WTF is up with the confederate flag?

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pittpizza

pittpizza

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Why do people fly it?

To me, it is an implicit statement that says "I wish there was slavery!" Or at least "I hate this country and want to secede." Am I alone here? Am I missing something?

If we fought in a war with a seperate nation or people, and we won...isn't it at least a slight affront to victors to continue to fly the confederate flag?

I don't think people should not be allowed to fly it, I just don't really get it, that is all.

If the argument is that it is just a proud symbol of the south and Southern values, half the people that I see flying it aren't even from the fuckin south.
 
Don't ask me, I don't get it either and I live in the south. I don't think they think about it that much, they just do it.
 
I personally have no emotion attached to it, but the civil war was the virtual death to the right of states to secede from the union. Can you imagine Canada declaring war if/when Quebec decides to leave the federation? Would you support military action against a country that decided to leave the EU?
 
[quote name='Autumn Star']It's a symbol for state rights.[/QUOTE]Yep.

[quote name='Msut77']The right to own brown people?[/QUOTE]...

You're an idiot.
 
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I lived in Alabama for a couple of years and got a kick out of the number of Southern curio shops. There were loads of wooden shacks chock full of Confederate merchandise and southern cookbooks and the like. Very interesting place to live.
 
[quote name='Zing']I personally have no emotion attached to it, but the civil war was the virtual death to the right of states to secede from the union.[/QUOTE]

Well if by that you mean the south never had that right to begin with and then obliterated even the idea by not including the right to secession in their own constitution, yes.

Can you imagine Canada declaring war if/when Quebec decides to leave the federation?
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If keeping to your comparison the Quebecois struck first, yes.

Would you support military action against a country that decided to leave the EU?
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The Maastricht treaty doesn't have a process for member nations to leave, it does not allow slavery either.



[quote name='Liquid2']I'm an idiot.[/quote]

Ever hear the saying "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"?

You have given us a perfect example of why it is so popular.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Ever hear the saying "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"?

You have given us a perfect example of why it is so popular.[/QUOTE]

You're a fucking moron. Jesus fucking Christ. You say something absolutely incorrect and stupid, get called out for it, and respond by acting even more dumb? fuck. Off.

blockedUsers[4] = "Msut77";

Smell ya later, Msut77. Smell ya later forever.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']You're a fucking moron. Jesus fucking Christ. You say something absolutely incorrect and stupid, get called out for it, and respond by acting even more dumb? fuck. Off.

blockedUsers[4] = "Msut77";

Smell ya later, Msut77. Smell ya later forever.[/QUOTE]

Woah, chill out man! All he said was that the confederate flag stands for slavery (Which it did at the time) and then you make it personal by calling him an idiot. Just settle down.
 
To me, it is an implicit statement that says "I wish there was slavery!" Or at least "I hate this country and want to secede." Am I alone here? Am I missing something?
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Yes, it's more of a statement around that idea that a part of the country was willing to stand up and fight against the government for something they believed in, even if the idea itself is completely ignorant and vile these days (remember that there was a time that many countries in the world felt that slavery or indentured servitude was perfectly fine, and that America was one of the last countries to abolish it.)

Honestly, considering the last couple of decades, have you seen a group of people fight for a cause as passionately as they have? Again, still a completely ignorant and vile cause (although their livelihoods did depend highly on the plantation "industry"), but they do still get some credit for being willing to fight for it.

This however, is not to be confused with the REALLY ignorant who think slavery will be making a return, or that socialism is coming to America. This is just a group of people who's ancestors might have fought and died in a war, or can at least respect the idea of speaking out against your government, one of the strongest freedoms of all.

And no, though I live in Florida, I am not a Southerner. I've spent most of my years in the north (thank God).

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']You say something absolutely incorrect..[/QUOTE]

What I said is not even remotely incorrect you ignorant, craven little stain.

[quote name='winterice']How can the Confederate flag be a symbol of State rights? That's essentially saying that slavery is a State right.[/quote]

I once heard it said that "States have powers, people have rights", as a casus belli it is bullshit anyway since the confederate constitution took away important powers from states.
 
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What I find most funny is that people who are likely to fly the stars and bars as a source of pride are also the people most likely to be pissed off when an immigrant flies a Puerto Rican or Mexican flag.

That being said, I think the design is cool, but that may have more to due with me first learning about the flag as a child associated with the Dukes of Hazzard and not slavery.

If only they said the reason they fly it is in remembrence of the General Lee (auto) then I'd give it full-throated support ;).
 
[quote name='Msut77']What I said is not even remotely incorrect you ignorant, craven little stain.
[/QUOTE]
Um actually it is, The civil war was fought overstates rights. while there was some fear that Lincoln was going to try and abolish slavery, Lincoln explicitly stated he would do no such thing.
Abolition came about as a military tactic, the same one the British used on the the US in the revolutionary war.
Slavery was about cheap labor not owning people, owning people was just and means to that end.(Today we just use third world labor, many of whom are treated worse than slaves)
The south was far more concerned over economic issues such as tariffs, they didn't think they should be forced to buy northern goods, and face retaliatory tariffs. Infact in 1832-3 South Carolina almost seceded over tarrifs and the problem wasn't solved until the tarrifs were overturned.
So who is the ignorant one?(maybe you can get atleast one thing right)
 
[quote name='hostyl1']What I find most funny is that people who are likely to fly the stars and bars as a source of pride are also the people most likely to be pissed off when an immigrant flies a Puerto Rican or Mexican flag.
[/QUOTE]

Beat me to the punch.

Why isn't there anger from progressives over somebody waving a Mexican flag in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas or California?

We went to war with Mexico. We won. We took their land. Same principle.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Um actually it is, The civil war was fought overstates rights. while there was some fear that Lincoln was going to try and abolish slavery, Lincoln explicitly stated he would do no such thing.
Abolition came about as a military tactic, the same one the British used on the the US in the revolutionary war.
Slavery was about cheap labor not owning people, owning people was just and means to that end.(Today we just use third world labor, many of whom are treated worse than slaves)
The south was far more concerned over economic issues such as tariffs, they didn't think they should be forced to buy northern goods, and face retaliatory tariffs. Infact in 1832-3 South Carolina almost seceded over tarrifs and the problem wasn't solved until the tarrifs were overturned.
So who is the ignorant one?(maybe you can get atleast one thing right)[/QUOTE]

While nothing you say is incorrect, you seem to imply that one of the "states rights" the CSA was fighting for wasn't slavery itself. It most certainly was. People often make the mistake of confusing "the Civil War wasn't only about slavery" with "the Civil War wasn't at all about slavery." The first statement is definitely true, the second one is ridiculous.

As for the flying of the stars and bars, I personally think it's kind of stupid, but this is America - consequently, I really don't think it matters what flags people want to fly.
 
I too get that awkward feeling when I See someone proudly wave their confederate flag..but.at the same time I was always under the impression that it was more a southern pride thing.
 
The same question came to me when I saw a State license plate with the confederate flag on it. To me its right up there with a white South African promoting an Apartheid flag, or joining a sons/daughters of Apartheid.
 
Like others have said, people fly the Confederate flag for a variety of reasons. If I were to guess, I'd say the major reason is that they're proud of being from the southern part of America and they'd like to identify themselves as having the values of that region (shocking, I know). It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with racism, in fact I believe the vast majority of people flying the Confederate flag abhor the idea of slavery. People with a prejudiced view of the Confederate flag are just as brainwashed as the people of other nations who believe that the American flag represents imperialism.
 
It's the reason the flag is being flown, not the flag itself. It's fine to fly the flag of a country to show your pride. The confederate flag does not represent a country, it seems like it represents more of the southern way of life to most people. Unfortunately, the "southern way of life" doesn't have a very good past. Most people in this area seem to fly it just to piss off the "yankees."
 
[quote name='lilboo']I too get that awkward feeling when I See someone proudly wave their confederate flag..but.at the same time I was always under the impression that it was more a southern pride thing.[/QUOTE]

id say its probably split between southern pride and people who like it for "negative" reasons.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']The civil war was fought overstates rights. [/QUOTE]

The only rights the war was fought over was the right to own people.

Again "states rights" as amorphously as it is defined is bullshit as a casus belli, the confederate constitution removed rights from states in particular and southern states were none too famous for respecting rights in general to begin with.

Abolition came about as a military tactic
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There was much more to it to say the least.

slavery was about cheap labor not owning people
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No. Slavery was about owning people.

The south was far more concerned over economic issues such as tariffs
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No.

So who is the ignorant one?
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Obviously still you and Liquid.
 
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[quote name='bvharris']While nothing you say is incorrect, you seem to imply that one of the "states rights" the CSA was fighting for wasn't slavery itself. It most certainly was. People often make the mistake of confusing "the Civil War wasn't only about slavery" with "the Civil War wasn't at all about slavery." The first statement is definitely true, the second one is ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
No I was implying that they where fighting for states rights to ensure there economic success. Of course slavery was one of the most important to the economy of the South, but it was also the piece of southern economy to be least likely affected by national laws.
To say the civil war was about slavery is misleading as there was no direct threat to slavery when the south seceded (Yes there was the fear that a national law would eventually abolish slavery and it played a part in the decision.)
The intent of the north was to reunite the nation not to free the slaves. (Yes I'm sure there where soldiers who fought for this, but it wasn't the intent of the war.)
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']To say the civil war was about slavery is misleading as there was no direct threat to slavery when the south seceded[/QUOTE]

To say the above and then follow it with:

Yes there was the fear that...
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Just goes to show we are dealing with a species of moron heretofore unknown.
 
[quote name='Msut77']The only rights the war was fought over was the right to own people.[/QUOTE]
Despite the fact that Lincoln specifically said he would not end slavery when he took office and didn't make point of ending slavery for most of the war?


[quote name='Msut77']
No. Slavery was about owning people.[/QUOTE]
Yes people just bought slaves so they could stand around all day and be like "look I have slaves" not to make money.


[quote name='Msut77']
No.[/QUOTE]
Which is why South Carolina almost seceded over them in 1832?

[quote name='Msut77']
Obviously you and Liquid.[/QUOTE]
Wow , you are great at being wrong maybe you can get a position in the Bush national library. Since seem to have trouble with the definition of ignorance here's the link
 
[quote name='Msut77']To say the above and then follow it with:



Just goes to show we are dealing with a species of moron heretofore unknown.[/QUOTE]
Wow way to take a quote out of context
[quote name='itachiitachi'] (Yes there was the fear that a national law would eventually abolish slavery and it played a part in the decision.)[/QUOTE]
Why would do that if you had any valid points?
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Despite the fact that Lincoln specifically said he would not end slavery when he took office and didn't make point of ending slavery for most of the war?[/quote]

Lincoln said many things, such as (and I'm paraphrasing) "if slavery is not wrong then nothing is" it is true that to to him it would have been ideal for it to happen gradually but the southern states did not want to take any steps at all.

Yes people just bought slaves so they could stand around all day and be like "look I have slaves" not to make money.
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I am certain that having to give up the perquisite of being able to rape all the women you owned was taken into consideration.

Which is why South Carolina almost seceded over them in 1832?
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Do you happen to be aware of what the word "almost" means?

you are great at being wrong
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Being wrong is the one thing I am terrible at. You on the other hand continue to wallow in ignorance.

Wow way to take a quote out of context
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Usually you can only accuse someone of that if the "context" is worthwhile, which happens not to be the case.

Why would do that if you had any valid points?
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You being an utter moron is a valid statement but not really a point.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']Lincoln said many things, such as (and I'm paraphrasing) "if slavery is not wrong then nothing is" it is true that to to him it would have been ideal for it to happen gradually but the southern states did not want to take any steps at all.[/QUOTE] I have no doubt the Lincoln didn't want slavery, He also didn't want to cripple the economy and start a war.

[quote name='Msut77']
I am certain that having to give up the perquisite of being able to rape all the women you owned was taken into consideration.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure that's how the south made all it's money, and the male slaves where for the gay people to rape right.


[quote name='Msut77']
Do you happen to be aware of what the word "almost" means?
[/QUOTE]
Ya it means they didn't because they got there way and the tariff was repealed.

[quote name='Msut77']
Being wrong is the one thing I am terrible at.
[/QUOTE]
which is why you use no facts, quote out of context, and yell at your at the computer screen like bill o'reily.(hint we can't hear you)

[quote name='Msut77']
Usually you can only accuse someone of that if the "context" is worthwhile, which happens not to be the case.
[/QUOTE]
Ya the qualifier "eventuality" which you conveniently left out doesn't change the meaning at all.

just like leaving at words and letters doesn't change the meaning of your statements
[quote name='Msut77'] i are moron [/QUOTE]

[quote name='Msut77']
You being an utter moron is a valid statement but not really a point.[/QUOTE]
Maybe in your world where typing something on a forum with no evidence makes it true.

It clear that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, that is retarded.

So now you're on my ignore list.(Since you have trouble understanding words, that means despite your best efforts, from now on when you rabidly gnaw on your keyboard in an attempt to make English sentences I won't be able to see it) (Although it probably won't stop you)
 
[quote name='JolietJake']It's the reason the flag is being flown, not the flag itself. It's fine to fly the flag of a country to show your pride. The confederate flag does not represent a country, it seems like it represents more of the southern way of life to most people. Unfortunately, the "southern way of life" doesn't have a very good past. Most people in this area seem to fly it just to piss off the "yankees."[/QUOTE]

It's only ok to fly the flag of a country? People still display and fly the Tiebetan flag, even it doesn't officially represent a country and has been banned in its place of origin.

I don't think it's fair to single the south out, America as a whole doesn't have a very good past. In its long history the south has at times been an area of strife, however it has also contributed to America's successes. I see nothing wrong with recognition of this, you wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']I have no doubt the Lincoln didn't want slavery, He also didn't want to cripple the economy and start a war.[/quote]

Yes, in both cases the opposite of what the southern states wanted.

I'm sure that's how the south made all it's money, and the male slaves where for the gay people to rape right.
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Because no one who pays even the most basic living wage ever makes money and all else is unimportant.

which is why you use no facts
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I have plenty of facts I am using sources such as the confederate constitution and the words of the Vice President of the Confederacy, you meanwhile are arguing from a position of nothing but ignorance.

You appear to be entirely clueless about the history of the abolition movement or of the stated reasons of why the confederacy went to war among other things, try googling Alexander Stephen's Cornerstone speech.

I doubt you would even do that, much of your stupidity is intentional like the way you purposely and continually ignore facts such as "states rights" is complete garbage because A) the confederate constitution removed important rights and B) rights were never much of a concern with southern states to begin with

Ya the qualifier "eventuality" which you conveniently left out doesn't change the meaning at all.
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You got one thing right finally, "stopped clock" and all that.

Maybe in your world where typing something on a forum with no evidence makes it true.
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You refusing to believe any and all evidence is not the same thing as there being no evidence.
 
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[quote name='camoor']It's only ok to fly the flag of a country? People still display and fly the Tiebetan flag, even it doesn't officially represent a country and has been banned in its place of origin.

I don't think it's fair to single the south out, America as a whole doesn't have a very good past. In its long history the south has at times been an area of strife, however it has also contributed to America's successes. I see nothing wrong with recognition of this, you wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.[/QUOTE]
I re-read my post to make sure, i never saw anything that said it had to be the flag of a country. However, if it isn't the flag of a country, it has to represent something else. Now, what exactly the confederate flag means to different people is a matter of opinion. Having lived in the south all my life and having seen quite a few people with that flag, it is my opinion that most people who fly that flag probably know fuck all about American history. They want a return to the "old south," the good ol' boy times. They also do it as a big F!CK YOU to the north. Also, honestly, some people do it just because they're "rebels."

I have serious doubts that anyone flies that flag for a good reason. If it were for historical purposes, you'd see more educated people flying it for those purposes. However, i find that people who do fly that flag are usually less than educated.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I used to live in Pennsylvania. People flew it there because they were racist, end of story.[/QUOTE]

I have to side with Msut, docvinh, lilboo, and the others in this thread who feel that the flying of the Confederate flag has more to do with racism than states rights.

Try to turn your argumentativeness off for a second and think of any people you know who fly the flag. Are these the types of individuals who are attempting to voice there opinion on a Constitutional law issue/social contract theory; or are the types of individuals who are more interested in mudflaps than legal theory?

You have to admit it is the latter. To deny this is just being obtuse. Now I'm not saying there isn't a con law professor out there who doesn't have a bigoted bone in his body who flies the flag because he beleives it accurately reflects his opinion on Constitutional legal issues, but he surely is the exception not the rule.

Itiachiitachii (sorry if i butchered the spelling), you've started to slightly irritate me because you persist in arguing that Slavery was about nothing more than economic advantage. You need to read up some on the conditions the slaves suffered through. They were not tortured/raped/starved to death/maimed (the list goes on and on) because it was economically advantageous.
 
To me its a symbol of a treasonous group of people who took up arms against America in defense of the Southern Aristocracy. But I'm sure to many its simply a symbol of Southern pride. Not a big fan of it.

The states rights argument as a cause of the Civil War comes right back to slavery as it was the principal defense of it. Slavery was the mechanism which kept Southern Aristocrats in power and in control, it kept most of the money and power in the hands of a few.

Opposition to slavery was often less about ideals than it was for practical economic reasons, they didn't want a small, wealthy group with so much power, and they didn't want the middle class to be replaced with slaves. Having to compete with slavery in the job market was becoming an issue.
 
it wasnt a big deal until the desegregation, when certain southern states tried using it as their act of defiance against the civil right movement.[FONT=arial,helvetica][/FONT]
 
Those who say that people wave the flag for state's rights purposes are giving the flag bearers way too much credit, while others who are quick to say "racist" to those same people are overgeneralizing.

Each person has a different reason for sporting that flag: they had ancestors who fought for the South during the war, they like the look of it, they see the Old South as some sort of utopia, etc. I've lived in Tennessee for 20+ years and the only times I've noticed the flag is usually near gravesides, memorials, and museums for remembrance of ancestors or local heroes or for Dukes of Hazzard memorabilia. Personally, I don't think that the flag shouldn't be the source of any controversy, it should be the people (at least the ones who use it for propaganda or scare tactics). I think a symbol is only what you make of it, meaning that there's nothing inherently wrong with the flag.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']
Each person has a different reason for sporting that flag: they had ancestors who fought for the South during the war, they like the look of it, they see the Old South as some sort of utopia, etc. I've lived in Tennessee for 20+ years and the only times I've noticed the flag is usually near gravesides, memorials, and museums for remembrance of ancestors or local heroes or for Dukes of Hazzard memorabilia. Personally, I don't think that the flag shouldn't be the source of any controversy, it should be the people (at least the ones who use it for propaganda or scare tactics). I think a symbol is only what you make of it, meaning that there's nothing inherently wrong with the flag.[/QUOTE]

Not that I disagree with your point, but I have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and I feel no strong desire to fly the stars and bars. I'm not sure that's really a factor.

As for the symbol argument, there's nothing inherently wrong with a swastika either, but if you don't consider the connotation of it before you fly it, than you're an idiot. You could fly the swastika intending it to mean the "evolution of the universe", but don't try and tell me you don't know how people are going to view it. Same goes with the confederate flag. Sure, you can fly it for "states rights", but you do so knowing full well what people associate that symbol with, and choosing not to care.
 
Clearly this thread shows that it means different things to different people.

Those who see it as a symbol of their culture/heritage refuse to acknowledge its racist associations, or even think that it could be potentially offensive.

Those who see it as a symbol of a legacy of systemic racism and oppression in this country refuse to acknowledge the cultural uniqueness of the south, and that it can have benign associations underneath it all.

My take? If you fly it, you're trash. But you're allowed to be trash in the United States.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Clearly this thread shows that it means different things to different people.

Those who see it as a symbol of their culture/heritage refuse to acknowledge its racist associations, or even think that it could be potentially offensive.

Those who see it as a symbol of a legacy of systemic racism and oppression in this country refuse to acknowledge the cultural uniqueness of the south, and that it can have benign associations underneath it all.

My take? If you fly it, you're trash. But you're allowed to be trash in the United States.[/QUOTE]

A bit touchy, aren't we?
 
Interesting you posted this as I saw 3 confederate battle flags flown from pickup trucks on Wednesday the 13th. One was at a McDonalds, oddly enough. And I'm not talking just a small flag in the back of a window- each one was a large flag, on a flagpole, mounted in the center of the bed.

Granted, I live in Brighton, MI which is adjacent to Howell,MI ( a historically racist tainted community ) but I haven't seen this kind of curious display for over 15 years. I thought it must be some kind of secret white pride holiday or something.

I walked into McDonald's behind a black man who paused and shook his head as we both passed the truck in front of the entrance. I have to say that I experienced a Mykevermin type of white-man -guilt standing next to this guy in McD's. Fortunately, I repressed the urge to insult him further by offering him a job or promotion and to pay his mortgage simply because he was black and whitey had kept him down for the last 300 years. I thought he was man enough to deal with it and realize he was superior to the bigotry he'd just experienced.

In any case, while I agree with one's freedom to be a jackass and fly the confederate flag, let's not fool ourselves into thinking it stands for State's rights. The only respectable thing about those people is that they, for the most part, admit to being racists. It's the closet racists that are the real problem for the black man - the ones offering to help him because he's black. That's even more nefarious and insulting.
 
Well, maybe down south it stands for states rights. For the most part, every person I have ever met that has flew that flag in PA was a racist. I mean, cmon, the south isn't going to rise again in PA no matter what.:)
 
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