CAGcast #211: Very Controversial

CheapyD

CheapyD

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[preview][IMG-L=5838]15060[/IMG-L]Controversy abound with discussion on Mafia 2, Metroid Other M, used games, Xbox Live price hike, the latest game shopping and industry news, your CAGbag and Twitter questions and so much more.

[podcast]120[/podcast]
Download - 96 minutes, 58MB
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Show Linkage/Notes (click the button below to expand):
Intro: Contact 00 - Plump DJs

The Video Game Release List of 8/28 - 9/3

CAG Community Lists

Pre-owned 'cheats developers' - THQ - Penny Arcade Responds

Mafia 2 faces Jimmy's Vendetta on September 7

Microsoft to Raise Xbox Live Subscription Fee, Says Pacther (from 2009)
Microsoft shows off new controller, with transforming D-pad - Play & Charge Required

Nintendo Drops Price on DSi And DSi XL

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Outro: Fun with Tai

 
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iPods are sold at Best Buy so they can sell you a service plan and 5 accessories (that is where the $$ is). Big Box retailers don't necessarily need disc-based games to make money (hardly make any on them), as long as there are accessories to sell.
 
Unfortunately, we are already trending towards disc-less gaming as a whole. Retailers are selling cards for downloadable games in B&M stores, and would probably be quite happy to be rid of the bulky, high-theft media. I'm still waiting for them to implement barcode reading into console cameras so I don't have to type in the stupid codes.

This does not bode well for consumers, however. Seeing as how much trouble it is to transfer downloaded content from one console to another of the same generation... what's the likelyhood that they will make these saves transferable to (and compatible with) future consoles? Not likely, since they can charge you again for new versions and just call you sol for less popular games they don't feel are worthy to update.
 
I worked in retail for a period and I can say for a fact that there is very little margin on video games and even less on ipods.
 
Cheapy why don't you look at what Klipsch and Nakamichi have to offer over Yamaha? You'll get better sound quality and authentic surround sound. You'll likely be able to easily mount them if that's what you end up having to choose from too.
Seriously don't pay for simulated surround sound when you can afford quality brands.
 
First I should note I haven't listened to the podcast. I'm responding to some comments here. I hardly play any of my disc based games on the current consoles as it is. On my Xbox it's almost all XBLA and Indie downloads, though there are exceptions (Blur I play a fair amount, and Deathsmiles). On the Wii I do play more disc-based games, but that's because of the lack of demos for their download games. I'd play a lot more download games if they had demos for all downloads. Mostly, though, I play games on my iPhone, and that's obviously all download.

So, for me, a switch away from disc-based games wouldn't be a big deal, in fact would be welcome, but they've got to realize that a download game can't cost more then $15, and there has to be a demo available. Since you can't resell a download game, you've got to be sure it's for you, and that means demos. For similar reasons the price can't be too high since there's no resell value in the future. The exception to the must-have-demo rule is super-cheap games that you might take a chance on even without a demo, as long as the reviews are good. See good 99c games on the iPhone, like Monster Dash. Or games you know you're going to like, such as Carcassonne and Reiner Knizia's Samurai, in my case. The latter two suck up most of my gaming time these days.
 
I just want to thank Wombat for saying that buying used games does not make you a bad person. After some comments on the Joystiq Podcast last week I was feeling like scum for even thinking about buying a used game.
 
Bose does do well at marketing. As to Shipwreck's comment that nobody offers small speakers that are comparable size wise, that is not true. There are lots of other and better small speakers available. Energy, Klipsch, maybe Aperion, etc.

The old, old, joke is "No highs, no lows....must be Bose".

A good place to research is avsforums.com
 
Came in here to see if Cheapy posted his ringtones or not and was sad when I didn't find any info about the first one he played. I want that as my ringtone!
 
[quote name='Shakey Steve']Soooo cute at the end...Tai has a Japanese accent :D[/QUOTE]

Well imagine that! A half Japanese kid growing up in Japan has a Japanese accent!

...sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm an asshole.
 
It's not only the speaker size, it's the size of the receiver that makes Bose an attractive option to me. I don't want a bulky receiver and I haven't seen many other low-profile receivers. To be honest, the AVS forums have always had too much info for me. I often leave that site with more questions than I had to begin with.
 
We just finished our basement and I had been investigating surround systems when I became quite enamored of soundbars. Those Yamaha models you mentioned are really nice, Cheapy. I think you'd be more than pleased with one of those. I decided on an even smaller model, because my room is just not all that big. I got the Sony HTCT 150, which is
 
We just finished our basement and I had been investigating surround systems when I became quite enamored of soundbars. Those Yamaha models you mentioned are really nice, Cheapy. I think you'd be more than pleased with one of those. I decided on an even smaller model, because my room is just not all that big. I got the Sony HTCT 150, which is
 
The whole brouhaha about not being able to use abilities in Metroid could have been avoided. All they had to do was replace the "you don't have permission" concept with Samus's suit getting damaged at the beginning of the game and it taking a certain period of time for the various weapons and abilities to come back online. I agree with Ship, its just a game convention. But they should have come up with a better excuse, if only to keep players from focusing on something so trivial.
 
In regards to retailers not supporting digitally distributed consoles.. I have to disagree with Wombat.

Ship made a great example with the iPods.. the store profits on their sale but not necessarily on the media for them.. I haven't even seen stores try to push cd's as a way to fill ipods.

Here's another example: record players. You can buy them in any Target, and a lot of other electronic stores, and yet you'll never find a single record(or any parts for them) without stepping foot into a specialty or hipster shop. Record players are certainly not as popular as game consoles or ipods, and yet target feels ok devoting half an aisle to them in every store.

I think a *mostly* digitally distributed future will be here before we know it, and I think publishers would love that and will help that come to fruition.

I also think Cheapy is right in saying that seeing a title on the shelf in a store is a great way to create awareness.. so certainly they'll need to consider that as we move through this transition. Steam proves that it's possible.

======

In regards to Red Dead's collection quests: I wouldn't call them fun, but i didn't mind completing them on the road to 100%. Plus, I quickly discovered that if you park your horse so it's standing over top of the dead animal, you skip the skinning animation altogether! The perks you get for finishing the challenges aren't entirely useless either.
 
mik, your basement looks awesome!

[quote name='Sarang01']Cheapy why don't you look at what Klipsch and Nakamichi have to offer over Yamaha? [/QUOTE]
Those brands aren't sold here. In fact, a vast majority of stuff that is available in America (especially HTIB stuff) is just not sold here.
Also, I don't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but my proximity to Tokyo Tower tends to cause speaker wire to transform into radio antennas.

[quote name='mastermind']Came in here to see if Cheapy posted his ringtones or not and was sad when I didn't find any info about the first one he played. I want that as my ringtone![/QUOTE]
It's in a pack of 50 for $3.99
Wheel A
http://rcptones.com/Ringtones1.0.html
 
Digital Distribution doesn't work because Publishers overcharge for it, constantly. Look at Civilization Revolution, it costs $15 used at Amazon, $19 new at Amazon, and $29 for the digital version on Games on Demand. $10 MORE despite no manufacturing expenses. Publishers are Publishers, I wouldn't call them good retailers, and taking the competition of actual retailers from the equation will see games MORE overpriced than they are now. Mark my words.

As for the difference between used and Piracy, it's this. Used is singular. You can buy A used game, you can make a THOUSAND copies of a game. If Wombat buys a game, and I purchase it after him, there's still only one game. If Wombat uploads a game, and I download it, that game is still there for a million other people to download after me. To not see that simple equation makes the Penny Arcade guys seem awfully ignorant.

A single used game floating in the market is always traded for a value, whether it be a trade in for a store credit, or money that Gamestop uses to purchase an inventory of new games. A pirated game is always distributed freely, it never feeds back into any section of the industry, whether it be developers or game retailers.

There are also a hundred other variables to go along with destroying the used market. What happens to all the "used" games people don't want if they can't resell? They'd go in the garbage. More waste for the planet, but better for Publisher's bottom line. What about the employees of Gamestop? What about the Mom and Pop local stores? They get laid off and go out of business, but better for Publisher's bottom line. At some point, the big picture has to outweigh corporate greed.

As for the way to make up the money from Used games, Capcom just did it. $5 dollars for a full on game, with its own demo, that people can enjoy EARLY to help offset the cost of development. Improved DLC that isn't just Weapons/Skins or an extra mission with no narrative. Brand loyalty, not "fuck you if we don't get your money." Better business sense, not just "release any garbage we can for $60.00, and hope we make money." Honestly, do the math, how many games are released each year by Publishers, and how many are quality games worth the $60.00 price tag?

Sorry for the rant.
 
About halfway through, great show as usual.

Ship, thanks for bringing up Ipod to blow Wombat's argument out of the water. Wombat has brought this up before, and every time I end up shouting "what about mp3 players then?"

His counter argument about it only can happen if you are an iconic brand like an ipod is weak too. Last I checked Target, Walmart and Best Buy all had dozens of different mp3 players. And the retailers can't even make extra money off of those with iTunes cards to sell.

Sooner or later (I'm guessing toward the end of this console gen) MS or Sony will put a major game out for download on day 1 with it coming out on retail. That is 60 bucks that goes straight into their pocket instead of having to share it with a retailer. Why would they not want to do that?
 
I forgot I posted a review for you guys on the 25th. I couldn't copy/paste so I didn't bother putting it in here. Under rogXue in most recent if you want to waste the time to track it down.
 
Mik,

How does that connect to your receiver. If it is mimicking full surround sound wouldn't it need different channels? I've always been intrigued by soundbars but have never actively looked into them.
 
It is the receiver, essentially. Everything goes in and out of the subwoofer. The bar has an array of speakers that are pointed in different directions to bounce the sound around and simulate surround.
 
[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Ship, thanks for bringing up Ipod to blow Wombat's argument out of the water. Wombat has brought this up before, and every time I end up shouting "what about mp3 players then?"

His counter argument about it only can happen if you are an iconic brand like an ipod is weak too. Last I checked Target, Walmart and Best Buy all had dozens of different mp3 players. And the retailers can't even make extra money off of those with iTunes cards to sell.[/QUOTE]


That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.
 
I'm happy to hear Shipwreck defending Other M. I shared his love for Ninja Gaiden and disappointment for Ninja Gaiden 2, so I'm really hoping I agree with his feelings for Metroid.
 
Tycho is so full of fucking shit. I would never buy a $60 game without it having some sort of resale value. I think we're full aware that game companies (and industry leaches thereabout) would like for us to give more of our money to their cause. Fact is the ability to resale and transfer license of the software is already built into the price tag. If they want to go down the downloadable/drc/user license route they are going to run into a harsh reality that consumers are not willing to spend nearly as much on what essentially boils down to a game rental (See the app store). I'll echo Wombat's sentiment: "Go fuck yourself richie rich."
 
When discs are gone, there will be no more sales, since the purpose of sales is to move old product out to make room for new product. The games will just be files on a network server and you can just add more space. How many sales has Microsoft had on their games on demand? I don't ever remember them lowering a price on any of them. Who will sell the systems if there is no software? The manufacturer themselves. I don't know about you but if this happens and/or every future system generation is motion control only, I will stop playing new games. I should not be charged the same amount of money in store for a digital download. Take Starcraft 2 for instance, both the boxed version and dd are $60. With the dd I dont get a pretty box or a manual that I can read on the can. It should be at the most $50. This will be the end of freedom as we know it.
 
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Someone should remind Tycho that a person who gets a game for free from the publisher is no different to the developer than a person who pirates the game.
 
regarding the topic of MS increasing the yearly subscription price for LIVE i think the point isnt that CAGs dont have to pay full price, its that the final price after any discount applied to MSRP will now be higher. for example if the currnet deal price of a 12 month card is $40, that equates to a 20% discount. applying the same discount to the new price come November the net price has risen to $48. personally i dont have any interest in accessing Netflix streaming, ESPN ocho, or facebook on my 360 so to me im paying more for the same thing, the ability to play online.
 
Like what was said - XBL and PSN games are download only because they are CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE. Good luck having a $50-$60 title released only PSN/XBL succeed. People are comfortable spending $10-$20 on a XBL/PSN title with DLC, but I bet money no one is gonna throw down $60 on a download only title *unless * it has the names of: Mario, Gran Turismo or Halo - and that would be a very risky move on the publishers part.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.[/QUOTE]

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.
 
[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. [/QUOTE]

no it wasn't
 
[quote name='4nik8tor']Wombat.. where did you buy your xbox live sub?[/QUOTE]

If you have auto-renew, call 1-800-4-my-xbox. Tell them you want to cancel your auto-renew, they will offer you 800 ms points to keep it on.
 
There were 2 points in the podcast where I actually felt like I would say the SAME THING if I were on the show.

1. Nobody needs to pay full price for XBOX Gold anyways. There's always deals to be had.

2. Chippy D didn't just happen out of nothing. As Chris Rock says "As a father your ONLY goal is to keep your daughter off the pole".
 
[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.[/QUOTE]

It really doesn't. Here's why: the MP3 player arrived after MP3s had already boomed. There was no available software to sell because there was an existing market of people already using that software. MP3s existed before the Ipod, and people were using them. Back when Winamp popped up in 97, through Napster, all of it hit before the Ipod existed. So it makes no sense to argue that they wouldn't sell Ipods because they can't sell MP3s. The MP3s were already there, the software was free flowing all over the internet. The hardware was where the money was.

The Ipod was invented in response to the software. Whereas the Xbox's software is created in response to the hardware. It's two completely different avenues. Apple nor any MP3 manufacturer had a foothold on MP3s to cut out other retailers, video games on the other hand are completely proprietary and retailers have the leverage to say "Hey, don't cut us out of your software or we won't carry your hardware."
 
[quote name='Ltor']your gonna have to wait cag cast, steve jobs has to tell me why i need new ipods first.[/QUOTE]

Cause you're a sucker? ;)
 
[quote name='CheapyD']mik, your basement looks awesome!


Those brands aren't sold here. In fact, a vast majority of stuff that is available in America (especially HTIB stuff) is just not sold here.
Also, I don't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but my proximity to Tokyo Tower tends to cause speaker wire to transform into radio antennas.
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about Nakamichi? It's a Japanese brand. I could see that with Klipsch but not Nakamichi.

Shame to hear that about the speaker wire. Isn't there a way to shield that from radio signals? At least I would hope so.

Oh and shippy you really should look at some of the brands mannish and I mentioned. Klipsch has some fairly small speakers and there is definitely some raving about their quality going on.
 
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