firm, they could ideally find work anywhere, right? "Cream of the crop" and all that.

On the other hand, perhaps other firms didn't want to hire people with the "Arthur Andersen stink" to them. Perhaps they couldn't make any new hires because the economy was in the shitter.

The important question is this: where are the 28,000 today? Are they working, and for whom?

AA wasn't going to get out of the court hearing unscathed, regardless of the outcome; their association with Enron made them complicit by association, regardless of whether that was a good thing or not. Would they have ceased to exist if not for the court's decision? I imagine not. Still, many would have lost their jobs.

We would expect such experts to find work elsewhere, if free market rationality holds constant.

myke.
...this poses a real problem: if the upper echelon of a company is convicted of serious white-collar felonies, yet the remainder of the company is "innocent," how can we (or have we) placed sanctions that are appropriately punitive, but allow the company to continue under new leadership? Do such precedents exist?[/QUOTE]

For the love of God. Andersen was an LLP. Limited Liabilty Partnership. Am I am the only one here who understands even the most basic of corporate structures and what it takes to pierce the corporate veil.

Enjoy your academic pontifications. They are meaningless.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']For the love of God. Andersen was an LLP. Limited Liabilty Partnership. Am I am the only one here who understands even the most basic of corporate structures and what it takes to pierce the corporate veil.

Enjoy your academic pontifications. They are meaningless.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the elaboration.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']For the love of God. Andersen was an LLP. Limited Liabilty Partnership. Am I am the only one here who understands even the most basic of corporate structures and what it takes to pierce the corporate veil.

Enjoy your academic pontifications. They are meaningless.

CTL[/QUOTE]

if you are going to act superior you could at least spell Liability correctly.
 
[quote name='mydyke']Thanks for the elaboration.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain something that complicated to someone attempting to sound smarter than they actually are.

[quote name='usm']]if you are going to act superior you could at least spell Liability correctly.[/quote]

If you are going to correct someone's spelling than watch your capitalization:

f you are going to act superior you could at least spell Liability correctly.
 
PAD do you become dumber by the day? You used to be crazy, thats fine, but at least back up what you say. Now you just go on rants thta make no sense. The courts had nothing to do with this. They were fucking around a and a few people caused the company to go under. Those few people were not the judges through. So stop acting like all judges are "Activists".
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain something that complicated to someone attempting to sound smarter than they actually are.[/QUOTE]

Said the pot to the kettle.

myke.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']


If you are going to correct someone's spelling than watch your capitalization:

[/QUOTE]


weak..

(and it is if-then )
 
[quote name='David85']PAD do you become dumber by the day? You used to be crazy, thats fine, but at least back up what you say. Now you just go on rants thta make no sense. The courts had nothing to do with this. They were fucking around a and a few people caused the company to go under. Those few people were not the judges through. So stop acting like all judges are "Activists".[/QUOTE]

WTF are you talking about? The bad instructions were what caused the conviction. The conviction that was overturned because of those bad instructions.

The conviction cost AA their accounting license, hence the layoff of 28,000 people. Like I said, many of them followed the clients they worked on to the remaining top 4 accounting firms, roughly 70% from what I remember. That still leaves 8,400 people that lost their jobs more or less because of bad instructions from the bench.

Of course the courts and judges had everything to do with this! What are you, stupid? Incapable of reading? It was the decision that came from this trial that led to AA not being able to continue as accountants. What more do you need to see that the courts screwed up and cost people their jobs and investors billions?

They inevitably would have lost clients because of the Enron image problem, they wouldn't have ceased to exist to the extent they are today.

The courts had everything to do with their demise, after Enron broke they laid off 5,000. Last I checked that's a hell of a lot less than 28,000.

I guess though my earlier statement was right. These were all Little Eichmanns that lost their jobs so there's no need to give a shit what happened.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
The conviction cost AA their accounting license, hence the layoff of 28,000 people. Like I said, many of them followed the clients they worked on to the remaining top 4 accounting firms, roughly 70% from what I remember. That still leaves 8,400 people that lost their jobs more or less because of bad instructions from the bench.

.[/QUOTE]


First of all, read up on the 28,000 jobs. AA ended the practice of auditing. They could no longer provide that service in a professional manner. Partially because of the case, partially because of their other problems.

Second of all, the jobs were "lost" as a result of the conviction. No one knows that the conviction wouldn't have taken place with better instructions. Convienant conjecture that makes "Courts" (your plural) look bad.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']WTF are you talking about? The bad instructions were what caused the conviction. The conviction that was overturned because of those bad instructions.

The conviction cost AA their accounting license, hence the layoff of 28,000 people. Like I said, many of them followed the clients they worked on to the remaining top 4 accounting firms, roughly 70% from what I remember. That still leaves 8,400 people that lost their jobs more or less because of bad instructions from the bench.

Of course the courts and judges had everything to do with this! What are you, stupid? Incapable of reading? It was the decision that came from this trial that led to AA not being able to continue as accountants. What more do you need to see that the courts screwed up and cost people their jobs and investors billions?

They inevitably would have lost clients because of the Enron image problem, they wouldn't have ceased to exist to the extent they are today.

The courts had everything to do with their demise, after Enron broke they laid off 5,000. Last I checked that's a hell of a lot less than 28,000.

I guess though my earlier statement was right. These were all Little Eichmanns that lost their jobs so there's no need to give a shit what happened.[/QUOTE]

At best you can say that the jury instructions may have caused the conviction and hence the need for it to go back to the lower court.

Why can't you see it was the corrupt people at the top in AA that are responsible for the company's demise and not a judge's instructions? AA's rep was already in the shitter before that judgment was rendered.

It's sad so many (presumably good) people lost their jobs, but you don't get to be unethical bastards above the law just because you employ a lot of people.
 
[quote name='usickenme']First of all, read up on the 28,000 jobs. AA ended the practice of auditing.
Second of all, the jobs were lost as a result of the conviction. No one knows that the conviction wouldn't have taken place with better instructions. Convienant conjecture that makes "Courts" (your plural) look bad.[/QUOTE]

Ah no, it was a conviction for the entire legal entity not just the auditing division. AA was for all intents and purposes put out of business, taking all 28K people with them.

Yes, there are a handful of people who still operate under the AA umbrella - which is of zero value to the 28K put out of work.

CTL
 
So CTL & PAD, tell me, would you guys support a new law that allowed employees to sue their employers who, by their own actions or ethical lapses, cause the loss of the company or jobs?
 
[quote name='Kayden']Then you should probably do more shutting up instead of asking foolish questions that were already answered.[/QUOTE]

God someones cranky today, bad day at work?
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']So CTL & PAD, tell me, would you guys support a new law that allowed employees to sue their employers who, by their own actions or ethical lapses, cause the loss of the company or jobs?[/QUOTE]

You can sue anyone for fraud. IE a shareholder can sue a company for waste/fraud.

I would support a law which requires Federal prosecutors to use common sense.

Oh wait, thats called intelligence.

CTL
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']So CTL & PAD, tell me, would you guys support a new law that allowed employees to sue their employers who, by their own actions or ethical lapses, cause the loss of the company or jobs?[/QUOTE]

In a case like this, if it were the template, there would be no assets worth collecting. It would be a pyrrhic victory. That would have been the case with Enron, Global Crossing and WorldCom as well.

WorldCom had something none of the other companies in the corporate scandals did not. An absolutely massive network and infrastructure. That's why despite it's stock price being as low as 5 cents its eventual merger was actually worth something. The physical assets and customer base were worth billions. You can't easily construct nationwide fiber and phone networks, data centers and internet backbones without a ton of regulatory approval from state, local and federal governments.

Once a company like Enron or AA goes they're done. There is little beyond office equipment and real estate. Their only true value was in their accounts receivable. Holding them accountable to employees is a nice idea but impossible.

Even then in a bakruptcy proceeding creditors and stockholders always have precedence over employees and that's never going to change.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']You can sue anyone for fraud. IE a shareholder can sue a company for waste/fraud.

I would support a law which requires Federal prosecutors to use common sense.

Oh wait, thats called intelligence.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Looks like that's a "no", huh?

And while we're blaming federal prosecutors, let's not forget that it's Bush's DOj that has bungled this.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']In a case like this, if it were the template, there would be no assets worth collecting. It would be a pyrrhic victory. That would have been the case with Enron, Global Crossing and WorldCom as well.

WorldCom had something none of the other companies in the corporate scandals did not. An absolutely massive network and infrastructure. That's why despite it's stock price being as low as 5 cents its eventual merger was actually worth something. The physical assets and customer base were worth billions. You can't easily construct nationwide fiber and phone networks, data centers and internet backbones without a ton of regulatory approval from state, local and federal governments.

Once a company like Enron or AA goes they're done. There is little beyond office equipment and real estate. Their only true value was in their accounts receivable. Holding them accountable to employees is a nice idea but impossible.

Even then in a bakruptcy proceeding creditors and stockholders always have precedence over employees and that's never going to change.[/QUOTE]

I don't mean allowing them to sue the company, I mean going directly after the CEOs personally. These CEOs aren't broke and homeless right now, are they?
 
I think I'll start a new thread...

When 285,000,000 People Have to Suffer for 8 Years Because of the Courts
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Ah no, it was a conviction for the entire legal entity not just the auditing division. AA was for all intents and purposes put out of business, taking all 28K people with them.

Yes, there are a handful of people who still operate under the AA umbrella - which is of zero value to the 28K put out of work.

CTL[/QUOTE]




Since when do you care about anyone who is out of work?
 
In the cases of Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco) and Bernie Ebbers (WorldCom) they're in jail. You're looking at people that maybe, maybe, have a few million. If you're going to attach their financial assets to a settlement with employees the amount payable to individual employees would be minscule.

WorldCom employed at least 100,000 employees, I don't know what their numbers were due to layoffs or what their current employee ranks are. Let's say though the courts attached $10 million in restitution payable to employees, you're looking at each employee getting $100. When it comes to employees the courts really don't give a flip. Creditors, bond holders and preferred stock holders all have more standing in the order of restitution.
 
I'd rather see these unethical bastards held personally responsible than not. If my boss ever screwed the entire company over like AA or Enron, I'd hate to think he was sitting on a multi-million dollar bank account while I was scrounging for a new job.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Since when do you care about anyone who is out of work?[/QUOTE]

I care about anyone out of work with marketable skills and wants to work. There's nothing more demoralizing to the human spirit in this country IMHO than being held out of gainful employment. It sucks to have talent, ability and drive and not be able to use it to the best of your ability.

Of course the mindset of the left in this country is that people with college degrees, professional licenses, white collar jobs or management experience aren't worth caring about. The only people they care about are blue collar union and government jobs that may vote for them. Anyone that can be labled "working class" is worth caring about.

Anyone that is successful, makes money must have cheated, stolen, benefitted unfairly and can be disposed of emotionally easier than a homeless person because they must be able to afford not working and because of their skills can easily find work if they wanted to.

[quote name='MrBadExample']I'd rather see these unethical bastards held personally responsible than not. If my boss ever screwed the entire company over like AA or Enron, I'd hate to think he was sitting on a multi-million dollar bank account while I was scrounging for a new job.[/QUOTE]

Regardless of what their bank account is or may be, they're in jail and it's worthless to them. The money and assets they have are going to be transferred to a trust, family and charities. If you can only spend $40 a month at the prison canteen, what good are millions to them.

Only one person at AA plead guilty and that's what brought down the organization from a legal standpoint. It's really quite mind boggling.

As an employee you're legally worth nothing. You have next to no rights and no recourse and in the end an LCD projector has more real world value than you do. I saw tens of thousands of people lose jobs here in the 80's when the domestic steel industry crashed, I saw friends of the family lose jobs, they have no standing.
 
PAD, my post was directed at CTL.

I have no doubt you care for professionals who are laid off...as long as those professionals aren't Muslims
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']Looks like that's a "no", huh?

And while we're blaming federal prosecutors, let's not forget that it's Bush's DOj that has bungled this.[/QUOTE]

Actually there are secret tapes that show Bush actually ordering the shredding of documents.

I have no problem with criticizing Bush.

The real question is can you find anything civil to say about him?

And that's the difference.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Actually there are secret tapes that show Bush actually ordering the shredding of documents.

I have no problem with criticizing Bush.

The real question is can you find anything civil to say about him?

And that's the difference.

CTL[/QUOTE]

I've always said I liked the "No-Call" list he put into effect. Other than that, I don't find much to applaud the guy for.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']I've always said I liked the "No-Call" list he put into effect. Other than that, I don't find much to applaud the guy for.[/QUOTE]

Yes only you wouild require Federal Legislation to avoid annoying phone calls.

www.junkbusters.com.

Those of us who are rugged individualists can do for ourselves, otherwise I guess I would need the government to help me.

CTL
 
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