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1945-1998 - A history of nukes in animated art


#1 thrustbucket   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   7942 Posts   Joined 13.4 Years Ago  

thrustbucket

Posted 21 July 2010 - 03:20 PM

Found this horrifying and fascinating at the same time. Put into context like this, my jaw drops.

A Japanese artist mapped out on a time line all the nuclear explosions in our history.

I would have prefered to embed youtube but the video is longer than 10 minutes.

It's no wonder the people in SoCal are so damn weird to the rest of us (no offense Ram).

#2 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   37008 Posts   Joined 13.4 Years Ago  

Posted 21 July 2010 - 04:09 PM

Sacramento is in southern california.
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#3 thrustbucket   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   7942 Posts   Joined 13.4 Years Ago  

thrustbucket

Posted 21 July 2010 - 04:14 PM

Oh I thought it was Ram always talking about Orange County. Must have him mixed up with someone else.

#4 unused   I'm not very active since 2011. I may return. CAGiversary!   485 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 21 July 2010 - 04:58 PM

Nukes are amazing things, really. The ultimate display of humanity's intellect and idiocy in one catastrophic, fantastic event.

#5 TurboChickenMan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   399 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

TurboChickenMan

Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:32 PM

These are pretty horrifying... :-|




#6 Sarang01   My Use Name Is Saber CAGiversary!   5585 Posts   Joined 13.5 Years Ago  

Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:38 PM

We should never have dropped the bomb in Japan. I would rather we did the invasion and lost more lives. The only thing worse then the A-Bomb is the N-Bomb.
Whoever drops that bomb EVER deserves an instant death penalty as long as you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not a big proponent of the Death Penalty mind you either. But consider the Neutron Bomb and it's effects.
You want to see a cringe inducing bit on the aftermath of the A-Bomb in Japan watch "Barefoot Gen". Whoever says hand drawn animation can't look realistic hasn't seen it. Showing the effects afterwards just make me cringe.
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#7 IRHari   COME ON! CAGiversary!   3815 Posts   Joined 9.5 Years Ago  

Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:44 PM

We should never have dropped the bomb in Japan. I would rather we did the invasion and lost more lives. The only thing worse then the A-Bomb is the N-Bomb.


Why do you hate our troops?

#8 unused   I'm not very active since 2011. I may return. CAGiversary!   485 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:28 AM

When Sarang said N-Bomb I though he meant the n-/word/

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are things I can see the rationale behind. Given infinite time to think about the actions, it might have turned out differently. Alas, in war, you briefly think and then act.

You don't think a lot and briefly act :D

#9 TurboChickenMan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   399 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

TurboChickenMan

Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:44 AM

I'm pretty that sure the Japanese would have surrendered if the bomb had been demonstrated offshore or in an unpopulated area. No need whatsoever to kill thousands of civilians TWICE.

#10 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6196 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:06 AM

Why do you hate our troops?


My grandfather would have been part of a skeleton crew on an ancient dinghy (more or less) designated to ram into mines/other water defenses, so yeah...

I am not exactly objective but to people who said the Japanese would have toppled sooner rather than later before it came to invasion I tell them that if they didn't cave after the first bomb I wouldn't have held my breath.

#11 TurboChickenMan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   399 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:41 AM

Even if they hadn't surrendered, I kinda doubt that they would've been so foolish as to mount another attack against the U.S. I don't see why there would be any need to completely wipe them out. The U.S. could have just pulled back and defended Japan's local enemies.

#12 cindersphere   Running on no sleep CAGiversary!   1618 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

cindersphere

Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:49 AM

"There are time when we must have the courage to do extraordinary things, like jumping eyes closed off the veranda of the Kiyomizu Temple" - Hideki Tojo

Is your hated of the bomb being dropped because of the loss of life or the threat of nuclear annihilation. Because we have bombs that do not use fission that have a blasting radius equal to the strength of the fat man and little boy.

Just curious.
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#13 MSI Magus   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8156 Posts   Joined 13.9 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:51 PM

These are pretty horrifying... :-|



The first anime is Barefoot Gen which is a really great(if artistically out dated)movie. People should give it a watch as well as Grave of the Fireflies which is another tear jerker anime about this subject. Both really are amazing movies...just as I said be prepared to cry.

When the rest of the world is crazy it just does not pay to be sane! - Captain Lerner
Government is the enemy, until you need a friend - Bill Cohen


#14 Knoell   Achievement Unlocked CAGiversary!   2584 Posts   Joined 8.1 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:53 PM

I'm pretty that sure the Japanese would have surrendered if the bomb had been demonstrated offshore or in an unpopulated area. No need whatsoever to kill thousands of civilians TWICE.


After six months of intense strategic fire-bombing of 67 Japanese cities the Japanese government ignored an ultimatum given by the Potsdam Declaration. By executive order of President Harry S. Truman the U.S. dropped the nuclear weapon "Little Boy" on the city of Hiroshima on Monday, August 6, 1945,[1][2] followed by the detonation of "Fat Man" over Nagasaki on August 9.


http://en.wikipedia....ma_and_Nagasaki

Learn your facts, the bombs werent dropped one right after another, they had 2-3 days to surrender, and they didnt. Also Nagasaki and Hiroshima were both militarized targets.

Hiroshima in World War II
At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of some industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb.[23][24]
The center of the city contained several reinforced concrete buildings and lighter structures. Outside the center, the area was congested by a dense collection of small wooden workshops set among Japanese houses. A few larger industrial plants lay near the outskirts of the city. The houses were constructed of wood with tile roofs, and many of the industrial buildings were also built around wood frames. The city as a whole was highly susceptible to fire damage.
The population of Hiroshima had reached a peak of over 381,000 earlier in the war, but prior to the atomic bombing the population had steadily decreased because of a systematic evacuation ordered by the Japanese government. At the time of the attack the population was approximately 340,000–350,000.[5] Because official documents were burned, the exact population is uncertain.

Nagasaki in World War II
The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.
In contrast to many modern aspects of Hiroshima, almost all of the buildings were of old-fashioned Japanese construction, consisting of wood or wood-frame buildings with wood walls (with or without plaster) and tile roofs. Many of the smaller industries and business establishments were also situated in buildings of wood or other materials not designed to withstand explosions. Nagasaki had been permitted to grow for many years without conforming to any definite city zoning plan; residences were erected adjacent to factory buildings and to each other almost as closely as possible throughout the entire industrial valley.
Nagasaki had never been subjected to large-scale bombing prior to the explosion of a nuclear weapon there. On August 1, 1945, however, a number of conventional high-explosive bombs were dropped on the city. A few hit in the shipyards and dock areas in the southwest portion of the city, several hit the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works, and six bombs landed at the Nagasaki Medical School and Hospital, with three direct hits on buildings there. While the damage from these bombs was relatively small, it created considerable concern in Nagasaki and many people—principally school children—were evacuated to rural areas for safety, thus reducing the population in the city at the time of the nuclear attack.
To the north of Nagasaki there was a camp holding British Commonwealth prisoners of war, some of whom were working in the coal mines and only found out about the bombing when they came to the surface.


I also seem to remember something about Japans government thinking we wouldnt possibly use the bombs even if they didnt surrender, so if we would have dropped it somewhere safe, that probably would have cemented that belief. However you werent there to experience a war where millions of people died, so I dont think you should judge decisions made in that war as lightly as you are.

#15 Sarang01   My Use Name Is Saber CAGiversary!   5585 Posts   Joined 13.5 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:59 PM

"There are time when we must have the courage to do extraordinary things, like jumping eyes closed off the veranda of the Kiyomizu Temple" - Hideki Tojo

Is your hated of the bomb being dropped because of the loss of life or the threat of nuclear annihilation. Because we have bombs that do not use fission that have a blasting radius equal to the strength of the fat man and little boy.

Just curious.


If you're talking to me while I don't like the loss of life it's the fallout I have a real problem with and it's why I said an invasion should've happened instead. That bomb contaminated genepools, saw babies die when they drank the contaminated water, etc.
Dropping the nukes was irresponsible given those consequences and something we should never forget.

As for the other person when I said N-word I meant Neutron. The consequences of it make me shutter. Within' it's blast radius it destroys all ORGANIC life on the surface. I consider that the equivalent of universal blasphemy, one of, if not the most profane act.
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#16 thrustbucket   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   7942 Posts   Joined 13.4 Years Ago  

thrustbucket

Posted 23 July 2010 - 02:05 PM

I thought the Neutron Bomb didn't "officially" exist. Guess it's time to Bing it....

#17 cindersphere   Running on no sleep CAGiversary!   1618 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

cindersphere

Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:13 PM

If you're talking to me while I don't like the loss of life it's the fallout I have a real problem with and it's why I said an invasion should've happened instead. That bomb contaminated genepools, saw babies die when they drank the contaminated water, etc.
Dropping the nukes was irresponsible given those consequences and something we should never forget.

As for the other person when I said N-word I meant Neutron. The consequences of it make me shutter. Within' it's blast radius it destroys all ORGANIC life on the surface. I consider that the equivalent of universal blasphemy, one of, if not the most profane act.


Well there is a silver lining to nuclear warfare. The missile silos in the United States probably don't work, and probably never would have. There was only one real test done to show the effectiveness of the Silos and their ability to respond to a threat. It completely failed, the concrete slabs would not open and the test had to be aborted. When we fire silo missiles in the US we actually take them out of the silo and ship them to their detonation site or an air force base to be launched.
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#18 MSI Magus   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8156 Posts   Joined 13.9 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:18 PM

http://en.wikipedia....ma_and_Nagasaki

Learn your facts, the bombs werent dropped one right after another, they had 2-3 days to surrender, and they didnt. Also Nagasaki and Hiroshima were both militarized targets.



I also seem to remember something about Japans government thinking we wouldnt possibly use the bombs even if they didnt surrender, so if we would have dropped it somewhere safe, that probably would have cemented that belief. However you werent there to experience a war where millions of people died, so I dont think you should judge decisions made in that war as lightly as you are.


I had a history teacher that was insistent that Japan DID surrender and we dropped bombs anyways. Not saying I believe this, just saying I know there are educated people that do. He full heartedly believed that either that Japan surrendered before the first bomb or I think it might have been that they surrendered before we even did drop the first bomb, but we dropped A bombs anyways to make a point to the rest of the world/a lesson out of Japan.

When the rest of the world is crazy it just does not pay to be sane! - Captain Lerner
Government is the enemy, until you need a friend - Bill Cohen


#19 Knoell   Achievement Unlocked CAGiversary!   2584 Posts   Joined 8.1 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:43 PM

I had a history teacher that was insistent that Japan DID surrender and we dropped bombs anyways. Not saying I believe this, just saying I know there are educated people that do. He full heartedly believed that either that Japan surrendered before the first bomb or I think it might have been that they surrendered before we even did drop the first bomb, but we dropped A bombs anyways to make a point to the rest of the world/a lesson out of Japan.


It could be true, although I also heard that Truman wholeheartedly struggled with the decision. Who knows, you know? hind sight is 20/20, those were unsure times, 3-4 years of hell, millions of people dead, I think I wouldve made the same decision, especially seeing the carnage that occured just invading the few islands of Iwo Jima and Okinawa. It isnt a light decision to make which is why I said I think I would, but for us to question their decision based on our "new millenium" enlightenment is a bit off the deep end. Most of us have never seen a war near a hundreth of that scale.

#20 thrustbucket   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   7942 Posts   Joined 13.4 Years Ago  

thrustbucket

Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:52 PM

I had a history teacher that was insistent that Japan DID surrender and we dropped bombs anyways. Not saying I believe this, just saying I know there are educated people that do. He full heartedly believed that either that Japan surrendered before the first bomb or I think it might have been that they surrendered before we even did drop the first bomb, but we dropped A bombs anyways to make a point to the rest of the world/a lesson out of Japan.


I also know some pretty smart people that are totally convinced that Pearl Harbor was "allowed" to happen.

#21 cindersphere   Running on no sleep CAGiversary!   1618 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

cindersphere

Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:55 PM

It's no wonder people have misconceptions about these events. Most history books are opportunistic and border close to fabrication, especially when the subject of war is written about.
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#22 MSI Magus   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8156 Posts   Joined 13.9 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:20 PM

I also know some pretty smart people that are totally convinced that Pearl Harbor was "allowed" to happen.


Not surprising. FDR was itching to get into the war and needed a way in. I somewhat doubt he would let Americans die for it, but then again I would not be surprised if he was pragmatic about the situation and though a handful of Americans die so millions more live and Hitler does not conquer Europe.

When the rest of the world is crazy it just does not pay to be sane! - Captain Lerner
Government is the enemy, until you need a friend - Bill Cohen


#23 Knoell   Achievement Unlocked CAGiversary!   2584 Posts   Joined 8.1 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:23 PM

Not surprising. FDR was itching to get into the war and needed a way in. I somewhat doubt he would let Americans die for it, but then again I would not be surprised if he was pragmatic about the situation and though a handful of Americans die so millions more live and Hitler does not conquer Europe.


it wasnt just a handful of Americans dieing though, it was a major hit on our naval capabilities and demoralizing, a risky start to a war you want to win. Regardless he couldnt have ordered the attack, and I think him stopping the attack dead would have had the same result of outraged Americans thinking the Japanese would attack us.

#24 MSI Magus   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8156 Posts   Joined 13.9 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:44 PM

it wasnt just a handful of Americans dieing though, it was a major hit on our naval capabilities and demoralizing, a risky start to a war you want to win. Regardless he couldnt have ordered the attack, and I think him stopping the attack dead would have had the same result of outraged Americans thinking the Japanese would attack us.


Like I said I do not believe it, I do not think FDR had it it him.

When the rest of the world is crazy it just does not pay to be sane! - Captain Lerner
Government is the enemy, until you need a friend - Bill Cohen


#25 Sarang01   My Use Name Is Saber CAGiversary!   5585 Posts   Joined 13.5 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 05:00 PM

Well the code of the Samurai dictates you must warn someone before you attack I believe. From what I heard Japan DID send message they were to attack Pearl Harbor. The various things I've heard were they notified us in too short a time. Another part of it is we didn't have a Japanese translator I believe. As part of the translator and time we couldn't find one in time to translate the message.
I think there's more to it then we know but then I don't trust our government period. They don't serve us like they should but themselves.
FDR has more in him then you know. He was a friend of the bankers and gladly sold us up shit creek with the Fed and gave us the bullshit Fiat standard.
At least Wilson felt guilty for screwing us, by helping push the Fed on us.
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#26 dafoomie   dafoomie CAGiversary!   8821 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:12 PM

We should never have dropped the bomb in Japan. I would rather we did the invasion and lost more lives. The only thing worse then the A-Bomb is the N-Bomb.
Whoever drops that bomb EVER deserves an instant death penalty as long as you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not a big proponent of the Death Penalty mind you either. But consider the Neutron Bomb and it's effects.

The Japanese killed more civilians in 6 weeks at Nanking than were killed by every atomic bomb ever dropped by man. The Japanese killed more civilians with biological weapons than have ever been killed by nukes.

It was right and necessary and I would do it again if given the choice. Avoiding an invasion saved millions of Americans and tens of millions of Japanese.

#27 TurboChickenMan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   399 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

TurboChickenMan

Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:49 PM

1: History is written by the victors.

2: I do not listen to "patriotards" - people who defend America's actions no matter what the cost. I really liked that line in Barefoot Gen - "it takes more courage to be a coward than it does to join the fight" (sic).

3: Japan had already lost the war. What possible NEED was there to obliterate any more military targets? Especially when they were surrounded by civilians? IMO it was a combination of the U.S. showing off plus them wanting to declare total victory. A truce is just as good as surrender if so many would have to die to achieve it. Just how many Americans or South Koreans have been killed by North Korea since they declared a truce? :-?

#28 dafoomie   dafoomie CAGiversary!   8821 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:08 PM

I noticed that you didn't listen to me when you didn't address any of my points.

Yes, what was the point of prolonging the war? That is a question for the Japanese leadership. They prolonged the war for their own sake, they put their people through incredible hardships even before the nukes because they wanted to stay in power. The Japanese people were starving, they were completely blockaded with no hope of victory or even of a negotiated settlement.

What did their leadership do? They handed out spears to schoolchildren and told them to kill one American before they die. They are the ones that necessitated an invasion and put their own interests ahead of their entire population.

Your attitude betrays your own ignorance of history. A truce is as good as a surrender? Leaving the people in power who launched a war of aggression against the entire Pacific and who were responsible for atrocities which killed millions is a good idea? Why? So they could do it again eventually? So that we couldn't rebuild their country after the war? Leaving those people in charge would've been the worst possible outcome. Would you have rather signed a peace deal with Hitler and left him in power as you were on the doorstep of defeating Germany? That doesn't make any sense.

The only acceptable outcome was to remove those people from power, for our sake and for the sake of the Japanese people. They would not be where they are today had they not overcome that part of their history.

#29 cindersphere   Running on no sleep CAGiversary!   1618 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

cindersphere

Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:15 PM

I gotta agree with dafoomie. Although Tojo had been kicked out of the forces by the time the bomb was dropped and Hirohito knew the war was not going to be won he still wanted to continue fighting. List time

1- There would have been further escalation of war in Manchuria.
2- Operation Decision involved stationing the Japanese opposing the US with about 5 mil infantry about 10,000 planes, and 28 million armed civilians. That is what was waiting had the US decided to invade.
3- Japan was not surrendering nor were they asking for a truce. After the first bomb was dropped Japan did not believe the US had the ability to produce another atomic bomb for about 6 months and would have gone ahead with operation decision. After the second bomb was dropped there were still war ministers and cabinet members who wanted to continue the war. The emperor made the decision to surrender against the wishes of the military staff.

All in all the death count of an invasion would have numbered 10-20 million just for the Japanese forces, and the obliteration of most of the country (at the time we were dropping about 10,000 tons of explosives a day)
Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. - Christopher Hitchens 1949-2011

#30 TurboChickenMan   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   399 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

TurboChickenMan

Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:00 PM

It doesn't matter how many men or planes were ready to go. The U.S. was still considerably stronger. If the Japanese had launched another offensive strike against the U.S., they wouldn't have gotten far. Pearl Harbor worked because it was a surprise. The U.S. was constantly watching Japan afterwards.

I'm for defense, not offense, and staying out of other people's business. The Germans are killing the Polish? The Japanese are killing the Chiinese? The Koreans and Vietnamese are killing their own? So what?

But WE are getting attacked? Then by all means do something about it. But don't do more than you have to stop further attacks on your own soil.

Stop policing the world, America.