Xbox360: Backwards Compatability? Are you psyched?

I'm very concerned too, I also have a fairly large Xbox game collection. I want to keep it! I really hope the Xbox 360 will eventually be compatible with all Xbox games...
 
I don't have an article link to support this statement but I'm sure someone can dig it up. I believe I heard the problem with backwards compatiblity has something to do with them paying royalty fees to nvidia if the 360 is backwards compatible. Its all about money, if its backwards compatible they have to pay royalty fees because the 360 uses a different graphics card. This is why they were very non commital about bc before E3 and now say it will have bc for "popular" titles. I'm getting the 360 either way but I would be much happier if it was bc out of the box.
 
Not really some huge concern for me, I have no problems with keeping my xbox around until they sort it all out with patches or whatever.
 
[quote name='Pratt75']I don't have an article link to support this statement but I'm sure someone can dig it up. I believe I heard the problem with backwards compatiblity has something to do with them paying royalty fees to nvidia if the 360 is backwards compatible. Its all about money, if its backwards compatible they have to pay royalty fees because the 360 uses a different graphics card. This is why they were very non commital about bc before E3 and now say it will have bc for "popular" titles. I'm getting the 360 either way but I would be much happier if it was bc out of the box.[/QUOTE]

This fails to take into consideration that there are legal ways of producing an emulator or other compatible bit of code to substitute for material owned by an unfriendly source. If Microsoft choose to fund a 'black box' effort it could be cheaper than the level of payment Nvidia is inclined to demand. Since Microsoft is capable is tying Nvidia up in court for years and Nvidia is completely aware of that, it is likely they'll settle for the level of payment Microsoft views as reasonable.
 
[quote name='epobirs']This interview offer some good insight into the situation. They're hoping to run all Xbox1 games but aren't prepared to make that promise before it's true. Sounds reasonable to me. Is anyone going to have a hissy fit because they can't play the execrable Aquaman?

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000597043723/[/QUOTE]

No but there are some other "bad games" (titles that both got bad reviews and sold poorly) that I enjoyed and found unique - like Toejam and Earl III, Vexx, Azurik: Rise of Perathia, New Legends, and Kakuto Chojin. I'm sure every person has a few "bad games" that they enjoy to play, heck someone might even enjoy Aquaman! ;)
 
[quote name='mcwilliams132']Xbox 1 titles will have to be recompiled (and subsequently re-purchased)...can't run natively

http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996[/QUOTE]

Ever hear the phrase ' a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?' This is especially true in journalism because it can lead to incorrect conclusions. The writer of that piece doesn't understand the FX!32 approach at all but has made assumptions based on what little she or whoever fed her the idea did understand.

Having to repurchase old games is not backward compatibility any more than the availability of some SNES titles on the GBA makes it backward compatible to that console. Microsoft knows this and wouldn't set themselves up for a virtual lynch mob situation. The Engadget interview linked above was completely in line with my predictions.

The average game has a huge data to code ratio. For every hundred megabytes of data there may be all of one megabyte of code. The code is the only portion that needs to be translated to the new platform. If you do this in advance you can store the translated code and place that on the Xbox hard drive to be used along with the data on the existing game DVD. The trick is having a low level control program that recognizes games and find the appropriate code profile to use instead of the code on the disc. Once the game is booted from the profile instead of the disc everything is pretty automatic from there.

This does require a time investment in getting each title tested and verified. Enough so that it would be impossible to have the whole llibrary done in time for launch, especially since the emulator has to be tweaked every time they come across a game that uses a low level hardware technique the emulator doesn't know about. As time goes on there will be fewer of those surprises and the procedure will go faster but for getting started there is no choice but to play favorites. The games with the most ongoing sales and XBL traffic will get the treatment first.
 
[quote name='Ruined']No but there are some other "bad games" (titles that both got bad reviews and sold poorly) that I enjoyed and found unique - like Toejam and Earl III, Vexx, Azurik: Rise of Perathia, New Legends, and Kakuto Chojin. I'm sure every person has a few "bad games" that they enjoy to play, heck someone might even enjoy Aquaman! ;)[/QUOTE]

Tough, the market votes with its wallets. Highly successful games get priority over turkeys cherished by a few.
 
[quote name='62t']So they are porting some Xbox1 title and calling it backward compatable?[/QUOTE]

No, I think they are writing code for each game or something so when you pop in your copy of Halo it will play in conjunction with a file stored on the hard drive...
 
If Xbox360 has no backward compatible, I'll stop buying any xbox game from now on, as I'm afraid xbox360 won't play them, and then my old xbox1 might stop working and I won't even able to buy a replacement when they stopped manufacture it.

Xbox just lost me.. PS3 I'm coming..
 
Before this thread spirals out of control, here are the facts:

* XBOX360 will have backwards compatibility with XBOX1
* You will not have to "re-buy" games, it will play your original XBOX1 discs
* The titles that will be initially backwards compatible at launch are unknown, but the popular titles will likely be at a minimum
* Microsoft is working to make all titles backwards compatible over time
* However Microsoft cannot guarantee at this point that all titles will work
* Over time, Microsoft will add more titles for backwards compatibility until all titles that can possibly be BC are made BC, via both XBOX Live and another unknown distribution method
* All in all its too early to say exactly which titles will work initially, which will work eventually, and which won't work. Remember, PS2 also had some PS1 titles that it could not run.
* Therefore Microsoft is not talking specifics at this point so that they can live up to what they do say.

sources:

Post-E3 Interview with MS including a lot of detail on BC:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000597043723/

Most accurate E3 summary of BC abilities:
http://news.com.com/A+gaggle+of+new+games+for+Xbox+360/2100-1043_3-5709353.html?tag=st_lh
 
BC isn't big for me. If i play a PS1 game i usually pull out my nifty PSOne because some games don't run the same on the PS2. Some actually worse.

I don't think BC is as big an issue for us hardcore gamers as it is for those who don't already own xbox. For those people who buy a 360, M$ is screwing them out of dozens and dozens of good xbox titles.
 
From what I have been reading on several message boards, it seems that the Xbox 360 may only be able to handle certain Xbox games because Microsoft will have to rework the older games in order for them to run. So if you do get backwards compatibility, it will be through either some type of large Xbox Live download, or through buying an extra disc with the updated files.
 
The thing is...yeah keeping your xbox around so you can play the games is fine, but what are you going to do if it breaks a few years down the line? Good luck trying to find a replacement or have it repaired...you will basically have a huge library of games that are worthless.
 
[quote name='Chrono81']The thing is...yeah keeping your xbox around so you can play the games is fine, but what are you going to do if it breaks a few years down the line? Good luck trying to find a replacement or have it repaired...you will basically have a huge library of games that are worthless.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't worry about it overmuch. The majority of people running stuff on MAME never owned the arcade machine hardware but the ROMs run just fine. Regardless of whether Xbox 360 offer full backward compatibility the homebrew market will keep working at it. As PCs become progressively more powerful it come down solely to a reverse engineering issue since the sheer horsepower required will have become trivial.
 
[quote name='BARRICADE_28']BC isn't big for me. If i play a PS1 game i usually pull out my nifty PSOne because some games don't run the same on the PS2. Some actually worse.

I don't think BC is as big an issue for us hardcore gamers as it is for those who don't already own xbox. For those people who buy a 360, M$ is screwing them out of dozens and dozens of good xbox titles.[/QUOTE]

I find that a bit odd. The list of PS1 games that don't run perfectly is very short and the PS2's drive offers reduced loading times over the PS1. The only reason I have a PS1 was to connect it to the downstairs TV when it had become unlivably upstair during the summer but I didn't want to move my PS2. Given more favorable weather the PS2 would always get the job of running PS1 games.
 
I don't have an xBox myself, so I don't need to worry about my old games working.....BUT it would be nice to be able to buy some back catalog games on the cheap when i get a 360.
 
sorry if this is a repost-- from major nelson:

No, you do not need to recompile your Xbox games
Posted: May 19, 2005 @ 3:23 pm (12 hours, 14 minutes ago) By: Mobile Nelson

Ok, let’s stop this right now. There is some serious wrong information floating around, so I need to clear this up. I grabbed my favorite PR dudes, and they are saying what I was telling a few of you in email:

“We’re not sure where this came from, and is incorrect. At launch, Xbox 360 will be backward compatible with the top Xbox games. Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new ‘version’ — your original games will work on Xbox 360.”

Case closed. Now, let’s get back to that Killzone demo discussion..

So sayeth Larry. So sayeth the flock.
 
I've got a quick question on the all but dead side discussion regarding the current Xbox. If they stopped receiving the chips for it, how long do you guys think it'll be before all of the current systems are gone? I have been holding out for a $100 price point, but now I am thinking it may never get that low unless I find a clearence or something after most of them are gone. Also, is the possibility of a post-E3 price drop gone now or could something still be announced?
 
[quote name='chickenhawk']I've got a quick question on the all but dead side discussion regarding the current Xbox. If they stopped receiving the chips for it, how long do you guys think it'll be before all of the current systems are gone? I have been holding out for a $100 price point, but now I am thinking it may never get that low unless I find a clearence or something after most of them are gone. Also, is the possibility of a post-E3 price drop gone now or could something still be announced?[/QUOTE]

There are a ton of XBox systems out there, I don't think they'll be "hard to find" for a long, long time. They may not even bother with the $100 price until after the 360 is out (if at all). It wouldn't surprise me if they never did it.

Still, all the sites have picked up on what Apossum posted about above...it looks like they are going to have pretty much every game playable as far as backwards compatibility, they are just working on the popular ones first.
 
I'm glad MS has the goal to get all games BC. I am considering preordering again now due to their recent statements.
 
I don't understand why they can only make certain games BC first, then others later...like a series of firmware updates? any one got a hypothesis or know something about this?
 
[quote name='Apossum']I don't understand why they can only make certain games BC first, then others later...like a series of firmware updates? any one got a hypothesis or know something about this?[/QUOTE]

Yeh. It's just a matter of time and testing, really.

For instance, let's say they are working on perfect Halo 2 emulation now. When they get that done, then a lot of other games will probably work because of their efforts. However now they must have testers go through and test all of Halo 2 to make sure there are no major glitches. Then they have to test all the games that work as a result of Halo 2 working. Then they can move on to the next major game.

I assume for a game to work, it will have to either have a modified .XBE or a profile that can create a modified .XBE on the fly for that game. To do this, the XBOX360 must have DiscID info for the game that is being played, and the appropriate profile/modified XBE file for that game on the hard drive so the emulator knows what to do. Therefore, since there are hundreds of XBOX games, Microsoft essentially will have to create hundreds of small-sized "profiles" or XBE files, one for every game. They also should test every game. This is a very time consuming process, so they might not be able to create profiles/XBEs and test every single XBOX1 game before launch. So, likely as more games are tested and verified, their profiles will be uploaded to XBOX Live and will be available for download (and likely available on some physical media as well, like an exhibition disc for those who don't have live).

It's not going to be a clean emulation on Microsoft's end in that XBOX360 can just automatically play the disc using an emulation program - they will most likely have to create specific profiles/XBEs for every game released on XBOX. This will be invisible to the end user, however it requires a lot of work and testing on their part, so it will take time and therefore not all games may be available at launch.

In summary, emulation on XBOX360 for XBOX1 games will be similar to that of PS2 for PS1 games for the end user. However "behind the scenes" there will be a lot more going on to get the XBOX1 games to run on XBOX360, so there may be some delay in getting the whole XBOX1 library up to speed.
 
[quote name='BIG5']Great, most likely, every game I care about won't run on 360.[/QUOTE]

Nah, I'm sure most games will run eventually, MS is just being conservative and doesn't want to set a time and date for when every game runs. The fact that they are comitted to making the whole library works is what counts, as because in this case its likely just a matter of time and testing until everything works. There will probably be a few exceptions like there was with ps2 playing ps1 games, but with MS' approach I see no reason for the vast majority of games to work just fine. If they can emulate Halo 2 and DOA3, they can emulate pretty much anything on the system.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']...it looks like they are going to have pretty much every game playable as far as backwards compatibility, they are just working on the popular ones first.[/QUOTE]

While that sounds fine and good. I don't think it will happen. The really big games will work but then I expect MS to drop the work in making sure the lesser known titles do.
 
[quote name='usickenme']While that sounds fine and good. I don't think it will happen. The really big games will work but then I expect MS to drop the work in making sure the lesser known titles do.[/QUOTE]

No they won't. MS is out for blood and want to win. They want to create trust and whatnot with gamers. That is why they are being conservative and not just saying "backwards compatible" like they could have. Not to mention that the big titles are the ones that stress the system. If they can make them run, the lesser ones will be cake. Just a matter of testing and tweaking them all.
 
Why does it seem like Microsoft is handling BC as an afterthought. Feels like after everyone started whining (and rightly so), they cooked up this long, involved plan that should have been in place so that most/all games were supported before the system even comes out.
 
personally, i don't care much about backwards compatability as i don't plan on throwing out my xbox once i get the 360 and i am sure for at least 5 years it will be very easy to find a working xbox system cheap once the 360 comes out

furthermore, chances are your old games are going to have saves tied to your old xbox so you are going to be wedded to it anyway at least for certain games

the unexceptional video footage of the 360 games is much more worthy of concern
 
I think the fact that most people are missing is that MS is doing 100% emulation. They don't have the luxury of having a 'system on a chip' like PS2 did for thier PS1 compatibility because they don't own the Nvidia Video/system chipset patents as well as Intel P3 CPU patents. They basically have to emulate the system kernel (which is based of Windows 2000) as well as create a video 'wrapper' that will translate the nvidia specific hardware specific functions to something that the ATI video hardware or 3Ghz CPU can work with.

This functionality has been proven before when 3Dfx had thier 'Glide' API which was proprietary & a team of developers created a Glide to DirectX translator (specifically for an N64 emulator; forget which though). It was done and done to quite a bit of success.

As with any emulation, the system specs will need to be several times higher (due to not natively supporting the hardware functions). With that in mind, I think the 360 could handle it if done right. The system has 4x the CPU speed and 8x the RAM. They just need time to iron out the inevitable glitches that come with 1st gen emulation.
 
[quote name='CappyCobra']I think the fact that most people are missing is that MS is doing 100% emulation. They don't have the luxury of having a 'system on a chip' like PS2 did for thier PS1 compatibility because they don't own the Nvidia Video/system chipset patents as well as Intel P3 CPU patents. They basically have to emulate the system kernel (which is based of Windows 2000) as well as create a video 'wrapper' that will translate the nvidia specific hardware specific functions to something that the ATI video hardware or 3Ghz CPU can work with.

This functionality has been proven before when 3Dfx had thier 'Glide' API which was proprietary & a team of developers created a Glide to DirectX translator (specifically for an N64 emulator; forget which though). It was done and done to quite a bit of success.

As with any emulation, the system specs will need to be several times higher (due to not natively supporting the hardware functions). With that in mind, I think the 360 could handle it if done right. The system has 4x the CPU speed and 8x the RAM. They just need time to iron out the inevitable glitches that come with 1st gen emulation.[/QUOTE]

That example is a bit different. GLide was a game oriented subset of OpenGL. Every function had a nearly direct equivalent in Direct3D and it was just a matter of mapping one to the other and translating the command argument structure. (Microsoft was part of the OpenGL committee back then and the two systems had much in common.) Both APIs were well documented.

The task with emulating the XGPU is more difficult. Many games bypss Direct3D and go direct to the silicon in way neither encouraged by Nvidia or openly documented. In the process of making games run much of the XGPU microcode must be reverse engineered and done in a way that won't violate legal precedent regarding such things. This gets costly and time intensive, which is why the emulation may only handle a small portion of the Xbox library at launch and be updated via downloads and discs later on.
 
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']Why does it seem like Microsoft is handling BC as an afterthought. Feels like after everyone started whining (and rightly so), they cooked up this long, involved plan that should have been in place so that most/all games were supported before the system even comes out.[/QUOTE]

It's acombination of two things. First, companies love to be coy to generate publicity. Second, the emulator cannot begin in earnest until they have a supply of final chipsets. Those could be very limited at first. Which would you prefer? That they supply the emulation project or developers creating new Xbox 360 games?
 
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']Why does it seem like Microsoft is handling BC as an afterthought. Feels like after everyone started whining (and rightly so), they cooked up this long, involved plan that should have been in place so that most/all games were supported before the system even comes out.[/QUOTE]

Not at all. The main reason the E3 reports came out messed up was because the reporters were not listening and putting their own spin on what MS said.

CNET, however, got the story right at E3, and said the same thing that MS is saying now:

http://news.com.com/A+gaggle+of+new+games+for+Xbox+360/2100-1043_3-5709353.html?tag=st_lh

"At Monday's event, Microsoft also announced plans to make all games from
its previous console compatible with the upcoming Xbox 360. However, few
details were given regarding how, or when, updated support for Xbox titles
would be achieved. Microsoft representatives did say they would start with
more popular titles such as "Halo," then move down the line."


The reason MS can't say "everything will definitely work" now is because the system isn't even done. The games at E3 were running on Alpha kits at 25% of the speed of the final console. (The same thing happened with XBOX1 at E3) They haven't even gotten the beta kits ready, so how could they ensure that their emulation is going to work for all games? I'm sure most games will work fine in the end, it's just a matter of time.
 
Thanks for the response to my question Ruined :) so what yer saying is a modified .xbe file would load the files on the disc in a different order so the emulator could handle it?
 
[quote name='Apossum']Thanks for the response to my question Ruined :) so what yer saying is a modified .xbe file would load the files on the disc in a different order so the emulator could handle it?[/QUOTE]

an XBE = XBox Executable. You can see an example of what one contains here:
http://www.xbox-linux.org/docs/xbe.html
It's similar to an .EXE file on your PC.

When an MS rep said that games would have to be recompiled, one news site took this as meaning that users would have to buy new versions of games. That was of course, incorrect. What it likely meant is that Microsoft could have to make new XBOX360-compiled XBE files, either dynamically via profiles or manually for each game, in order to help the console run each particular game properly. There is a lot of stuff an XBE contains in it that would pertain to this as you can see from the above link. And of course, the original XBE files on XBOX1 discs are compiled for the X86 platform (like Intel Pentium, AMD Athlon) while the XBOX360 runs on the PPC platform (like PowerMac G5), which are incompatible. An easy way to think of it is that XBOX1 discs are compiled for PC while the XBOX360 is a Mac. Therefore in order to get XBOX1 discs to run on the Mac, they have to recompile the executable files so they are in mac language; but 99% of the data that takes up most of the space will work fine, because it is just graphics/sound data (textures, maps, sound, music, etc) that is platform independent. So these new XBE files will take up a very small amount of space (1mb to 5mb each), and might even be able to be dynamically generated via text profiles to take up even less space. In other words, the new XBEs would not take any significant amount of space away from the 20GB XBOX360 hard drive - even if you had 200 modified XBOX1 XBE files on your hard drive it would take less than 1GB. Yet, though they are small they will take MS some time to tweak and create, as they are not simply just emulating a PC on a Mac, they are actually recreating the executable file and tweaking the code (i.e. the brain) of each game one by one. This will, of course, get easier as MS finishes the emulation of the most complex games, like Halo2 and DOA: Ultimate, as they can use the same general techniques they used to get those games working to get simpler games working.

How it would work:
1) The user inserts their XBOX1 disc into XBOX360
2) The XBOX360 will detect what XBOX1 game was inserted via DiscID
3) The XBOX360 will look for the correct profile or modified XBE file for this specific game on the XBOX360 hard drive
4) If the profile or modified XBE is not there, it will download it off XBOX Live
5) If the profile or modified XBE is there, it will execute the modified XBE, or dynamically create a modified XBE from the profile which will then be executed
6) The modified game code will run off the modified XBE bypassing the XBOX1 game's original on-disc XBE, but the XBOX360 would look to the actual XBOX1 disc for game assets such as the graphics, menus, textures, maps, sound effects, music, etc (the items that take up the vast majority of the disc space).

All of this, of course, would be done seamlessly in the background after the user inserts his original XBOX1 disc into the drive. If a profile/xbe for your XBOX1 game is not preloaded on the XBOX360 at launch, the XBOX360 could connect to Live and download the appropriate profile/xbe. MS will also make BC updates (if necessary) on physical media as well for those who don't have internet.

You could probably imagine, though, why this is so time consuming and complex and why MS doesn't just want to say "full backwards compatibility at launch" period, in case there is a few games they just can't get to run without glitches for some reason (as was the case with PS2 to PS1 BC), or in case they can't quite get every XBOX game emulated by launch.
 
From Gamespot:

RUMOR #2: The Xbox 360 won't be backward compatible after all.

Source: British industry news site Gamesindustry.biz.

The official story: See below.

What we heard: Microsoft carefully parsed its words about the Xbox 360's backward compatibility by saying it will be "backward-compatible with top-selling Xbox games." So when Gamesindustry.biz published an article revealing the console's radically different hardware couldn't support current-gen Xbox games, accusation perfidy in Redmond began to fly. "The solution Microsoft has reached is apparently to recompile current-gen Xbox games so that they can be played on the 360," says G'biz. "First on the list, it says, are the best-selling Halo titles." However, Xbox owners were the only ones freaking out. The usually recalcitrant Microsoft bypassed its external public relations company, telling GameSpot directly that, "Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new 'version.' Your original games will work on Xbox 360."

Bogus or not bogus?: Bogus.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Monsta Mack']Hmm, wonder if there will be any problems with gamesaves?
and guess I sitll gota re-beat Ninja Gaiden... doh.[/QUOTE]

Well that I would expect, simply because even if your XBOX breaks and you need to buy another XBOX, you can't get the NG savegame off the HD.
 
ok, so if these files are going to be dowloaded off Live what are they going to do about people without Live? Most people who own an xbox don't have it.
 
[quote name='Apossum']Ahhh...didn't think of the whole PC/Mac thing.[/QUOTE]

yeah, x86 versus PPC seems to be the biggest hurdle.
 
Microsoft representatives did say they would start with
more popular titles such as "Halo," then move down the line."

Tha's $uck cuz i am not into HALO :(
 
[quote name='Masterkyo']Microsoft representatives did say they would start with
more popular titles such as "Halo," then move down the line."

Tha's $uck cuz i am not into HALO :([/QUOTE]

Most if not all will be emulated in time, they are starting with Halo because its the most complex and popular game, what they learn from it they will be able to apply to other less complex games.
 
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