When did people finally start realizing experience is more than just graphics?

zatos

CAGiversary!
I've been thinking about this a while and was just curious what everyone's inputs were. I am delighted by how well the DS and Wii are doing. I was pretty excited after I first heard Nintendo was using a remote sensor as a control. The possibilities! I did not think however it was going to be as successful as it is right now. When I look around at the trends, it seems that people are finally embracing new forms of game play, and graphics are not as much of a factor like they used to be. It just seems to me, that had the Wii come out about 5 years ago, I'm not sure it would be successful like it is now. Is it because graphics have finally achieved a point that even the worst graphics are still good enough to be enjoyable? Or is it the that the graphics game has gotten tired, and people realize they need more from their games than just them getting prettier? What are your thoughts?
 
Well, graphics are definitely important, but to me it's what you do with them rather than how realistic they are. Granted, alot of Wii games look like ass, but an arcade-y looking racer like Ridge Racer is definitely more appealing to me graphics wise than a more realistic and techinically better one than Project Gotham or Gran Turismo. While the realism "OMG" factor wears off a good art design won't... So graphics can be important, but it's what you do with them that decides that.
 
Graphics, while not everything, count for just a bit.
But I'd have to say that in the past few years I haven't seen to much of a trend in bad graphics at all.... except for he screens I've seen of PS2's upcoming "Raw Danger" (oh my god). It's been a steady stream of success in the graphics department. And I'll tell you, I predict that by the end of 2007 Nintendo Wii will be taking basically full advantage of it's graphic capability and showing people it's not what they thought it was.

But gameplay IS and always will be #1 when it comes to home console & computer games. Sure I can go get into a bran new car but I can't drive it if there's no steering wheel. It looks good, but goes nowhere. This is where classic gaming comes in. Games like Mario Bros, Sonic, Tetris, etc.... they all have the pick up and play factor that's easy to understand, & yet STILL to this day as good as they were on release. They don't have superb graphics, but they did what they did through the play of the game. That's what's making the Wii what it is today. It takes that same element from old games, and doesn't give it much new gameplay itself, but redefines the way we actually physically play the SAME type of addictive games.

:joystick:
 
[quote name='CosmosTheMouse']And I'll tell you, I predict that by the end of 2007 Nintendo Wii will be taking basically full advantage of it's graphic capability and showing people it's not what they thought it was.[/QUOTE]

Meh. Graphically, the Wii is what it is. You'll see some sharper graphics and games with greater overall polish, but I don't know how it could get a whole helluva lot better than what we've already seen. It will obviously never touch the 360 or the PS3 in terms of graphics, but it's good enough.

The Wii, will, however, shine in its own right due to cheaper development and retail costs and innovative controls. As with the DS, we'll see stuff for the Wii that can only be done on the Wii.

As the OP mentioned, we reached a point with the last gen where the graphics were satisfactory. Stuff like RE4, God of War, Shadow of the Collossus, LoZ: Wind Waker, Fable, etc., provided ample graphical pop over the PS1/N64 gen. I remember playing RE4 and thinking "I don't know how much better I want my games to look."
 
I figured this out in the 90's. The problem is that it is difficult to communicate good gameplay to the masses. Every commercial says "the most fun game ever". But graphics can actually be shown. A game can look fun by the graphics, but I don't know how you would demonstrate through marketing that gameplay is fun other than to maybe compare it to other games (which, again, is just as easily an empty promise because it cannot be tested until the person actually plays the game).

It's been very frustrating to me to see the gaming industry swing heavily towards graphics as a major focus (in my opinion, brought about largely by the floodgates opening through disc-based technology). I also am feeling a great amount of vindication with the success of the Wii and especially the DS because while each may be benefiting from the price difference as much as anything, by having their system in so many people's hands I think they are finally getting Nintendo's message out there that quality and inner beauty (gameplay/fun/etc.) trumps quantity and outer beauty (graphics) every time.

Hopefully as time passes people will begin to wake up to this truth. That being said, I am not entirely happy with the functionality of the Wiimote. I played Wario Ware for the first time tonight and it's not as tight as I had hoped. There were many times when I did the moves properly and got nothing in terms of a response on-screen (Yes, I'm at proper distance, height, etc.) and I digressed to just flailing the controller around - which also didn't work. I am hoping future games can tighten things up a bit.
 
I stopped caring about graphics a long time ago. Mega Man X4 and such show off how 3d+2d=superb. I will always prefer great 2d to decent 3d, especially with games like Dead Rising mixing and matching craptastic textures with some really great ones.

Framerate though does bother me. I don't know how I didn't notice the poor framerate Diddy Kong Racing for the n64 had until I played it yesterday. Makes me tempted to overclock one of the things.
 
Let me rephrase, yes the experience is more than just graphics, but it took a while to get to the point where the graphics could properly provide the experience.

Even now though, there are still games that execute much better due to graphics. Look at Gears of War for instance, the game is really fun graphics aside. When you add the graphics though, it really helps deliver the true experience.

Everyone who plays Gears for the first time thought to themselves "My this looks fucking amazing" and as they chainsaw the enemy and blood splatters on the screen "oh shit its fun too!"
 
[quote name='chosen1s']I figured this out in the 90's. The problem is that it is difficult to communicate good gameplay to the masses. Every commercial says "the most fun game ever". But graphics can actually be shown. A game can look fun by the graphics, but I don't know how you would demonstrate through marketing that gameplay is fun other than to maybe compare it to other games (which, again, is just as easily an empty promise because it cannot be tested until the person actually plays the game).

It's been very frustrating to me to see the gaming industry swing heavily towards graphics as a major focus (in my opinion, brought about largely by the floodgates opening through disc-based technology). I also am feeling a great amount of vindication with the success of the Wii and especially the DS because while each may be benefiting from the price difference as much as anything, by having their system in so many people's hands I think they are finally getting Nintendo's message out there that quality and inner beauty (gameplay/fun/etc.) trumps quantity and outer beauty (graphics) every time.

Hopefully as time passes people will begin to wake up to this truth. That being said, I am not entirely happy with the functionality of the Wiimote. I played Wario Ware for the first time tonight and it's not as tight as I had hoped. There were many times when I did the moves properly and got nothing in terms of a response on-screen (Yes, I'm at proper distance, height, etc.) and I digressed to just flailing the controller around - which also didn't work. I am hoping future games can tighten things up a bit.[/QUOTE]

Points taken. I actually thought maybe because of your point... the reason why graphics are not having as much of an impact. Perhaps maybe because forums and groups are being used much more now than before, people are actually creating their own buzz for games instead of tv/commercials/ads and such.

Also, yeah I think 3d helped start the whole graphics nonsense... dont get me wrong graphics are good... but I thought the ps1s graphics were pretty much terrible the whole life of the console, although they had gotten better by the end. The PS2 still wasnt perfect for me, but I think with the current consoles things can have enough detail that graphics are no longer a deciding factor.

I agree with some of the other points though... I think that some games do benefit from great graphics... Oblivion for one really hooked me with its graphics... for the most part games dont impress me much with graphics but I do like stylized games, like Okami... I'm still stinging from them shutting down Clover. :(
 
Mmmm.....experience is more than just graphics. Experience being more than just seeing, but hearing feeling, touching and reacting and interacting.

Brilliant. Brilliant and profound. Sounds like someone's fucking an ugly girl and is trying to justify it by telling us what a wonderfull personality she has...
 
[quote name='bmulligan']
Brilliant. Brilliant and profound. Sounds like someone's fucking an ugly girl and is trying to justify it by telling us what a wonderfull personality she has...[/QUOTE]

But she's REALLY good in bed...
 
[quote name='Scobie']Meh. Graphically, the Wii is what it is. You'll see some sharper graphics and games with greater overall polish, but I don't know how it could get a whole helluva lot better than what we've already seen. It will obviously never touch the 360 or the PS3 in terms of graphics, but it's good enough.

I remember playing RE4 and thinking "I don't know how much better I want my games to look."[/quote]



This is true, but look what you said about RE4.
I doubt anybody thought GC could pull that off and they did. And they did it damn well. While it's not PS3 or 360. Its going to have it's moments.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Mmmm.....experience is more than just graphics. Experience being more than just seeing, but hearing feeling, touching and reacting and interacting.

Brilliant. Brilliant and profound. Sounds like someone's fucking an ugly girl and is trying to justify it by telling us what a wonderfull personality she has...[/quote]

:lol:

Sounds like jealousy from a graphics whore who's having a hard time justifying the big sales and general mo' of the wii.
 
Whoa, whoa, slow down. We've yet to see a game engine that can faithfully render nose hair. Let's get that taken care of, and then we can talk about this so-called experience.
 
I think most people already knew it but became blinding by this HD/graphics carp from MS and Sony. Think about it, people still played NES/SNES/Genesis games even with all the newer systems out.

Don't get me wrong, HD gaming looks fantastic and makes some games more enjoyable due to the clarity. But graphics =\= fun.
 
When the systems that were graphics powerhouses cost $400-600.

That said, there are still a to nof posts, game reviewers, people in podcasts etc. knocking the Wii graphics, so it's not like the graphics whores have suddenly became extinct.
 
I'm not going to get into the whole graphics argument, but I have both a Wii and a 360 and I play my 360 probably at a 4:1 ratio when compared to my Wii.

Too many of the games right now seem either -
1. Gimmicky
2. A port with controls tacked on

I'm sure there will be some truly great games designed exclusively for the Wii, but right now it feels more like a toy than a game console. Hell, the most appealing aspect of the console right now for me is the VC.
 
Murphy, that's the result of one system having no library, at least to an extent. Since there's never going to be a point in time where the Wii and 360 have equal libraries in terms of quantity, you have to take that into account.

To the OP: Here's the deal. Graphics can be most readily understood by the average person. That's the end of it. We can run around in circles all we want about how awesome graphics do not generally translate into awesome gameplay experiences, but it's never going to overcome that first reaction that people have.

Looks are a lot. They are not everything. I think more people have come to understand this within the last 4 months than ever before, or at least the number of people who say that has certainly increased.

Point being is to not worry about it and just enjoy what you want to enjoy. We really can't get a usable conclusion to this sort of discussion. It's not because people are first and foremost graphics whores, it's because that's the easiest thing to relate to initially.
 
In my honest opinion... if the graphics are good enough so that you can tell whats going on then gameplay can make up for the lack in "uber3xtreemgrapix".:roll:
 
[quote name='camoor']:lol:

Sounds like jealousy from a graphics whore who's having a hard time justifying the big sales and general mo' of the wii.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am a whore, just not a graphics one.

I was really just trying to illustrate the banality of the topic and predictability of the responses. People decided gameplay took precedence over HD when they plunked down $300 for a Wii and a game. Topic over. Now we can dredge up the next inspid topic with mudpudle depth responses and wash ourselves in visceral masturbation.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Actually, I am a whore, just not a graphics one.

I was really just trying to illustrate the banality of the topic and predictability of the responses. People decided gameplay took precedence over HD when they plunked down $300 for a Wii and a game. Topic over. Now we can dredge up the next inspid topic with mudpudle depth responses and wash ourselves in visceral masturbation.[/QUOTE]

What makes the Wii have better gameplay than the Xbox 360 or PS3? Different controls=/=Better gameplay.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Actually, I am a whore, just not a graphics one.

I was really just trying to illustrate the banality of the topic and predictability of the responses. People decided gameplay took precedence over HD when they plunked down $300 for a Wii and a game. Topic over. Now we can dredge up the next inspid topic with mudpudle depth responses and wash ourselves in visceral masturbation.[/QUOTE]

That wasnt my point for starting the topic, however. I merely wanted to explore everyone else's thoughts on why graphics are not having the impact they once had, and how people are a lot more forgiving nowadays then they once were.
 
[quote name='zatos']I merely wanted to explore everyone else's thoughts on why graphics are not having the impact they once had, and how people are a lot more forgiving nowadays then they once were.[/QUOTE]

I don't think people are more forgiving. The media, reviewers etc. are constantly knocking the Wii's graphics.

The only people who are not knocking it for the most part is people posting in Wii forums, and these people are:

1. Nintendo fanboys who will defend anything they do.
2. Trying to make themselves feel good about their purchase.
3. Only have a Wii as they can't afford the others (or their parents won't buy it for them)
4. Maybe generally don't care much about graphics.


I LOVE the potential of the Wii, and playing Zelda leaves my mouth watering for some more substantive games that use the controls (enough with these lame ports and stupid mini-game collections)!

But I can't deny that the graphics are, and will continue to be, a dissapointment.

The innovative controls and fun makes up for it in the sense that the games will still be a blast to play and make the console worth playing.

But I dont' think one can go as far as to say that graphics don't matter as some in the thread have implied.

Games are definitely much more than the graphics, as the thread title implies and games like Zelda prove. But I can't say that I wasn't dissapointed after playing Gears in knowing that my Wii will never be able to remotely touch that kind of graphics as I'd love to have the best of both worlds and play Zelda etc. with that level of graphical detail.
 
When the hell did the two become mutually exclusive???

people decided gameplay took precedence over HD when they plunked down $300 for a Wii and a game. Topic over.

oh yeah :) but then if Nintendo announced an HD capable, up-to-spec Wii, it would be the next thing since sliced bread. but it would probably cost $599 or something.

That wasnt my point for starting the topic, however. I merely wanted to explore everyone else's thoughts on why graphics are not having the impact they once had, and how people are a lot more forgiving nowadays then they once were.

the lower end is passable these days. plain and simple...3D graphics have become fairly life-like. no longer do we have to deal with those weird, jaggie-as-hell PS1 graphics and 2D games look like cartoons.
 
[quote name='zatos']That wasnt my point for starting the topic, however. I merely wanted to explore everyone else's thoughts on why graphics are not having the impact they once had, and how people are a lot more forgiving nowadays then they once were.[/QUOTE] $599
 
[quote name='zatos']That wasnt my point for starting the topic, however. I merely wanted to explore everyone else's thoughts on why graphics are not having the impact they once had, and how people are a lot more forgiving nowadays then they once were.[/QUOTE]

Do youself a favor and be more observant because graphics have the same impact, and people are not more forgiving. Just look at all the Wii hatred from gamers AND DEVELOPERS simply because of the graphics. Hell, just skim through this very thread to see how people prefer pretty graphics over good gameplay.
 
My turn :}

First, understand that I am NOT a fanboy for any particular company. I've always made my choice on what console to buy based upon what it offered compared to the others. As such, I've NEVER owned the same company's console from one generation to the next (so far). And, I've based my purchases on what games I wanted to play, not just because they were "prettier" than the other company's graphics.

Okay, with that out of the way, I have to say (bluntly) than the biggest problem for the graphics side of things from the previous generation of consoles (XBOX, PS2, GC) to the "next gen" (at least the XBOX 360/PS3) is that there just wasn't THAT much difference between them. Stick with me a minute here. Consider the point that historically from one generation of consoles to the next you would not have been able to play the SAME game on the previous generation console as on the next gen one. However, with this generational jump (XBOX - 360, PS2 - PS3), you could STILL play some of the same games on the previous generation as the "next gen" system (button press for button press identical in some games). For example, just look at Kong on XBOX and XBOX 360, or any of the other titles that came out on previous and next gen systems that offered nothing more than graphical upgrades. That's not to say the "next gen" versions weren't "prettier", but, that was all they offered in the way of difference. And, for games that were sequals/etc. of previously released games, many of them came across as just "prettier" versions of the originals/previous ones that didn't really change things in the gameplay dept either (then again, how many sequals do...lol).

In any case, if "gameplay is the thing", then some people see/saw little point to make the "next gen" investment (based solely on graphics) when they could still play the SAME games on what they have now. There NEEDS to be a generational leap that cannot be made from the previous console to the next one (i.e. a "reason", beyond just graphics, for people to say they want/need/can justify the expense of making the jump). Each console NEEDS that one title (or several for some people), which cannot be played on the previous gen system, that makes gamers stand up, take notice and say they MUST own that game (and console it's on). While that type of game may be different for different types of gamers (think FPS vs RPG vs Sports fans/etc.), there still NEEDS to be those types of games offered so people have a reason (or can justify the expense) to buy a next gen console.

So, how does this fit in with the Nintendo wii, admittedly not the powerhouse in the graphics dept when compared to the XBOX 360 and PS3? Nintendo looked at what could be done graphically nowadays and realized that something ELSE needed to change. The WAY people play the games is something that hasn't changed in a good while. Sure, it was a risk, BUT, Nintendo realized that their competition would be fighting their next gen war on the graphics battleground. Rather than jump into that fight, they flanked em and focused on changing HOW people play...smart (even thou risky) move.

By not having to focus on such high priced tech for the graphics of their system, they were able to keep the price down. Again, another smart move in these economic times (which no matter WHAT the news/politicians keep trying to say, is NOT as good as they try to make it out to be...just look at home foreclosure rates for a clue on that one). In any case, Nintendo realized they could not (or didn't want to) duke it out on the graphics end of things and decided to use their GameBoy philosophy with their next console. Even if it's not as "advanced" as their competition, make it FUN to play at a "fair" (attainable) price.

As far as graphics go, and I know this is going to sound strange coming from someone who has done and now teaches graphics, I have to admit that I like/enjoy some of the older games graphics BETTER than some of these newer games coming out on the next gen systems (at least XBOX 360 and PS3). Sure, many of them do look very pretty. But, for all their attempts as making things look more realistic, they have (at least in some areas) gone overboard and reached a point of hyper-realism. Some of the graphics look SO sharp, that it appears as if they entire screen went thru a Photoshop sharpening and/or edge enhancement filter. While that's not EVERY next gen game, enough of them (at least many of the ones being used in stores to showcase the consoles) do have it that I've noticed it fairly often.

Another side effect of graphics getting more "realistic" (even occuring in the previous generation of consoles) is that sometimes things (enemies/objectives/points of interest/etc.) become harder to find within the game environments. This can become/lead to frustrating the game player when they are unable to locate something they are supposed to. An example of this I've seen in some games too often is when the player will have to "hunt" around for an enemy AI in the environment while that very enemy is able to "see" the player and is shooting/hitting/killing them. Now, while some games have designed this into the gameplay (trying to find an enemy that is sniping you/etc.), others achieve it thru the "realism" of the graphics (which was NOT an intent of the gameplay design). Unfortunately, in the later case, the game player can often be more frustrated than entertained by the challenge.

Another thing that popped into my head is looking back at the PC gaming market. While it did lose out to the console market (one reason being consoles started achieving near PC quality graphics at a fraction of the cost and frustration of dealing with drivers/hardware conflicts/etc.), there are some similarities. The PC gaming market started to reach a point where the emphasis for many was on having the BEST high end graphics/etc. hardware in their machine to see a game as PRETTY as it could be. However, in doing so, those people were basically forced into a constant upgrade cycle. That was fine for the hardcore that could afford it. But, for the majority of people out there, that was not an option (nor a desire either). Sure, they wanted better graphics too. But, if they couldn't afford the higher end tech, they would make due with what they could afford. This spilled over into what games they would play on their PCs as well. If their machine couldn't support (or play at a decent enough framerate) the higher end games, they stuck with the lower end ones that had GAMEPLAY they enjoyed. Just look at the success of the original Counter Strike. Not the prettiest game in the world, but it will run on a machine that is considered ancient by many today. In a similar way, the next gen consoles seem very focused on graphics. Sometimes they (console makers and game developers) are missing out on the fact that the GAMEPLAY will not only help the sales of their games, but sustain sales over the long term by attracting people that are not as impressed by graphics and just want fun gameplay (at a cheaper price).

These are just some of the reasons why I think people are starting to take a look more into HOW a game plays than just how pretty it looks. Then again, one study a few years back said that 65% of people made their game purchase decisions based on the screenshots of the game on the back of the box (shudder, lol). So, who knows?
 
graphics to me being a gamer, they're not as important as gameplay, they DO matter though, just not as much as a non gamer would think so. I've got plenty of friends who come over, or I take my 360 over and they get woo'ed by the graphics and think that the graphics are what makes the 360, the 360. : /

so yeah, graphics do play a big part, just not AS big as gameplay.. from a gamers view.
 
Having a similar discussion with some one on another board. He is totally blowing off the Wii because of the graphics. While I do :drool: over great graphics, if the game doesn't control worth a damn, might as well call it wallpaper.

I just don't see blowing off a system because of graphics. He did not even believe me about the GC being a little more powerful than the PS2. While I respect his opinion, I feel like he is missing out.

I know what I'm getting with each system. Picking up a 360 this week to enjoy more sweet looking and hopefully sweet controlling games. I will still put some time into the Wii. Along with the rest of the systems I have.
 
The Good:

360/PS3: Hoping extra power will result in new types of games.

Wii: Hoping new controls will result in new types of games.

The Bad:

360/PS3: $400 console that costs $50/yr to play online or a $600 console. Both with $60 games designed for $1000 TVs.

Wii: $250 for an overclocked GC with a new controller.

The Ugly:

360/PS3: Same games, but with prettier graphics.

Wii: Same games, but with new controls.
 
trip1ex,

That pretty much sums it up. I'm very underwhelmed with this generation of games. Little improvement over last gen withouth an HDTV on the 360/PS3 yet the prices jumped up to $400-$600, and with the Wii it jumped up to $250 when it's just basically and X-box with waggle.

I got the Wii at launch, waiting for a drop and some more games on the 360, PS3 is out of the question for the time being. My Wii has gathered dust since finishing Zelda as I have no desire to play lame minigame colletions and crappy ports.

PS2, DS and PC have been getting all the action lately.
 
The second part about the "Wow" factor, often overlooked, is the reciprical "Eww" factor. Go back a generation after playing a game in hd and you will notice the difference even more.
 
okay, that's it.

Graphics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gameplay. I hate gameplay. I don't even know why the PS3 and 360 come with controllers. they're just like....glorified remote controls or something. If devs would just do away with gameplay altogether, they could concentrate on what's important...the graphics.
 
Yeah I like trip1eX's summary as well. The new controller hasn't done anything yet. Also, adding more power to console's doesn't just make the graphics better. It allows the devolopers to make more expansive and interactive worlds. I play video games to take a break from the real world, and better graphics help with that. I still like Mario and Zelda, but Oblivion without its gigantic world where you can do anything you want couldn't be done nearly as well on the Wii.
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']If graphics > gameplay, we would all still be playing Dragon's Lair, Dragon's Lair II and Space Ace arcade games.[/QUOTE]


That's pretty much all I play. Those are the only good video games ever made....oh and can't forget the Time Traveller and Mad Dog McCree
 
The Wii has great potetial but the wiimote doesnt always make games more fun. I think zelda plays much better on the cube. Papermario was moved to the wii because of the lack of quality game.
 
"People" have always realized gameplay is more important than graphics. The only exceptions being when you want to show off or try out a new piece of hardware.
 
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