When 28,000 People Lose Their Jobs Because of the Courts

[quote name='CTLesq']Yes only you wouild require Federal Legislation to avoid annoying phone calls.

www.junkbusters.com.

Those of us who are rugged individualists can do for ourselves, otherwise I guess I would need the government to help me.

CTL[/QUOTE]

See? You're not even happy when I give the chimp credit for something.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']See? You're not even happy when I give the chimp credit for something.[/QUOTE]

When you can suggest something serious we can discuss that.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']When you can suggest something serious we can discuss that.

CTL[/QUOTE]

I can't help it if he hasn't done ANYTHING serious that I approve of.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']I can't help it if he hasn't done ANYTHING serious that I approve of.[/QUOTE]

He didn't nuke afghanistan. With the people he surrounds himself with, that has to be worth something.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']No one has any issue with what happened to them.

You think some administrative assistant in Seattle deserved to lose her job over this?

Right MBE got to bring it back to the Bush administration don't you?

Pathetic.[/QUOTE]

As for the people who lost their jobs, they worked in a competitive business. Noone ever promised them cradle-to-grave employment, this ain't France.

You're really worried about white collar workers in this day and age??

Look at it this way - if the administrative assistant in Seattle becomes homeless, then it's one more person existing for your amusement (there may even be bonus kids if she's a single mom!)
 
[quote name='camoor']As for the people who lost their jobs, they worked in a competitive business. Noone ever promised them cradle-to-grave employment, this ain't France.[/quote]

And that is a fair point about no promises for lifetime employment. However, that presumes normal competition would eventually take your job/position away from you.

I think it is reasonable to point out that it is extraordianry that the government intervened and whacked 28,000 people's jobs.

[quote name='camoor']You're really worried about white collar workers in this day and age??[/quote]

We all worry about our own demographic. Just as many college kids on this board worry about things that effect their part of the pool, I worry about issues that would effect me.

[quote name='camoor']Look at it this way - if the administrative assistant in Seattle becomes homeless, then it's one more person existing for your amusement (there may even be bonus kids if she's a single mom!)[/QUOTE]

Let us prey.

CTL
 
CTL... aren't there any times you ponder just shutting the fuck up?
 
[quote name='TaurusKattLover']CTL... aren't there any times you ponder just shutting the fuck up?[/QUOTE]

:applause: :lol:
 
[quote name='TaurusKattLover']CTL... aren't there any times you ponder just shutting the fuck up?[/QUOTE]

Do you think I am worried about what you think of me?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Do you think I am worried about what you think of me?[/QUOTE]

Well, someone needs to think of you because retards like you are neither self aware or self-sufficient.

Would you want to starve, or swallow your tounge?
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Well, someone needs to think of you because retards like you are neither self aware or self-sufficient.

Would you want to starve, or swallow your tounge?[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes, I am the retard on this forum. Clearly.

Whats wrong Quack you can't respond to any of my points? I assure you that it hasn't gone unnoticed.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Do you think I am worried about what you think of me?[/QUOTE]

The musings of a sole stranger generally don't matter much. However, when the large majority of the people that read your posts pray you don't breed, I'd suggest an bit of self reflection.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Whats wrong Quack you can't respond to any of my points?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just had a "republican moment" back there.
 
This is HUGE for the area where the emplyees lived.
Car dealerships,Malls etc.. will have less customers because of this.
The economic implecations will be huge.
 
[quote name='Kayden']The musings of a sole stranger generally don't matter much. However, when the large majority of the people that read your posts pray you don't breed, I'd suggest an bit of self reflection.[/QUOTE]

Really? From people on the internet?

I do pitty you.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Really? From people on the internet?

I do pitty you.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Wow, I've apparently underestimated your density...

I'm pretty tempted to ignore you, but I'm just so curious as to what 'humanity's best' can come up with.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Wow, I've apparently underestimated your density...

I'm pretty tempted to ignore you, but I'm just so curious as to what 'humanity's best' can come up with.[/QUOTE]

Ah one more ignore promise/threat that just won't happen.

How odd.

Yet one more member of CAG's left makes a threat they fail to follow through on.

Its like having 17 UN Security Resolutions that all amount to "we are very, very angry with you."

Thanks Hans Brix.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Ah one more ignore promise/threat that just won't happen.

How odd.

Yet one more member of CAG's left makes a threat they fail to follow through on.

Its like having 17 UN Security Resolutions that all amount to "we are very, very angry with you."

Thanks Hans Brix.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Do you find it amusing that I want to see how dumb you can make yourself look?
 
[quote name='Kayden']Do you find it amusing that I want to see how dumb you can make yourself look?[/QUOTE]

And thats clearly what is happening here.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']And thats clearly what is happening here.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Wow... ... You remove any and all difficulty involved in making you look like an ass.
 
I know this "discussion" has degenerated into a flame factory, but you may want to check this out for another viewpoint.

http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2005/mft05060109.htm
...So when Andersen's PR guy characterized the court's decision as dispelling "an unjustified cloud over the professionalism and integrity of the people of Arthur Andersen," that's a bit of a stretch.

When he termed the shredding of 2 tons of documents on the eve of a subpoena a "routine business decision," it strained credibility.

And when Andersen's attorney asserted that the company and its employees "never intended to do anything wrong" and "certainly never intended to obstruct justice," well, that's what he's paid to say, of course. But saying it doesn't make it so. Put all that self-congratulatory verbiage together, and it amounts to little more than the verbal equivalent of a pile of stinky red herring.
Don't buy that fish.
http://www.fool.com/News/mft/2005/mft05060109.htm
 
CheapyD, that has more or less been my point the entire time.

It was a screwup on the part of the courts that caused the conviction and subsequent loss of AA's licenses to practice. I've never maintained they were innocent and there wouldn't have been heads that rolled, jailtime serverd, fines paid etc. What I will maintain is that had they had breathing space to cut a deal, admit to things, pay fines, whatever that was okay.

The Enron unit of AA employed about 5,000 that were laid off after they declared bankruptcy. The investigation should have centered on the core groups of executives and decision makers from that account team. Instead they ended up bringing down the entire company. That's a travesty. AA had been in business at least 100 years and a group of fuck ups render the company out of business?

It's one thing if they had died in the marketplace, if clients had fled in droves and they no longer had business sufficent to their continued existence. It's an entirely different matter for a screw up in jury instructions to result in sweeping convictions that put the company out of business and the subsequent OOOPS! rendered by the SCOTUS. Now there's no recourse for the company, what's left of it, stockholders or ex-employees to take against the legal system for this mistake.

I have no doubt the cost AA would have paid in lost business, legal fees and potential license revocation may have put them out of business. For it to happen on as a result of overturned jury instructions is unforgivable.

I'm not supporting their innocence, I'm furious at how it is they met their demise now that this decision came down.
 
The difficulty in identifying white-collar crime is a huge contributor to this problem (in terms of differentiating between intentional and unintentional behavior - did they shred docs to hide something, or was it truly company policy?). There's also the heirarchical matter (should you pursue the person who knowingly gave orders, the person who did the "grunt work," or both?).

It's a shame that this happened to AA; most of the 28,000 were likely innocent, at least in regards to Enron (and if what PAD says is correct, the maximum potentially behaving illegally was 5,000, leaving a minimum 23,000 innocents).

myke.
...those who hide their guilt or "plead the fifth" did their colleagues no favors either. They are just as responsible as the SCOTUS (as the cool kids call it).
 
Okay, AA was convicted in June 2002. Here's a timeline:

Immediately thereafter, as early as January 12, 2002, press and wire service reports stated that the document destruction episode could have done irreparable damage to the reputation and business of Arthur Andersen LLP.

As early as January 13, 2002, press and wire service reports stated that the document destruction episode was under investigation by Government agencies and Congressional committees.

As early as January 14, 2002, press and wire service reports raised questions about whether specific major Arthur Andersen LLP clients would take their business elsewhere as a result of the loss of credibility stemming from the document destruction episode.

By January 29, 2002, Arthur Andersen LLP acknowledged that it was losing business as a result of the document destruction episode.

By the first week of February 2002, Arthur Andersen LLP clients were either replacing it as their auditor or had publicly stated that they were considering doing so.

Ultimately, in early March 2002, Arthur Andersen LLP was indicted by the United States Government for obstruction of justice.

As soon as the indictment became public knowledge, Arthur Andersen LLP began a media campaign complaining that the Government had created 28,000 "victims," referring to employees who would lose their jobs. Arthur Andersen LLP thus knew by early March 2002 that mass layoffs were likely.

In addition, there were numerous media reports following the indictment that Arthur Andersen LLP was unlikely to survive or would have to eliminate numerous positions.

As a result of the revelation of the Enron audit problems, the document destruction episode, the indictment, and the belief on the part of many clients and commentators that Arthur Andersen LLP would not survive, the business of Arthur Andersen LLP was adversely impacted, and many large clients took their business elsewhere.

On information and belief, the document destruction was carried out by at least one partner of Arthur Andersen LLP and was a matter within the control of Arthur Andersen LLP.

On or about April 8, 2002, Arthur Andersen LLP terminated about 7,000 employees, including plaintiffs.
Click to expand...

So AA was done for even before they were indicted basically. It wasn't the judge's instructions that lead to massive layoffs, if anything it was the looming indictments from Bush's DOJ. I still hold AA management responsible for the downfall, but if you think they are completely innocent and unjustly persecuted, then it's Ashcroft's fault.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It's a shame that this happened to AA; most of the 28,000 were likely innocent, at least in regards to Enron (and if what PAD says is correct, the maximum potentially behaving illegally was 5,000, leaving a minimum 23,000 innocents).
[/QUOTE]

I don't know if we can assume that the other 23,000 were completely innocent.

Through the late-1990s, Andersen's name had figured prominently in various instances of business fraud by its clients, namely, Sunbeam, Waste Management Inc., Quest Communication, Global Crossing, and Baptist Foundation of Arizona. The firm faced civil charges for its supposed misrepresentation of accounts in most of these cases. The audit partners, who were involved in the audit of these companies were indicted and penalized by the SEC. In many of these cases, Andersen had settled investor claims, without acknowledging any fraud on its part (Refer Exhibit I for the settlements).
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I believe I said that they were innocent in the sense that they weren't working with Enron. I would not imply that I know, for a fact, that they weren't doing something similar with other companies.

myke.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to nitpick you, just pointing out that AA has had its share of scandals that didn't get the press that Enron did.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']I wasn't trying to nitpick you, just pointing out that AA has had its share of scandals that didn't get the press that Enron did.[/QUOTE]

I would presume that to be the case, given how swiftly some companies left AA after the SEC announced investigations (despite whether or not leaving would prove useful).

I thought my original sentence was a bit vague when writing it, so to misread it comes as no surprise to me.

myke.
...close friend to opacity.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Ignore quackzilla.

He kills kittens for fun.[/QUOTE]

Are we on a kindergarden playground?

Grow up.
 
Hey, I'm sorry that a childhood of torturing and killing small animals for fun has come to light this way. It's not my fault your parents neglected you and left you to re-runs of Full House instead of signing you up for Little League and youth soccer. It's not my fault that your dog disliked you to the point where your family had to put hot dogs in your pockets to get it to play with you. I'm sorry that the kids gave you wedgies at the bus stop, egged your bedroom window and you were picked last for teams because your hygeine was lacking.

All of that is still no excuse for you to have taken to shooting birds with BB guns, putting tree frogs in the microwave and killing kittens for fun. Your false belief system now won't make up for a childhood of misery.

Someday quack you may find a good psychiatrist to work out your feelings of angst and frustration. Hopefully he or she will put you on a good mood stabilizer to keep the razors out of your hands and from cutting your wrists. Until then this anger you share for this board really really is a loud cry for help and I'm here to help.

Jesus still loves you, you can be born again and perhaps your life, with medical and spiritual help, can be made whole as opposed to the fragmented pieces it is today.

I love you quackzilla and so does the Lord.

Don't you ever forget it.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']Okay, AA was convicted in June 2002. Here's a timeline:

So AA was done for even before they were indicted basically. It wasn't the judge's instructions that lead to massive layoffs, if anything it was the looming indictments from Bush's DOJ. I still hold AA management responsible for the downfall, but if you think they are completely innocent and unjustly persecuted, then it's Ashcroft's fault.[/QUOTE]

You are closer to the truth here than you might realize. However the death blow was the conviction as it became legally impossible for them to conduct business afterwards.

CTL
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Glad to know you could care less about the actions of a handful of employees rendering 28,000 jobless.

Your sensitivity is duly noted!

EDIT: Damn, I forgot. If you have a white collar job you're a Little Eichmann. Your job is only noble and worthy of protection and caring if you're a "working class" person emptying trash cans, cleaning toilets, vacuuming and mopping.

Sometimes I forget how jobs are valued in this country, I'm stupid that way.

[/QUOTE]

You mean like how the current administration has rendered over one hundered thousand jobless because of poor policies?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Hey, I'm sorry that a childhood of torturing and killing small animals for fun has come to light this way. It's not my fault your parents neglected you and left you to re-runs of Full House instead of signing you up for Little League and youth soccer. It's not my fault that your dog disliked you to the point where your family had to put hot dogs in your pockets to get it to play with you. I'm sorry that the kids gave you wedgies at the bus stop, egged your bedroom window and you were picked last for teams because your hygeine was lacking.

All of that is still no excuse for you to have taken to shooting birds with BB guns, putting tree frogs in the microwave and killing kittens for fun. Your false belief system now won't make up for a childhood of misery.

Someday quack you may find a good psychiatrist to work out your feelings of angst and frustration. Hopefully he or she will put you on a good mood stabilizer to keep the razors out of your hands and from cutting your wrists. Until then this anger you share for this board really really is a loud cry for help and I'm here to help.

Jesus still loves you, you can be born again and perhaps your life, with medical and spiritual help, can be made whole as opposed to the fragmented pieces it is today.

I love you quackzilla and so does the Lord.

Don't you ever forget it.[/QUOTE]

Damn, PAD, how many times do we have to tell you to keep taking your medication!
 
On the issue of 28,000 AA employees being "without a job," that is pure bullshit. I work for another of the big 4 (formerly 5) accounting firms and we snatched up thousands of AA employees (and their clients) as soon as the shit started hitting the fan.

The other big firms did the same. A majority of AA employees had jobs with former competitors within a week of this whole scandal.

So regardless of whether the "courts" caused AA to topple, most of them are gainfully employed at the moment.
 
You're not all wrong lebowsky, I did state earlier that thousands of AA workers went to the remaining big 4. There's no sense in creating new talent teams if you can move them intact from a failed competitor. As I said, I'm sure of the 28K of AA's employees at least 20k ended up going to the remaining Big 4 because of the teams they were on.

However the same can't be said for corporate HR, administrative staff, staff attorneys that worked on AA business as opposed to client business, marketing, PR etc. The issue is still the courts played at least a small majority of the factor that resulted in AA losing their licenses from this decision.

What also is not in dispute, and you cannot claim otherwise, is that billions in stockholder value was erased. So on top of the jobs people lost good chunks of pensions, 401k's and mutual funds and individual stockholders lost their entire stakes in the firm.
 
[quote name='lebowsky']On the issue of 28,000 AA employees being "without a job," that is pure bullshit. I work for another of the big 4 (formerly 5) accounting firms and we snatched up thousands of AA employees (and their clients) as soon as the shit started hitting the fan.[/quote]

My money says you work for D&T. How good was your raise in fiscal 03? You don't think it was down because of the people the firms grabbed up?

[quote name='lebowsky']The other big firms did the same. A majority of AA employees had jobs with former competitors within a week of this whole scandal.[/quote]

And how many of those AA employees are still working there? A massive number of them have moved after immediately or not too long after being hired by D&T, PwC, KPMG and E&Y.

[quote name='lebowsky']So regardless of whether the "courts" caused AA to topple, most of them are gainfully employed at the moment.[/QUOTE]

And since then there has been a glut in the accounting firms of extra people. To suggest that the job market within the Big 5 now 4 is comprable after the collapse of AA even 3 years after the fact compared to what the market was like in 1999 is wholly inaccurate.

CTL
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']What also is not in dispute, and you cannot claim otherwise, is that billions in stockholder value was erased. So on top of the jobs people lost good chunks of pensions, 401k's and mutual funds and individual stockholders lost their entire stakes in the firm.[/QUOTE]

The stockholder value was not erased, it was poisoned the minute AA began helping Enron cover up their crimes.

Do you have any numbers regarding how many AA people were left unemployed, or is this just speculation that a good portion could not get rehired?
 
No, I don't have any concrete numbers. I'm working on the assumption that 15-20% of their workforce was not hired by one of their remaining top 4 competitors. There are a number of people that just supported the firm that weren't involved directly with accounting, the clients or key enough to be hired to support those teams when the business moved elsewhere. You also have a certain percentage that because of age just decided to retire and not look for work at a remaining firm.

The stockholder value was diminished when the scandal broke, no ifs ands or buts. I don't have a historical track to gauge how much. However whatever value it did have was eliminated completely when their licenses were revoked.
 
You all also miss the point that when 28,000 people flooded the accounting profession that they screwed the people who currently were working in the field because (1) those other firms absorbed the former AA people - and had to pay them somehow. Maybe by not fully compensating the older employees? No! Money grows on trees! and (2) you treat people who may have worked at AA for YEARS with such a cavalier attitude - oh just get another job - its easy!

Yeah the 2002 economy was a cake walk.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']You all also miss the point that when 28,000 people flooded the accounting profession that they screwed the people who currently were working in the field because (1) those other firms absorbed the former AA people - and had to pay them somehow. Maybe by not fully compensating the older employees? No! Money grows on trees! and (2) you treat people who may have worked at AA for YEARS with such a cavalier attitude - oh just get another job - its easy!

Yeah the 2002 economy was a cake walk.

CTL[/QUOTE]

The other big accounting firms also added clients - the ones who fled AA. They didn't absorb the former AA employees out of the goodness of their heart. They knew there would be more work due to the influx of new clients.
 
Well, as long as there was still a demand for the full acounting workforce, the other 4 main companies and countless smaller sompanies had to expand their businesses to meet the demand, which theoretically would require almost all of the AA employees to be rehired.

And that was your free lesson in economics.
 
[quote name='CTLesq'](2) you treat people who may have worked at AA for YEARS with such a cavalier attitude - oh just get another job - its easy![/QUOTE]

Well, to be fair, there are many who regard the underclass with such a cavalier attitude - why don't these lazy bastards just get a job? It's so easy!

On the other hand, the AA employees have a much better arsenal with them when applying for a job - a previous employer with a reputation in the accounting field (both good and, in the end, bad), college degrees, postgraduate degrees, experience in customer relations (which indicates a proper capability to perform as a respectably deferential employee - Arlie Hochshield's "emotional labor," if you will).

So, while it may not be easy for AA employees to find subsequent work (although the surge of business for firms who picked up AA'a old clients might indicate that things weren't *so* bad), I would argue that it is remarkably easier for people with education, class, and work experience to find another job.

myke.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']You all also miss the point that when 28,000 people flooded the accounting profession that they screwed the people who currently were working in the field because (1) those other firms absorbed the former AA people - and had to pay them somehow. Maybe by not fully compensating the older employees? No! Money grows on trees! and (2) you treat people who may have worked at AA for YEARS with such a cavalier attitude - oh just get another job - its easy!

Yeah the 2002 economy was a cake walk.

CTL[/QUOTE]

Ladies and Gentleman, I present CTL as the newest socialist to join the CAG VS boards. Welcome, comrade!
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Well, as long as there was still a demand for the full acounting workforce, the other 4 main companies and countless smaller sompanies had to expand their businesses to meet the demand, which theoretically would require almost all of the AA employees to be rehired.

And that was your free lesson in economics.[/QUOTE]

MEOW MEOW MEOW!
 
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