WP: Down Syndrome Now Detectable In 1st Trimester

[quote name='zionoverfire']A dog can also recognize voices, it's not a question of a lack of response but what level of intelligence is actually nessasary before one can be called fully human.

[/quote]

A newborn child is not as smart as an adult dog. We can't focus purely on intelligence to define what is and isn't human. The recognition of familiar voices is significant evidence to show that a baby is aware.

There is also a vast difference between a baby and something still in the womb.;)
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Focusing purely on the baby, as in what it can do and what it is capable of and not what its connected to, how can you differentiate between a 2 day old baby and a baby 5 days before birth? How can you say a premature baby (by 2 or 3 weeks) is more human than a baby born on time, when it in fact is less developed. It's a gradual process, what surrounds the baby doesn't change that.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']A newborn child is not as smart as an adult dog. We can't focus purely on intelligence to define what is and isn't human. The recognition of familiar voices is significant evidence to show that a baby is aware.[/quote]

And I'm saying that being aware doesn't make something human.

what surrounds the baby doesn't change that.
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Actually it does, babies start breathing after removal from the womb.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']And I'm saying that being aware doesn't make something human.
[/quote]

Well, you have to wait until the child is at least 5 or 6 before it is the smarter than what we know some other animals to be. I'm not sure how you choose to define something as human, there is nothing we do that another animal does not in some capacity. I can't imagine you'd argue that a 4 year old child is not fully human.

Actually it does, babies start breathing after removal from the womb.
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While that is correct, the assumption made is wrong. It is the childs surrounding that effects that. The oxygen enters the body from the umbilical cord and, since oxygen is already in the blood, the lungs are not needed in the womb. Later in development it is capable of breathing even though the lungs are collapsed.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Well, you have to wait until the child is at least 5 or 6 before it is the smarter than what we know some other animals to be. I'm not sure how you choose to define something as human, there is nothing we do that another animal does not in some capacity.[/quote]
I would simply define human as a certain level of intelligence, if we ever happen to discover or create another animal that is above this level it can be human as well. The problem with assigning humanity to things that are not yet their own entity is that you begin to assign them rights, plus when you go buy intelligence unplugging everyone in a persistent vegetative state becomes that much easier.;)


While that is correct, the assumption made is wrong. It is the childs surrounding that effects that. The oxygen enters the body from the umbilical cord and, since oxygen is already in the blood, the lungs are not needed in the womb. Later in development it is capable of breathing even though the lungs are collapsed.
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Yes but if you'd like a definate difference between an early born baby, a baby and a featus it is rather definative.
 
[quote name='Metal Boss']Well, abortion isn't killing a person, it's extracting a little jumble of cells that create a human from a womans womb, thats not concious or in any kind of state of feeling...


Your position is misinformed.[/QUOTE]

If you're so informed about the subject, how about you tell me the exact point that "little jumble of cells" becomes a human being? This should be interesting.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Or one could alternatively say they don't actually "awaken" until after birth, but few people like to consider that option.[/QUOTE]

Because that's a dumb thing to think. Following this logic, a baby born 6 weeks early has "awakened" and is a separate person, while a baby who is 3 weeks past the due date is not "awake" and not a person, despite being much more fully developed and able to live on his/her own outside the womb if birth had occurred. In your line of reasoning, a c-section being performed or not decides someone's humanity. There is just no logic in this position.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Because that's a dumb thing to think. Following this logic, a baby born 6 weeks early has "awakened" and is a separate person, while a baby who is 3 weeks past the due date is not "awake" and not a person, despite being much more fully developed and able to live on his/her own outside the womb if birth had occurred. In your line of reasoning, a c-section being performed or not decides someone's humanity. There is just no logic in this position.[/QUOTE]

:rofl: Way to hit the ball deep into foul territory. The logic in that position is you could decide that a baby isn't wake until some time far after its birth.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']:rofl: Way to hit the ball deep into foul territory. The logic in that position is you could decide that a baby isn't wake until some time far after its birth.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make a real argument and not being facetious.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make a real argument and not being facetious.[/QUOTE]

It's a far more intelligent choice than calling a specific clump of a few hundred cells human life.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']It's a far more intelligent choice than calling a specific clump of a few hundred cells human life.[/QUOTE]

I'm still waiting for you to explain when a "specific clump of cells" becomes a human. Or wait, you're sticking to the illogical argument that a baby 1 second away from birth is not human but one born months prematurely is? Or you're taking it one step further and promoting infanticide?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I'm still waiting for you to explain when a "specific clump of cells" becomes a human. Or wait, you're sticking to the illogical argument that a baby 1 second away from birth is not human but one born months prematurely is? Or you're taking it one step further and promoting infanticide?[/QUOTE]

Again the concept of disscusion seems lost on you. Like most things the start of human life is when we decide that something is human, be it by the ability to breathe, an age, an intelligence or some other arbitrary point you pick.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Again the concept of disscusion seems lost on you. Like most things the start of human life is when we decide that something is human, be it by the ability to breathe, an age, an intelligence or some other arbitrary point you pick.[/QUOTE]

Well, I (and the vast majority of society) disagree with you. I can't pick when I become human or when anyone else becomes human any more than I picked myself to exist. You either are human or you aren't. Of course, people who want to rationalize their abortion position attempt to blur this line in order to justify killing babies for their own convenience, so I suppose your position is just the natural end point of that rationalization.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Well, I (and the vast majority of society) disagree with you. I can't pick when I become human or when anyone else becomes human any more than I picked myself to exist. You either are human or you aren't. Of course, people who want to rationalize their abortion position attempt to blur this line in order to justify killing babies for their own convenience, so I suppose your position is just the natural end point of that rationalization.[/QUOTE]

Or the realization that your point is no more justifiable than theirs. They define human differently than you, you both can't be right but you both can be wrong.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Well, I (and the vast majority of society) disagree with you. I can't pick when I become human or when anyone else becomes human any more than I picked myself to exist. You either are human or you aren't. Of course, people who want to rationalize their abortion position attempt to blur this line in order to justify killing babies for their own convenience, so I suppose your position is just the natural end point of that rationalization.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I believe 80% of the American public support abortion rights. That would make elprincipe part of the radical fringe (big surprise).
 
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