2012 MLB Discussion

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[quote name='GhostShark']I really dislike how Bagwell and Piazza are suffering because of the era they played in. [/QUOTE]

It's disgusting.

It's not going to get easier for these guys either. Next year they have to compete with Maddux and Glavine, then with Randy Johnson and Pedro the year after. I suspect Biggio will get in eventually, but some of these guys like Piazza and Bagwell who not only 100% deserve to be there but also have never been accused of using steroids might be waiting a long time.

This is really about the egos of many members of the BBWAA. So many of these guys got swept up in that era too and failed to do their jobs in reporting on the steroid era while it was happening, now it's just about petty revenge masquerading as righteous indignation.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher of all time, and it isn't even close.[/QUOTE]

And yet, still less than 40% of the vote.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']And yet, still less than 40% of the vote.[/QUOTE]

It's obvious that in the eyes of the writers, if you played in that era you're guilty until proven innocent. Especially if you're a hitter.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Hall of Fame shutout.

I'd say it's about time that the BBWAA no longer gets to decide who's in and who's out. I'm not sure what the best way to do it is, but it isn't this.

I feel especially bad for a guy like Biggio, who should definitely be in the Hall of Fame and yet gets swept up in this nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely right. Any player who hangs around long enough will get 3,000 hits, that's why it happens all the time. :roll:

Biggio's lifetime WAR puts him inside top 100 position players who ever played the game, he's certainly one of the best offensive 2nd basement ever, and he played 20 seasons providing good defense at three premium defensive positions. He wasn't an OPS machine, but that was never his role. 13 players in MLB history scored more runs than this guy.

There are plenty of players with similar profiles to Biggio in the Hall. "Compiling" as you put it isn't a knock against him, if it were easy to be as consistent as that dude was there would be more guys doing it. He absolutely deserves to be in, as do most of the guys on this ballot.

The reason he didn't get in (besides writers who seemed to categorically refuse to vote for anyone on this ballot) is because of the silly notion about whether someone is a "first ballot Hall of Famer" or not. If you're Hall worthy, you're worthy. Same thing happened to Barry Larkin, and many others. The "first ballot" distinction has always been stupid. He'll get in eventually, but it's ridiculous that he's not in now.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.[/QUOTE]

So Ichiro doesn't deserve to be in the HoF either? Biggio definitely deserves to be in with Piazza and Bagwell.
 
[quote name='tcrash247']So Ichiro doesn't deserve to be in the HoF either? Biggio definitely deserves to be in with Piazza and Bagwell.[/QUOTE]

Please guys. Biggio had ONE 200-hit-season.

Ichiro had TEN straight. And then his next season, (184) would be Biggio's 4th best season in 20 years.

Biggio's a solid player. Not even great, definitely not a HOF'er.

He never dominated.
 
This is what happens when you have 600 voters and only about 1/2 to 2/3 actually cover baseball anymore.

And to those who sent in blank ballots, punishing even those who did not play in the steroid era, then frak you.
 
I think the only vote percentage that really irked me when I read it was Fred McGriff's. I feel Crime Dog is a Hall of Famer, and it really surprises me that he only got 20 percent of the vote.
 
I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the fuck voted for Aaron Sele?
 
what made this is worse is that there are some writers who left it blank like Howard Bryant. Why give them a vote if they are just going to toss it away.

I can't stand the BBWA sometimes. They pretty much deemed themselves as the moral police. If steroids is cheating than what level are pine tar, amphetamines, and corked bats are on? Gaylord Perry should have never made the Hall if thats the case do to his spit balls. That is what really pissed me off is that they are cheaters in baseball without steroids but they look all holier than thou compared to these guys. The consistency is amazing.

Oh if Bert Blyleven is a HoF than Jack Morris is one too. How does that work out?

I hated what happened to Bagwell and Piazza. Piazza wasnt even named on the Mitchell report and its just lame whispers that are keeping him out.

What a crappy day for baseball and its fans.
 
[quote name='ced']I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the fuck voted for Aaron Sele?[/QUOTE]

His dad MUST have a vote.
 
[quote name='ced']I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the fuck voted for Aaron Sele?[/QUOTE]

I was listening to MLB Network radio and they suggested that a reporter who had Sele as a clubhouse informant voted for him.
 
The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.
 
Yeah, the Rangers have moved on from him. However, Evan Grant reported that is a terrible excuse for a human being. I'm not really sold on Texas' lineup next year, but I can deal with it. For me, it all depends on Berkman, Kinsler and Cruz having good seasons, at least better than last season for Kinsler and Cruz.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.[/QUOTE]


Really clueless as to why Towers would even think for a moment he would accept a trade to a team on his no trade list. That's like a restaurant trying to force a vegan to eat meat. It will never happen.

The Mariners did HUGELY overpay for him though and they should send Upton a gift basket for not accepting the trade. They gave up way too much in the deal. Top position prospect, best pitching prospect, and 2 MLB arms just for Upton. I do not think many GMs would do that but then again, the Mariners never cease to amaze me every year.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']Really clueless as to why Towers would even think for a moment he would accept a trade to a team on his no trade list. That's like a restaurant trying to force a vegan to eat meat. It will never happen.

The Mariners did HUGELY overpay for him though and they should send Upton a gift basket for not accepting the trade. They gave up way too much in the deal. Top position prospect, best pitching prospect, and 2 MLB arms just for Upton. I do not think many GMs would do that but then again, the Mariners never cease to amaze me every year.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, I think it was fair trade. Walker and Franklin did not have good years once they were promoted (4.69 ERA and 3.6 BB/9 in AA) ( .243/.310/.416 in AAA). Furbush was a mess before last year, Pryor is the only safe bet in the deal. Hell, I think Arizona can do better than a top 15 prospect, a top 50 prospect; both of whom had down years, and 2 relievers.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.[/QUOTE]

As long as D-Backs pay his salary they can shit all over him as long as they don't violate the contract. Upton has a contract and the players union to protect him. If they hold his paycheck then he has a grievance.
 
I don't know if I like last night's Nationals trade or not. Getting Cole back is great, but losing Morse...yeah, I dunno. I'm not seeing where the Nationals are going to make up those runs with their projected lineup right now.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I don't know if I like last night's Nationals trade or not. Getting Cole back is great, but losing Morse...yeah, I dunno. I'm not seeing where the Nationals are going to make up those runs with their projected lineup right now.[/QUOTE]

Where would you put Morse though? You can't not start LaRoche, Harper, Werth or Span. It sucks losing his production, but they couldn't keep him. It's too bad the Phillies are in the same division, I would have loved to get Morse.
 
Who the hell is Span?

Harper can hit. Werth hits seldomly. Zimmerman can hit, but is inconsistent and has been somewhat injury prone the last couple of years. LaRoche can hit but he's old and I doubt he can keep up his production from last year. Desmond was a surprise last year, but I'm skeptical if he can continue that trend this year. Even though Rizzo is getting more pitchers, I'm not seeing where we're going to make up a lot of production.

I like the idea of getting a deeper bullpen because it was dreadfully thin last year because they were relied upon so heavily early on. Not to mention that Nats starters RARELY went more than 6 innings, which definitely caused them to get burnt out later on in the year. But I have to question it when you take one of your best bats out of the lineup.

Then again, he did with Adam Duh and it worked out, so maybe it will here too.
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spande01.shtml

I'd argue that he is one of the better centerfielders in the league, and is still 28. Decent WAR last year (and pretty good dWAR). Plus he is a Nard Dog.

I like the Morse trade, seeing as how both teams win. I highly doubt Morse is an everday player in Washington, but he will be in Seattle. I've always liked Morse as a player. I would've liked to see him as a Ranger, but that became impossible once they signed Berkman.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Who the hell is Span?[/QUOTE]

Your centerfielder, Nationals fan.

He definitely is one of the better CFs in baseball, I wish the Phillies got him instead of Revere.
 
The Braves have acquired Justin Upton. I'm a little peaved at Kevin Towers because the offer The Rangers had on the table blew Atlanta's out of the way, but I guess this isn't a surprise considering Towers isn't the brightest GM.

Time for the Rangers to move on with what they got (a wild card team, at best). They could be saving their pieces for Price or Stanton, but lately JD has been very crude and selfish with the overabundance of prospects he has.
 
I'm glad the Braves got done what everyone in the Philadelphia area thought the Phillies were going to do. I'm totally loving Ryan Howard's contract right about now.
 
Amaro has to be the stupidest GM in the game. On top of Howard's contract, claiming that he does not care about walks and that he signed Young for his "production" (.267 .296 .411) is fucking ridiculous. Oh yeah, he also expects him to be the starting RF.

I'll just leave this here.

delmon-throw.gif
 
I know, I know. I'm not happy about it either. And the more I think about it and read about it, the Revere trade isn't that great either. It's been a pretty terrible offseason for us and I fully expect a third place finish (maybe even fourth depending on how the Mets look and if they get Bourn). At least we'll get a high draft pick out of it and hopefully a few of our minor leaguers show serious development and can make the team next season.
 
If the D-Backs cant lock up Prado, then Wren hijacked the D-Backs. They still kept Andrelton Simmons. There was no room for Randal Delgado in that rotation anyway so he became expendable. Not giving up simmons was just a huge bonus. well played wren.
 
As much as I am annoyed about the Phillies signing Delmon Young, it even bothers me more knowing that this is going to hurt Dominic Brown and Darin Ruf's playing time. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ruf start the season in AAA now.

[quote name='tcrash247']I know, I know. I'm not happy about it either. And the more I think about it and read about it, the Revere trade isn't that great either. It's been a pretty terrible offseason for us and I fully expect a third place finish (maybe even fourth depending on how the Mets look and if they get Bourn). At least we'll get a high draft pick out of it and hopefully a few of our minor leaguers show serious development and can make the team next season.[/QUOTE]

Yeah 3rd place seems likely. I thought for sure at the minimum the Phillies will get one of the 2 wildcards if Utley, Howard and Halladay stay healthy but now even a wildcard doesn't seem like a sure thing.
 
[quote name='YoshiFan1']As much as I am annoyed about the Phillies signing Delmon Young, it even bothers me more knowing that this is going to hurt Dominic Brown and Darin Ruf's playing time. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ruf start the season in AAA now.



Yeah 3rd place seems likely. I thought for sure at the minimum the Phillies will get one of the 2 wildcards if Utley, Howard and Halladay stay healthy but now even a wildcard doesn't seem like a sure thing.[/QUOTE]

They are done with Brown. They should have never signed Young if they had faith in Brown playing in the big leagues. I hear stories that Ruf is the man the Phillies want to shoot up to the roster this year.

here is a good article on Fangraphs dealing with the Phillies OF situation with Young signed what options they could take. To them it looks like one of the two are the odd man out.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']If the D-Backs cant lock up Prado, then Wren hijacked the D-Backs. They still kept Andrelton Simmons. There was no room for Randal Delgado in that rotation anyway so he became expendable. Not giving up simmons was just a huge bonus. well played wren.[/QUOTE]

Yep. It was a great move. Got a great player and didn't give up any key pieces at all.

Have Justin Upton and Heyward locked up through the 2015 season, and BJ Upton through 2017, so the outfield is set for the next few seasons barring injury. And they added some needed power to the line up.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep. It was a great move. Got a great player and didn't give up any key pieces at all.

Have Justin Upton and Heyward locked up through the 2015 season, and BJ Upton through 2017, so the outfield is set for the next few seasons barring injury. And they added some needed power to the line up.[/QUOTE]

Not just power, right-handed power. And people are sleeping on Chris Johnson as a throw-in to that deal. I think he has a chance to be a solid player if he's given the opportunity. I'm not really sold on Juan Francisco.
 
I still wanna believe in Dan Duquette, I really wanna. But the "Nobody wants anyone but Bundy or Machado" excuse is wearing thin. At least sign Bourn or something!
 
[quote name='DNukem170']I still wanna believe in Dan Duquette, I really wanna. But the "Nobody wants anyone but Bundy or Machado" excuse is wearing thin. At least sign Bourn or something![/QUOTE]

Angelos wont give him the money.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep. It was a great move. Got a great player and didn't give up any key pieces at all.

Have Justin Upton and Heyward locked up through the 2015 season, and BJ Upton through 2017, so the outfield is set for the next few seasons barring injury. And they added some needed power to the line up.[/QUOTE]

looking at it further....They didnt even give up Julio Tehran or J.R Graham...who i think will be even better than Delgado.

Yeah I am impressed by Wren. He loaded up a full squad with tons of youth and some of the youth are already vets. Looks like the Nats are going to have some big competition on their hands.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Angelos wont give him the money.[/QUOTE]

Angelos stopped meddling when he hired McPhail. DD and Buck (and Peter's son Louis) run the team now. Hell, Peter barely even attends the games anymore. The only players who have even met the guy are Brian Roberts and Nick Markakis (and maybe Adam Jones).

Not to mention, spending money has never been a problem for Peter. It is just that it wasn't spent wisely (see: Albert Belle, Tejada, that year they spent $50 million on the bullpen only for all of them but Chad Bradford and Jamie Walker to fail horribly).
 
[quote name='DNukem170']Angelos stopped meddling when he hired McPhail. DD and Buck (and Peter's son Louis) run the team now. Hell, Peter barely even attends the games anymore. The only players who have even met the guy are Brian Roberts and Nick Markakis (and maybe Adam Jones).

Not to mention, spending money has never been a problem for Peter. It is just that it wasn't spent wisely (see: Albert Belle, Tejada, that year they spent $50 million on the bullpen only for all of them but Chad Bradford and Jamie Walker to fail horribly).[/QUOTE]

Just maintaining their current lineup puts them close to 100 million after arbitration. Thats a gpod amount of money for a team that had trouble drawing for a lot of the season.

Also bad day for baseball with all the PED stuff coming out. If A-Rod was still on roids they need to void his contract.
 
I think the Orioles will draw a lot better this year, given their success last year. I think there's a feeling of hope that had been gone for so long.
 
[quote name='crunchewy']I think the Orioles will draw a lot better this year, given their success last year. I think there's a feeling of hope that had been gone for so long.[/QUOTE]

While they will draw better, the lack of splash in the offseason dampers some of the enthusiasm and they will need to get off to a fast start to keep the good will. I still don't see non-big draws (i.e. anybody but the Yankees, Red Sox, and most NL teams) attendance more than 20-24k though.
 
The biggest challenge for the O's is Baltimore is a fairly small and poor city/metro area. And once the Nats moved in that split the market and gave the DC metro crowd less reason to make the trek up I-95. Especially now that the Nats are good as well.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Just maintaining their current lineup puts them close to 100 million after arbitration. Thats a gpod amount of money for a team that had trouble drawing for a lot of the season.

Also bad day for baseball with all the PED stuff coming out. If A-Rod was still on roids they need to void his contract.[/QUOTE]

If A-Rod really gets busted for it twice in his career, the league needs to just bury him. I say this as a Yankees fan. If he's that much of a selfish prick and has no respect for the game, then make him a scapegoat and throw his ass under the bus. If MLB can save any face at all by punishing these players and taking away as much of what they've cheated to gain as they can, then so be it. I don't know how you could honor A-Rod's contract after this. He might as well be stealing the money.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']If A-Rod really gets busted for it twice in his career, the league needs to just bury him. I say this as a Yankees fan. If he's that much of a selfish prick and has no respect for the game, then make him a scapegoat and throw his ass under the bus. If MLB can save any face at all by punishing these players and taking away as much of what they've cheated to gain as they can, then so be it. I don't know how you could honor A-Rod's contract after this. He might as well be stealing the money.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately PED penalties have been collectively bargained for, the only thing MLB can do is suspend him 50 games.

Hopefully he plays zero games this year so the insurance policy kicks in, then they can offer him 75 cents on the dollar of the rest of his contract and buy him out.

Yankee ownership only has theirselves to blame, they went over Cashman's head when he said he wouldn't sign Arod if he opted out. Not to mention no other team would have given him $300 million.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']Unfortunately PED penalties have been collectively bargained for, the only thing MLB can do is suspend him 50 games.

Hopefully he plays zero games this year so the insurance policy kicks in, then they can offer him 75 cents on the dollar of the rest of his contract and buy him out.

Yankee ownership only has theirselves to blame, they went over Cashman's head when he said he wouldn't sign Arod if he opted out. Not to mention no other team would have given him $300 million.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so, but if this turns into a giant drug ring "BALCO" situation like they're speculating, I wouldn't be surprised if the government got involved. All I'm saying is that whatever heat A-Rod gets from this, MLB (and the Yankees) need to just let him take it. No defending him or coddling him or whatever. I wouldn't even blame them if they wanted to make him look worse and accuse him of trying to ruin the game. Whatever negative press they want to deflect away from themselves and put on Alex, I'm all for.

How many huge mistakes does this guy need to make? He's got to be the most colossal fuck up in baseball history. Cheating once, ok, you could say you got caught up in it, made a bad decision, etc. Nobody's perfect...and as Andy Pettitte has proven, if you're humble about it, people are willing to forgive. But when you get busted multiple times, you've got to just be a scumbag, no? I keep thinking of Pete Rose every time I hear about this crap and the absolute media thrashing he has taken for decades. Trying to cheat multiple times has to be worse than just betting on your games doesn't it? I just feel like nobody should be in A-Rod's corner on this one. The Yankees, MLB, Derek Jeter, etc. need to just step back and let him go down on this one.
 
As an Orioles fan, I would like him to be in the lineup at all times, especially if he swings like he did last September and October. :)
 
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