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Gun Homicide rates


#121 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:37 PM

How about writing out what you believe will resolve gun violence? You know, in a detailed fashion instead of "pass some regulations!". We've already gone over capacity limits (which you never responded on). What's next? Or is it all going to be vague personal attacks with no backing or facts? You're really bad at this. You've made no point.


Psst...lemme tell about my plan to end world hunger...
Spoiler


I have another great idea on how to eliminate crime...
Spoiler


My biggest secret weapon of all to eliminate gun violence...
Spoiler


I am ONE HUNDRED GAJILLION PERCENT SERIOUS about those ideas.

Last time I checked, my personal attacks aren't vague. In matter of fact, I'm pretty direct with them. I've even toned it down some(not that there's a need to anymore), but I'm trying to clean up my language a bit for the little one. Lucky you?

MY POINT was that gun FETISHISM, more commonly known as gun "culture," is so ingrained in us and the conservative's messaging is so powerful(even a self-professed left-leaning person like yourself uses their rhetoric), that even something like NICS checks for private sales or increased precautions if you have a home with someone that's mentally ill are seen as heresy. So yeah! I'm going to throw MORE REGULATIONS!! SO SCARY!!! at the problem because we're never going to get rid of guns or completely eliminate gun violence, rather than doing jack shit and let people whine about registries or slippery slopes.

"Resolve gun crime violence" you say? You might as well ask me to suck my own dick while I'm fucking my own ass. At least THAT would be more plausible than that STRAWMAN you're using to rape the concept of reason.

Oh and LOLZ@ThugLyfe™
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#122 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 15 October 2014 - 03:58 PM

MY POINT was that gun FETISHISM, more commonly known as gun "culture," is so ingrained in us and the conservative's messaging is so powerful(even a self-professed left-leaning person like yourself uses their rhetoric), that even something like NICS checks for private sales or increased precautions if you have a home with someone that's mentally ill are seen as heresy. So yeah! I'm going to throw MORE REGULATIONS!! SO SCARY!!! at the problem because we're never going to get rid of guns or completely eliminate gun violence rather than doing jack shit and let people whine about registries or slippery slopes.

More regulations?  I like how detailed you are.  "I'M ASKING FOR MORE LAWS!  I REFUSE TO NAME ANY, BUT MORE OF THEM!".

 

Rhetoric?  So, I cite actual facts with reasoning, but it's "rhetoric" now?  That's pretty awesome.  Way to address the points I brought up though.  Just throw the word "strawman" out there repeatedly without actually making a clear, concise statement on what your argument is.

 

So far, all you've said clearly is that it's "gun fetishism" driving the problem.  But there's a problem with that.  See, if it was the "gun culture" you are referencing, wouldn't most of the violence be at places like gun shows and NRA events?  Man, those rednecks are just killing each other left and right!  It's that gun fetishism brought on by the gun culture!  It's definitely not related to drugs or gang violence.  It's not like the outliers for our homicide rates in the US are places with high rates of crime that are typically gang related.  Every day, rednecks and suburban gun fetishists are just flocking to the inner city to do drive bys!

 

But hey, a registry is what we need!  Those registries have been the reason so much gun crime has been solved . . . oh wait, what's that?  That only happens in CSI?  But . . . but . . . that couldn't be true!

 

STRAWMAN!  Who's got one?!  You've got one!  Avoid addressing any points I've made, while throwing made up reasons to why the US has a homicide rate driven by outliers!  Man, that's some shit there.

 

Great point though.  Keep it up!


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#123 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 15 October 2014 - 05:01 PM





Hmmm...I mention NICS checks for private sales and increased precautions for gun-owning households with mentally ill family members and I'm accused of not naming any "laws" or being "specific enough."

I use the term "rhethoric" because that's what you use. You bitch about tossing out "facts" as if socio-economic conditions are somehow universal. It's not like collecting guns is a cheap hobby(no shortage of racist fucks either). Thug Lyfe™ isn't the vector.

I mention people whining about registries and slippery slope arguments...and then you go talking about CSI and solving crimes as if registries would be primarily used to solve violent gun crimes, which I never even suggested! Not to mention that completely contradicts your earlier statement in the same exact post about me not being specific enough!

We(as a country) obviously don't give a shit about poor (black) people in the country because they tend to be disproportionately populated in under-resourced neighborhoods, whether it's in an urban or semi-urban location, so we don't talk about that because it doesn't affect most of the country geographically(it does when it comes to population density though, but Fuck context amiright). Yet when we want to do something that would lessen the flow of guns or mitigate the possibility of mass casualties, we can't do jack shit because "from my cold, dead hands!" You just said yourself that "outliers" don't matter, so you really don't give a Fuck about those populations either! Syntax tried repeatedly to steer the conversation into talking about socio-economic solutions, but you kept wanting to talk about your fucking guns. Fine! You don't want to talk about the underlying issues? Then we'll go your way and talk about your fucking guns. Oh right, you don't want to talk about them, you just want to talk about how it's not an issue nor does it factor into other issues.

Here's an oldie:
strawmanargument.jpg

Fuck it, even I have my limits. Enjoy your straw. dohdough OUT!

Maybe...
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#124 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 15 October 2014 - 06:13 PM

Hmmm...I mention NICS checks for private sales and increased precautions for gun-owning households with mentally ill family members and I'm accused of not naming any "laws" or being "specific enough."
 

You're cute.  Using short terms with no details and calling them "specific".  But hey, I'll humor you.  NICS checks are already in place for a majority of sales.  I'm fine with them being put in place for every sale, as long as it doesn't take longer to purchase.  You know why I don't care though?  Because they're already in place for the vast majority of sales, and most homicides aren't committed with a legally obtained firearm.  But hey, strike one for useless addition to an already overly complicated set of laws!

 

Increased pre-cautions for households with mentally ill family members?  You mean, like not allowing a person who is a threat to themselves or others to legally possess a firearm?  Like, how the law already is federally, and each state expands on to different levels?  See, this is what I mean by you not providing details.  But continue to throw around buzz words like they mean something!  It's cute and endearing!

 

 

 

I mention people whining about registries and slippery slope arguments...and then you go talking about CSI and solving crimes as if registries would be primarily used to solve violent gun crimes, which I never even suggested! Not to mention that completely contradicts your earlier statement in the same exact post about me not being specific enough!

 

You know why I said that?  Because you mentioned registries.  And "MORE REGULATIONS!" without being specific on what, so I had to fill in the blanks.  Kind've like how I had to do a moment ago.

 

 

 

So yeah! I'm going to throw MORE REGULATIONS!! SO SCARY!!! at the problem because we're never going to get rid of guns or completely eliminate gun violence, rather than doing jack shit and let people whine about registries or slippery slopes.

 

Details again, honey.  The arguments are always the same in regards to them:  Registries help solve crimes!  Except they're never used to actually do that.  So, how about you tell me what good they'd do if my earlier assumption on what you meant was inaccurate?

 

 

 

We(as a country) obviously don't give a shit about poor (black) people in the country because they tend to be disproportionately populated in under-resourced neighborhoods, whether it's in an urban or semi-urban location, so we don't talk about that because it doesn't affect most of the country geographically(it does when it comes to population density though, but shaq-fu%2196.gif context amiright). Yet when we want to do something that would lessen the flow of guns or mitigate the possibility of mass casualties, we can't do jack shit because "from my cold, dead hands!" You just said yourself that "outliers" don't matter, so you really don't give a shaq-fu%2196.gif about those populations either! Syntax tried repeatedly to steer the conversation into talking about socio-economic solutions, but you kept wanting to talk about your fucking guns. Fine! You don't want to talk about the underlying issues? Then we'll go your way and talk about your fucking guns. Oh right, you don't want to talk about them, you just want to talk about how it's not an issue nor does it factor into other issues.

 

Except earlier, I said socio-economic issues probably has a lot more to do with the issue than guns.  Thing is, how do you fix it?  Give everyone free health care and food?  We're already doing that, assuming you fill out paperwork.  Hell, I used to get both due to health conditions.  Very little pain involved!

 

How about education?  GREAT!  Raise the bar, I'm cool with that.  But I don't predict that fixing everything magically, because PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO KILL EACH OTHER WITHOUT GOING TO SCHOOL.  It's not fucking rocket science.  But hey, drugs and gang violence couldn't possibly stem from non-moral reasons.  People can't just be greedy fucks, they have to be needy and under-provided for, right?

 

So, what's your solution, honey bunny?  The suggested one of model after other countries (like the UK) that Syntax and the OP suggested?

 

Mine?

 

-Education (Though I doubt it's going to change what you label "gun culture" violence . . .  even though it's really drug / gang violence.  But hey, at least we can raise the bar a bit.)

-Mental Health reform, because kicking people to the curb a day after they have a psychotic break is dumb.  "Well, they took their pills now.  And I know they won't tomorrow, but that's not our problem!".

-Crack down on crime in these high crime neighborhoods.  Take the drug pushers off the damn streets and put them away.  Zero tolerance.  Stop letting the fucking crackheads back out on the street after a week repeatedly.

-Societal changes - Maybe the phrase "stop snitchin" should be, I don't know, erased?  "Hey, I saw this kid do a drive by . . . but I ain't no snitch."  Yup, that's not helping.  How about some fun good Samaritan laws that punish people for being un-involved in fixing the problems in their own damn neighborhoods?

-Hell, I'll be nice here:  Let's do some prison reform while we're at it.  Mandatory education requirements for prisoners.  Don't pass?  Don't go home unless you're mentally disabled.  In which case, special programs for you!

 

Man, that was rough.  I can see why you refuse to put details and just buzz words.  Someone might be able to read what I wrote and criticize it!  SHIT!  I'M SCARED.

 

Good luck, honey bunny snookums.  I have faith in you!


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#125 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 15 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

honey bunny and snookems?...You're getting pretty creepy there...

Free-Candy-Van.jpg
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#126 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1654 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 15 October 2014 - 11:09 PM

1. If we're being honest with ourselves, it's obviously written to make sure that everyone can fight off the British if they try to take back the colonies since there was no standing army.

2. Bullets don't magically find their mark like the gun from The Fifth Element and don't turn into flower petals if they don't.

1. Yes, I believe defending against foreign invasions was one of the reasons but do you think that maybe it was also to fight a tyrannical government?

 

2. Ok but how often does that happen? When it does, is it from the criminals who have obtained the weapons through illegal means or by simply walking into the store and purchasing a weapon? 



#127 UncleBob  

Posted 16 October 2014 - 03:42 AM

You know, every time you post a troll meme, it just further entrenches the fact that you have literally nothing of value to contribute.


Indeed.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#128 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 10.3 Years Ago  

Posted 18 October 2014 - 02:28 AM

One of the reasons the Obama administration is giving for not instituting an African travel ban is that people would find ways to circumvent it and still enter the country...any parallels that can be drawn to this gun regulation topic?



#129 rebelschs   Necessary Evil CAGiversary!   259 Posts   Joined 3.6 Years Ago  

rebelschs

Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:30 AM

One of the reasons the Obama administration is giving for not instituting an African travel ban is that people would find ways to circumvent it and still enter the country...any parallels that can be drawn to this gun regulation topic?

Pretty much Obama has showed us that you can pretty much walk across the border.

 

I think the sadder part is that NORTH FUCKING KOREA has a travel ban.

 

Yes North Korea is handling the ebola situation better than the USA.


The South will rise again.


#130 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   6715 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:19 AM

http://www.npr.org/2...ce-officers-too

 

The nation's police officers are divided on how they feel about gun control. Some of them believe in the NRA standard arguments, including the "Good Guy with a Gun," "Criminals still gonna get guns," and 2nd Amendment. I wonder how many idiots with a gun cops meet on the job. You can't stop robberies either, so why arrest those perps? Why bother being a police officer when you can't stop crime?

 

Isn't it easier for a cop to know which people to NOT shoot if there are less people with a gun?


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#131 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 09 October 2015 - 12:59 PM

Here's a "good guy with a gun" story to warm your heart.

http://www.usatoday....ifter/73548972/

Guy shoplifts from Home Depot. While making his getaway, a woman in the parking lot with a conceal carry pulls out her gun and starts wildly shooting at the fleeing shoplifter. In what world do we live in that someone actually thinks using deadly force on a shoplifter is a good idea, in a public parking lot where an innocent bystander could have been hit no less.

But hey, all these armed civilians out there have done such a great job of stopping mass shootings, right?

#132 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 04:10 PM

Here's a "good guy with a gun" story to warm your heart.

http://www.usatoday....ifter/73548972/

Guy shoplifts from Home Depot. While making his getaway, a woman in the parking lot with a conceal carry pulls out her gun and starts wildly shooting at the fleeing shoplifter. In what world do we live in that someone actually thinks using deadly force on a shoplifter is a good idea, in a public parking lot where an innocent bystander could have been hit no less.

But hey, all these armed civilians out there have done such a great job of stopping mass shootings, right?

Thanks for cherry picking an incident from my area and using the term "good guy with a gun" incorrectly!  Just saying, since when is someone performing a felony a "good guy with a gun"?  I mean, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, etc... not terms I'd link with "good guy".  But hey, way to try to characterize "good guys" to "bad guys".

 

Strange how you picked that article, but missed this one (from the same area) weeks earlier:  http://www.clickonde...warren/35398190

 

The latter article is one of many.  Hell, here's an article for Detroit going over last years justified homicides alone:  http://www.ammoland..../#axzz3o5U9iwhv


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#133 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 06:13 PM

Thanks for cherry picking an incident from my area and using the term "good guy with a gun" incorrectly!  Just saying, since when is someone performing a felony a "good guy with a gun"?  I mean, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, etc... not terms I'd link with "good guy".  But hey, way to try to characterize "good guys" to "bad guys".

 

Strange how you picked that article, but missed this one (from the same area) weeks earlier:  http://www.clickonde...warren/35398190

 

The latter article is one of many.  Hell, here's an article for Detroit going over last years justified homicides alone:  http://www.ammoland..../#axzz3o5U9iwhv

LOLZ

 

just LOLZ

 

The guy at the bank was lucky he didn't hit anyone else and COLOR me surprised: a pro-gun website thinks that more guns are good. I guess Greedo deserved what he got cause he shot first!


dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#134 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 09 October 2015 - 06:22 PM

Thanks for cherry picking an incident from my area and using the term "good guy with a gun" incorrectly!  Just saying, since when is someone performing a felony a "good guy with a gun"?  I mean, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, etc... not terms I'd link with "good guy".  But hey, way to try to characterize "good guys" to "bad guys".

 

Strange how you picked that article, but missed this one (from the same area) weeks earlier:  http://www.clickonde...warren/35398190

 

The latter article is one of many.  Hell, here's an article for Detroit going over last years justified homicides alone:  http://www.ammoland..../#axzz3o5U9iwhv

Correlation doesn't equal causation.  Meaning, there's no way to know if crime in Detroit would have gone down without an increase in conceal carry. Violent crime is steadily declining across the US, not just Detroit.  It has been for years, of course you'd never know that watching or reading most news.

 

http://time.com/3577...tes-drop-1970s/

 

Furthermore, I like these articles a little more explaining just what went down in that bank robbery you cited:

 

http://www.mlive.com..._concealed.html

 

http://www.freep.com...arren/72631112/

 

The salient points:

-The vigilante emptied his gun firing at the robber.  Emptied, and only hit him 3 times.  That was 3 hits out of 8 shots.  That's 5 bullets flying through the air that don't know they're intended for the robber.

-The vigilante fired at the robber, as he was leaving the scene.  As in, the danger to the bank and its customers was ending until Dirty Harry decided to be a cowboy and potentially start a shootout.



#135 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 06:29 PM

Looks like

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.  Meaning, there's no way to know if crime in Detroit would have gone down without an increase in conceal carry. Violent crime is steadily declining across the US, not just Detroit.  It has been for years, of course you'd never know that watching or reading most news.

 

http://time.com/3577...tes-drop-1970s/

 

Furthermore, I like these articles a little more explaining just what went down in that bank robbery you cited:

 

http://www.mlive.com..._concealed.html

 

http://www.freep.com...arren/72631112/

 

The salient points:

-The vigilante emptied his gun firing at the robber.  Emptied, and only hit him 3 times.  That was 3 hits out of 8 shots.  That's 5 bullets flying through the air that don't know they're intended for the robber.

-The vigilante fired at the robber, as he was leaving the scene.  As in, the danger to the bank and its customers was ending until Dirty Harry decided to be a cowboy and potentially start a shootout.

Looks like Fearia is a cop in the Detroit area. Yeah, violent crime is declining, but folks, especially cops, with similar mindsets have a vested interest in ignoring that fact or downplaying it as if they're in a warzone. It's safer to be a cop now than it's ever been and it's getting safer.


dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#136 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36933 Posts   Joined 12.4 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 06:35 PM

And yet, RvB, in the course of trading anecdotes, this is sensible gun use to people arguing against gun control laws. Jesus.


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#137 Sarang01   My Use Name Is Saber CAGiversary!   5561 Posts   Joined 12.5 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 07:57 PM

We'll see soon enough, as de Blasio has to renegotiate 150 plus municipal union contracts this year. If he can get past that hurdle unscathed things will be just fine. That said, the city needed Giuliani and Bloomberg to achieve a level of prosperity it enjoys today. 

I'm sure there are responses but I have my own comments here.

 

Bloomberg was scum, he was a benevolent dictator who ran NYC.  He was pleasantly controversial, taking a hardline stance on issues where people would take no offense comparatively, like smoking.  There are other issues are well but lets look at his actions with Zucatti Park and Occupy, ultimately getting them kicked out by police.  Or how about after the hurricane when he was eager to get the NYC Marathon going, even to the detriment of providing aid to those who suffered in the aftermath.  The whole rush and his attitude to me smacked of..."I'm losing money, lets get business up and running, people be damned".  He is the richest man in NY state so Fuck everyone else right?

As I was saying on policy, point out to me when Bloomberg EVER took a hardline stance on an issue of high visibility that mattered to Conservatives or Liberals, Dems or Pubs.  You can't because there isn't one.  The anti-smoking thing kicked up a bit of a fuss but smokers are quite in the minority so the truth was this wouldn't cost him many votes.  It was just a group he kicked when they were down and it made him look good on the health end.  There was a sizeable portion of people who supported Occupy and still support it but not enough at the time to link to him or endanger his political future.  The one thing that killed his political aspirations ultimately was pushing to run the Marathon instead of cleaning up after the hurricane and providing aid.  He ended up not running it because of the enormous blowback but the damage was done and his mask had come off.

Don't even get me started on Giulliani.  From what I remember a definite question could be broached on moving the anti-terrorism NYC center(or something similar) a month or even a week before 9/11.  There's also the fact 9/11 happened on his watch.  The last thing he should be able to do is capitalize on that considering first responders equipment.  You can plead ignorance but we know that TV's et al, you don't dispose of them at a local landfill because of hazardous materials.  I haven't even got into the racial problems on his watch.  Wasn't Rudy's admin. the one where the African immigrant ended up shot 16 times coming out of his apartment?

The Disneylanding of Times Square and the conversion of NYC from a working class city into one pandering to tourists disgusts me.  I would rather see a bit of warts along with high quality eclectic local businesses then a massive storefront for Big Businesses.

 

Commenting on the white collar criminals, the issue is their crimes indirectly lead to some of those nasty acts.  The problem is how do we downgrade those people's salary across the board especially with CEOs, CFOs, etc.  One of my suggestions would be to BAN any Fortune 500 companies from funding any media outlets like MSNBC, CNBC, CNN, CNN Headline, FOX Business, Al-Jazeera America, FNC or Bloomberg.  I'm talking indefinitely and having this decision made by shareholders.  If ESPN involuntarily bloats athletes salaries by forced carriage in Cable and Satellite packages then the above networks distort shareholder perception of a CEO and lead to an otherwise unlikely salary proposal.  The alphabet news networks present these men and women CEO's as the quarterback, the only ones who will throw the winning pass.

Now I'm just venting but I still propose banning that funding.


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"Friends let friends eat each other out.".

#138 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 09:02 PM

Correlation doesn't equal causation.  Meaning, there's no way to know if crime in Detroit would have gone down without an increase in conceal carry. Violent crime is steadily declining across the US, not just Detroit.  It has been for years, of course you'd never know that watching or reading most news.

 

http://time.com/3577...tes-drop-1970s/

 

Furthermore, I like these articles a little more explaining just what went down in that bank robbery you cited:

 

http://www.mlive.com..._concealed.html

 

http://www.freep.com...arren/72631112/

 

The salient points:

-The vigilante emptied his gun firing at the robber.  Emptied, and only hit him 3 times.  That was 3 hits out of 8 shots.  That's 5 bullets flying through the air that don't know they're intended for the robber.

-The vigilante fired at the robber, as he was leaving the scene.  As in, the danger to the bank and its customers was ending until Dirty Harry decided to be a cowboy and potentially start a shootout.

Actually, he didn't shoot at a fleeing suspect.  But hey, way to misrepresent again!

 


Kendrick was standing near the counter when Mann then trained the gun on him. He told Kendrick to step behind the counter with three other bank employees.

 

But Kendrick said that he couldn’t. Mann then grabbed him by the back of the neck and pushed him to one side of the counter, the complaint said.

 

Mann then demanded that he be given “all the (expletive) money,” with no hidden dye packs, according to the complaint.

Employees handed him the cash, but Kendrick looked over his shoulder and put a round in the chamber of his concealed Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9 mm, which could hold eight rounds, according to Fouts and Warren Police. He had a license to carry a concealed weapon, Fouts said.

 

Then Kendrick opened fire. He emptied the rounds, hitting the robber three times – once in each arm, and once in a leg. Another shot smashed the glass of a bank’s window.

 

Mann never returned fire, though his Colt Mark IV was found to be loaded.

 

Moments later, Mann staggered out of the bank and fell. Of the $11,000 or so he dropped, about $2,000 is still missing, Fouts said.

 

When it says "he emptied the gun as the suspect tried to flee", they're referring to the fact that he fired and then the guy decided to suddenly flee.  As in, "Oh shit, I'm now getting shot at, time to leave!".  Otherwise, charges would've been put forward for the CPL holder because he was no longer a threat.  Which is also why the shoplifter shooter is going to get charged.

 

Yes, he missed.  But he also didn't injure anyone else because he made sure his backdrop was clear.  Misses happen, which is why classes and training emphasize making sure you know your target, and what is behind it.

 

Interestingly enough, even HuffPo wrote an article on the fact that Detroit has had plenty of successful self defense cases:  http://www.huffingto..._n_5128271.html

 

I'm not claiming causation.  I'm claiming that you misrepresenting most CPL holders as irresponsible is wrong.  A "good guy" with a gun defends themselves and others without hitting / killing others on a regular basis.  https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/ has a decent list that is ever expanding from around the country of defensive gun uses.

 

And dohdough, of course that article I picked was going to be from a pro-gun website.  It was written by a friend of mine who happens to train civilians.  Every year he gives free lessons to women (here's an article on it:  http://www.wxyz.com/...n-sunday-may-17).

 

All in all, I think trying to paint CPL holders as "bad guys" is wrong.  Statistically speaking, they commit less crimes than non-CPL holders despite the fact that their fingerprints are on record.  If they do commit a crime (felony or domestic violence related), it's revoked (along with their firearms).  It might have to do with the fact that getting a CPL requires actually taking a class, getting fingerprinted, paying, and going through a background check.  Most criminals that are going to commit a crime aren't willing to go through that.


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#139 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:08 PM

Uhhh...quoting your friend doesn't help your argument, dude. That's the epitome of a biased source.


dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#140 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:10 PM

Uhhh...quoting your friend doesn't help your argument, dude. That's the epitome of a biased source.

The news articles he referenced were valid. He's been quoted in various news articles because he's an expert on the subject of firearms. You know you can have friends that are experts, right?

#141 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6773 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:22 PM

The news articles he referenced were valid. He's been quoted in various news articles because he's an expert on the subject of firearms. You know you can have friends that are experts, right?

You're trolling me, right? How about I introduce you to my friend Giorgio, he's one of the foremost experts in his field that has a similar cv to your friend:

3943c5c7d78f9b0e302eb3d61f201298.jpg

And btw, if you're going to whine about cherry picking, you don't get to do the same thing by not owning one of your own ideological peers if they Fuck up. Talk about being hypocritical...
dohdough.png


"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#142 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:26 PM

Actually, he didn't shoot at a fleeing suspect. But hey, way to misrepresent again!


When it says "he emptied the gun as the suspect tried to flee", they're referring to the fact that he fired and then the guy decided to suddenly flee. As in, "Oh shit, I'm now getting shot at, time to leave!". Otherwise, charges would've been put forward for the CPL holder because he was no longer a threat. Which is also why the shoplifter shooter is going to get charged.

Yes, he missed. But he also didn't injure anyone else because he made sure his backdrop was clear. Misses happen, which is why classes and training emphasize making sure you know your target, and what is behind it.

Interestingly enough, even HuffPo wrote an article on the fact that Detroit has had plenty of successful self defense cases: http://www.huffingto..._n_5128271.html

I'm not claiming causation. I'm claiming that you misrepresenting most CPL holders as irresponsible is wrong. A "good guy" with a gun defends themselves and others without hitting / killing others on a regular basis. https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/ has a decent list that is ever expanding from around the country of defensive gun uses.

And dohdough, of course that article I picked was going to be from a pro-gun website. It was written by a friend of mine who happens to train civilians. Every year he gives free lessons to women (here's an article on it: http://www.wxyz.com/...n-sunday-may-17).

All in all, I think trying to paint CPL holders as "bad guys" is wrong. Statistically speaking, they commit less crimes than non-CPL holders despite the fact that their fingerprints are on record. If they do commit a crime (felony or domestic violence related), it's revoked (along with their firearms). It might have to do with the fact that getting a CPL requires actually taking a class, getting fingerprinted, paying, and going through a background check. Most criminals that are going to commit a crime aren't willing to go through that.

http://www.mlive.com..._concealed.html

As Mann was leaving with the cash, Kendrick, an autoworker according to the Macomb Daily, pulled out his own gun and fired on Mann.

How is that a misrepresentation?

And I never said conceal carry holders were "bad guys". I do believe there's a troubling amount of adrenaline seeking amateur vigilantes who carry a gun not for protection but for their one chance to live out their very own Dirty Harry/John McClane moment. How many? I have no idea but as problematic as police shootings have been, Id still prefer law enforcement carrying a gun than Joe Schmoe, passed a background check and got fingerprinted so he's clearly A-OK.

You have no evidence to support your claim that Kendrick made sure there was a clear backdrop before opening fire. That's your own conjecture.

#143 Fearia   I'a Cthulhu! CAGiversary!   1286 Posts   Joined 7.5 Years Ago  

Posted 09 October 2015 - 11:54 PM

Strange. I call the person who did wrong a bad guy, but I'm ignoring and cherry picking? I'd love for you to prove that CPL holders are the problem with real numbers and statistics. However, from what I've witnessed, it's the exact opposite. Feel free to prove me wrong though instead of stating opinions. Oh, and how do I know he checked the backdrop? Because I live in the area and know the location pretty well. If he didn't, he'd almost certainly hit someone else. But he didn't hit anyone else, stopped a threat, and was praised by LE and the mayor. Yet you find something wrong somehow. Back to hiding from the trolls I go!

#144 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:11 AM

Strange. I call the person who did wrong a bad guy, but I'm ignoring and cherry picking?I'd love for you to prove that CPL holders are the problem with real numbers and statistics. However, from what I've witnessed, it's the exact opposite. Feel free to prove me wrong though instead of stating opinions. Oh, and how do I know he checked the backdrop? Because I live in the area and know the location pretty well. If he didn't, he'd almost certainly hit someone else. But he didn't hit anyone else, stopped a threat, and was praised by LE and the mayor. Yet you find something wrong somehow.Back to hiding from the trolls I go!

See, now we're back to where we started which is that I'm telling you is that the simple existence of a correlation between a decrease in violent crimes and an increase in conceal carry permits doesn't mean one is caused by the other, particularly in light of the fact that violent crime has been decreasing at a similar rate across the nation.

I'm assuming your "cherry picking" comment is wth regard to fleeing vs leaving. You jumped on a vagueness in one article where it states he was shot as he was leaving. Nowhere in the article does it say what you are trying to put forth, which is hat he began to flee when he was shot at. On the other hand, the article I cited directly states he was leaving with the money (ergo the imminent threat was over) when Kendrick drew his weapon and opened fire on him.

All you are answering with is "because I know" and "I live nearby so I have superior knowledge". You cited one article which hypothesizes a connection between conceal carry permit increases causing a decrease in violent crime but even there the strongest evidence they have to support this is an opinion from a police officer. The data shows a correlation, it does not prove a causation. I also never stated conceal carry holders are the problem, I think they have the potential to be a problem, but they are not the problem at the heart of the gun violence issue.

#145 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   6715 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:48 AM

For every bad guy with a gun, there has to be a good guy with a gun, there are no idiots with a gun.


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#146 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 10.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:39 PM

Anybody here for confiscation and full ban? If not, what measures do you want to see in place? I do not want to make it so a person can not defend themselves, especially in their own home. Wouldn't further costs added through regulation be unfair to the poor to obtain a way of defending themselves like Liberals claim voter ID requirements would?

#147 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   6715 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 13 October 2015 - 11:43 PM

http://www.nbcnews.c...hooting-n443951

This is an outrage for our Second Amendment Rights and as our rights to be a small business owner.


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#148 TheN8torious   Shhh...I'm Invisible CAGiversary!   16544 Posts   Joined 10.2 Years Ago  

TheN8torious

Posted 14 October 2015 - 01:50 AM

I'm so uncomfortable with concealed carry. I am ALL FOR gun ownership, especially as a means for protecting your home and your family. I am 100% in favor of castle law. If my doors are locked and somebody breaks and enters, I don't care what their intentions are or if they are the Pope or Jesus himself...they deserve to be shot. You don't get to explain yourself when you're doing shit you shouldn't be doing in places you shouldn't be.

 

But I also 100% DO NOT trust my general neighbor's ability to make good decisions involving lethal weapons. I don't trust them to assess danger properly, or to figure out if anybody else is in the crossfire. People are dumb as shit and can barely walk or drive without catastrophic events taking place. And it is absolutely creating a world of vigilantes who take it upon themselves to be judge, jury, and executioner.

 

I didn't see you guys mention it, but there was one at a Waffle House the other day.

http://www.wyff4.com...uspect/35795498

 

So yeah, armed robber, scary situation...but the guy was outside in his car and decided to confront the robber as he was leaving. The shoplifting example you guys were talking about is even more crazy. If we are at a point where criminal = shoot...regardless of the crime or who else is around, then I am seriously staying my ass at home and shopping on Amazon. I want no part of this OK Corral (ha, at Golden Corral next probably), wild west bullshit where everybody needs to act like fucking Wyatt Earp.



#149 irideabike   no show CAGiversary!   6039 Posts   Joined 8.0 Years Ago  

irideabike

Posted 19 October 2015 - 04:11 AM

I'm so uncomfortable with concealed carry. I am ALL FOR gun ownership, especially as a means for protecting your home and your family. I am 100% in favor of castle law. If my doors are locked and somebody breaks and enters, I don't care what their intentions are or if they are the Pope or Jesus himself...they deserve to be shot. You don't get to explain yourself when you're doing shit you shouldn't be doing in places you shouldn't be.

But I also 100% DO NOT trust my general neighbor's ability to make good decisions involving lethal weapons. I don't trust them to assess danger properly, or to figure out if anybody else is in the crossfire. People are dumb as shit and can barely walk or drive without catastrophic events taking place. And it is absolutely creating a world of vigilantes who take it upon themselves to be judge, jury, and executioner.

I didn't see you guys mention it, but there was one at a Waffle House the other day.
http://www.wyff4.com...uspect/35795498

So yeah, armed robber, scary situation...but the guy was outside in his car and decided to confront the robber as he was leaving. The shoplifting example you guys were talking about is even more crazy. If we are at a point where criminal = shoot...regardless of the crime or who else is around, then I am seriously staying my ass at home and shopping on Amazon. I want no part of this OK Corral (ha, at Golden Corral next probably), wild west bullshit where everybody needs to act like fucking Wyatt Earp.


You'd be the first one sucking the dick of a cop in the same situation.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

Madden 13 SB Champ in the CAG gentleman's league.


#150 TheN8torious   Shhh...I'm Invisible CAGiversary!   16544 Posts   Joined 10.2 Years Ago  

TheN8torious

Posted 19 October 2015 - 04:22 AM

You'd be the first one sucking the dick of a cop in the same situation.

Um...ok? I don't even know what you think you're responding to. But good for you, I guess...?