why do we pay for LIVE?

[quote name='Surferflames']Just because dedicated has worked that way on consoles in the past does not mean that is how dedicated servers work. PC games have seen "false host" style dedicated servers in which the first person joining/creating/whatever is given the ability to adjust settings.

Obviously the option for both is ideal, but to use examples from a few sub-par, failed console games as a generalization for the idea in general is just wrong.

edit: Thinking about it further, I seem to even remember "vote for admin" systems to appoint a "keyholder-host" for the game.[/quote]I know how dedicated servers work on PCs, but we're not talking about PC games..we're talking about console games. No dedicated server in the world beats the speed and ease of hitting the A button to start a room, inviting 3+ friends, and launching the game (a process that doesn't take over a minute). And to point the finger at games like Battlefield is not wrong, especially when people mention these few games that do have their own servers set up and how great they are. Until a company can show that it has a strong, stable server on Xbox Live (getting dropped/not being able to join 45-50% of the games on Battlefield 2:MC does not qualify as a good online server, EA) then there is no point in going to an all-dedicated server community. And, in the end, even with this utopia of dedicated servers and no host advantage, the people who pay $100~ a month for high speed internet still have an advantage over basic DSL users and the like (just like on Gears). With something like Xbox Live, there's no way to ensure completely equal ground for every single player.

[quote name='terribledeli']Instead of doing something to protest his preceived slighting, he just creates an unoriginal topic on a message forum and wants everyone to champion something he read on TeamXbox.com last week.[/quote]Like he said... REPOST
 
[quote name='Malik112099'][rant on]

Home is NOT an xbox live competitor..its not even in the same class. Home is second life for the ps3 with an apartment, hall of fame and other crap im not interested in while xbox live is a fully integrated media/gaming/content network for the X360. Home is basically a game you have to basically launch to use and then it is pretty self contained....yes, you can play games against other people but only the games contained within home..no thanks. Live is a fully integrated (across the console and all games), constantly running (as long as you are signed in) application which connects me to friends, gamers, media, movies, trailers, chats, messenger, video conferencing, demos, monthly artist videos, tv content, HD content, documentary style vids, etc etc etc. On top of all that i use the 360 to stream music and movies from my oc to my tv, media center for playing slideshows for people, listen to xm, check out mtv and vh1 videos and content, etc etc etc....and THEN there is also the arcade with lesser priced games for me to play leisurely by myself or against friends and i can hop online to check friends playing and send/recieve messages and pretty soon Live will be integrated into games for windows and be free for people that already have a gold account on their xbox and people will be able to game cross platform...oh and my friends list is my friends list...its not game specific and cross game invites can be sent and i can see the other games people are playing even if im not playing the same game.....oh and you can have guests play with you in unranked games....

I am not renewing my subscription to OXM because of Live....why pay $24 a year for demos when they are included in the price of Live? I already read all my reviews online...

Why bitch about dedicated servers? Unlike the sony network i dont have to worry if i can still play CoD or NFS:Most Wanted online....like what was stated earlier if you want to do some retro gaming its no problem on Live......as for sony it all depends on whether or not support is still offered for that particular game....the first game ever made to utilize xbox live is still playabel online....does this hold true for sony's free service?

why bitch about having to pay for a year in advance? you can purchase 1, 3 and 12 months cards....yeah the 1 and 3 month are more expensive per month than the 12 month but as in EVERYTHING ELSE EVAR, you pay less when you buy in bulk.

Why bitch about paying up front? you had to pay up front for the console and the games (and in my case extra controller, vision cam, wireless headset, wifi adapter and HD DVD player) so why not pay up front for live which is just another non-mandatory accessory to the xbox? if $50 ONCE A YEAR is that big a hit to your wallet you do not need to be actively involved in a hobby that currently carries a cover charge of at least $300. and if it is still a big deal put it on a credit card and pay the minimums for forever.....

all in all you cannot beat xbox live for the price.....you get SO MUCH for seriously so little.......


[/rant off][/QUOTE]


:applause: very spirited. too bad you have never actually used home so your rant is mostly empty speculation.

For one thing, all those awesome features you mentioned are in home (well, I don't know about VH1 vids, but those would go perfect on the Wii :lol: ) and the arcade games on PSN have been cheaper so far (aside from Tekken, but that's a full featured, current gen game. even then, Tekken was cheaper than lumines when all is said and done.) And a lot of casual games are integrated with the Home avatars (ala wii sports)


I don't know if Home is going to beat Live or anything like that, but if you don't think it's a competitor and write it off as "Second Life" you're just plain wrong.
 
its the best for online but its getting sad when someone wants to give away free content, and MS forces a 800 point pricetag, so it does make me think why do I pay so much..
 
I enjoy live and its service. They have the online market as good as it can be. Friendly interface, it works well. Some things are over priced but you don't have to buy them.
 
I love XBL and it keeps me and my friends in contact all the time. I don't have any issues with the price tag and I enjoy the ease of community it has.
 
Ya, I mean 50 bucks a year isn't much at all...but you think that with Sony offering free dedicated servers and Nintendo having free online too, that by paying 60$ Canadian we'd at least get a few dedicated, lag-free servers... =/
 
[quote name='terribledeli']What a terrific analogy. Too bad it doesn't make sense in this situation. The OP didn't once say "Well, there's a lot of problems with Live but we're getting some goodies. I'd like to see it improve."

He moans

"xbox live is essentially a pay for matchmaking service and a bad one at that."

"you'd think we would get perks (such as new maps) for being gold members, instead i feel we're just getting what should have been free in the first place."

"what's even more ridiculous is the fact that microsoft is actually preventing developers from releasing content for free like with the original xbox."

and

" if we're going to pay MS to play online, they should host games on their dedicated servers because host advantage is an issue that still needs to be addressed"

He is clearly unhappy with the service overall and offers no "pinch of salt" improvement. Instead of doing something to protest his preceived slighting, he just creates an unoriginal topic on a message forum and wants everyone to champion something he read on TeamXbox.com last week.[/quote]

how is improve matchmaking, perks (a few games/gamerpics/themes/videos/music/dlc at no additional cost) and letting developers chose to release free dlc not a 'pinch of salt' solution? how much work do you think it takes to create a gamerpic or theme?

as my analogy illustrated; there is a spectrum of displeasure - the OP doesn't hate XBL, they just see room for some simple improvements (aka a pinch of salt). you dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
[quote name='xtchuh']Because if you can't afford it, then I would not want to hear your annoying immature voice online.

It's less than $5 a month. If you can't afford $5, then there is something up.[/quote]
what kind of shitty argument is that, just because it's cheap it's automatically worth it? and when did xbox live stop having immature, racist asshats on their network? it's not the point that it's an affordable price to pay, we all pay more to get fast food each week. the point is we're paying for what something akin to EA charging for things that should already be in the game. the only reason being is that MS is the first ones to make a big push in the online console market.

[quote name='mr ryles']Tell me one thing that nintendo or ps3 online has over xbox live and I may consider that xbox live isn't worth it. Until then I consider xbox live worth every penny.[/quote]can't i also compare it to the pc market though? i mean the only difference is that MS closed off their system so we have to pay. so when you do look at the pc market, you'll see it pretty much exceeds the multiplayer experience for free.

[quote name='Scorch']Hell fucking no. They host the game's online network, the users host the servers. I'm glad that they DON'T have dedicated servers. With the way it is now, I can go back and play Whacked! with some friends on the original XBox. It's not like EA or even Konami where they discontinue online support (Need for Speed Underground 2, NBA Street 3, MGS: Substinence, etc). I love the fact that they host the backbone of the games.. it's what enables us to have XBox retro nights here on CAG. Otherwise, servers for less popular games like Whacked, Midtown Madness 3, Star Wars: Jedi Academy, etc. would've been shut down a long time ago.
[/quote] but wouldn't it more beneficial we were allowed to have both user run dedicated servers and MS official servers.

[quote name='Corvin']Free opens the floodgates for the asshats. With no repercussions anyone can act like a dick and not be held accountable. With the possibility of losing your account and $50 investment and possibly your gamertag... it cuts down the amount of assholes.

Loosely moderated for $4 a month >>> free-for-all madhouse[/quote]not really, if you play xbox live regularly with random people you'll know that there are still a large amount of dicks playing. and couldn't MS just ban the IP instead?

[quote name='xtchuh']And I guess you truly enjoy your life expecting to receive freebies correct? You are paying for a service that offers a lot for less than $5 per month. So yes, I have NO PROBLEM paying for it. Like an earlier poster said, if it was free, just wonder the amount of a-holes that would be playing. With the 360, I am able to Video Chat with a friend across the country.. Am I able to do that with PS3? No. Don't be surprised if PS3 starts charging for there online service in the near future. If they don't, I won't be surprised if they start putting advertisement up, or even worse make you sit through a god damn commercial before you play a game.[/quote]can't you video chat on silver accounts too?

[quote name='Weedy649']triforcer how long have you been a console online gamer?

...

I havent addressed the price of live, and feel there is no need to. The service speaks for itself. OP if you read one thing read this. The last game you currently played was GRAW. Firstly, if it wasnt for xbox live, theres no way in hell id know that. Secondly, you can still play GRAW to your hearts content on live with plenty other people...if that were on ps2, the servers would have been shutdown very shortly after GRAW 2 came out, since most are only kept up for about a year or until the sequel is out.[/quote]

i've been playing online consoles since the original xbox when i happily paid for the service back then, but i've been playing online PC games for years before that on and off. yes everything you mentioned about seeing what i've been playing and chatting with people are great features, and they're also already free for silver members. if MS gave the option for user dedicated servers along with their current hosting solution wouldn't that still ensure older games don't get left out?
[quote name='dafoomie']$3.33 a month. 11 cents a day. This is a financial burden to you? Maybe you need to get your priorities in order and not worry about video games if it is, because you're either homeless or 5.

Maybe in fantasy land, all of the infrastructure required for this is free. Unfortunately, MS is based in reality. I'll gladly pay my 11 cents for a vastly superior service. You couldn't pay me to tolerate the crap that is PS3 online.
[/quote] no $3.33 isn't a financial burden on me and it sure isn't to you, so i'm sure you go out of your way to help poor kids in third world countries by giving 11 cents a day to them, right? and xbox live maybe vastly superior to something like the ps3 network, but in online gaming for all platforms including PC, it's a joke and you get it for free on the PC.

[quote name='Malik112099'][rant on]

Home is NOT an xbox live competitor...

...

all in all you cannot beat xbox live for the price.....you get SO MUCH for seriously so little.......


[/rant off][/quote]i'm bitching about paying for stuff that gold members get that silver doesn't. mainly just multiplayer and leaderboards, yes like i've said before it's not that big of a cost issue. things that are traditionally accessible free in other online platforms.

[quote name='terribledeli']I do find it delicious people love to bitch about Live, but aren't willing to cancel subscriptions to prove a point.

If the OP is that unhappy or thinks he's getting screwed over, he'd shitcan his gold account. Even "sticking it" to Microsoft by buying cheap doesn't punish them. The retail store has already paid Microsoft for their product.[/quote]yes i'm unsatisfied with the way MS is handling LIVE right now, but why would i cancel my service if i already paid for it? all i would be proving by cancelling my account is that i know how to waste money.

[quote name='terribledeli']What a terrific analogy. Too bad it doesn't make sense in this situation. The OP didn't once say "Well, there's a lot of problems with Live but we're getting some goodies. I'd like to see it improve."

He moans

"xbox live is essentially a pay for matchmaking service and a bad one at that."

"you'd think we would get perks (such as new maps) for being gold members, instead i feel we're just getting what should have been free in the first place."

"what's even more ridiculous is the fact that microsoft is actually preventing developers from releasing content for free like with the original xbox."

and

" if we're going to pay MS to play online, they should host games on their dedicated servers because host advantage is an issue that still needs to be addressed"

He is clearly unhappy with the service overall and offers no "pinch of salt" improvement. Instead of doing something to protest his preceived slighting, he just creates an unoriginal topic on a message forum and wants everyone to champion something he read on TeamXbox.com last week.[/quote]i mentioned that MS should start their own dedicated servers to improve the live experience. give us free content that would have been free anyways if MS didn't stop it. and no i don't read Teamxbox.com, but that's for recommending that article.

[quote name='Mister Switch']how is improve matchmaking, perks (a few games/gamerpics/themes/videos/music/dlc at no additional cost) and letting developers chose to release free dlc not a 'pinch of salt' solution? how much work do you think it takes to create a gamerpic or theme?

as my analogy illustrated; there is a spectrum of displeasure - the OP doesn't hate XBL, they just see room for some simple improvements (aka a pinch of salt). you dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.[/quote]thank you for paying attention.
 
[quote name='Brian9824']Actually you can video chat with people across the country alot easier then with the 360. Heres JoyStiq and CheapyD doing it when it first came out....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8N1whYaEB4Y

So obviously it COULD be free.[/QUOTE]

LMAO! it took them 2 minutes to get a picture. That's not easier than 360.
 
In the end, Xbox Live isn't perfect, there is lag, there are issues connecting to people, there are overpriced marketplace stuff, and the points system is BS.

That said i'd take it over Sony or Nintendo's anyday, even for $50.
 
[quote name='Deadpool']LMAO! it took them 2 minutes to get a picture. That's not easier than 360.[/QUOTE]


That was around launch day. it has been updated a few times since then, as is my understanding.
 
[quote name='triforcer']no $3.33 isn't a financial burden on me and it sure isn't to you, so i'm sure you go out of your way to help poor kids in third world countries by giving 11 cents a day to them, right? and xbox live maybe vastly superior to something like the ps3 network, but in online gaming for all platforms including PC, it's a joke and you get it for free on the PC.[/QUOTE]
Since you can apparently afford to drop $600 on a console, why not drop $600 on some orphans? This is not an argument.

XBL vs PC is comparing apples and oranges. One is a general purpose machine that will run software written by anyone, and the other is a closed proprietary system that you have to pay a fee to publish software for, as are all consoles. You know what else is cheaper on PC? The games. You know what costs more? The hardware. Ever wonder why? Welcome to the video game console business model. They subsidize the cost of the hardware by charging more for the software. If you don't like this practice, then by all means, pay more up front for a PC, and get your games cheaper and your services for free. Consoles and PC's are not comparable, they are two different things for two different markets.

This brings us to our other lesson, nothing in life is free. Not even PS3 online. Unlike those of us living in fantasy land, it costs money to operate, it costs Sony money and it costs the developers money. Unlike XBL, the burden and expense of operating these servers is placed on the developer. How does this affect you? There is not a unified experience due to each developer having to create their own systems separately. Games are less likely to support an online component on PS3 due to the added expense. Budgets for creating PS3 games are going to be lower due to the ongoing expense of operating these servers. Many games discontinue their online services after the game's run is over, due to the expense. Game prices could rise, you could be charged a monthly fee by individual games, and the system likely costs more, due to the expense. There is no such thing as a free lunch, you're paying for "free" PS3 online with poorer service and likely higher costs elsewhere.
 
I love live but i must say if they gave us dedicated servers it would be nice....and i think Gold members should get a discount or they should make some kind of reward program for ppl who buy lots of stuff
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Since you can apparently afford to drop $600 on a console, why not drop $600 on some orphans? This is not an argument.

XBL vs PC is comparing apples and oranges. One is a general purpose machine that will run software written by anyone, and the other is a closed proprietary system that you have to pay a fee to publish software for, as are all consoles. You know what else is cheaper on PC? The games. You know what costs more? The hardware. Ever wonder why? Welcome to the video game console business model. They subsidize the cost of the hardware by charging more for the software. If you don't like this practice, then by all means, pay more up front for a PC, and get your games cheaper and your services for free. Consoles and PC's are not comparable, they are two different things for two different markets.

This brings us to our other lesson, nothing in life is free. Not even PS3 online. Unlike those of us living in fantasy land, it costs money to operate, it costs Sony money and it costs the developers money. Unlike XBL, the burden and expense of operating these servers is placed on the developer. How does this affect you? There is not a unified experience due to each developer having to create their own systems separately. Games are less likely to support an online component on PS3 due to the added expense. Budgets for creating PS3 games are going to be lower due to the ongoing expense of operating these servers. Many games discontinue their online services after the game's run is over, due to the expense. Game prices could rise, you could be charged a monthly fee by individual games, and the system likely costs more, due to the expense. There is no such thing as a free lunch, you're paying for "free" PS3 online with poorer service and likely higher costs elsewhere.[/quote] yea it's not an argument, neither is saying it may be a financial burden to me just because i question why they're charging us.

and PC gaming must be the fantasy land you're talking about and they are comparable because of how xbox live handles the server hosting which is done by the user. we're using our machines and our connection to play these games, the same way pc gamer's do. and going on about your speculation about what will happen with the PS3 and their games, i think it's unsupported. you really think sony wont subsidize the cost for these developers to encourage them to put online in their games, of course they will. and if the cost for creating an online experience is so expensive, how the hell are PC publishers and developers doing it? right there's no licensing fee, but their budget increases just like console developers even more so with the faster rate of graphical improvements on the PC. not only that but they charge less for the game while we now have this new standard for next gen game prices.
 
I only pick up 48-hour trials if I want to play online. I really don't use it enough to justify a purchase of a Gold account.
 
i love live. its the only way i can communicate with anyone over the net without the use of emails and phone numbers..hell i made a friend from spain...how cool is that? anyway live is worth the money..and if you dont like paying for the DLC than dont pay for it. simple as that. i dont mind buying some of the DLC on live..like symphony of the night. to relive that again is killer and to only pay 10 bucks instead of buying a rare ps1 copy is way better.
 
Two things...

1. Even if it's a subscription that cost $ their will still be idiot/assholes... they just might not be 12.

2. I don't care if it's a small amount a mo. when it's blatent gouging and they can keep getting away with it. It's not right and I will have no part of it.

Untill people wake up, vote with their money, and not buy their shit this problem will continue. Then they will countinue to laugh all the way to the bank.
 
You get what you pay for. Sure, the PS3 lets you make your own name for free, but the 360 does so many little things that really strengthen the online experience.

For example, say I like to play Live with Scorch. I could be on Call of Duty 3, see him log in, shoot him a message asking if he has the latest game for Live, and within seconds be playing with him. Maybe after a few rounds we get bored and boot up an arcade game. It's just so connected that I don't mind paying 50.00 at all. However, you can always find deals...I'm running on 2 years for 40.00 myself.
 
Ya true on the deals...really you shouldn't have a problem finding it for 20$ less at least than the usual price. Right now theres like "Free 1400 MS points with XBL Gold card" in Canada which is 20 off...and there was also Splinter Cell:DA for 60 or 70 bucks awhile back and it came with a free XBL gold card...
 
[quote name='Spades22']20$ less at least than the usual price. Right now theres like "Free 1400 MS points with XBL Gold card" in Canada which is 20 off...[/quote]

...wait, what? where?!
 
The unified experience on Live is awesome. I've been on since the beginning, and I don't plan on cancelling. I have gotten a couple of great in store deals, so my actual cost has been lower since the whole in-store card renewall thing started too. Dedicated servers would be great, but most games don't have so much issue that it's necessary. Now if they would just implement a party/matchmaking type system a la Halo 2 that could be used in every game played on Live, the experience would be damn near perfect for me.

The fact I can play free on PC doesn't effect me since I don't play PC games... I'm sick of that argument. If that experience makes you happy, then go play a PC game and stop bitching in the 360 forum.

Everyone says "vote with your wallet" and I think that enough people have told MS that Live is worth $50 a year that they're not likely to change it.
 
XBL is perfect for me and my friends. Being in my 20s my friends and I have all moved out of are home town and are now all over the world. XBL is the only way I have kept in touch with all my friends from highschool and collage. I can go online, hit one button and see who is online.
Also being a "adult" I dont have a problem paying the $5 a month for XBL.
 
XBL is so good, people just don't understand. Have fun with MySpace on PS3. That thing is going to turn into an absolute garbage heap of pop-culture. Should be tons of fun.
 
[quote name='jer7583']XBL is so good, people just don't understand. Have fun with MySpace on PS3. That thing is going to turn into an absolute garbage heap of pop-culture. Should be tons of fun.[/QUOTE]

What?
 
Even if you're not a fan of dedicated servers hosted by a provider, wouldn't one at least want the option to use them? Especially if they worked better for certain games.
 
I don't feel like reading the entire thread but honestly XBL should either be free or they shouldn't be charging for extra content. Servers and bandwidth don't cost anything anymore (well at $5/month/person they are making quite a large profit off of most people). An average player probably uses less than 1 gb of bandwidth a year for just match making (which is all your paying for since silvers can get demos and all).

I'll still pay it because I like Rainbow Six Vegas online, but honestly unless you have your own game servers it should be free (like everybody else in the entire world does it).

[quote name='Jer7583'] XBL is so good, people just don't understand. Have fun with MySpace on PS3. That thing is going to turn into an absolute garbage heap of pop-culture. Should be tons of fun. [/quote]

Aren't you the one who is always complaining about the PS3's price? Factor in all the years of XBL you plan to pay for and then go shoot yourself, please. And yes I know PS3's online isn't amazing yet but so far everything is downloading at fantastic speeds (I'm getting 3,000 kb/sec here, which is honestly much faster than anything I get on XBL).
 
Live is great, and is currently unmatched. As long as that is the case, MS can get away with charging for it. I think, for what you get, it is definitely worth it. But, I also think it can be done for free. XBL really doesn't introduce anything that hasn't already been done on PC (for free). The main difference is, it combines all of these into one great experience. I think, as long as nobody can match Live they will charge for it, and it will be worth it, but I would like to see other companies step up to the challenge. Right now, I think Sony has the best chance, although they are still quite a ways off. Home will help, but, with the introduction of that, it seems like they may be heading in a different direction than Live (not better, not worse, just different).
 
Live is an amazing online system. I love how it's required to be integrated in all 360 games, and how easy it is to use. I wish the Wii had an online system half as good as Live.
However, I think it's kind of crazy that we have to pay for player hosted matches. If Live used dedicated servers I could understand why we would have to pay, but it's pretty stupid we are paying for something that should be free, especially since Microsoft is making money on DLC and they have ads on the dashboard.
Microsoft really either give Gold members some free DLC, and charge silver members for the content or get rid of the silver accounts and making gold free for everyone (to refund those that have paid for Gold accounts they could give us marketplace points).
Even with XBL's faults I'm willing to continue to use it since it works so well and I've never paid full price for it.
 
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