Who watched Bush's speech last night?

I think that a president should have to make his own speeches, like in the days before Nixon. It shows intelligence, and leadership abilities, to the likes of which our President lacks. Abraham Lincoln wrote his most famous address in a carriage ride.
 
At least he's smart enough to know that the viewing public would rather watch the regularly scheduled programming. :)
 
I switched channels after the “we must find innovative and environmentally sensitive ways to make the most of our [blah blah blah] clean nukaler power” bit. It's really hard to take that shite seriously, given the administration's denial of the Kyoto Protocol.

That man just gets harder and harder to watch!
 
I seldom watch Presidential speeches. I didn't watch President Bush Sr.(other than the Gulf War), I didn't watch President Clinton (other than his Lewinsky speech...:roll: ), and I didn't watch our current President (other than 9/11 obviously). It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with the fact that speeches are just not informative anymore. I agree that Presidents should write their own speeches. Watching generalized statements over and over from a team of writers is boring.
 
It seemed kind of strangely uninformative for a seemingly hastily-called press conference. He didn't really offer that much new information. This was just an attempt to stop his poll numbers freefall. I'm surprised he took reporters' questions since he's still very bad at extemporaneous speaking. I was hoping one of them would ask where Jeff Gannon was. :)

I liked how CBS cut him off early so they could show Survivor at 9:00. Screw the President - it's almost May Sweeps!! Damn liberal media... :)
 
I listened to 60% of the speached on radio while driving from the Gym and 30% on TV after I got home and I must say that I have to disagree with your assertion. I think he made some interesting concessions and comments. I noticed that he was intentionally amplifying his Texas accent during then press briefing.

I was disappointed at the lack of humor until the end. I liked the question by one reporter asking if President Bush felt responsible for helping create the partisan atmosphere in Washington. And Bush gave some boring, rote answer. Now if I was standing there, and was in the same position, I would have started by joking, "Well, of course it's not my fault. Everybody knows I'm perfect!" which probably would have got a chuckle before I moved on to a serious answer.

It's funny, for a press conference that he himself called, he didn't seem enthused to be there. But he muddled through.

I read an interesting article today dn people say that he isn't smart or not highbrow. It cannot be questioned that his communication skills are awful. But do not confuse that with his intelligence. He is a clear highbrow idealog in the tradition of conservative think tanks like the CATO Institute and the Heritage Foundation. I've always thought that but it was well articulated in a column in the Washington Post today by E.J. Dionne.

"The notion of Bush as an egghead no doubt appalls conservatives, too. People on the right have long savored attacking their opponents as 'pointy-headed intellectuals' -- the late George Wallace's phrase was widely popular. Spiro T. Agnew, Richard Nixon's vice president, had perfect right-wing pitch when he assailed his boss's opponents as an 'effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals.' That dismissive phrase -- 'who characterize themselves as intellectuals' -- was nothing short of brilliant.

"But with apologies to both sides, the case for Bush as an egghead is overwhelming. One of the central characteristics of the Bush presidency is a profound commitment to theoretical notions, nurtured in think tanks and ideological magazines, and a relentless -- yes, even principled -- commitment to pushing them regardless of the facts or the consequences.

"The president's proposal for private accounts in Social Security is Exhibit A for eggheadism. There was little popular demand for these accounts. Most Americans like Social Security as it is. The private accounts idea was nurtured primarily in libertarian and conservative research organizations such as the Cato Institute, the National Center for Policy Analysis and the Heritage Foundation."

And I think this is absolutely true, and my major problem as a republican in the Republican party. The Republican party supports theories that have very little support in fact, because they're based on idology and not real world empirical evidence.

Let me give an example. Supply Side economics is voodoo. It runs counter to real economic principles. Let me put it this way, Supply Side economics is one step away from Communism, and since the entire economic theory of the Republican Platform is based on Supply Side Theory, it's a bitter irony to me that the Republican party which fought communism is sliding intio supporting communist theories.

See, I'm a Keynesian, because Maynard Keynes was able to develop the basic understanding of modern economics in Caitalist systems. It was his concepts that saved capitalism and ended the Depression. And his theories can be applied in a reasonable fashion to economics today. (Consideruing that economics is a Biologicl entity and as unpredictable as such entities are wont to be.) But because it was a Democrat that embraced Keynes Republicans and conservatives have hated the basic facts that Keynes was right. It's like Someone hating Galileo and Copernicus for showing the the earth revolves around the sun. and that hatred has devloped over time into the basic Conservative Economic Supply Side Theory.

And Supply Side economics was cemented by two events in the Regan Era. The Tax Cuts and the Debt issue. See, both worked when some economists of more tradional and Keynedian concepts said they wouldn't. And Supply Siders took that as vindication of their beliefs. But they're wrong ebcause they don't understand the underlying principles.

Take the Tax Cut. One basic tenent of economic growth is through job creation and the biggest way to create jobs is through goverment probgrams. Which causes goverment to grow. That's a Kensian View, but that's not the sole part of Keynsian theory. It's actually quite complex. During the end of the seventies, the problem with the economy wasn't job growth. It was inflation. And according to Keynsian theory the best way to combat inflation is through an influx of capital to the masses to counter out the inflationary effect. That's EXACTLY what Reagan did. He had an instinctual understanding of economic policies. Even though he didn't understand why it worked or that it followed Keynsian models.

Even though everything Regan did performed exactly as Keynsian ideas, it was seen by Supply Siders as disproving Keynesian theory. One, because the economy started humming along without job growth and goverment intervention which to be honest is the part of Keynsian economic theory most everyone knows and talks about because it was the hallmark of the New Deal. And Two, because it fell in line with their own theries that Tax cuts are always good and the trickle down effect. Even though trickle down is inherently a communist economic theory and runs counter to capitalism.

The second major blow was I think the one that relly hurt Keynesian theory and has put us in our mess today. At the time Reagan was cutting taxes he was putting our cuntry in what seemed at the time, massive debt. Again, Reagan instinctually understood that the country could bear the debt,l as long as it gets repaid eventuallly. But to many Keynsians it was disaster. The very idea of the goverment getting into debt greater than it's actual revenue was anathema. Debt is something to be avloided because taking on unecessary debt hurts you wehn you really need it. But Reagan was accurate in assessing that the economy had to take on debt to curb inflation.

Now, Keynsians hated the debt because they saw it grow and grow and thought the economy couldn't bear any more. They were wrong. The reason being, is they didn't understand how much debt an economy can bear. Our debt today is massive, and needs to be paid down. I think it's 75% of our economy. The thing is, some major Europeon economies got into debt up to 200% of GDP! One of the many reasons for their slow growth. So we're no where near the "sky is falling" factor even today. But it is a weight around the economy and should be lightened. Also, we're loosing our emergency cushin for when we really need to go into debt. (Say another inflationary period or a major war or something.)

Alternatively, Supply Siders claim that we'll grow out of the debt. That's we're their wrong. See, Supply siders promote a growth at all cost method of economics. And there's some value to that,, because all economic policies should foster growth. Growth is what brings people out of poverty. Growths is what imprves our standards of living. The problem is, Growth at all cost is irresponsible. And Growth can;t be directly control. A Supply Sider can't wave his wand and poof, we're going to grow in the next five years. There are a lot of factors. And because of that, we're piling on debt after debt after debt, and the Supply Sider says, we'll grow out of it, but we never grow out of it fast enough and they pile on even more debt so we grow fatster. It becomes a vicious cycle. You take on more debt to improve your infrastructure to grow faster, but it's never fast enough to cover the enormous debt you've compiled, so you need to grow even faster, so you take on more debt! It's like living a $100,000 lifestyle in your twenties assuming you'll make that much in your fifties.

I mean, people talk about a Ponzi scheme, but I digress.

Anyway, the suply siders said we'll grow out of debt, but that just isn't happening and it isn't realistic. So they were wrong in their belief that the debt is managble under their principles. But because Keynsians were yelling, "The sky is falling" and then it didn't fall, Supply siders took that as proof of validation of their theories. Even though, the debt problem can onkly be solve by, you guessed it, Keynsian economic models of reasonable growth and slow paying down of the debt.

The thing is, none of this conservative ideology, and it is ideology without realy critical examination, is based on the real world. It's build up in think tanks made to promote conservative theories. It may sound great but Communism is also the most perfect form of goverment on paper. And that's the problem with the party today. The party develops and ideology, it then develops a system to support that ideology not based on any facts or critical examination. Hence you get think tanks like the CATO Institution or the Heritage Foundation. In other words, the ideology develops the facts, not the facts developing the ideology.

And you have to understand that the Bushes are absolute intellectuals when it comes to this ideology. They probably understand it as well as anyone on the planet. So it's not that the President is unintelligent or stupid. It's just that the focus of his energies and intellects is wholly on these ideological principles.

Here's another prefect example from Allan Sloan on the Presidents Tax Reform Committee.

"A case in point: the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform created by George W. Bush in January. You'd like to believe that this commission, which is currently holding hearings and plans to file a report by July, will offer ways to make the tax system less unfair than the mess we've currently got. But look out. If you decode Bush's executive order creating the commission -- it's on the commission's Web site, www.taxreformpanel.gov -- you can pretty much guess what the panel will propose. It's not going to design a tax return that you can fill out without software or a master's degree in taxation. Rather, it seems all but certain to lend Bush's existing agenda the imprimatur of the word reform.

"Why am I so skeptical -- some would say cynical -- about the tax 'reform' commission, which has respectable members? Because I've seen the results of a similar outfit, Bush's Commission to Strengthen Social Security. Rather than asking that commission to pick the best possible Social Security system, Bush required it to advocate for private accounts and to avoid increasing Social Security taxes. This meant that the commission was predestined to propose sharp cuts in future benefits, and massive borrowing to fund private accounts.

"The report languished for years -- it came out in December 2001, after the Sept. 11 attacks had rocked the country and Enron's bankruptcy had discredited the stock market. Bush dusted it off after last year's election and declared it the starting point for Social Security 'reform.' But its conclusions, of course, had been pretty much determined by the conditions that Bush imposed on it.

"Now, let's look at Bush's tax 'reform' commission. Instead of letting the commission propose the best possible tax system, Bush has hemmed it in. It has been ordered to make investments more attractive -- as if investment income weren't already favored enough. It's supposed to keep homeownership and charitable tax deductions tax-favored. Its proposals are supposed to be revenue-neutral, meaning that any tax cuts must be offset by new revenues.

"So I'll bet my (nonexistent) refund that the tax 'reform' proposals will go something like this. Leave Bush's existing tax cuts in place. Eliminate the estate tax. Eliminate some or all of the remaining taxes on income from investments. Eliminate or pare back the alternative minimum tax (AMT). Make up for these cuts by adopting something like a broad-based national sales tax or value-added tax. Eliminate or pare deductions for state and local taxes, which the AMT has begun to do indirectly.

"The AMT mostly affects people in high-tax (read: Democratic-leaning) states but is spreading to taxpayers throughout the country. Even though it's clawing back an increasing proportion of the Bush tax cuts, the president has never proposed cutting it. Clearly, an AMT fix is being held hostage to make a national sales tax or value-added tax more palatable.

"This 'reform' package would be part of Bush's unstated but clear goal of turning the income tax into a tax on wages only, and making the country even friendlier for inherited wealth and for people with lots of income from investments. As for wage slaves who are trying to accumulate wealth, good luck. They'll pay tax not only on the salary they earn, but also on what they spend. A national sales or value-added tax would fall disproportionately on lower-income people who spend everything (or almost everything) they make. But there's nothing in Bush's instructions to the commission saying that would be bad."

So, to say the the president is unintelligent or stupid I think is clearly unfounded. The man knows what he's doing. He is one of the worst communicating presidents in modern times. That's hard to deny and it is important. But he's as sly as a fox. And he knows what he's doing and he knows what he wants to accomplish. Even though that agendais completely dominated by ideology and not original idea.

Sorry if I sounded off topic, but I've wanted to vent for awhile.
 
There's a difference between intelligence and being crafty.

Bush can't communicate: True
Bush is intelligent: False
Bush is crafty: True

You can be dumb and still manipulate things to get your way. I wouldn't say that he's unsuccessful at getting what he wants (he got reelected after all), but I would never call him intelligent.

There's a difference.
 
Not only did CBS cut him off, but NBC and Fox did as well. LOL!

I think "Babblefest" was turning off the viewers. Plus, they were pissed that Bush's speech cost them tens of millions of dollars in lost revenue since it's supposed to be the start of sweep's month.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']There's a difference between intelligence and being crafty.

Bush can't communicate: True
Bush is intelligent: False
Bush is crafty: True

You can be dumb and still manipulate things to get your way. I wouldn't say that he's unsuccessful at getting what he wants (he got reelected after all), but I would never call him intelligent.

There's a difference.[/QUOTE]

You just described 95% of ALL politicians. All politicians are intelligent. Even Al Sharpton is to some extent and I can't stand the man.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']I just wanna know what that motherfucker is always smirking at.[/QUOTE]

Some people just have stupid looks on their face no matter what. Just look at Skip Bayless when he is talking to Woody Paige on Cold Pizza.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Some people just have stupid looks on their face no matter what. Just look at Skip Bayless when he is talking to Woody Paige on Cold Pizza.[/QUOTE]

haha i guess thats true but i mean the guy will be talking about 9/11 with a fucking smirk on his face. Everytime i watch him i'm always think what the fuck is so goddamn funny.
 
I don't remember that but I do remember it when he and John Kerry were having their debates. I don't really have a problem with Bush but that was funny to watch, lol.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']haha i guess thats true but i mean the guy will be talking about 9/11 with a fucking smirk on his face. Everytime i watch him i'm always think what the fuck is so goddamn funny.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you on that. But it's the half-chortle/-half-cackle that always gets me.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']I'm with you on that. But it's the half-chortle/-half-cackle that always gets me.[/QUOTE]

You know what else is funny about bush, is that when he answers questions like he did last night he always tries to explain his answer but its obvious he doesnt know what hes talking about either and ends up saying something that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. It was pretty comical last night when he called on that tall guy for a question and called him "stretch"
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']You know what else is funny about bush, is that when he answers questions like he did last night he always tries to explain his answer but its obvious he doesnt know what hes talking about either and ends up saying something that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. It was pretty comical last night when he called on that tall guy for a question and called him "stretch"[/QUOTE]

It's because Bush isn't capable of fully seeing someone who isn't pure evil or wealthy. Kinda like when Frodo puts on the Ring and it's just these ghosty shapes? That's how Bush sees normal human beings. Just vaguely anthropomorphic figures.
 
I did listen to the whole thing, but that's a part of my job. You can bet if it wasn't I wouldn't have watched it. He just repeated the same things he's been saying for months and months, no real news. And Bush just seems to always have a smirk on his face whatever he's talking about, even if it is deadly serious.
 
How about at the end when he says "Thank you for your answers.", then walks away. WTF was he talking about? Was he talking to Karl Rove in his earpiece?
 
Anyone else had a sorethroat the next day from screaming at the t.v.? I love how he said that teachers love/embrace the "No Child Left Behind Act". Bull$hit. My wife works in the public schools as a speech-language pathologist, and she doesn't know a single teacher that does. And she's worked in three different public schools in the past three years from us moving around so much.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Anyone else had a sorethroat the next day from screaming at the t.v.? I love how he said that teachers love/embrace the "No Child Left Behind Act". Bull$hit. My wife works in the public schools as a speech-language pathologist, and she doesn't know a single teacher that does. And she's worked in three different public schools in the past three years from us moving around so much.[/QUOTE]

Don't have a sore throat, but I was angry/alarmed at what he said about Iran in particular. The Russians, our best friends who are selling nuclear material to Iran and antiaircraft missiles to Syria, wonderful....:roll:
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Don't have a sore throat, but I was angry/alarmed at what he said about Iran in particular. The Russians, our best friends who are selling nuclear material to Iran and antiaircraft missiles to Syria, wonderful....:roll:[/QUOTE]


Just like those claims about Iraq trying to get "yellow cake" uranium from Nigeria.
 
I've learned not to trust Bu$h. He only tries to drive fear into the public.

Social Security: here's a radical idea - how 'bout paying back those I.O.U.'s, then keeping your grubby paws of it.

Energy: instead of giving tax breaks to the oil companies and trying to build more "nukular" and coal plants, giving us more waste and mercury to deal with, how about dumping all that money into safer, more accessible forms of energy.

Iran: who are we to say what they can & can't have? The U.S. is a much more aggressive country than Iran. Countries fear us more than Iran.
 
I think that a president should have to make his own speeches, like in the days before Nixon. It shows intelligence, and leadership abilities, to the likes of which our President lacks.

Agreed. politicians today are nothing more than glorified actors. Actors read all their speeches that were written by someone else. Leaders have their own opinions and can actually articulate them.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']I've learned not to trust Bu$h. He only tries to drive fear into the public. [/QUOTE]

Meh, I wouldn't even think about trusting 99.9% of Democrat/Republican politicians. Most are worried about getting reelected, so they are beholden to party constituencies who give them money.

[quote name='E-Z-B']Social Security: here's a radical idea - how 'bout paying back those I.O.U.'s, then keeping your grubby paws of it.[/QUOTE]

Neither party has been able to do this, and I doubt Bush would be able to convince Congress to do so even if he had the inclination. But the fact is that even if they did suddenly grow up and pay back the money they took, the system still isn't solvent.

[quote name='E-Z-B']Energy: instead of giving tax breaks to the oil companies and trying to build more "nukular" and coal plants, giving us more waste and mercury to deal with, how about dumping all that money into safer, more accessible forms of energy.[/QUOTE]

What about no tax breaks but money for R&D into renewables?

[quote name='E-Z-B']Iran: who are we to say what they can & can't have? The U.S. is a much more aggressive country than Iran. Countries fear us more than Iran.[/QUOTE]

Now you're being dumb. The U.S. is not more aggressive than Iran. Which country of the two is funding/arming Hezbollah again? Countries ignorant of history might fear us more than Iran, or countries like Syria and North Korea might fear us more than Iran. And they already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons, and now they're breaking their promise. If you support international law and the U.N. or have any knowledge of them, you'll see that we are hardly the only ones unhappy about Iran's nuclear program.
 
[quote name='elprincipe'] Now you're being dumb. The U.S. is not more aggressive than Iran. [/QUOTE]

When was the last time Iran illegally invaded a country and indiscriminately killed, tortured, and raped their people?

[quote name='elprincipe'] And they already agreed not to develop nuclear weapons, and now they're breaking their promise. If you support international law and the U.N. or have any knowledge of them, you'll see that we are hardly the only ones unhappy about Iran's nuclear program.[/QUOTE]

So? They can do what they want as long as they don't harm other countries. The U.S. also agreed with Russia not to develop a missile defense system.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']When was the last time Iran illegally invaded a country and indiscriminately killed, tortured, and raped their people?[/QUOTE]

Wow, didn't know you were so radical EZB. When is the last time the U.S. did those things? Well...never.

[quote name='E-Z-B']So? They can do what they want as long as they don't harm other countries. The U.S. also agreed with Russia not to develop a missile defense system.[/QUOTE]

Correction, the U.S. agreed with the Soviet Union not to develop missile defense systems.

And you're just making up things. They signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty agreeing not to develop weaponized uses of nuclear power in exchange for assistance in developing civilian uses of nuclear power. Now they're going back on their word and that' s okay with you? But it's not okay for the U.S. not to honor a treaty with a country that doesn't exist anymore? Why different standards for the U.S. compared to Iran?
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']I just wanna know what that motherfucker is always smirking at.[/QUOTE]
Seriously! He was smirking like crazy during that speech. Especially during the Social Security part :roll:

bush_SSS.jpg
 
[quote name='CappyCobra']Seriously! He was smirking like crazy during that speech. Especially during the Social Security part :roll:
[/QUOTE]

Because there is nothing more rewarding in this world than having an idiots support while you ream him in the ass.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Wow, didn't know you were so radical EZB. When is the last time the U.S. did those things? Well...never.[/QUOTE]

Despite what Fox News may be telling you, we committed all those crimes at Abu Graib. But that's the only one that got caught.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Wow, didn't know you were so radical EZB. When is the last time the U.S. did those things? Well...never.[/QUOTE]

Here's some light reading for you to catch up on what's really going on outside Fox News' coverage:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3806713.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1366348,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1351332,00.html
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticl...NYO5OCRBAE0CFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=650999
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4630222,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221658,00.html
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1212199,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1153012,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=491210


harmon_spc_sabrina.jpg

Spc. Sabrina Harmon poses over the body of Manadel al-Jamadi who was a allegedly beaten to death by CIA or civilian interrogators in the prison's showers.

dead8yrold.jpg

KILLED IN HER BED: Little girl, aged eight, lies dead in the rubble of her home after a US missile destroyed their home in a residential area of Basra killing six. Her ten year old sister also perished

stripped-iraqis1.jpg

"The Geneva Convention makes it illegal for prisoners of war to be shown and pictured and humiliated. And it is something that the United States does not do."
--Donald Rumsfeld March 23, 2003

There's many, many more articles here: http://www.nogw.com/warcrimes.html
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Despite what Fox News may be telling you, we committed all those crimes at Abu Graib. But that's the only one that got caught.[/QUOTE]

1. It's Abu Ghraib, not Graib.

2. Some prisoner abuse by wayward soldiers is not the same thing as "systematic" torture, abuse, killing and rape that you were saying.

[quote name='E-Z-B']indiscriminately killed, tortured, and raped their people[/quote]
^^
This is just not true.

Oh, and it's not the only abuse that's been uncovered. There have been a lot of investigations, and abuses in other prisons in Iraq and also in Afghanistan have been found. However, again, it is not "systematic" or approved by the higher-ups as far as is known, except for the conjecture of folks like you who want ever so much to believe the worst in the worst way.

EDIT: One more thing. Why do radicals such as yourself always try to insult someone by saying they watch Fox News? That's like ultra-conservatives insulting people by saying they watch CBS or CNN. Personally, I get my news from a variety of sources.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']1. It's Abu Ghraib, not Graib.[/quote]
:roll:

[quote name='elprincipe']2. Some prisoner abuse by wayward soldiers is not the same thing as "systematic" torture, abuse, killing and rape that you were saying.


^^
This is just not true.

Oh, and it's not the only abuse that's been uncovered. There have been a lot of investigations, and abuses in other prisons in Iraq and also in Afghanistan have been found. However, again, it is not "systematic" or approved by the higher-ups as far as is known, except for the conjecture of folks like you who want ever so much to believe the worst in the worst way.[/quote]

Here's the Pentago torture memo.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/military_0604.pdf

Pentagon probed on torture memo secrets

By Shaun Waterman
UPI Homeland and National Security Editor

Washington, DC, Jul. 7 (UPI) -- The federal government's secrecy watchdog has asked the Pentagon to explain why parts of a memo about the interrogation of terror detainees were classified, even though they discussed the political fall-out if the use of certain techniques became public.

The memo, declassified and released last month, is the report of a working group on interrogation techniques established in January 2003 by the Defense Department's general counsel.

The relevant passage -- marked "secret" prior to declassification -- is part of a discussion of the consequences for criminal and military prosecutions of detainees and others if the public became aware of the use of so-called "coercive interrogation techniques."

It reads: "Consideration must be given to the public's reaction to methods of interrogation that may affect the military commission process. The more coercive the method, the greater the likelihood that the method will be met with significant domestic and international resistance."

"Looking at that paragraph (of the working group report)," said William Leonard, director of the Information Security Oversight Office, which enforces government secrecy policy, "it's difficult to see how that information (could) ... damage national security."

The administration's policy regarding secrecy, laid out in a an executive order signed by President Bush in March last year, says that information can lawfully be classified only if its "unauthorized disclosure ... reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security..."

Leonard said the decision to classify that part of the report was part of disturbing trend, what he called a "bureaucratic impulse," a tendency on the part of officials to "almost reflexively reach out to the classification system."

Lawmakers argue that over-classification is rife in the federal government, and critics of the administration have accused it of abusing classification to hide information that would be merely embarrassing or inconvenient, rather than dangerous.

The working group report is what classification specialists call "part marked," meaning that each paragraph has its own code indicating how secret it is. Several paragraphs in the report are marked "U" for unclassified.

"On its face," Leonard said, the classification of that passage "reflects a disturbing lack of understanding of the constraints and limitations (of) the executive order ..."

Leonard said it was especially disturbing because the working group that drew up the report included some of the most senior lawyers in the Department of Defense.

He said the classification decision was doubly inexplicable because there were several other options available to officials.

"I can well understand that people might not want this kind of pre-decisional deliberative type of information" made public, he said.

But he pointed out that there are other ways to protect such information -- exemptions from the Freedom Of Information Act mean such material does not have to be disclosed to the public, and the claim of executive privilege can be used to protect it from congressional investigators.

"The classification system is designed with one specific purpose in mind," said Leonard, "to protect the nation from its enemies. Every time it is used for any other purpose, it is undermined."

Contacted Wednesday, several defense officials told United Press International they could not comment immediately.

But Steven Aftergood, of the Federation of American Scientists, who campaigns against excessive secrecy in government said that the passage was one of several in the working group report that had only "dubious" claims to be classified.

"That's the most egregious," he said of the passage that drew the attention of the government's watchdog, "because it is so clearly and specifically about the political consequences of the disclosure of government policy."

But he said the document -- and other papers about interrogation techniques recently released by the government -- contained many other examples of secrecy being "used to protect ordinary bureaucratic ruminations on the political consequences of a course of action."

"It's a wholesale abuse of the classification system," he said. "Secrecy authority is being used in a self-serving manner to control public discussion of government policy and that is not acceptable."

FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds said officials in the justice department had used their classification powers to suppress evidence in a lawsuit she brought, and she was not surprised at charges of over-classification.

"Sometimes we would get documents which were marked 'Top Secret' even though they hadn't been translated yet," said Edmonds, who worked as a contract translator in the bureau's Washington field office. "Sometimes they would turn out to be utterly innocuous, but rather than go through the procedures for declassification, (FBI managers) would just leave it.

"It would be stored, processed and handled as top secret."

Such over-classification is a persistent problem in the intelligence community, Rep. Porter Goss, R-Fla., told UPI recently.

"The problem is, it's a ratchet," he said. "It only turns one way. There are very serious consequences for failure to classify sensitive information. There tend to be no adverse consequences -- at least not to someone's career -- of classifying something that doesn't need to be classified."

Leonard told UPI that, generally speaking, it was up to the relevant department -- in this case the Pentagon -- to decide what, if any, disciplinary or re-training action to take against an official who had made an inappropriate classification decision.

"I always prefer that the affected department ... come up with their own plan," he said. "Only someone with knowledge of the circumstances under which the judgment (to classify) was made and with insight into the intent (of the official making it) can really decide on the appropriate corrective action or any sanctions."

Aftergood said that part of the problem was that Leonard's own office faced an impossible task in overseeing the classification process.

He pointed out that 14 million pieces of information were classified last year. "That's about a million for each member of (the Information Security Oversight Office) staff.

"I do not know of any government office which is more responsive to issues raised by members of the public," Aftergood concluded, "but structurally their resources are simply not adequate to the task."

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040707-100658-5228r.htm

[quote name='elprincipe']EDIT: One more thing. Why do radicals such as yourself always try to insult someone by saying they watch Fox News? That's like ultra-conservatives insulting people by saying they watch CBS or CNN. Personally, I get my news from a variety of sources.[/QUOTE]

Your lack of knowledge of U.S. warcrimes shows that you must not pay attention to those "variety of sources".

As usual, Republicans have to resort to name-calling in their arguements much like Scrubking does.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Your lack of knowledge of U.S. warcrimes shows that you must not pay attention to those "variety of sources".

As usual, Republicans have to resort to name-calling in their arguements much like Scrubking does.[/QUOTE]

My "lack of knowledge"? :roll: Yeah right, I don't know anything if I don't buy into the anti-American leftist propaganda line of all U.S. soldiers are raping and killing Iraqis and are the scum of the earth. :roll:
 
[quote name='elprincipe']My "lack of knowledge"? :roll: Yeah right, I don't know anything if I don't buy into the anti-American leftist propaganda line of all U.S. soldiers are raping and killing Iraqis and are the scum of the earth. :roll:[/QUOTE]

You make general assumptions without any evidence to support your claims. I have provided numerous links to support my claims. And I never said that "all" soldiers are raping and killing Iraqis. Now you're making false claims about my statements.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']You make general assumptions without any evidence to support your claims. I have provided numerous links to support my claims. And I never said that "all" soldiers are raping and killing Iraqis. Now you're making false claims about my statements.[/QUOTE]

You said these things were "systematic," so maybe that doesn't mean all, but it sure does mean most. And it also implies that such things were ordered from above.

Main Entry: sys·tem·at·ic
Pronunciation: "sis-t&-'ma-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin systematicus, from Greek systEmatikos, from systEmat-, systEma
1 : relating to or consisting of a system
2 : presented or formulated as a coherent body of ideas or principles
3 a : methodical in procedure or plan b : marked by thoroughness and regularity
4 : of, relating to, or concerned with classification; specifically : TAXONOMIC

So what definition were you using that didn't mean that you were accusing most U.S. soldiers of indiscriminate killing/rape/abuse? I'm dying to know.

Oh, and many of your links to "proof" are just articles from ultra-leftist papers. Big fucking deal.
 
So what's the point of Bush preempting primetime for an hour for a Q&A session? I saw part of it and didn't learn anything I already read about in the newspaper or online web site.
 
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