Who likes abortions?

I think this is one of those times where the graphic actually makes it more difficult to understand the data. Might just be the setup (longass and horizontal) or the pictures they chose to use rather than bars.
 
So, if I understood the graph correctly, California had the most democratic votes and the largest percentage of abortions.

Makes sense to me.
 
Looks like a population thing more to me. Look at where Texas is. And of course population density by itself can predict liberal/conservative. Your low population centers are going to tend conservative. The chart very nearly works without abortion at all and just red/blue vs population.
 
Well the raw number of abortions on the bottom half is pretty much useless analytically anyway. Obviously higher populations will have higher raw numbers just for that reason. The rates are better for comparison. And the red/blue thing is good for laughs I guess, but it's mostly irrelevant, especially when it's coded by the previous presidential election (I doubt the rate in FL changed dramatically from 2004 to 2008, but apparently now all Republicans have exchanged their abortions with Democrats).

I know that the rate per 1,000 live births is the normal comparison for abortions, but does that count miscarriages and stillbirths (they're not live, but they're not non-spontaneous abortions). If it does then it's better, but if it doesn't then I'd wonder why they'd use that rather than per total number of pregnancies, unless they just don't have those statistics.
 
Also, some states prevent abortions from occurring in their states by preventing PP from setting up shop by abusing the business and permit processes.
 
I would expect more democratic states to have more abortions. Pro-Choice is on the democratic platform, after all.

However, this trend is not complete without comparison, on a state-by-state basis, of teen pregnancies:

GFX_PR_090107teenbirthrates_fix.png


~HotShotX
 
[quote name='HotShotX']I would expect more democratic states to have more abortions. Pro-Choice is on the democratic platform, after all.

However, this trend is not complete without comparison, on a state-by-state basis, of teen pregnancies:

GFX_PR_090107teenbirthrates_fix.png


~HotShotX[/QUOTE]

that would only matter if teens were the only ones to get abortions, we all know thats not true. not only that, but many of those dark colored states have lower abortion rates.
 
RAM. You completely missed the point. The states with the highest rates of teen births have the lowest abortion rates.

I'd also say that sex education in those dark states is damn near medievil as compared to "blue" states. I had 6th grade sex ed in Fayetteville, Georgia and it was a couple hours of anatomy lessons followed by sex is bad. They showed some of the nastiest slides of untreated STDs you could imagine and then said, "Don't do it and you'll go to heaven."

Sex ed in Illinois actually had condoms and a discussion about other methods like diaphragms, IUDs, etc.

I think that map shows why those states are mired in the "intellectual elitists are bad" frame of mind.

If your parents never made it out of the 10th grade, there's a strong possibility you'll follow in their footsteps and you'll think education is for suckers. After all, I've got enough money to cover rent, buy cigarettes, and cheap alcohol. What more could anyone want in life?

Do you think conservative views on abortion help or hurt the 68.4 out of every thousand girls in Mississippi?

How about this then? Did easy access to abortion (and other options from planned parenthood like condoms) help or hurt the 50 teenage girls that didn't get pregnant in New Hampshire as compared to Mississippi?


Maybe you could just say that girls in blue states put out less than red girls but that's just me stirring the pot.
 
[quote name='HotShotX']I would expect more democratic states to have more abortions. Pro-Choice is on the democratic platform, after all.

However, this trend is not complete without comparison, on a state-by-state basis, of teen pregnancies:

GFX_PR_090107teenbirthrates_fix.png


~HotShotX[/QUOTE]

Interesting how it roughly corellates with education

www.uschamber.com/icw/reportcard/default
 
I once saw pictures of a very late term abortion where the doctor actually induces birth of the baby but since its head is too big to go through the vagina, he drills into the baby's head and sucks out its brain causing the head to collapse and an easy extraction.

I was like
89338-CVQWQ8X.gif
 
[quote name='depascal22']RAM. You completely missed the point. The states with the highest rates of teen births have the lowest abortion rates.

[/QUOTE]

no, you missed the point. the abortion rates are for all ages, not just teens. find abortion rates among pregnant teens, then you have something.

seems like the lighter color states and their fancy sex ed isnt working if they are just having more abortions.



edit: nevermind, dont want to get into it. deleted other rants.
 
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fuck

I heard that DC traffic was tied up because people were protesting outside the supreme court. I was pleasantly surprised because I assumed it was because they sold out to big corpo.

Turns out it was anti-choice rallies. The supreme court and surrounding area has seen a concentration of stupidity lately.
 
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

Table 3.1 on page 11 in that PDF has Teen Pregnancy, Birth and Abortion rates by state for 15-19 year olds in 2000, and gives the ranking of the state by each rate.

At a glance (by no means a scientific assessment), the trend seems to be that red states abortion rate rankings tend to be lower than their pregnancy rate ranking. While blue states tend to be ranked higher in aborting rates than pregnancy rates (or be ranked pretty similarly in both categories).

Mississippi is 3rd in teen pregnancy rates and 28th in abortion rates, Alabama is 15th in pregnancy rates, but 30th in abortion rates. Louisiana is 19th in pregnancy and 44th in abortions etc. So that kind of goes with the red states have high pregnancy rates and carry to term for moral reasons view (high pregnancy rate, lower abortion rate).

While you have a red state like Maryland that's 13th in teen pregnancy and 3rd in abortions, or New York which is 14th and 2nd--which kind of goes with the blue state girls get knocked up a lot too, and a lot more of them get abortions view.

But just at a glance of course. Don't have the time/interest to get the data into a spread sheet and run correlations etc. But would be interesting to code the states as red/blue/purple (if there's a agreed upon ranking somewhere), create a variable of ratio of teen abortions to teen pregnancies and see how the ratio differed by the red/blue categories.
 
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[quote name='Chuplayer']I once saw pictures of a very late term abortion where the doctor actually induces birth of the baby but since its head is too big to go through the vagina, he drills into the baby's head and sucks out its brain causing the head to collapse and an easy extraction.

I was like
89338-CVQWQ8X.gif
[/QUOTE]

I once saw a picture of some motorcyclist who crashed head first into a 18 wheeler and got stuck in the metal bumper.

Let's outlaw driving too
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

Table 3.1 on page 11 in that PDF has Teen Pregnancy, Birth and Abortion rates by state for 15-19 year olds in 2000, and gives the ranking of the state by each rate.

At a glance (by no means a scientific assessment), the trend seems to be that red states abortion rate rankings tend to be lower than their pregnancy rate ranking. While blue states tend to be ranked higher in aborting rates than pregnancy rates (or be ranked pretty similarly in both categories).

Mississippi is 3rd in teen pregnancy rates and 28th in abortion rates, Alabama is 15th in pregnancy rates, but 30th in abortion rates. Louisiana is 19th in pregnancy and 44th in abortions etc. So that kind of goes with the red states have high pregnancy rates and carry to term for moral reasons view (high pregnancy rate, lower abortion rate).

While you have a red state like Maryland that's 13th in teen pregnancy and 3rd in abortions, or New York which is 14th and 2nd--which kind of goes with the blue state girls get knocked up a lot too, and a lot more of them get abortions view.[/QUOTE]

maybe its just the south. other red states according to that table have low birth and low abortion rates. utah, north and south dakota, idaho, nebraska,
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']maybe its just the south. other red states according to that table have low birth and low abortion rates. utah, north and south dakota, idaho, nebraska,[/QUOTE]

Probably, and that's probably demographics.

If you look at table 1.0, the abortion rate (for all ages) for whites is 21.7, while for blacks it's 49.4.

So it's probably reflective of the southern red states having more poor, disadvantaged minority areas where unwanted pregnancies are higher.

Vs. the states you listed that are very white and have few urban centers etc. plagued by by concentrated disadvantage. Off the top of my head Salt Lake City is probably the largest city in those, and that's not a typical big city.
 
Just two observations.

The purple things remind me of dildos.

I figured there would be more abortions in the South since more of the fetuses' parents have so many common alleles.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Probably, and that's probably demographics.

If you look at table 1.0, the abortion rate (for all ages) for whites is 21.7, while for blacks it's 49.4.

So it's probably reflective of the southern red states having more poor, disadvantaged minority areas where unwanted pregnancies are higher.

Vs. the states you listed that are very white and have few urban centers etc. plagued by by concentrated disadvantage. Off the top of my head Salt Lake City is probably the largest city in those, and that's not a typical big city.[/QUOTE]

i think youre on the right track, but look at the hispanic numbers. they are closer to blacks on the pregnancy rates but closer to whites on the abortion rates. and id have a hard time holding a straight face telling someone that hispanics are generally well off economically.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Just two observations.

The purple things remind me of dildos.

[/QUOTE]

ditto
 
That's an awful looking chart.

I don't see much interesting in the rates shown (as others noted, raw numbers are largely unimportant, rates are where it's at).

What conclusions can we draw from this, really? If it truly means there are higher rates of abortions in blue states, then we understand that states with larger populations of people who support abortion rights have higher abortion rates, and states with larger populations who are against choice have fewer abortions?

That's hardly a revelation.
 
Something that some of you seem to be missing when talking about teen abortions and teen pregnancies...

You can't have a teen abortion without a teen pregnancy.
 
Yeah, the abortion rates/rankings aren't informative at all as it reflects the dominant ideology in the states pretty closely as expected.

I was a bit surprised that so many blue states were so high on teen pregnancy rate rankings. I have thought the southern states would have been more dominant in the top 10-15 than they are.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Something that some of you seem to be missing when talking about teen abortions and teen pregnancies...

You can't have a teen abortion without a teen pregnancy.[/QUOTE]

That's where education comes in. I'm serious about Georgia sex ed in the early 90s.

Anatomical picture of penis

Anatomical picture of a woman's pelvis

Several slides of untreated STD's

Small pamphlet that said NOTHING about contraception or anything else except for......abstinence

An hour later, we were done. The parental permission slip took longer to read and sign compared to the actual class.
 
Yeah, but that's why the pregnancy rate rankings surprised me. There's plenty of blue states that presumably have better sex ed that still are very high in the rankings.

I think a lot of the problem is even in those states they may give more specific education, but they're still not making condoms, birth control pills etc. readily accessible.

It was embarassing as hell buying condoms back in high school and even college (especially growing up in a rural state like WV) and getting the dirty looks from the old lady at the check out etc.

As such, I wonder what percentage of teen preganancies result to some degree from kids who know all about safe sex, but decide to take a chance vs. going through the embarrassment of buying condoms, getting birth control pills (if they even can without parents consent) etc. Which could be remedied by having condoms available discreetly in the school or other public places, having the health clinic be able to prescribe birth control to 16 and 17 year olds without parental consent etc.
 
[quote name='moon_knight']I think more parents should talk to their children about sex instead of relying on the schools.[/QUOTE]

I don't see why you can't do both, parents aren't all doctors and don't necessarily have all the information they need. So give that information in school and the parents can give their kids whatever information they want to about morals or whatever. Sex ed in school doesn't prevent parents from talking to their kids, so a good sex ed program isn't a bad thing.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, but that's why the pregnancy rate rankings surprised me. There's plenty of blue states that presumably have better sex ed that still are very high in the rankings.
[/QUOTE]

this. the pregnancy and abortion rates in blue/progressive states are just as high, if not higher, than those backwards red states.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I don't see why you can't do both, parents aren't all doctors and don't necessarily have all the information they need. So give that information in school and the parents can give their kids whatever information they want to about morals or whatever. Sex ed in school doesn't prevent parents from talking to their kids, so a good sex ed program isn't a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't do both. When I had sex ed I had asked some friends if their parents had taught them anything about sex and they said no.
 
[quote name='moon_knight']I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't do both. When I had sex ed I had asked some friends if their parents had taught them anything about sex and they said no.[/QUOTE]

Then yeah, I agree that parents should probably talk to their kids more in general anyway. It's just an uncomfortable subject, so it's hard for most parents to go there.

What I don't agree with is that parents should and nobody else, which is usually how conservative/religiously-motivated people seem to frame it, while attempting to dismantle current programs. They seem to think that nobody's gonna fuck if they're not told what condoms do.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']It was embarassing as hell buying condoms back in high school and even college [/QUOTE]
I've always bought my condoms with pride. What better way to show the world that you're gettin' some.
 
What's all this about being too scared to buy condoms? In this area, at least, seventy-five cents and a gas station bathroom will net you a condom any day...
 
There were a couple places that had one of those machines in the bathroom, but it was replaced while I was in high school with a machine that just sold aspirin and some other random crap. So the only option was to buy them in a store.

I vaguely recall that there was some city ordinance passed banning the sale of condoms in vending machines, but I wasn't of an age to pay that much attention to news (especially local, small town news) at the time so it's a very vague recollection.
 
In a ideal world you wouldn't need abortions because everyone would be responsible enough not to have children they don't want, or at least we'd have a lot fewer once you factor in the people who get them for medical reasons. Sadly we do not live in this perfect world.

From a moral perspective, i find abortions to be abbhorant, and would never elect to agree to one under any circumstance short of my girlfriend dying if she has the kid. Late term abortions are particularly disturbing, and I hesitate to wonder why anyone at all would agree with them short of medical reasons. My morals however are not everyones morals, and I can begrudgingly accept the fact that its far cheaper for society to allow people who don't want to have kids to get an abortion, then it is to force them to have kids who will inevitably end up becoming wards of the state.

I honestly don't feel it is the schools job to teach sex education in the first place, but again this is an idealistic perspective as many people that need it the most come from broken or abandoned homes and simply won't get it elsewhere. I think the best route is a combination of absitnence education along with safe practices. I do feel though that the idea of providing students with protection such as condoms within a school setting is outrageous, and shouldn't be done.

As for the high rates of teen pregnancies and abortions, I'm not so sure abstinence only education, or a social stigma about birth control is entirely to blame. My guess would be, like anything else, that a significant portion of the population, probably between 20 and 30 percent, will still have unprotected sex, and still get pregnant with unwanted children regardless of their education or even if you provide them with the protection they need.
 
I don't see where you guys are saying that there are some surprising blue states on that teen birth chart. The darkest states are all southern red states and the next stage down are all states that tend to run red. North Carolina and Indiana might have gone blue in the last presidential election but let's not pretend that those states don't trend conservative on a majority of issues.
 
Look at the pregnancy rate rankings on that chart in the PDF I posted (not the map).

Nevada is 1st. California is 7th. Delaware is 11th. Maryland is 13th. New York is 14th. New Jersey is 16th.

Those just struck me as a bit surprising. But I guess it shouldn't be since teen pregnancy is particular a huge problem in poor urban areas. And more of the largest urban areas are in blue states.
 
I'm not too sure what I think about associating higher abortion rates w/ higher teen pregnancy rates. Adults have (surely the majority of) abortions and states vary strongly in how their laws restrict or permit teens to terminate their pregnancies.
 
[quote name='spmahn']In a ideal world you wouldn't need abortions because everyone would be responsible enough not to have children they don't want, or at least we'd have a lot fewer once you factor in the people who get them for medical reasons. Sadly we do not live in this perfect world.[/quote]

I don't think there's anybody (who isn't crazy) who actually wants more abortions just for the sake of having abortions. They all essentially feel that same way - they think it would be nice if abortions didn't happen, but they're necessary for various reasons. And of course the perfect world would require more than everyone just "being responsible" since plenty of people are, but still end up with unwanted pregnancies. Unless "being responsible" only means having sex when you specifically want a child. In which case you'd need a perfect world to kill everyone's sex drive.

[quote name='spmahn']From a moral perspective, i find abortions to be abbhorant, and would never elect to agree to one under any circumstance short of my girlfriend dying if she has the kid. [/quote]

Well unless you're capable of giving birth to a child it would never really be your decision.

[quote name='spmahn']Late term abortions are particularly disturbing, and I hesitate to wonder why anyone at all would agree with them short of medical reasons.[/quote]

That would be pretty much the only reason they do happen, the vast majority of abortions are done way before then.

[quote name='spmahn']I honestly don't feel it is the schools job to teach sex education in the first place, but again this is an idealistic perspective as many people that need it the most come from broken or abandoned homes and simply won't get it elsewhere.[/quote]

It's more than broken or abandoned homes. It's not just a small minority that wouldn't get proper sex education outside of school.

[quote name='spmahn']I think the best route is a combination of absitnence education along with safe practices.[/quote]

That's usually how it works. Aside from anatomy and medical information about STDs it's just telling kids that not doing it is the only way to avoid infections and pregnancies 100%, but otherwise there are safer ways of doing it.

[quote name='spmahn']I do feel though that the idea of providing students with protection such as condoms within a school setting is outrageous, and shouldn't be done.[/quote]

Why? That's giving them a safer and more responsible option.

[quote name='spmahn']As for the high rates of teen pregnancies and abortions, I'm not so sure abstinence only education, or a social stigma about birth control is entirely to blame.[/quote]

I wouldn't think so either.

[quote name='spmahn']My guess would be, like anything else, that a significant portion of the population, probably between 20 and 30 percent, will still have unprotected sex, and still get pregnant with unwanted children regardless of their education or even if you provide them with the protection they need.[/QUOTE]

I think 20-30% is probably pretty high for the particular situation you're addressing. In any case there will be fewer people having unprotected sex if they're educated about having protected sex than if they're not.
 
[quote name='spmahn']From a moral perspective, i find abortions to be abbhorant, and would never elect to agree to one under any circumstance short of my girlfriend dying if she has the kid. Late term abortions are particularly disturbing, and I hesitate to wonder why anyone at all would agree with them short of medical reasons. My morals however are not everyones morals, and I can begrudgingly accept the fact that its far cheaper for society to allow people who don't want to have kids to get an abortion, then it is to force them to have kids who will inevitably end up becoming wards of the state.[/QUOTE]

This is an illogical position, unless by "abhorrent" you mean something less than "murder," in which case perhaps you can clarify. If it's not murder, then what makes it abhorrent to you? If it is murder, why are you reluctant to stand up and say murder is wrong under any circumstance and that we're talking about more than one person in the case of abortion?
 
Why must it be abstinence? I understand the idea, but I can't help but believe abstinence-only education is fueled by a fear of teaching children about how awesome sex is (which is mostly us lying to ourselves, because children know bloody well how awesome it is).

There's no difference in terms of pregnancy between abstinence and all-anal, or a mix of that and oral/mutual masturbation. Your lesson plan will never tell you that doin' it in the butt won't get anybody pregnant, and that's something the abstinence folks refuse to talk about.

If kids are going to experiment with sex (and they are), why not encourage forms that reduce the likelihood of pregnancy, and inform them in a way that reduces infection? Abstinence is a red herring, despite the semblance of merit that it carries in its baggage.

Abstinence has created as many children as blowjobs have. Quiz on Friday.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm not too sure what I think about associating higher abortion rates w/ higher teen pregnancy rates. Adults have (surely the majority of) abortions and states vary strongly in how their laws restrict or permit teens to terminate their pregnancies.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I wasn't really trying to make an association there. Teen abortions aren't driving the rates.

But it does look like--at a glance anyway--that there's a bigger gap between teen pregnancy rates and teen birthrates in blue states with higher abortion rates.

So teens in blue states do have more abortions than those in red states--but that's just common sense. Of course pregnant teens in blue states who are more likely to have pro choice parents, and will have more options for where to go for abortions, less stigma about getting one etc., will get more abortions.

Again it was only the teen pregnancy rates in a few blue states that surprised me a little. All the abortion rate stuff just follows common sense.
 
I think we should start up the all-anal-oral-masturbation sex education classes (and include abstinence, of course). Honestly, IMO, a decent blowjob is better than sex. Maybe not really good sex, but normal everyday sex. And of course there should always be reciprocation. They should really be encouraging the children to perfect their skills early!
 
Yeah, the fact is really that teens need to be given all the information.

Tell them how pregnancy works. Tell them all about STDs. Tell them the only safe way to prevent pregnancies and STDs is to abstain.

But then give them all the info on safer ways to have sex. How contraceptives work (and that Condoms don't prevent all STDs, that the pill has no effect on STDs etc.), what the risk of pregnancy is. Talk about anal and oral sex as it relates to pregnancy and STDs

Kids are going to have sex. Sex is one of the few pleasures of life, and one of the very few that you can do without shelling out cash (well other than condoms, the pill, money on dating etc.). Spend money going to dinner and the movies? Or stay in and have sex? :D

It's just counter-intuitive and ignorant of human nature to think we can just scare kids off from sex, and that trying to do so doesn't lead to more problems with pregnancy and STD vs. giving them the scare talk but also giving them all the info to make informed decisions.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Look at the pregnancy rate rankings on that chart in the PDF I posted (not the map).

Nevada is 1st. California is 7th. Delaware is 11th. Maryland is 13th. New York is 14th. New Jersey is 16th.

Those just struck me as a bit surprising. But I guess it shouldn't be since teen pregnancy is particular a huge problem in poor urban areas. And more of the largest urban areas are in blue states.[/QUOTE]

But Nevada isn't a true blue state. Just because Harry Reid comes from the state doesn't make everything about it liberal. Their other Senator is a Republican. 2 out of 3 Congressman are Republicans. The governor is a Republican. I'd say the state tends conservative, wouldn't you?

Indiana has a Democratic senator (Evan Bayh) but the state still runs conservative on most issues especially the environment.

From your pdf, dmaul:

By contrast, teenagers in Utah, Kentucky, South Dakota and North Dakota had the lowest
abortion rates. These states also had fewer than 17% of teenage pregnancies end in
abortion: South Dakota, Utah and Kentucky.

In 2000, teenage birthrates were highest in Mississippi, Texas, Arizona, Arkansas and
New Mexico. The states with the lowest teenage birthrates were New Hampshire,
Vermont, Massachusetts, North Dakota and Maine

Other than North Dakota, I'd say these follow political trends.
 
Sure, but it's not a southern conservative state by any stretch of the imagination either. And the other states I listed are true blue states.

Teen pregnancy isn't just a problem in poor, rural areas in the south. It's also a huge problem in poor, inner city areas. So it's an issue that doesn't follow red/blue ideological lines. It's a problem across our society. Pretty much a lower class problem regardless of political beliefs.
 
I can agree with that but the state you live in makes a huge difference in the perceptions and options you have when you get pregnant. There's a difference in being 15 and pregnant in Mississippi and New Hampshire.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I can agree with that but the state you live in makes a huge difference in the perceptions and options you have when you get pregnant. There's a difference in being 15 and pregnant in Mississippi and New Hampshire.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Like I said above, it's all common sense.

If a teen's living in concentrated disadvantage (poor neighorhood, broken home, poor school system etc. etc.) are going to be more likely to get pregnant.

If they're in a conservative state they'll be more likely to carry to term. If they're in a blue state they'll be more likely to get an abortion as you have more options, less stigma, more likely to have pro choice parents etc.

I was mainly just surprised that some blue states were so high in the pregnancy rate rankings (but even that makes sense when you consider urbanity). The abortion rates make perfect common sense.

The pregnancy rankings don't fit the hyperbole that liberal states have better sex ed and thus lower teen pregnancy rates. Some of the lowest rates are in rural, sparsely populated states like the Dakotas which are red states.

So it seems that ideology has little to do with pregnancy rates. That's more a function of structural factors. States with more dense populations, and more disadvantaged areas will have higher pregnancy rates regardless of whether it's a red or blue states.

While abortion rates ,of course, do follow ideological lines being lower in Red states (even with high pregnancy rates) and higher in blue states.
 
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[quote name='SpazX']I don't think there's anybody (who isn't crazy) who actually wants more abortions just for the sake of having abortions. They all essentially feel that same way - they think it would be nice if abortions didn't happen, but they're necessary for various reasons. And of course the perfect world would require more than everyone just "being responsible" since plenty of people are, but still end up with unwanted pregnancies. Unless "being responsible" only means having sex when you specifically want a child. In which case you'd need a perfect world to kill everyone's sex drive.[/QUOTE]

Plenty of people go their entire lives without ever having sex, or at least keeping it a bare minimum, usually particularly religious folk like Clergy, The Amish, or even people who for whatever reason can't or don't have sex, people with medical issues, those who are unattractive or have some sort of crippling social problems that make it difficult if not impossible to find a mate, etc. I don't buy the "sex drive" argument at all, there's plenty of people who don't have sex.




[quote name='SpazX']Why? That's giving them a safer and more responsible option.[/QUOTE]

It's not the schools place to have out condoms any more than it is their place to hand out bibles.
 
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