[quote name='mykevermin']The fact that you disregarded race shows that you don't know much about the criminal justice or prison systems.
The fact that you expressed your opinion that redemption is impossible shows that you have a biased notion of justice.
The fact that you disregarded the context of criminal justification (in the case if the Menendez brothers) is contradictory to the arguments you put forth about how deserving Williams is of the death penalty; namely, his indirect culpability as one of the founders of the crips.
The fact that you disregarded the context of criminal justification shows that you lack the legal understanding of concepts such as "justifiable homicides."
Your argument is full of postmortem speculation - the "let god handle him" argument. That's not the role of the state to determine, and its uncertainty deplorable, when you consider that you're letting your *opinion* about what happens to people when they die inform your opinion of whether or not someone *should* die.
You wrote a very thorough and coherent argument, but one ultimately full of holes, speculation, and misinformation. Let me give you my nutshell question: How will society benefit from this man's death?[/QUOTE]
I think maybe some of my arguments/comments aren't coming through as I intended, or I'm just writing bad ones, either of which are entirely possible because I prefer to stay away from internet arguments. This is a broad statement and not meant to sound like a reaction to you specificially, or more importantly, this forum.
Anyway...
The main point I was trying to say is that consequences can't be avoided. He was found guilty for crimes he probably committed. I admit freely I don't have all the info and I have no way of knowing it aside from reading a LOT of information I don't want to wade through, and even then there's no way to tell if it is biased or not.
First off, I'm probably wrong about race. But I'm tired of things being seen as only in terms of race. Going with your hypothetical, what would be the situation if Tookie was white? I'm just curious to know. Or Asian, or Hispanic, or from another country, etc etc? When do we see people as simply people? That's probably hopelessly idealistic on my part. I'm sure this is directly related to the fact that I'm white and really don't have any sort of basis to say anything about racial inequality aside from what I've read in classes.
Secondly, I wasn't saying redemption isn't possible. In fact, I didn't say that at all, and if it sounded like that, I apologize. I was saying it is a PERSONAL thing, that it remains between you and whatever dieties your faith believes in. Isn't this what everyone complains about with religion anyway? How there are people complaining that the word Christmas endorses Christianity and simultaneously denies other religious? My point is that if he has achieved redemption, then it is up to him and his faith. It is not based on earthly, corporeal realms - it is something entirely ethereal. Since that is the core of most post-life arguments in most religions, then what would happen to his soul would be up to those forces.
And if that's the case, how could we judge it at all? Probably about as well as we can judge a man to die.
Again, case in point, if he became Christian, God handles him. Man doesn't. It doesn't matter what man does to him, God has ultimate control. I can't speak for other religions because I know I am woefully under-educated on them. He dies, he's good, he goes to heaven. He's bad, he goes to Hell. If you believe that sort of thing.
So I'm not trying to say he is beyond rehabilitation/redemption, I'm saying man's judgements and actions imparted onto Tookie are completely insignificant to a godlike figure. Again, theif on the cross comes to mind.
So my point is that all these peopel screaming about "redemption!" need to sit back and realize that in this reality, it is completely secondary to what happens once you die. I remember a lot of arguments towards Schiavo supporters along these lines - "If you love her and feel she is a CHristian and bla bla, why would you keep her chained to this world when you think she'll reach heaven?" Same idea here. Stop passing it off as a huge banner to wave your own personal agendas around. Schiavo shouldn't be shoveled off anymore as an icon for Christianity anymore than Tookie should be for African Americans. That'll never happen though.
If Tookie is honestly redemptive - again, something I can't measure and neither can anyone else, his supporters included - then what happens to him doesn't matter. His soul isn't ours to govern. When I hear pastors and other persons of faith say something like "I know I'm going to Heaven when I die," I can't help but think how arrogant that sounds. We don't get to decide, God does (assuming he exists), and the same applies here.
To go along with that, I was saying that the Bible states you still follow the laws of man. From what I understand there were multiple appeals and attempts to exhaust all methods of law. Whether or not those attempts were met with biased rejection, I don't know. I have to assume it was carried out properly. I guess that sounds biased, and it sounds like I think the justice system is flawless. It clearly isn't and if I sounded like that, I apologize, because it's not. But you still have to play by the rules. I realize it's skewed here and there but that's not something I can change, and if this guy is innocent then, again, his redemption/soul/whatever will be clarified in that light and his post-death experience will reflect that.
-None- of the above should declare/augment/determine if a man should die. None of it. That is what I'm saying - it's all something out of our hands. In the end, if there is postmortem experience to be had, then it happens beyond our control. That was my point. Redemption is personal, it is not meant to be a martyred ideal to spread across a representative group, and it is not a reason to say he's innocent/guilty.
Thirdly, I said he was not responible for his gang's actions, but I did say it counted, and you are right, it is the same as the Menendez brothers. So I concede that and it becomes negligable.
Fourth, yea, I probably do lack the understanding of lots of things. So do a lot of people around here. I believe thats why I used the word if. You certainly seem out to get me for not understanding things I full well made clear I probably don't. Isn't that what this board is for? For opinions? That's NOT giving me carte blanche to say anything without reason, but I'm just pointing out that I'm probably about as well informed as the majority of users here, and less so than some others who have made it their specialization.
Fifth, will it better humanity? I'm not at liberty to say that. In the short run it is going to cause, possibly, riots and things like that. In the long run it will perpetuate unrest, distrust, and a lot of social problems. And it will definitely bring race relations to the forefront for some time. And it will be a precedent for a long while in court systems. And people will talk about it. That much I know.
Had he stayed alive it would appease several persons and not infuriate a lot of agonized people. It probably wouldn't have affected the victims' families too much because I hope they have found solace (although nothing like this has happened to me so I can't say what sort of mentality they live with, nor do I know much about what they are feeling now except some sort of closure, whether or not it is justified beyond simply killing Tookie) in that they feel he's behind bars. It would come off as a huge triumph for African Americans, and like it or not that would piss off lots of White Supremacists. And religious nuts would be all over it claiming it was a breakdown of justice and that "hoo boy, God gunna get'em sooner 'r later."
Sounds like a lose lose lose situation to me.
I guess all I can hope for is that his books and his message outlive his crimes and that it saves people from making the same mistakes.
And that maybe gang rivalry/warfare bullshit will finally begin to recede. But it didn't happen with Tupac and Biggie so I can't see it happening here.
Also the followup hypothetical is probably "how do you think it should be handled," and all I can say is I don't know and I'm appreciative that I don't have to know. That's not my position. And I don't see much of a reason to play the what if game on that one because it's going to make my head hurt like hell.
I'm not sure any of this helps my argument but I'm really bored at work.
ing point, and I'll discuss it. Until then, your pedantic banter is the only thing I have to focus on.
