XBOX 360 Jasper Chip Discussion

[quote name='decrot']Falcons are unreliable. they are prone to have the e74 failures. and its above the accepted 2% failure rate.[/QUOTE]

Link with official numbers from an official source please? If you are just going to post unofficial/forum/youtube stuff, I can do exactly the same for Jasper. Many in this very thread with Jasper machines are complaining about frequent freezing/lockups/etc.

And, with the problems some Jasper owners are reporting in this thread, it is likely runs of Jasper have problems also. Because all complex items manufactured at a cheap cost will have defective runs. Just the way it goes.

Besides, if Falcon's design truly was unreliable Microsoft would not have designed their "repair" platform Opus around it. Common sense.
 
its a love hate relationship
got my falcon a few years back...rrod on me twice
its starting to act up again...lag...frozen screen/machine
its upsetting to hav a faulty machine
its like buying an umbrella thats made out of paper
buying a clock that turns counter clockwise
buying a flashlight that doesnt lite up becuz the bulb is of a dark color (iono...dont ask)
you get my point?
sigh...sad =[
but i love my xbox360...getting my achievements
just playing games in general
contemplating if i should get the new jasper
or just continue getting my xbox "fixed"
 
[quote name='SumOG']its a love hate relationship
got my falcon a few years back...rrod on me twice
its starting to act up again...lag...frozen screen/machine
its upsetting to hav a faulty machine
its like buying an umbrella thats made out of paper
buying a clock that turns counter clockwise
buying a flashlight that doesnt lite up becuz the bulb is of a dark color (iono...dont ask)
you get my point?
sigh...sad =[
but i love my xbox360...getting my achievements
just playing games in general
contemplating if i should get the new jasper
or just continue getting my xbox "fixed"[/QUOTE]

If you buy a Jasper and it breaks, the same place that has repaired your Falcon will be repairing your Jasper. And as you can see from this thread, like all consoles Jasper breaks, too.
 
I'm replacing a console with a build date of June '06 that has been perfectly reliable with a new Jasper built June '09, not because it RRoD, but because I'm switching everything over to HDMI to eliminate a 60hz Scan line that I can't seem to get rid of when my new cable box is plugged in at the same time the Xbox is. And to clean up the rats nest of cables....

I also know 4 other people with 06 early 07 consoles that have not had problems at all. But I also know a few people on their second and third consoles...
 
[quote name='Ruined']However, later design revisions such as Falcon, Opus, and Jasper have both solid design & manufacturing that result in most units being very reliable. That being said, there is still going to be many units that break due to the nature of the product category. So don't expect that just because you bought a Jasper it means it is bulletproof... Kinda scratch my head when people wouldn't buy a Falcon or upgraded Falcon to Jasper when the Falcon design proved reliable (unlike Jasper, which is relatively new).[/QUOTE]

There is really no evidence that Falcons are any more reliable than its predecessors, and yet reams of internet posters complain about their Falcons breaking. If I may quote you:

[quote name='Ruined']Link with official numbers from an official source please?[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='Ruined']I think its important some realize that when you mass manufacture a complex item for a cheap cost, you are going to have defective units and units that break over time no matter how good the design is. That is simply how it works when you need to deliver an expensive and complex item for a low price.

Bottom line is that the original XBOX 360 design and manufacturing was bad; the failure rate was MUCH too high and there clearly were issues both on the design side and manufacturing side. However, later design revisions such as Falcon, Opus, and Jasper have both solid design & manufacturing that result in most units being very reliable. That being said, there is still going to be many units that break due to the nature of the product category. So don't expect that just because you bought a Jasper it means it is bulletproof... Kinda scratch my head when people wouldn't buy a Falcon or upgraded Falcon to Jasper when the Falcon design proved reliable (unlike Jasper, which is relatively new).

To the person looking for the Jasper Elite, my advice is don't bother & buy a Falcon. Not worth the hassle when Falcon is proven reliable and Jasper is not proven any more reliable with several owners experiencing various issues as documented here. How much would it suck if you waited and spent all that time looking for a Jasper Elite and then it broke on you? It is a very real possibility given the nature of console hardware.[/QUOTE]

I first bought a Falcon thinking, "Okay, this is gonna be reliable. The % chance of 3RL went down significantly." So I got a used unit that had MFG date 4-15-08. I tested out the unit, and everything was fine. I brought the piece of sht home, plugged everything in, and got 3RL. I got to open the thing and could see that the same issue as the old Xbox 360 mobos. Did the thermal paste and had someone do a reflow (I don't own a heat gun). Didn't last that long. Baking lasted longer. (I would have done a careful reflow but, like I said, I don't own a heat gun).

This being said, Falcon's are in no way as reliable as to a Jasper.

If I got a 3RL on one of those, then chances of getting a defective Falcon is really high. I have not seen any info on a Jasper 3RL except an open unit.

Sold the Falcon, replaced with a 1 month old Jasper. I get the freezing in NBA Live 09.

No freeze last night while I played Halo 3 Easy Campaign from beginning to end. That was about 5 hours.

Maybe the 360 can't handle some intensive graphics like NBA Live 09. PS2 had issues in loading NBA Live 09 too - suspected intensive graphics.
 
NOTE: Xbox 360 DOES Freeze when Cortana does her vision thing to Spartan (blue seethru vision). I know loading is involved - or is this intensive graphics or intentional system freeze? Takes a sec to get the Xbox HUD up while this is happening,
 
[quote name='pete5883']There is really no evidence that Falcons are any more reliable than its predecessors, and yet reams of internet posters complain about their Falcons breaking. If I may quote you:[/QUOTE]

Dude, there's all this hype of Falcons being better. There's the improved chip design. There's the built-in HDMI. There's the new power supply. There just isn't enough proven system tests posted online about the 360. Prob is there aren't enough tests about the system. Microsoft probably hid their QA tests.
 
I wish they would do something about that huge as power brick... who's brilliant idea
signature_deepthakur.jpg
:)
 
[quote name='Ruined']Link with official numbers from an official source please? If you are just going to post unofficial/forum/youtube stuff, I can do exactly the same for Jasper. Many in this very thread with Jasper machines are complaining about frequent freezing/lockups/etc.

And, with the problems some Jasper owners are reporting in this thread, it is likely runs of Jasper have problems also. Because all complex items manufactured at a cheap cost will have defective runs. Just the way it goes.

Besides, if Falcon's design truly was unreliable Microsoft would not have designed their "repair" platform Opus around it. Common sense.[/QUOTE]
No such thing as "official numbers". there aren't any official numbers for xenon failures.
all you need to do is look around forums, especially xbox.com. you'll see people including myself getting these errors.
here's an article about it
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/17/is-your-xbox-360-an-e74-victim/4

"The E74 error seems to be related to video problems. It's occasionally caused by a faulty AV cord, but more often than not, the solder on the ANA/HANA (in HDMI models) scaling chip has come loose."

you see hdmi models? yea, that'll be a falcon.

google e74 and falcons together.
 
[quote name='decrot']No such thing as "official numbers". there aren't any official numbers for xenon failures.
all you need to do is look around forums, especially xbox.com. you'll see people including myself getting these errors.
here's an article about it
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/17/is-your-xbox-360-an-e74-victim/4

"The E74 error seems to be related to video problems. It's occasionally caused by a faulty AV cord, but more often than not, the solder on the ANA/HANA (in HDMI models) scaling chip has come loose."

you see hdmi models? yea, that'll be a falcon.

google e74 and falcons together.[/QUOTE]

I actually did do a search for falcons and jaspers 3RL about a month ago. I did see a jasper 3RL, but the unit was open. The thing is I google e74 3RL with falcon or jasper, and info does come up for a falcon, but almost nothing for a jasper except for freezing.
 
[quote name='decrot']No such thing as "official numbers". there aren't any official numbers for xenon failures.
all you need to do is look around forums, especially xbox.com. you'll see people including myself getting these errors.
here's an article about it
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/17/is-your-xbox-360-an-e74-victim/4

"The E74 error seems to be related to video problems. It's occasionally caused by a faulty AV cord, but more often than not, the solder on the ANA/HANA (in HDMI models) scaling chip has come loose."

you see hdmi models? yea, that'll be a falcon.

google e74 and falcons together.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect, HDMI does not neccessarily mean Falcon. Through early, mid, and even late 2007 Microsoft manufactured a ton of 90nm CPU/90nm GPU consoles with HDMI, starting with the first batch of Elites. These are as susceptible to failure as the launch consoles due to too much heat overwhelming the HSF. Falcon consoles are not as susceptible due to the reduced heat output from the 65nm CPU, resulting in the new 360 HSF being adequate to cool the entire system.

And like I said before ,Jasper has just landed and already we are seeing discussion of a lot of freezing and people with problems. A year from now it is likely we will see a similar amount of complaints as you see with Falcon now.
 
[quote name='pete5883']There is really no evidence that Falcons are any more reliable than its predecessors, and yet reams of internet posters complain about their Falcons breaking. If I may quote you:[/QUOTE]

Oh, finding official links to back up my claims is very easy. Microsoft through Gates & Bach has stated several times they felt the design changes they made for Falcon made the console more reliable. i.e.:
http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2007/jul07/07-05WarrantyExtentionPR.mspx
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7174333.stm

In terms of unofficial testing/links, one of the major sites (IIRC engadget) in 2008 bought 100 Falcon XBOXes from various retail stores to test their reliability and found little to no bad consoles. This is in stark contrast to 2006/early 2007 where a stunningly large amount of 360s were DOA out of the box.

And on top of that, Microsoft's official repair platform to fix RROD for customers experiencing it on 2006/2007 consoles is the Opus platform - essentially a Falcon stripped of HDMI so it would fit in their old case. All of this points to Microsoft both officially stating and implying by actions that the Falcon platform is a reliable one. There is no magic involved here, all that needed to be done was to generate less heat and remove that heat more efficiently to prevent the mobo from warping and breaking solder joints... Falcon was the first 360 design to accomplish that.

All that in mind, no platform is going to be failure-proof. And that is why we are seeing reports of Jasper failure in this thread.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Oh, finding official links to back up my claims is very easy. Microsoft through Gates & Bach has stated several times they felt the design changes they made for Falcon made the console more reliable. i.e.:
http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2007/jul07/07-05WarrantyExtentionPR.mspx
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7174333.stm

In terms of unofficial testing/links, one of the major sites (IIRC engadget) in 2008 bought 100 Falcon XBOXes from various retail stores to test their reliability and found little to no bad consoles. This is in stark contrast to 2006/early 2007 where a stunningly large amount of 360s were DOA out of the box.

And on top of that, Microsoft's official repair platform to fix RROD for customers experiencing it on 2006/2007 consoles is the Opus platform - essentially a Falcon stripped of HDMI so it would fit in their old case. All of this points to Microsoft both officially stating and implying by actions that the Falcon platform is a reliable one. There is no magic involved here, all that needed to be done was to generate less heat and remove that heat more efficiently to prevent the mobo from warping and breaking solder joints... Falcon was the first 360 design to accomplish that.

All that in mind, no platform is going to be failure-proof. And that is why we are seeing reports of Jasper failure in this thread.[/QUOTE]

are you really using a quote from MS and Gates to back up your argument?

and the fact is, a large majority of hdmi units are falcons. since xbox has hdmi problems, and falcons having hdmi on them, it makes the falcons unreliable. you got that? its not a xenon or falcon issue, its the xbox having poor hdmi parts, which the falcon contains.

fact is, the xbox is poorly designed, whether its a xenon, falcon, zephyr whatever. you'll probably see jaspers with huge failure rates in about a year when people start to rack up hours on them.
 
[quote name='decrot']are you really using a quote from MS and Gates to back up your argument?[/quote]

Someone asked for official claims, so I posted them. I don't see how forum/blog posts and google searches are any more credible. But if they are, it works for Jasper too:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jasper+e74&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
http://www.8bitjoystick.com/2009/03...ailures-are-on-the-rise-and-full-of-fail.html
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/745122


There are simply less reports since Jasper has been out for much shorter time period.

and the fact is, a large majority of hdmi units are falcons. since xbox has hdmi problems, and falcons having hdmi on them, it makes the falcons unreliable. you got that? its not a xenon or falcon issue, its the xbox having poor hdmi parts, which the falcon contains.
Click to expand...

Poor HDMI parts? The primary issue 360 suffered from in its early years was the GPU detching from the motherboard due to warping causing a breaking of the solder joints. Occasionally other parts can have the same issue (CPU, HANA/ANA video encoder), but by and large the GPU was the main culprit. While Falcon does have the same GPU, the ambient temperature for the case is much lower than launch consoles due to the much cooler CPU, and the HSF is much beefed up as well. Early Elite HDMI units did not have the lower-heat CPU which resulted in ambient temperatures too high for the cooling to handle.

Again its not rocket science. All you need to do is ensure that the chips remain cool enough that they do not damage/warp/break the components they are mounted on/with. This can be done by producing cooler chips, using more efficient heatsinks, or both. The 90nm XBOX 360 GPU is not uncommon in the high temperatures it produces; around the same time Nvidia's G80 GPU produced even more heat, but there was no problem thanks to a beefy HSF being used to cool it. To fix XBOX 360 via Falcon/Opus, they did the same thing - added a beefy HSF while at the same time lowering ambient temps by producing cooler CPUs.

fact is, the xbox is poorly designed, whether its a xenon, falcon, zephyr whatever. you'll probably see jaspers with huge failure rates in about a year when people start to rack up hours on them.
Click to expand...

The design of Falcon, Opus, Jasper is perfectly fine as there is enough cooling to remove the heat generated. The design for Xenon & Zephyr is problematic as the cooling is insufficient to prevent motherboard/solder damage. However, regardless of design the XBOX 360 is being and always will be manufactured with lowest cost being one of the highest priorities. When that is the case, there is going to be defects in your manufacturing. However, some defects are acceptable if it means that is necessary to sell the console. Sure, Microsoft might be able to manufacture the X360 with little to no defect rates, but it would cost twice as much for that level of QA and fine tolerance parts. So you'd have a very reliable console that would fail in the market due to high price.

The true fact is that Americans and many other countries want the best value for their dollar, they don't want to spend $600+ on a videogame console. There is no way to deliver a complex device like the XBOX 360 with a high value without there being a significant amount of defects. It is simply the nature of manufacturing highly complex electronics at affordable prices. And even when those extensive steps are taken sometimes there are still failures due to unexpected results in the final silicon.

PS3 is suffering the same thing right now with BDROM drives failing (NO DISC) and YLOD (Yellow Light of Death). Even with the high pricetag on that console ($500-$600 at launch), you still can't guarantee or expect true reliability.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ylod&search_type=&aq=f
 
[quote name='Ruined']Oh, finding official links to back up my claims is very easy. Microsoft through Gates & Bach has stated several times they felt the design changes they made for Falcon made the console more reliable. i.e.:
http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2007/jul07/07-05WarrantyExtentionPR.mspx
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7174333.stm[/quote]
:lol: I could also find Peter Moore's "things break" interview where he claims the quality of the 360's of the time were good enough. Just because a MS PR person says it, doesn't make it true.
In terms of unofficial testing/links, one of the major sites (IIRC engadget) in 2008 bought 100 Falcon XBOXes from various retail stores to test their reliability and found little to no bad consoles. This is in stark contrast to 2006/early 2007 where a stunningly large amount of 360s were DOA out of the box.
Click to expand...
I'm intrigued, do you have a link to this? "Works for the 3 hours we tested it for" is very different from "reliable console."

And on top of that, Microsoft's official repair platform to fix RROD for customers experiencing it on 2006/2007 consoles is the Opus platform - essentially a Falcon stripped of HDMI so it would fit in their old case. All of this points to Microsoft both officially stating and implying by actions that the Falcon platform is a reliable one.
Click to expand...
Just because MS sends these back out doesn't make them reliable. There are more than a few people out there that are on their 3rd, 4th, 5th+ console.

All that in mind, no platform is going to be failure-proof. And that is why we are seeing reports of Jasper failure in this thread.
Click to expand...
But the 360 is much more failure-prone than other systems. And that is why we even see more Jasper failures than PS3 and Wii failures on these boards.
 
With all of this info coming out about the reliability of a machine that we know HAS A HISTORY of being unreliable, now, we are just unsure about the Xbox. There is something that I am beginning to consider about Jasper - how long has the model already been out (and the fact that there aren't any rumors of a new model after Jasper).

Even the Falcon had a rumors of revision upon release. And Jasper has been out for almost a year. And man, I did a search just to make sure, and I couldn't find a 3RL as of yet.
 
[quote name='pete5883']
And that is why we even see more Jasper failures than PS3 and Wii failures on these boards.[/QUOTE]

That's because no one gives a shit about the PS3 and especially the fucking Wii.

And i'm on my 3rd 360 and 2nd ps3. Both launch consoles to begin with, but i've played my 360 about 10x as much, so fuck it. Both consoles have their benefits and weaknesses, but damn it i'd never give up my 360 for anything! Microsoft has done right by me in that department. Sony is just... blah.
 
[quote name='christen25'][...]There is something that I am beginning to consider about Jasper - how long has the model already been out (and the fact that there aren't any rumors of a new model after Jasper).[/QUOTE]
I always assumed the next revision to be Valhalla (CPU and GPU on a unified chip). I also assume this'll be out whenever Natal launches. Whether or not Microsoft would actually totally redesign the 360 for Valhalla is of course up for debate (same with Valhalla itself, heh).
 
[quote name='gar3']I always assumed the next revision to be Valhalla (CPU and GPU on a unified chip). I also assume this'll be out whenever Natal launches. Whether or not Microsoft would actually totally redesign the 360 for Valhalla is of course up for debate (same with Valhalla itself, heh).[/QUOTE]

That's right... I heard about the word Valhalla and Xbox 360. I just don't remember where. But a single chip that'll do both? Just turn that into a handheld 360 with online play via 3G.
 
[quote name='pete5883']I'm intrigued, do you have a link to this? "Works for the 3 hours we tested it for" is very different from "reliable console."[/quote]

Don't have the link offhand, it was either engadget or gizmodo when they wanted to see if things improved when Falcon hit retail stores. If you google for a while you can probably find it. Regarding your latter statement, it does demonstrate an improvement in QC and reliability if there are less DOA consoles.

Just because MS sends these back out doesn't make them reliable. There are more than a few people out there that are on their 3rd, 4th, 5th+ console.
Click to expand...

Sure, mainly because Opus was not introduced until just recently, and when they run out of stock of the Opus boards they may send back old Xenons to keep repair time normal. There is no doubt that the first two revisions of the console are problematic, but Falcon and onward have been as solid as any other console.

But the 360 is much more failure-prone than other systems. And that is why we even see more Jasper failures than PS3 and Wii failures on these boards.
Click to expand...

Wii's internal hardware is basically last-gen so it should not even be a part of the discussion; there is nothing complex, powerful, or cutting edge about it, thus it is easier to manufacture without issue.

PS3 does have several complaints on this board, youtube, and other forums. Its two problems are YLOD (yellow light of death) and early Blu-ray drive death. However, there are less complaints because less people own PS3 as it is the least popular console. i.e. if PS3 and 360 had identical failure rates right now, there would still be a lot more 360 reports because more of them sold; plus, you have the added reports of those with pre-Falcon chipsets breaking. Despite the PS3's price, though, it still has a significant amount of defects out there.

There were a several million of pre-Falcon 360s sold an IMO all of those are destined to fail eventually if played a lot. Most of the people who suffered RROD/failure have a launch or pre-Falcon console. While there are also some Falcon and Jasper failures, that is to be expected as I stated earlier - but those numbers are FAR lower than pre-Falcon numbers. With complex cutting-edge devices, it is very difficult to manufacture them at a cheap price without allowing for some defects in the process. And, even at premium price PS3 has seen aforementioned failures as well.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Wii's internal hardware is basically last-gen so it should not even be a part of the discussion; there is nothing complex, powerful, or cutting edge about it, thus it is easier to manufacture without issue.[/quote]
:rofl: Nice try. I hate to break it to you, but after 4 years, there's nothing cutting edge about the 360 anymore, either. Yet they still have major issues manufacturing them.

PS3 does have several complaints on this board, youtube, and other forums. Its two problems are YLOD (yellow light of death) and early Blu-ray drive death. However, there are less complaints because less people own PS3 as it is the least popular console. i.e. if PS3 and 360 had identical failure rates right now, there would still be a lot more 360 reports because more of them sold; plus, you have the added reports of those with pre-Falcon chipsets breaking. Despite the PS3's price, though, it still has a significant amount of defects out there.
Click to expand...
It has defects, yes, but more importantly it has less defects proportionally. I think 360 has twice the install base that PS3 does, and I think we all know that the ratio of broken 360s to broken PS3s is a lot higher than 2:1.
 
[quote name='pete5883']:rofl: Nice try. I hate to break it to you, but after 4 years, there's nothing cutting edge about the 360 anymore, either. Yet they still have major issues manufacturing them.


It has defects, yes, but more importantly it has less defects proportionally. I think 360 has twice the install base that PS3 does, and I think we all know that the ratio of broken 360s to broken PS3s is a lot higher than 2:1.[/QUOTE]

Wow, what a splendid example of talking out of one's ass with zero evidence.

First, lets see a reliable source indicating that Microsoft is currently "still having major issues" manufacturing XBOX 360s.

Second, lets see another reliable source showing the ratio of PS3 defect rate being lower than Falcon/Jasper defect rate. In the part of my post you unsurprisingly failed to quote, I already stated that all pre-Falcon chipsets are destined to failure - those are the badly designed ones, not Falcon forward. Everything prior to Falcon did not have enough cooling for heat being emitted, nothing magical going on there.

If you walk into a store and buy a shiny new 360 it is impossible to get anything other than Falcon or Jasper, and regardless of how old 360 is it is still far more complex and cutting edge than Wii ever was or will be. So your other points are moot.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Wow, what a splendid example of talking out of one's ass with zero evidence.

First, lets see a reliable source indicating that Microsoft is currently "still having major issues" manufacturing XBOX 360s.

Second, lets see another reliable source showing the ratio of PS3 defect rate being lower than Falcon/Jasper defect rate. In the part of my post you unsurprisingly failed to quote, I already stated that all pre-Falcon chipsets are destined to failure - those are the badly designed ones, not Falcon forward. Everything prior to Falcon did not have enough cooling for heat being emitted, nothing magical going on there.

If you walk into a store and buy a shiny new 360 it is impossible to get anything other than Falcon or Jasper, and regardless of how old 360 is it is still far more complex and cutting edge than Wii ever was or will be. So your other points are moot.[/QUOTE]
you want a reliable source? im on my 3rd falcon 360, and im still on my first wii.
thats a 3:1 ratio. booyah.

but seriously, get MS balls out of your mouth. all that matters is the failure rate individuals are experiencing, which a lot of users here are experiencing such problems.
 
MS did do some significant changes to their console. I had the choice to give Falcon another try or to go Jasper, and I picked the latter. And a lot of people who have an old Xbox are still going for the latter because, like me, they're tired of all the probs that they are having - or might have in the future.

Anyone have any info on the temperature decrease on the 360 since MS put the 65mm chips? Or did the size change just make the old heatsinks more efficient? I also heard there's an external fan with a temperature sensor... that would be useful.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Wow, what a splendid example of talking out of one's ass with zero evidence.[/QUOTE]
Look, at this point both of us are doing exactly this. The difference is I have some anecdotal evidence on my side, and you don't.

If you walk into a store and buy a shiny new 360 it is impossible to get anything other than Falcon or Jasper, and regardless of how old 360 is it is still far more complex and cutting edge than Wii ever was or will be. So your other points are moot.
Click to expand...
Wii's have been reliable since launch. Right now, the 360's technology is as outdated as Wii's was at launch. If your criteria for "cutting edge" technology is how current it is, then your logic falls apart.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top