the end of used videogames?
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lordxixor101
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I really think this is going to backfire in the long run on game companies.
Game companies always see used sales as stripping a new sale (much like if you download a game for free, you would have paid $60 for that same game). This just isn't true. I think many people buy used games because of the price difference (especially with 20% off coupons or B2G1 sales that you often don't get with new games). Most of the time (me personally) if there is just a couple dollar difference between new and used, I'm buying the new copy.
Not only this, there are many day 1 purchasers that buy day 1 because they know they can beat the game, and sell it to recoup a portion of their money. You may not jump on that $60 game if you know you will only be able to sell it for $15 in 2 weeks, since there are options other gamers won't get. This may get you to skipt the game until it's a bargain game.
Game companies always see used sales as stripping a new sale (much like if you download a game for free, you would have paid $60 for that same game). This just isn't true. I think many people buy used games because of the price difference (especially with 20% off coupons or B2G1 sales that you often don't get with new games). Most of the time (me personally) if there is just a couple dollar difference between new and used, I'm buying the new copy.
Not only this, there are many day 1 purchasers that buy day 1 because they know they can beat the game, and sell it to recoup a portion of their money. You may not jump on that $60 game if you know you will only be able to sell it for $15 in 2 weeks, since there are options other gamers won't get. This may get you to skipt the game until it's a bargain game.
This isn't really a HUGE deal; however, when it becomes a huge deal (one of the Epic guys mentioned not including a final boss on a used copy of a disc), expect game sales to be hurt big time.
Even though I love Gears of War, I think if they made the final boss a pay-for DLC on used copies of the game, I would boycott out of principle. But you can play Gears 2 without those 4 maps so it's not really game changing.
Even though I love Gears of War, I think if they made the final boss a pay-for DLC on used copies of the game, I would boycott out of principle. But you can play Gears 2 without those 4 maps so it's not really game changing.
Dr Mario Kart
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Used games are not the problem. The recent resurgence of scapegoating used sales as well as the new, innovative money grabs is due to the next-gen business model being unsustainable. The costs are too high and they're having to go out of their way to find alternate revenue streams.
The majority of games lose money now, with estimates running from 4 out of 5 (The Escapist), to more than 70% (former Sony Europe Chairman Chris Deering)
Sales are up!
but arent keeping up with costs
Developers need to go smaller so that they can actually profit without producing a chart topper, and without using the profits from one game to fund a string of failures while looking for the next mega-hit.
Since the writing of the article that these charts came from, the new found success of portables at the expense of home consoles in Japan in particular, have really done this to some extent. Despite that, developer failure and consolidation in recent years has been accelerating at quite a disturbing pace.
The majority of games lose money now, with estimates running from 4 out of 5 (The Escapist), to more than 70% (former Sony Europe Chairman Chris Deering)
This is the real problem (old data, imagine how much worse the problem is now):
Sales are up!
but arent keeping up with costs
Developers need to go smaller so that they can actually profit without producing a chart topper, and without using the profits from one game to fund a string of failures while looking for the next mega-hit.
Since the writing of the article that these charts came from, the new found success of portables at the expense of home consoles in Japan in particular, have really done this to some extent. Despite that, developer failure and consolidation in recent years has been accelerating at quite a disturbing pace.
The problem is that those budgets are used to make crappy videogames. They need to listen to their market analysts, or hire some new ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Xbox_360
Is anyone here shocked that any of those games are on there? I bet we wouldn't be shocked at the list of 'worst selling video games' either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Xbox_360
Is anyone here shocked that any of those games are on there? I bet we wouldn't be shocked at the list of 'worst selling video games' either.
Dr Mario Kart
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Listening to market analysts are only going to get people copying whatever is hot, and in general not branching out and experimenting. You wouldnt have that next great surprise hit. This is partially why there are so many shooters/action games.
Bad games SHOULD be made, but they shouldnt cost a lot of money. This is why there are budget developers that flock to whichever system has the highest marketshare and lowest dev costs.
Take Nintendo for instance. They've had their hits and misses over the years, but in general, Miyamoto tells us what we want to play, rather than the other way around.
Bad games SHOULD be made, but they shouldnt cost a lot of money. This is why there are budget developers that flock to whichever system has the highest marketshare and lowest dev costs.
Take Nintendo for instance. They've had their hits and misses over the years, but in general, Miyamoto tells us what we want to play, rather than the other way around.
willardhaven
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Perhaps I'm off base here but I always figured that if MS and Sony weren't profiting so much in other departments, the home console market would have crashed again.
Well, except for the Wii, I hear it's turning a small profit.
Well, except for the Wii, I hear it's turning a small profit.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Listening to market analysts are only going to get people copying whatever is hot, and in general not branching out and experimenting. You wouldnt have that next great surprise hit. This is partially why there are so many shooters/action games.
Bad games SHOULD be made, but they shouldnt cost a lot of money. This is why there are budget developers that flock to whichever system has the highest marketshare and lowest dev costs.
Take Nintendo for instance. They've had their hits and misses over the years, but in general, Miyamoto tells us what we want to play, rather than the other way around.[/quote]
I don't know, I kind of disagree. Gears of War wasn't really a copy of anything (Killzone MAYBE, but that's stretching) and everyone seemed pretty convinced it'd be a hit. Same thing with Bioshock, everyone that is heavily involved in the gaming industry knew it would be big once they saw a bit of it. Assassin's Creed, Fallout 3, and Mass Effect too. Those are all (except Fallout) new IPs; and most people rightly assumed they would be huge.
A lot of the big budget flops tend to be games that ARE copying other games.
This was just a quick Google search but: http://www.gemaga.com/2007/12/11/the-worst-big-budget-games-of-2007
Were any of those expected to sell tons of copies? If not, then why spend so much money on making them?
Also I haven't bought any Nintendo stuff since Nintendo 64 :\ Regardless of what Miyamoto says, I think video game technology should advance rather than adapt.
Bad games SHOULD be made, but they shouldnt cost a lot of money. This is why there are budget developers that flock to whichever system has the highest marketshare and lowest dev costs.
Take Nintendo for instance. They've had their hits and misses over the years, but in general, Miyamoto tells us what we want to play, rather than the other way around.[/quote]
I don't know, I kind of disagree. Gears of War wasn't really a copy of anything (Killzone MAYBE, but that's stretching) and everyone seemed pretty convinced it'd be a hit. Same thing with Bioshock, everyone that is heavily involved in the gaming industry knew it would be big once they saw a bit of it. Assassin's Creed, Fallout 3, and Mass Effect too. Those are all (except Fallout) new IPs; and most people rightly assumed they would be huge.
A lot of the big budget flops tend to be games that ARE copying other games.
This was just a quick Google search but: http://www.gemaga.com/2007/12/11/the-worst-big-budget-games-of-2007
Were any of those expected to sell tons of copies? If not, then why spend so much money on making them?
Also I haven't bought any Nintendo stuff since Nintendo 64 :\ Regardless of what Miyamoto says, I think video game technology should advance rather than adapt.
Dr Mario Kart
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Developers dont generally think to themselves, this game I'm making is shit. They really are trying. All of your examples exemplify my point, that your best option is to gravitate towards shooters and open world action games. However, thats not to say that there isnt advancement within the genre. Copying doesnt have to be exact. Its more of a popularization of the genre.
Gears - Every 3rd person shooter since RE4 have adopted the locked over the shoulder mechanic
Fallout 3 - take a beloved RPG franchise and turn it into a shooter RPG
Mass Effect - Shooter RPG
AC: Open World Action Game. Only reviewed average. Pushed through by the insanely good marketing at Ubisoft.
A few years ago every analyst secured development for the PS3 on the grounds that they would continue the success of the PS1/PS2. They were wrong.
Copies that did well: Saints Row 2. Most people figure its better than GTA4. This is what all the open world clones strive to do.
Gears - Every 3rd person shooter since RE4 have adopted the locked over the shoulder mechanic
Fallout 3 - take a beloved RPG franchise and turn it into a shooter RPG
Mass Effect - Shooter RPG
AC: Open World Action Game. Only reviewed average. Pushed through by the insanely good marketing at Ubisoft.
A few years ago every analyst secured development for the PS3 on the grounds that they would continue the success of the PS1/PS2. They were wrong.
Copies that did well: Saints Row 2. Most people figure its better than GTA4. This is what all the open world clones strive to do.
No I know, but somewhere down the line somebody has to look at 'Frontlines: Fuel of War' and say ".. sorry guys, this sucks." I suppose another problem could be that by the time a game gets far enough in the development cycle to tell if it will be any good, they've already spent enough money so that they want to finish it and at least recoup a little bit of it from sales.
A lot of those things on that URL I posted of big budget games though.. why would they spend that much money on them? Almost of all them seemed to be niche products or bigger clones than the games I mentioned earlier.
I would love to find somewhere that shows the biggest budget games that made the least money in comparison. Time to Google..
A lot of those things on that URL I posted of big budget games though.. why would they spend that much money on them? Almost of all them seemed to be niche products or bigger clones than the games I mentioned earlier.
I would love to find somewhere that shows the biggest budget games that made the least money in comparison. Time to Google..
willardhaven
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I just want to see a 16-bit renaissance via online distribution. Games like MM 9 command a small budget and profitable sales.
DKC 4, Sonic 4, Mega Man X9 EWJ 4... please.
DKC 4, Sonic 4, Mega Man X9 EWJ 4... please.
Publishers need to realize that used games actually benefit them. Without being able to trade games in, many customers wouldn't be able to afford new games. A majority of reserves at Gamestop follow game trades, as the customer doesn't know what to blow their credit on. There are so many customers that show up to mdinight launches early to trade all their shit away, and if they couldn't trade their stuff in, there wouldn't be a sale.
It's also worth noting that if somebody knows what game they want, they'll most likely buy a new copy. I've had copies of Fallout 3, Fable 2 and Gears 2 sitting used already, and a majority of customers ignore them, opting for the new copy instead. It's usually the browsers who came in with some trade in credit to blow, have never heard of the game, and want to make use of their Edge card that end up buying the used copy.
By the time used game sales can take a big chunk out of profits, the new copies are usually gone, and the amount of used stock is taking up a decent amount of shelf space. The soccer mom that comes in will never go for the used copy, always the new, so the used copy of Kung Fu Panda will sit there until a cheapass with a kid comes in and decides to grab it. Those 30 used copies of GRAW/Gears/GTA for the 360? Yeah those will take away from the new sales of the game, but quantities of the new copies of those games are pretty slim, and I'm sure Ubisoft/Epic/Rockstar have made enough money off of them to not give a shit.
It's also worth noting that if somebody knows what game they want, they'll most likely buy a new copy. I've had copies of Fallout 3, Fable 2 and Gears 2 sitting used already, and a majority of customers ignore them, opting for the new copy instead. It's usually the browsers who came in with some trade in credit to blow, have never heard of the game, and want to make use of their Edge card that end up buying the used copy.
By the time used game sales can take a big chunk out of profits, the new copies are usually gone, and the amount of used stock is taking up a decent amount of shelf space. The soccer mom that comes in will never go for the used copy, always the new, so the used copy of Kung Fu Panda will sit there until a cheapass with a kid comes in and decides to grab it. Those 30 used copies of GRAW/Gears/GTA for the 360? Yeah those will take away from the new sales of the game, but quantities of the new copies of those games are pretty slim, and I'm sure Ubisoft/Epic/Rockstar have made enough money off of them to not give a shit.
[quote name='TimPV3']Publishers need to realize that used games actually benefit them. Without being able to trade games in, many customers wouldn't be able to afford new games. A majority of reserves at Gamestop follow game trades, as the customer doesn't know what to blow their credit on. There are so many customers that show up to mdinight launches early to trade all their shit away, and if they couldn't trade their stuff in, there wouldn't be a sale.
[/quote]
Exactly- I always use good GS trade-in promos to fund my next new release. I hate buying used. I always get the games with the manuals that look like they were used to soak up water at some point in their life.
Also- the current life cycle for games is broken without the used market. Games aren't distributed the same way as say.. Books or movies- and they become too difficult to find new after only a few months on the shelf.
[/quote]
Exactly- I always use good GS trade-in promos to fund my next new release. I hate buying used. I always get the games with the manuals that look like they were used to soak up water at some point in their life.
Also- the current life cycle for games is broken without the used market. Games aren't distributed the same way as say.. Books or movies- and they become too difficult to find new after only a few months on the shelf.
The Crotch
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[quote name='prence']Gears of War wasn't really a copy of anything...[/quote]Never played it, but I've heard that the PS2's Kill.Switch was kinda same-ish.
magus83
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[quote name='Casiotech']
would be nice to see gamestop go under.... Offering $12 for a $60 game even if it's SEALED. what a joke.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I just think that's their main concern is that gamestop is so successful and they want a piece of the action. They didn't express much concern when they were funcoland and ebgames was around back in the day. I really wish that there were an abundance of gamerush, and gamecrazy's, to compete with them, since they are much better stores than gamestops.
would be nice to see gamestop go under.... Offering $12 for a $60 game even if it's SEALED. what a joke.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I just think that's their main concern is that gamestop is so successful and they want a piece of the action. They didn't express much concern when they were funcoland and ebgames was around back in the day. I really wish that there were an abundance of gamerush, and gamecrazy's, to compete with them, since they are much better stores than gamestops.
FloodsAreUponUS
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The only thing gears of war did was take the kill.switch formula and make it awesome, and good riddance to used games I say.
Buying used makes me feel dirty most of the time.
Buying used makes me feel dirty most of the time.
[quote name='The Crotch']Never played it, but I've heard that the PS2's Kill.Switch was kinda same-ish.[/quote]
absolutely, I made the connection IMMEDIATELY after playing gears for the first time. I was like, 'wait did Namco make this or Epic???' It's obviously a killswitch rip.
absolutely, I made the connection IMMEDIATELY after playing gears for the first time. I was like, 'wait did Namco make this or Epic???' It's obviously a killswitch rip.
AppleQueso
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[quote name='FloodsAreUponUS']The only thing gears of war did was take the kill.switch formula and make it awesome, and good riddance to used games I say.
Buying used makes me feel dirty most of the time.[/quote]
take a look back at this post, because I think it accurately sums up my thoughts:
[quote name='nbballard']Also- the current life cycle for games is broken without the used market. Games aren't distributed the same way as say.. Books or movies- and they become too difficult to find new after only a few months on the shelf.[/quote]
I bought a ps2 very late in its lifespan, like several months ago actually. If you had your way, FloodsAreUponUs, my library would be limited to a very small handful of greatest hits games that are still sitting on store shelves. I'd miss out on a LOT of the truly worthwhile games for the system.
Buying used makes me feel dirty most of the time.[/quote]
take a look back at this post, because I think it accurately sums up my thoughts:
[quote name='nbballard']Also- the current life cycle for games is broken without the used market. Games aren't distributed the same way as say.. Books or movies- and they become too difficult to find new after only a few months on the shelf.[/quote]
I bought a ps2 very late in its lifespan, like several months ago actually. If you had your way, FloodsAreUponUs, my library would be limited to a very small handful of greatest hits games that are still sitting on store shelves. I'd miss out on a LOT of the truly worthwhile games for the system.
Anexanhume
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For me, it's simple. Don't want me to buy used? Make new affordable.
The end of used games would probably get me out of gaming all together. Very few games are worth more than $10-20 to me, and even fewer games are worth keeping around after beating.
The only reason I play as many games as I do (which is still many fewer than most here) is because of sites like Goozex. I can get games for little cost out of pocket and get rid of my games after beating them for generally fair amounts of points to put towards other games.
Of course I realize that sucks for publishers, so I can't blame them for wanting to find ways to force us to buy new rather than used. But I'm just not enough into gaming to pay new prices for games I couldn't resell/trade.
The only reason I play as many games as I do (which is still many fewer than most here) is because of sites like Goozex. I can get games for little cost out of pocket and get rid of my games after beating them for generally fair amounts of points to put towards other games.
Of course I realize that sucks for publishers, so I can't blame them for wanting to find ways to force us to buy new rather than used. But I'm just not enough into gaming to pay new prices for games I couldn't resell/trade.
Dr Mario Kart
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Full digital distribution is an inevitability. Anyone who supported for-pay downloading of any content, from full games to DLC, will be directly to blame. Secondarily, making developers, publishers and manufacturers push for more and more power, more and more costs, by buying their high end products, thus facilitating the arms race.
The only way to stay at retail going forward is for them to get their costs under control.
The only way to stay at retail going forward is for them to get their costs under control.
Rave Child
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Being a true cheap ass, I almost never buy new games. First of all, i have no current gen systems, so it's pretty difficult to find the games I want new. Second, I really don't see the point in buying something as soon as it comes out when you can just wait a year (or less) and get it for about half the original price.
Also, I'm a massive hoarder, and I never sell or trade my used games. I did it once and it made me feel awful, and I've since repurchased those titles. If I'm not dumping my used games somewhere, there's no way I'd be willing to spend $50-$60 on a new title. If that were the case, I'd just have to wait for prices to drop for Greatest Hits titles, and the like.
Also, I'm a massive hoarder, and I never sell or trade my used games. I did it once and it made me feel awful, and I've since repurchased those titles. If I'm not dumping my used games somewhere, there's no way I'd be willing to spend $50-$60 on a new title. If that were the case, I'd just have to wait for prices to drop for Greatest Hits titles, and the like.
I don't buy used games at all (basically my entire PS3, Wii and PS2 and XBox collections are clearance games), so it doesn't make a difference to me but I don't like the idea. Especially for those that buy gutted games from EB/Gamestop and could have the code used/removed.
[quote name='Casiotech']absolutely, I made the connection IMMEDIATELY after playing gears for the first time. I was like, 'wait did Namco make this or Epic???' It's obviously a killswitch rip.[/quote]
good so im not the only one who noticed how much the game favored killswitch. i dont mind people taking something someone else did and expading upon it but it sucks that theyre always saying the game is so innovative and new when it does borrow heavily from killswitch.
good so im not the only one who noticed how much the game favored killswitch. i dont mind people taking something someone else did and expading upon it but it sucks that theyre always saying the game is so innovative and new when it does borrow heavily from killswitch.
bread's done