'Teacher of Year' tell tells brat student to “Go back to Mexico”

A Texas teacher is fighting to keep her job after allegedly telling a Hispanic student to “go back to Mexico,” according to a Fox 4 News story.

Two-time “Teacher of the Year” Shirley Bunn, 63, was handing out Title 1 forms to her 8th grade class at Barnett Junior High School in Arlington, the television station reported. A disruptive student requested a Spanish version of the form, saying, “I’m Mexican. I’m Mexican.”

Bunn told the student that he could get a Spanish version in the main office, but the student continued to repeat, “I’m Mexican,” according to the television station.

Bunn responded, “[Then] go back to Mexico,” according to Fox 4.

“It was almost instantaneous. I thought, ‘God, I don’t believe that came out of my mouth,’” she told The Fort Worth Star-Telegram. “It was a very, very hard week, the end of six weeks. It was late in the day. It was a Friday. We were on the third day of the first curriculum assessment and I knew it wasn’t going well. It was just an extremely bad day.”

Bunn has been placed on administrative leave as the Arlington School District reviews the case. An examiner has recommended that the school board allow Bunn to return to her job.

The school board could reject the examiner’s recommendation and fire Bunn.

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http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/20...ls-brat-student-to-“go-back-to-mexico”/?tsp=1

Thats it....lets try to get rid of as many good teachers as possible because they break a couple times from dealing with your shithead kids for 40 years.

I love how a kid can call a teacher a bitch, say they are a whore, throw stuff at them, threaten to hurt/kill them and yet if a teacher even raises their voice every bleeding heart in the state calls for their head. Clearly, no 2 time teacher of the year just randomly insults their student....I am gonna guess it was a little more than "I'm Mexican I'm Mexican" that set her off.

The worst part are these stupid ass news stories that barely tell one side of the story. Got to love 2 paragraph news articles.

that sounded much more understandable given the context of the situation.

Old lady, teaching for a long time, deals with kids in 8th grade all day every day, I don't think people should be attacking here. The situation is kinda funny though, her getting mad at somebody who can't do English tests while living in TEXAS. I bet she has a ton of students who prefer Spanish.

Whether she was surprised or not that such language flew out of her mouth, it says more about how engrained racism is in our society that even the best of us can't just will it away.

If the kid was actually being disruptive I can see it being said in a moment of frustration.

As for the comments on the article...

[quote name='dohdough']Whether she was surprised or not that such language flew out of her mouth, it says more about how engrained racism is in our society that even the best of us can't just will it away.[/QUOTE]

Did you read it? I doubt a 2 time teacher of the year is secretly a closet racist. It said that the kid kept saying I'm Mexican over and over....saying then go back to Mexico is not really a racist remark in that context.

You pull the race card far too easy man, seemingly everyone on the planet is a closet racist.

[quote name='dohdough']Whether she was surprised or not that such language flew out of her mouth, it says more about how engrained racism is in our society that even the best of us can't just will it away.[/QUOTE]


Perhaps, but I don't believe with certainty that this is related to racism. Admittedly, the exact circumstance of the common Spanish-English language barrier would rarely occur with most other languages, but if you put that aside, someone stating anything, including "I'm Mexican!", repeatedly is enough to grate on most adults, and maybe longtime teachers in particular. Literally the first response in any such situation might be to mangle the kid's words, hence, "Go back to Mexico!"

Or maybe the classic "Shut up!"

My point is that perhaps it is wrong to jump to conclusions, even if the aforementioned engrainment of racism is undoubtedly an issue nationwide.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Did you read it? I doubt a 2 time teacher of the year is secretly a closet racist. It said that the kid kept saying I'm Mexican over and over....saying then go back to Mexico is not really a racist remark in that context.

You pull the race card far too easy man, seemingly everyone on the planet is a closet racist.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say she, or everyone on the planet, is a closet racist. Learned negative behaviors, like racism, sexism, etc. can operate on a very sub-conscious level. This is not a controversial phenomenon and it's well documented.

The teacher could've said any number of things out of frustration and reflex, but she chose, and I used that word loosely, to say "go back to Mexico." We can pretend all day that we haven't ascribed racial identifiers to Mexicans, but we have or else we wouldn't have the types of problems we have with xenophobia.

You probably think sexist things all day, but that doesn't mean you don't respect women or don't call anyone a bitch or pussy.

And so what if I pull out the race card? I'm a ing proud card-carrying member for life. Like American Express, I don't leave home without it and even better than American Express because I don't even have to remember to carry it...it just comes with me on it's own. edit: Or someone gives me one if I misplaced it.

[quote name='dohdough']I didn't say she, or everyone on the planet, is a closet racist. Learned negative behaviors, like racism, sexism, etc. can operate on a very sub-conscious level. This is not a controversial phenomenon and it's well documented.

The teacher could've said any number of things out of frustration and reflex, but she chose, and I used that word loosely, to say "go back to Mexico." We can pretend all day that we haven't ascribed racial identifiers to Mexicans, but we have or else we wouldn't have the types of problems we have with xenophobia.

You probably think sexist things all day, but that doesn't mean you don't respect women or don't call anyone a bitch or pussy.

And so what if I pull out the race card? I'm a ing proud card-carrying member for life. Like American Express, I don't leave home without it and even better than American Express because I don't even have to remember to carry it...it just comes with me on it's own.[/QUOTE]


OT but what is more damning to society:

A) The closet racist

B) The person who walks around all day and assumes the reason why they got a speeding ticket, overcharged for a meal, denied entry at a club, etc. is becuase they are "__________" instead of taking some accountability and realizing that maybe they were actually speeding, the waitress made a mistake or they were not in dress code.


I mean seriously are your feelings going to be more hurt because you were told to "Go back to Mexico" after identifying yourself as "Mexican" or told "Shut up you idiot". Would you rather be referred to as a Mexican or an idiot?


I think we all understand and acknowledge that racism exists and will continue to until we are all the same. I just don't think it is necessary to assume that all actions are spurred from some hidden racist agenda. Sometimes people do and say stupid things.

But I guess we all need our platform....

[quote name='Soodmeg']Did you read it? I doubt a 2 time teacher of the year is secretly a closet racist. It said that the kid kept saying I'm Mexican over and over....saying then go back to Mexico is not really a racist remark in that context. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, replace what the kid was saying with any other nationality, and it's basically a fairly innocuous comment, almost a natural comeback, really.

I'm with Soodmeg. Hopefully this one foot-in-mouth moment doesn't end her career prematurely.

[quote name='GBAstar']OT but what is more damning to society:

A) The closet racist

B) The person who walks around all day and assumes the reason why they got a speeding ticket, overcharged for a meal, denied entry at a club, etc. is becuase they are "__________" instead of taking some accountability and realizing that maybe they were actually speeding, the waitress made a mistake or they were not in dress code.[/QUOTE]
People speeding and waitresses making mistakes isn't an issue. People of a certain race being pulled over more than others IS an issue, just as waitresses not paying as much attention that leads to a mistake is an issue if there's a trend that it happens more with customers of a certain race. There's a difference here and you seem to have no problem excusing the system that allows these things to occur.

I mean seriously are your feelings going to be more hurt because you were told to "Go back to Mexico" after identifying yourself as "Mexican" or told "Shut up you idiot". Would you rather be referred to as a Mexican or an idiot?

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"Idiot" is race and gender neutral. "Go back to Mexico" isn't race neutral. Given the recent history of how Mexicans are perceived, how the hell is "go back to Mexico" not meant in a pejorative manner?

I think we all understand and acknowledge that racism exists and will continue to until we are all the same. I just don't think it is necessary to assume that all actions are spurred from some hidden racist agenda. Sometimes people do and say stupid things.

But I guess we all need our platform....

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You either didn't read my post, didn't understand my post, or just ignored my post. Which is it?

And why the hell should we all aspire to "be the same?" That only serves the hegemony and keeps people oppressed. Being valued considering differences is the goal, not to become homogenous. THAT is what equality means.

[quote name='Cantatus']Yeah, replace what the kid was saying with any other nationality, and it's basically a fairly innocuous comment, almost a natural comeback, really.

I'm with Soodmeg. Hopefully this one foot-in-mouth moment doesn't end her career prematurely.[/QUOTE]
People say stupid shit ALL THE TIME. That, in itself, is not the issue. The question is WHY it was a natural comeback, how that comeback was learned, and WHY it was reflexive.

[quote name='dohdough']I didn't say she, or everyone on the planet, is a closet racist. Learned negative behaviors, like racism, sexism, etc. can operate on a very sub-conscious level. This is not a controversial phenomenon and it's well documented.

The teacher could've said any number of things out of frustration and reflex, but she chose, and I used that word loosely, to say "go back to Mexico." We can pretend all day that we haven't ascribed racial identifiers to Mexicans, but we have or else we wouldn't have the types of problems we have with xenophobia.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more. What some people do not understand is that it is not a condemnation of the teacher, no doubt she was actually frustrated and at wit's end. I have no doubt she is an able teacher (as evidenced by awards), made a mistake and deserves to be reinstated. That doesn't mean though that the mistake didn't happen, nor does it mean that there isn't something to be gleamed from it in terms of social observation.

It's not a matter of 'what would you rather have done..be called a Mexican or called an idiot'. May as well say 'would you rather be called a Mexican or shot in the face'. The choice is obvious. It does not mean that either choice is a good one (or socially correct in this case) though, just because one is better than the other.


[quote name='Cantatus']Hopefully this one foot-in-mouth moment doesn't end her career prematurely.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Assuming there are no other similar incidents on her record, I do not believe this to be an offense to be fired over after taking into consideration her otherwise good merits. Like you stated though, it was a foot in the mouth type moment for her. That seems to be glossed over due to the fact that someone brought up (correctly) that it is simply an engrained part of our culture still in some aspects. Her response, at wits end, only proves it.

shit that's nothing............. in the 9 years I have seen and heard MUCH worse...and guess what? They are still teaching! The only way to survive something like is to have Administration in your pocket....if they don't like you very much, then this is the excuse they need to can you.

People are way too conscientious about race issues, to be honest. Why can't a dumbass just be a dumbass? Why bring race into every situation instead of just stating the simple truth?

Still, she sounds a lot better than the English teacher I had in 10th grade who couldn't remember my name and stole my work for her own gain.

[quote name='KingBroly']People are way too conscientious about race issues, to be honest. Why can't a dumbass just be a dumbass? Why bring race into every situation instead of just stating the simple truth?[/QUOTE]

Because being a dumbass, in this case, involved a racial issue? She didn't call the student an idiot (as hypothesized earlier) and people are stating she did so because the student was Mexican. She told a Mexican student to go back to Mexico in a moment of frustration. How can it not be a racial issue?

[quote name='KingBroly']People are way too conscientious about race issues, to be honest. Why can't a dumbass just be a dumbass? Why bring race into every situation instead of just stating the simple truth?

Still, she sounds a lot better than the English teacher I had in 10th grade who couldn't remember my name and stole my work for her own gain.[/QUOTE]

Because dumbasses don't exist in a vacuum and simple truths are simple to the point of meaninglessness.

And you should go a little deeper into your anecdote, so we don't think you're crazy.

[quote name='dohdough']People say stupid shit ALL THE TIME. That, in itself, is not the issue. The question is WHY it was a natural comeback, how that comeback was learned, and WHY it was reflexive.[/QUOTE]

The kid was repeating "I'm a Mexican". That is why it was natural to reply with a quip that included the word Mexico.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']The kid was repeating "I'm a Mexican". That is why it was natural to reply with a quip that included the word Mexico.[/QUOTE]
Actually, there's nothing natural about it. If the kid said he was a frog, would the teacher tell him to go back to Frogland? If the kid said he was Swahili, would the teacher tell him to go back to Swahili-land? If the kid said he was Hebrew, would the teacher tell him to go back to Hebrew-land? Of course not, because that would be the reasoning of a child.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']The kid was repeating "I'm a Mexican". That is why it was natural to reply with a quip that included the word Mexico.[/QUOTE]

Read your response. And then read what you were responding to again.

[quote name='dohdough']People say stupid shit ALL THE TIME. That, in itself, is not the issue. The question is WHY it was a natural comeback, how that comeback was learned, and WHY it was reflexive.[/QUOTE]

You just made his point that it is natural. So you are in agreement then.

That doesn't mean it should be, and does not mean that people should not look within themselves as to why it would be.

[quote name='dohdough']Actually, there's nothing natural about it. If the kid said he was a frog, would the teacher tell him to go back to Frogland? If the kid said he was Swahili, would the teacher tell him to go back to Swahili-land? If the kid said he was Hebrew, would the teacher tell him to go back to Hebrew-land? Of course not, because that would be the reasoning of a child.[/QUOTE]

When I was in school I saw plenty of teachers employ the reasoning of children. Hell, I watched my band leader throw his baton at a student. I saw my history teacher punch a student in the face.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']When I was in school I saw plenty of teachers employ the reasoning of children. Hell, I watched my band leader throw his baton at a student. I saw my history teacher punch a student in the face.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess that makes it all okay then.

[quote name='Yanksfan']Well, I guess that makes it all okay then.[/QUOTE]

What? Just like DD said. People stay stupid shit all the time. If you want to fire a teacher for saying something stupid, then I guess thats where we are.

[quote name='dohdough']Actually, there's nothing natural about it. If the kid said he was a frog, would the teacher tell him to go back to Frogland? If the kid said he was Swahili, would the teacher tell him to go back to Swahili-land? If the kid said he was Hebrew, would the teacher tell him to go back to Hebrew-land? Of course not, because that would be the reasoning of a child.[/QUOTE]

True story - my grandmother finally snapped and told her constantly complaining Irish immigrant friend to "Just go back to Ireland then" It wasn't a slam on Irish immigrants or Ireland. My grandmother was just calling her friend out on her bullshit.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']When I was in school I saw plenty of teachers employ the reasoning of children. Hell, I watched my band leader throw his baton at a student. I saw my history teacher punch a student in the face.[/QUOTE]
I meant using child-like reasoning to analyze the event as outside observers and not the actors. I thought that was pretty obvious.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']What? Just like DD said. People stay stupid shit all the time. If you want to fire a teacher for saying something stupid, then I guess thats where we are.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I said a few times I don't believe she should be fired.

I just fail to understand how you stating the few examples of what you have seen as justification to how this is not a racial issue.

You stating that you have seen 'x' happen does not relate to nor make this response by this teacher anything less than what it is. Something worse happening does not make the lesser offense a non issue. They all should be dealt with and seen as things not becoming of a respected authoritative figure.

[quote name='dohdough']I meant using child-like reasoning to analyze the event as outside observers and not the actors. I thought that was pretty obvious.[/QUOTE]

No, it wasn't obvious. It read to me like you were saying that it wouldn't be natural for a teacher to tell a student to go back to frog-land. I disagree.

@Yanks I never said the comment wasn't a racist thing to say.

[quote name='camoor']True story - my grandmother finally snapped and told her constantly complaining Irish immigrant friend to "Just go back to Ireland then" It wasn't a slam on Irish immigrants or Ireland. My grandmother was just calling her friend out on her bullshit.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I see this situation as much the same.

It's more patriotism/jingoism than racism. People are proud of their country and when someone that lives here is saying "I'm Mexican" over and over, or constantly talking about how whatever country they (or their parents) are from is better than the US a common reply is something along the lines of "well, why don't you go back there if it's so great."

So I don't think race necessarily had anything to do with this. Would people, even dohdough, be flopping out the race card if the kid was saying "I'm Irish, I'm Irish, I'm Irish" and the teacher said "then go back to Ireland!"?

It's just he same nationalistic pride you see from people pissed off when they have a neighbor flying their native country's flag on their porch etc. I just don't see the race angle here. It's just nationalism/ethnocentrism/jingoism from people who think the US is the greatest place in the world and that anyone who moves here should just become an "American."

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']No, it wasn't obvious. It read to me like you were saying that it wouldn't be natural for a teacher to tell a student to go back to frog-land. I disagree.[/QUOTE]
Really? Because that's been the theme of all my posts in this thread.

[quote name='camoor']True story - my grandmother finally snapped and told her constantly complaining Irish immigrant friend to "Just go back to Ireland then" It wasn't a slam on Irish immigrants or Ireland. My grandmother was just calling her friend out on her bullshit.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, I see this situation as much the same.

It's more patriotism/jingoism than racism. People are proud of their country and when someone that lives here is saying "I'm Mexican" over and over, or constantly talking about how whatever country they (or their parents) are from is better than the US a common reply is something along the lines of "well, why don't you go back there if it's so great."

So I don't think race necessarily had anything to do with this. Would people, even dohdough, be flopping out the race card if the kid was saying "I'm Irish, I'm Irish, I'm Irish" and the teacher said "then go back to Ireland!"?

It's just he same nationalistic pride you see from people pissed off when they have a neighbor flying their native country's flag on their porch etc. I just don't see the race angle here. It's just nationalism/ethnocentrism/jingoism from people who think the US is the greatest place in the world and that anyone who moves here should just become an "American."[/QUOTE]
The Irish aren't currently maligned as Mexicans are currently and intentionality is irrelevant. When the Irish are marginalized and criminalized like Mexicans again, I'll be right there waiting to pounce.

As for nationalism, do I really need to go into the implications of that again? I already addressed that in this thread.

No need to get into it dohdough. You know we'll never see eye to eye on race issues, and I have no interest in getting into it again.

But I'll agree Hispanics are more maligned than other immigrant groups and talk a bit about that. But I still think that's more nationalism, stereotypes about illegal immigrants etc. rather than outright racism (i.e. thinking the Hispanic race is inferior).

And having dated an Asian immigrant, and still being good friends with her family, that group gets a lot of flack too. Though it's very different as they don't have the criminal stereotype, or the illegal alien stereotype etc. as much. Just more of the jingoistic crap about speaking their language in public, having flags for their country out, etc. etc.

But I don't think those extra stereotypes Hispanics get are due to people thinking their race is inferior. It's just due to them being impoverished and getting the "poor urban minorities=criminal" BS that Asians don't get, and the illegal immigrant stereotype is self explanatory as their group are the major offenders in recent years on that front so they all get hit with the dumbass stereotypes that go along with it.

There's just a strong anti-foreigner bias in the US that's been majorly amplified post 9/11. I think that's the stronger motif behind this kind of thing than racism. Implications are much the same, and one is just as wrong as the other. But there's still a difference between hating foreigners and immigrants/kids of immigrants for not being "American" and thinking their race is inferior.

But that's all I'll say, as we'll never agree on any of this kind of stuff as I don't have a lot of patience for people like you that are so quick to whip out the race card. Shit like that makes me care less about race issues to be honest, and not wanting to deal with such people is a big reason why I don't bother doing research on race issues in criminal justice.

[quote name='dohdough']The Irish aren't currently maligned as Mexicans are currently and intentionality is irrelevant. When the Irish are marginalized and criminalized like Mexicans again, I'll be right there waiting to pounce.

As for nationalism, do I really need to go into the implications of that again? I already addressed that in this thread.[/QUOTE]

Caesar's wife must be above suspicion?

[quote name='dmaul1114']No need to get into it dohdough. You know we'll never see eye to eye on race issues, and I have no interest in getting into it again. [/quote]
Well, don't hate on me if I keep trying.

But I'll agree Hispanics are more maligned than other immigrant groups and talk a bit about that. But I still think that's more nationalism, stereotypes about illegal immigrants etc. rather than outright racism (i.e. thinking the Hispanic race is inferior).

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Nationalism is a supremacist ideal and when you intersect what "American" means, it isn't as benign as you make it seem. Diverging from racial inferiority to cultural inferiority isn't a completely different form of prejudice when they're still tied to social constructions based on color.

And having dated an Asian immigrant, and still being good friends with her family, that group gets a lot of flack too. Though it's very different as they don't have the criminal stereotype, or the illegal alien stereotype etc. as much. Just more of the jingoistic crap about speaking their language in public, having flags for their country out, etc. etc.

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Sure, but zeitgeist changes. Hell, the Yellow Peril still comes back every few years and different races are treated differently.

But I don't think those extra stereotypes Hispanics get are due to people thinking their race is inferior. It's just due to them being impoverished and getting the "poor urban minorities=criminal" BS that Asians don't get, and the illegal immigrant stereotype is self explanatory as their group are the major offenders in recent years on that front so they all get hit with the dumbass stereotypes that go along with it.

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This is somewhat correct, but only because you're using on an old and strict definition of what racism is. The inferiority part isn't strictly about race anymore, but about culture that implies race. Overt shows of casual racism has evolved past white hoods, public lynchings, and derogatory language.

There's just a strong anti-foreigner bias in the US that's been majorly amplified post 9/11. I think that's the stronger motif behind this kind of thing than racism. Implications are much the same, and one is just as wrong as the other. But there's still a difference between hating foreigners and immigrants/kids of immigrants for not being "American" and thinking their race is inferior.

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Xenophobia and racism aren't all that different when you're dealing with a global hegemony that favors white males.

But that's all I'll say, as we'll never agree on any of this kind of stuff as I don't have a lot of patience for people like you that are so quick to whip out the race card. Shit like that makes me care less about race issues to be honest, and not wanting to deal with such people is a big reason why I don't bother doing research on race issues in criminal justice.

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To be quite blunt, that's because you have the racial privilge to just hand wave these things away and not really be effected by it; people of color don't have that privilge. Ignoring race doesn't make it go away. I'm going to keep working on your dissonance though.

Also, people don't "pull out" the race card; they live it whether they want it or not.

Dodough has made me so paranoid about race issues that even if I was enjoying the most scrumptious watermelon, I wouldn't offer him any.

[quote name='xxDOYLExx']Dodough has made me so paranoid about race issues that even if I was enjoying the most scrumptious watermelon, I wouldn't offer him any.[/QUOTE]
That's fine because I don't really like watermelon that much, but if it was a perfect ripe peach, I'd have to open a can of whoop-ass.

Haha. Fair enough.

I think one of the issues at play here is the gravitas carried by the word "racism". I suppose one could call it ignorance, but I believe most people will have only learned – and for a lengthy period which includes but might not be limited to much of their time in the American school system – the word "racism" as something rather grave to hear of in any situation.

It's due to this that I believe most will take affront at any inference of an unwarranted racist accusation based on their understanding of the word (which brings to thoughts the aforementioned lynchings and other obvious, but less violent conduct, or even some systemic racism whereby people are denied opportunity and an equal chance based on their race or a culture with an implied race), despite its – by definition – less disturbing meaning in the teacher case when termed as "engrained racism".

I'm not saying that any form of racism can be deemed benign, but that it's not often one as overt and gross as the average person believes it only can be.

The system used to describe forms of racism is obviously becoming fine-tuned well beyond that which is being taught to the people who need to understand it.

Nonetheless, I believe I see dohdough's point now.

Sounds more like nationalism to me. The kid should go back to Mexico if he loves it so much. My ancestors left it for a reason, though.

I was elated when I first read the story. I've run into so many assholes like that kid in the story and I am very proud of that teacher for saying what needed to be said.

Although I like DD here, I consider him the enemy of my race. If I was a Jew he would be Hilter.

I dont think he understands how detrimental that mentality is to young minorities. I grew up in the hoodiest of hoods, gunshots everyday, walked past crack houses, gang bangers on my way home. The whole nine yards of stereotypical black hoods.

Hell ironically one of the reasons I ultimately got to college on soccer scholarship was because of my sheer infinite stamina. I got it from running home every day because walking risked be hassled by bangers.

Through some creative paperwork my mom made it so I went to the upper middle class "white school." During my 4 high school years there one of the biggest things I noticed was the stark contrast between the mentality of the "privileged" and "under privileged." I noticed that when a group of adults talked to a group of white kids it was always backed with a aurora of ultimate positivity. I know this is very cliche but when they talked it felt like you could do almost anything. With enough hard work you could be a lawyer, doctor, CEO etc etc.

Now when I was with a group of black kids from my neighborhood it was the exact opposite. Everything was said with a ultimate aurora of negativity. They made a point to constantly say that maybe you could become something great but you would have to do it despite being black or mexican or whatever. They would limit everything we did to just other minorities projects because our race would play too much of a factor in any other thing.

You cant change your race, so a lot of people just give up. If I cant succeed because I am black, I cant change into being a different race so I might as well not try. You cant keep doing that, you cant constantly tell a person that every negative thing in their life is somehow linked to something they cant change, even if its slightly true. Its more harmful than good. If so you get exact what we have no, families who are on welfare for generations because they have accepted that they cant succeed. I have friends still in the hood who blame all their problems on the fact that the man is keeping them down. When I try to explain to them that I am excelling in my path they call me a sell out because I had to choose a "white path" to make it. If I worked on Tyler Perry films all day I would be beloved in the hood but since I work on a lot of "white media" I am considered a sell out.

I would go more into this but I just dont have the time to properly write this up. Sorry for that.

TLDR: Constantly telling minorities that most of their problems are somehow linked to their race even if true (something they cant change) conditions them to believe they can not change their environment. This is reinforced when even the most normal of hardship happens. I would believe given this situation most minorities give up and look for alternative ways to excel (gangs, welfare, etc etc) instead of pursuing normal lives. They then outcast people who excel at the "normal" path because it goes against what they have been condition to believe.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Constantly telling minorities that most of their problems are somehow linked to their race even if true (something they cant change) conditions them to believe they can not change their environment. This is reinforced when even the most normal of hardship happens. I would believe given this situation most minorities give up and look for alternative ways to excel (gangs, welfare, etc etc) instead of pursuing normal lives. They then outcast people who excel at the "normal" path because it goes against what they have been condition to believe.[/QUOTE]
“History is not going to be kind to liberals. With their mindless programs, they've managed to do to Black Americans what slavery, Reconstruction, and rank racism found impossible: destroy their family and work ethic.” -Walter E. Williams

[quote name='dohdough']
Nationalism is a supremacist ideal and when you intersect what "American" means, it isn't as benign as you make it seem. Diverging from racial inferiority to cultural inferiority isn't a completely different form of prejudice when they're still tied to social constructions based on color.

[/QUOTE]

To clarify, I didn't in any way imply it was at all benign, and said "one is just as wrong as the other."

I was just arguing the semantics. As a social scientist is important to have clear terms for different phenomenon. Someone being anti-foreigner or anti-immigrant etc. is different than being racist.

At the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive. One can be racist and nationalist/ethnocentric etc. Or one can be just one or the other. A person just be racist and hate all Hispanics regardless of nationality, immigrant status etc. While others can just hate immigrants who they don't feel are proud to be Americans, and be fine with immigrants or native born Hispanics who love the US.

If you're going to study these types of things you have to be clear on the concepts and not just call everything racism as it's important to be as detailed as possible when identifying social phenomenon to study. Being to broad and general with concepts misses a lot of important nuances. And that nuance is everything when it comes to accurate theory and effective policy in the social sciences.

[quote name='Spokker']“History is not going to be kind to liberals. With their mindless programs, they've managed to do to Black Americans what slavery, Reconstruction, and rank racism found impossible: destroy their family and work ethic.” -Walter E. Williams[/QUOTE]

Holy shit....:lol: When you quote me it actually sounds like I know what the hell I am talking about. Normally its extremely hard for me to translate what I am thinking into words.

Ha! That wont happen again for another 7 years.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Normally its extremely hard for me to translate what I am thinking into words.[/QUOTE]Same here. Perhaps we need to be put on WIC and given extra points on our GRE tests.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Although I like DD here, I consider him the enemy of my race. If I was a Jew he would be Hilter.[/QUOTE]
You heard it here folks. Talking about pervasive systemic racism makes me an enemy to blacks akin to Hitler to the Jewish.

Look, you made it out of the hood, but that doesn't mean everyone can for a myriad of reasons. You're old enough to understand that being the smartest, talented, hard-worker doesn't mean you're going to be enough to succeed in whatever one might want to do. We're not children that live in some fairytale meritocracy in which Santa Clause will bring us toys if we're good.

I dont think he understands how detrimental that mentality is to young minorities. I grew up in the hoodiest of hoods, gunshots everyday, walked past crack houses, gang bangers on my way home. The whole nine yards of stereotypical black hoods.

Hell ironically one of the reasons I ultimately got to college on soccer scholarship was because of my sheer infinite stamina. I got it from running home every day because walking risked be hassled by bangers.

Through some creative paperwork my mom made it so I went to the upper middle class "white school." During my 4 high school years there one of the biggest things I noticed was the stark contranst between the mentality of the "privileged" and "under privileged." I noticed that when a group of adults talked to a group of white kids it was always backed with a aurora of ultimate positivity. I know this is very cliche but when they talked it felt like you could do almost anything. With enough hard work you could be a lawyer, doctor, CEO etc etc.

Now when I was with a group of black kids from my neighborhood it the exact opposite. Everything was said with a ultimate aurora of negativity. They made a point to constantly say that maybe you could become something great but you would have to do it despite being black or mexican or whatever. They would limit everything we did to just other minorities projects because our race would play too much of a factor in any other thing.

You cant change your race, so a lot of people just give up. If I cant succeed because I am black, I cant change into being a different race so I might as well not try. You cant keep doing that, you cant constantly tell a person that every negative thing in their life is somehow linked to something they cant change, even if its slightly true. Its more harmful than good. If so you get exact what we have no, families who are on welfare for generations because they have accepted that they cant succeed. I have friends still in the hood who blame all their problems on the fact that the man is keeping them done. When I try to explain to them that I am excelling in my path they call me a sell out because I had to choose a "white path" to make it. If I worked on Tyler Perry films all day I would be beloved in the hood but since I work on a lot of "white media" I am considered a sell out.

I would go more into this but I just dont have the time to properly write this up. Sorry for that.

TLDR: Constantly telling minorities that most of their problems are somehow linked to their race even if true (something they cant change) conditions them to believe they can not change their environment. This is reinforced when even the most normal of hardship happens. I would believe given this situation most minorities give up and look for alternative ways to excel (gangs, welfare, etc etc) instead of pursuing normal lives. They then outcast people who excel at the "normal" path because it goes against what they have been condition to believe.

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I see that you're big on anecdotes so I challenge you to explain why students in the Mexican Studies program in Arizona were able to have higher tests scores in math and science that their white counterparts. If your hypothesis is true, then they would've just said, " this school and whitey...I'm gonna go get high and put 20's on a 20 year old civic."

[quote name='Spokker']“History is not going to be kind to liberals. With their mindless programs, they've managed to do to Black Americans what slavery, Reconstruction, and rank racism found impossible: destroy their family and work ethic.” -Walter E. Williams[/QUOTE]
If you're going to post a quote about how "liberals" created "black" culture, at least quote Malcolm X and not some guy that parrots cultural racism.

[quote name='dohdough']You heard it here folks. Talking about pervasive systemic racism makes me an enemy to blacks akin to Hitler to the Jewish.

Look, you made it out of the hood, but that doesn't mean everyone can for a myriad of reasons. You're old enough to understand that being the smartest, talented, hard-worker doesn't mean you're going to be enough to succeed in whatever one might want to do. We're not children that live in some fairytale meritocracy in which Santa Clause will bring us toys if we're good.


I see that you're big on anecdotes so I challenge you to explain why students in the Mexican Studies program in Arizona were able to have higher tests scores in math and science that their white counterparts. If your hypothesis is true, then they would've just said, " this school and whitey...I'm gonna go get high and put 20's on a 20 year old civic."


If you're going to post a quote about how "liberals" created "black" culture, at least quote Malcolm X and not some guy that parrots cultural racism.[/QUOTE]


Before I would answer that I would have to ask how does looking at a vacuum add to the conversation? Its one school out of a million schools country wide. They are a thousand different reasons that could have happened in that instants. With a dozen more fact that need to be included to even think about it.

Thats kind of a hallow point.


Plus, you cant be that, excuse the pun, black and white on the issue. CLEARLY 1 situation doesnt represent every situation on the planet. One group of smart Mexicans doesnt magically make 10 million others irrelevant.


I dont know DD, you seem to have the position that everything has to have a greater conspiracy behind it linking it directly back to race. I dont see how that can be good for anyone.

Its one thing to understand how race plays a part in the world its another to use it as direct reasoning for everything that happens to you. Especially here in America...where there is very few ethic cleansing going on. Have I been followed around in a store before? Yes...but I didnt hold a grudge so big that it ruled my life for the next 5 years.

[quote name='dohdough']
I see that you're big on anecdotes so I challenge you to explain why students in the Mexican Studies program in Arizona were able to have higher tests scores in math and science that their white counterparts. If your hypothesis is true, then they would've just said, " this school and whitey...I'm gonna go get high and put 20's on a 20 year old civic."[/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with Mexican Studies. Look at the story of Jaime Escalante. It was liberal policies that held him and his program back and it eventually led to his ouster.

A few good bits about his life are here: http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/31/jaime-escalante-rip

It is less well-known that Escalante left Garfield after problems with colleagues and administrators, and that his calculus program withered in his absence. That untold story highlights much that is wrong with public schooling in the United States and offers some valuable insights into the workings -- and failings -- of our education system. [...]

Calculus grew so popular at Garfield that classes grew beyond the 35-student limit set by the union contract. Some had more than 50 students. Escalante would have preferred to keep the classes below the limit had he been able to do so without either denying calculus to willing students or using teachers who were not up to his high standards. Neither was possible, and the teachers union complained about Garfield's class sizes. Rather than compromise, Escalante moved on.

[T]here is no inner-city school anywhere in the United States with a calculus program anything like Escalante's in the '80s. A very successful program rapidly collapsed, leaving only fragments behind.

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There's much more at this link: http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited/singlepage

He also opposed bilingual education.

He was called a traitor for his opposition to bilingual education. He said the hate mail he received for championing Proposition 227, the successful 1998 ballot measure to dismantle bilingual programs in California, was a factor in his decision to retire that year after leaving Garfield and teaching at Hiram Johnson High School in Sacramento for seven years. [...]

Unpopular with fellow teachers, he won few major teaching awards in the United States. He liked to be judged by his results, a concept still resisted by the majority of his profession.

Click to expand...

Run like the school system like an Escalante and you measure success based on results and treat students like human beings, not political pawns in which to score points with. Mexican kids don't need Mexican Studies, they need Plain Old Studies. All ethnic studies classes are a waste of time. They need math, science, writing and reading.

[quote name='Soodmeg']You cant change your race, so a lot of people just give up. If I cant succeed because I am black, I cant change into being a different race so I might as well not try. You cant keep doing that, you cant constantly tell a person that every negative thing in their life is somehow linked to something they cant change, even if its slightly true. Its more harmful than good. If so you get exact what we have no, families who are on welfare for generations because they have accepted that they cant succeed. I have friends still in the hood who blame all their problems on the fact that the man is keeping them down. When I try to explain to them that I am excelling in my path they call me a sell out because I had to choose a "white path" to make it. If I worked on Tyler Perry films all day I would be beloved in the hood but since I work on a lot of "white media" I am considered a sell out.[/QUOTE]
The question shouldn't be about why they don't succeed while they're on welfare, but why there have been multiple generations on welfare to begin with. There are deeper questions that need to be answered before you can answer why they can't succeed.

There are recent studies about employment, housing, and loans that show systemic discrimination against people of color. There is no "man" working against them; it's a system and until you see how we're all tied into the system, you're going to keep trotting out the meritocracy fantasy that stems from the Just World fallacy.

[quote name='dmaul1114']To clarify, I didn't in any way imply it was at all benign, and said "one is just as wrong as the other."

I was just arguing the semantics. As a social scientist is important to have clear terms for different phenomenon. Someone being anti-foreigner or anti-immigrant etc. is different than being racist.

At the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive. One can be racist and nationalist/ethnocentric etc. Or one can be just one or the other. A person just be racist and hate all Hispanics regardless of nationality, immigrant status etc. While others can just hate immigrants who they don't feel are proud to be Americans, and be fine with immigrants or native born Hispanics who love the US.

If you're going to study these types of things you have to be clear on the concepts and not just call everything racism as it's important to be as detailed as possible when identifying social phenomenon to study. Being to broad and general with concepts misses a lot of important nuances. And that nuance is everything when it comes to accurate theory and effective policy in the social sciences.[/QUOTE]
Sure, I could be precise to the point of unintelligibility and get caught up in academic techno-jargon, but how would that serve anybody? I'm not an academic looking for tenure or trying to publish articles in academic journals and lit reviews; I'm just a guy that knows a lot about racism that posts on a website to get deals on games that happens to have a political forum. If I start throwing out terms like intersectionality, interest convergence, essentialism, racial development statuses, and a bunch of other terms that don't come to mind right now, who's going to understand what I'm saying? People have a hard enough time understanding "privilege" and "classism." Like I said a while ago, I'm not an academic, I just play one on the internet, but there's a difference between an academic and an activist, not that I profess to be one or the other. An academic seeks to increase knowledge, but unless it's just for the sake of knowledge, someone is going to need to bring it to the masses unless you decide to do it yourself. And like you said a long time ago, you're no activist.

But as to your points about the distinction in your example, there's a ton of overlap between anti-immigrant and anti-foreigner. I'm not saying that it's RACISM!, but how racism manifests itself across various systems.

[quote name='dohdough']
There are recent studies about employment, housing, and loans that show systemic discrimination against people of color.[/QUOTE]Of course there's discrimination. The black and Hispanic applicants for employment, housing and loans are less qualified on average. Groups like National People's Action and ACORN think traditional lending practices are discriminatory toward the poor and non-whites. Their solution is to simply lower standards and that'll pump up numbers in the short run and make everybody feel good, but in the long run it will devastate the very people it is meant to help. The same is true for affirmative action.

[quote name='Spokker']


Run like the school system like an Escalante and you measure success based on results and treat students like human beings, not political pawns in which to score points with. Mexican kids don't need Mexican Studies, they need Plain Old Studies. All ethnic studies classes are a waste of time. They need math, science, writing and reading.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I would willingly boot social studies and american history at any time.

It's not a jargon issue. It's a conceptual issue.

Hating someone for their race, hating someone for being foreign, hating someone for being an immigrant and so on are all different things. No jargon is needed to talk about these things.

It's as simple as realizing that telling someone that keeps saying "I'm Mexican" or "I'm insert whatever foreign country ethnic term" to move back there if it's so much better than the US doesn't have to involve any racial hate. Hell it doesn't have to even involve any ethnic hate. It can be as simple as being overly patriotic/jinogistic and thinking everyone that lives here should love the US, consider it their home and consider themselves Americans or they should leave.

Similarly, someone can just hate illegal immigrants and have no other racial or cultural bias. Hence Hispanics who immigrated legally and hate those who came illegally for jumping the line and giving them all a bad rap etc.

So it's not jargon and you don't have to use fancy five dollar academic words to keep these types of concepts separate, nor to talk about how they often intertwine (but not always) etc.

Talking about things more realistically has a lot more meaning and impact, even on a silly forum like this, than just crying "racism!" at every story like this. It's one example of something people on the left do that's nearly as annoying as those on the rights constant crying of "socialism!" Once that happens, any chance of arguing the nuances of the situation are gone as no one on the other side is going to listen to anything you have to say on the topic after that remark.