CAG Community Xbox 360 Failure Survey Results

Its not a bad idea.. actually. Heck, I already have a PS3, but maybe I could trade in my 360 and get a Wii, and buy 360 at a later date, and cheaper price.
 
[quote name='Blinkman987']All CheapyD did with this poll is show why he has no concept of the scientific method or objective ways to observe and arrive at legitimate results. If you really think your information is not disputable, you're delusional.[/quote]

quoted for truth.
 
[quote name='Blinkman987']All CheapyD did with this poll is show why he has no concept of the scientific method or objective ways to observe and arrive at legitimate results. If you really think your information is not disputable, you're delusional.[/quote]

Defensive much? CheapyD already explained himself well enough in the OP.

[quote name='CheapyD in the OP']While I do believe these results accurately reflect the CAG community experiences, I have no way of knowing if these results apply to the general public. It's probably safe to assume that members of an online video game community use their systems more than others. I'd imagine that increased use could lead to increased console failures.

In order to keep the survey simple, I only asked if CAGs experienced one console failure or more than one failure. If I included more options, we would have a more accurate representation of the actual percentage of console failure.[/quote]

BTW, great post mechafenris!
 
"While I do believe these results accurately reflect the CAG community experiences, I have no way of knowing if these results apply to the general public. It's probably safe to assume that members of an online video game community use their systems more than others. I'd imagine that increased use could lead to increased console failures."

Lulz.

You really think people answered that survey honestly and its an accurate sample to begin with?

There's some definite fail going on here but its not necessarily the 360...
 
[quote name='fake larry']Lulz.

You really think people answered that survey honestly and its an accurate sample to begin with?

There's some definite fail going on here but its not necessarily the 360...[/QUOTE]

There's clearly bias in the survey, but any one that doesn't think the 360 is a flawed, PoS from a hardware reliability point is a fucking moron or a fanboy (not that those two are mutually exclusive).

Why do you think MS shelled out 1 billion dollars to extend the warranty and announced that every console had a flaw that could lead to the RROD break down? They were going to get their asses sued off for charging people for repairs on a console they new had a critical design flaw.
 
First let me state I am not a fanboy of any console. Like I stated earlier I own pretty much every major console ever produced. Second let me say that I have a degree in Biology and Anthropology. I have written many scientific papers. So I have somewhat of a background in scientific studies.

Those of you who are defending the scientific nature of this poll because of Cheapy's "explanations" in the original post... Please go take a science class or something.

Let's take a closer look at this poll.

This was an open poll. Anyone could vote. People who don't even own 360s could vote. Now for the sake of argument lets say there is part of the population that only owns one console and are extreme fanboys for the console that they own. Lets say for the sake of argument 1/3 own Wiis, 1/3 own 360's and 1/3 own PS3s. These extreme fanboys don't even own 360s so you have 2/3 of this population voting against the 360, and out of the 1/3 of those who own 360s they would likely vote honestly. So those 360 fanboy who has a broken console has less motivation to say he hasn't had the red ring just to cancel out other consoles fanboys. Cheapy's explanation that the fanboy will just cancel each other out is highly unlikely.

His explanation that results would be made public to keep people honest is laughable. This is an internet message board, the peak of anonymity.

Large sample size of 3,500? Yes this would be a large sample size if you randomly contacted the people you have verified to own 360s. It is not a large sample size considering it is only people who visit a video game website, unverified to even own 360s, and not random at all.

Also, let me just conclude I am not defending Microsoft in anyway. I think the failure rate is inexcusable. What I am defending is the scientific method, this is a totally non-scientific, probably very skewed (in many ways) poll and should be treated as such.
 
[quote name='fake larry']"While I do believe these results accurately reflect the CAG community experiences, I have no way of knowing if these results apply to the general public. It's probably safe to assume that members of an online video game community use their systems more than others. I'd imagine that increased use could lead to increased console failures."

Lulz.

You really think people answered that survey honestly and its an accurate sample to begin with?

There's some definite fail going on here but its not necessarily the 360...[/quote]

Speaking of fail, you failed to put up the second part of the quote where CheapyD says that if he would've included more options for the survey, the results would have been more accurate.

Also, a $1,000,000,000 pre-emptive plan to fix the RROD problem sounds like Microsoft failed at something. The xbox360 is a great console and currently has the best library of games (IMO), but the hardware problems we've all experienced is inexcusable.
 
[quote name='hbkdinobot']
Those of you who are defending the scientific nature of this poll because of Cheapy's "explanations" in the original post... Please go take a science class or something.
[/QUOTE]

No one is defending it. I have a social science degree and do research as well. This is not a scientific poll. People are just responding to jackasses who posted in this and other threads with shit implying that the failure rate is a fabrication of people that hate MS, people bring on RROD themselves by abusing their console etc. The 360 is flawed, MS admitted this when they extended the warranty.

But clearly, this is a biased poll as people are going to be more likely to vote if they've gotten an RROD broke, it was an open poll, it was not random, etc. etc.

As such, I'm sure the failure rate is over-estimated. The actual failure rate is probably closer to the 30-40% figure that's been estimated by analysts.

The recent article showed that 16% of people with instore warranties had used them. That of course is an underestimate as that just gets the suckers that bought the store warranties vs. those who use MSs free warrnaty (one year before, and now 3 years for RROD) which will be the majority of people as most people don't opt for the in store protection plans.

As such 30-40% sounds like a better estimate.
 
[quote name='hbkdinobot']So those 360 fanboy who has a broken console has less motivation to say he hasn't had the red ring just to cancel out other consoles fanboys. Cheapy's explanation that the fanboy will just cancel each other out is highly unlikely. [/quote]

First of all, I don't think there is anybody who wants to protect Microsoft by not reporting a RRODed 360 to this poll. I love my 360 and I am glad that Microsoft made it available to me, but I was upset when my Box red ringed and I was pissed right off when their replacement unit died the day after I got it.

Having said that, If I saw this poll in December, I would have gladly checked the "Have a >6 month old living Xbox360."

The point is, we have no idea how skewed the results may be, but you can have a pretty big error rate and still see that this is a baaaad situation for Microsoft. We'll just never know exactly how bad it is.
 
I got mine in April '06, right about when these problems were coming to light (and before people really realized the magnitude of problem) and haven't had an issue at all, aside from a random lockup once in Oblivion about a month after I got it. I do know a few people who have been visited by the RROD, though. It's really a shame how unreliable these things are; as a games machine it's top notch. I have all three and by far I've put the more hours on my 360 than on the other two combined since I've had all three.

I don't know if it's helped, but once I heard about the issues with the system, I've kept in it's vertical position with all 3 open sides really well ventilated, thinking that the more airflow the better. I still have that sinking feeling that it will die at some point, I just hope that when it does they'll have a completely redesigned console, as the reliability now (even with what I'm hearing about newer models) is unteneble, and that they'll figure out how to transfer the damn stuff I bought to the new one so I can use it without having to be online (if it happens after the warranty expires, I figure I'll be better off getting a new one with a brand new warranty, and if it gets repaired I'd rather not have a damn dummy account to redownload everything. Can't they figure out a damn way to update the console signature, invalidate the old one and let me redownload the stuff so it gets tied to the new one? Damn DRM).

Anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I tend to hold onto my consoles even after they're end of life, and having a ticking time bomb is depressing...
 
[quote name='doraemonkerpal']Speaking of fail, you failed to put up the second part of the quote where CheapyD says that if he would've included more options for the survey, the results would have been more accurate.

Also, a $1,000,000,000 pre-emptive plan to fix the RROD problem sounds like Microsoft failed at something. The xbox360 is a great console and currently has the best library of games (IMO), but the hardware problems we've all experienced is inexcusable.[/quote]


More options wouldn't change the reliability. First you need to know the statistics behind who would answer the poll to begin with. People with failed consoles would probably be more likely to answer since they have more of a vested interest. Unfortunately "probably more likely" isn't very quantifiable is it? So you would need numbers. And unfortunately these numbers can't just be pulled from someone's (cheap) ass.


Then you have the problem of people who hate MS and answer accordingly. And also the number of MS fanboys who also might lie. Again you need % of each (which I expect would be significant on this site) to factor in. Edit: I just read someone saying CheapyD said the fanboys would cancel each other out. Thats pretty much laughable. Its a good example of a factor being pulled from one's ass.


Does the 360 have reliability problems? Yes. Are they still a problem? Maybe. Are these statistics accurate? No.
 
I think the survey is partly skewed towards people who have had failures. They're more likely to participate in one of these surveys moreso than a person who has recieved no problems whatsoever. Kind of the reason why I responded was because my 360 has failed once. Before the failure, I'd usually ignore these types of surveys since they had little to do about myself (yeah, I'm egotistical, sue me).

-2 cents.
 
[quote name='fake larry']More options wouldn't change the reliability. First you need to know the statistics behind who would answer the poll to begin with. People with failed consoles would probably be more likely to answer since they have more of a vested interest. Unfortunately "probably more likely" isn't very quantifiable is it? So you would need numbers. And unfortunately these numbers can't just be pulled from someone's (cheap) ass.


Then you have the problem of people who hate MS and answer accordingly. And also the number of MS fanboys who also might lie. Again you need % of each (which I expect would be significant on this site) to factor in. Edit: I just read someone saying CheapyD said the fanboys would cancel each other out. Thats pretty much laughable. Its a good example of a factor being pulled from one's ass.


Does the 360 have reliability problems? Yes. Are they still a problem? Maybe. Are these statistics accurate? No.[/quote]

The poll taken by CheapyD is not totally accurate, but the thread it was associated with previously does give a pretty good representation of all the problems that many of the gamers have personally experienced on their xbox 360's on CAG.

People come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.
 
[quote name='stonefry']Let's go out on a ridiculously long limb and say this poll has a +/- 20% error rate. That still leaves us with a minimum of 39% of our 360s failing.[/quote]

You can't go out on that limb because it's not there. The numbers are not reliable and the method is completely awful. Yes, 360s RROD. Was this poll necessary to show people that? Then again, if you understand that this poll doesn't even show that 360s break, you win in the game of at least having some sense of how to conduct a study.
 
"The poll taken by CheapyD is not totally accurate, but the thread it was associated with previously does give a pretty good representation of all the problems that many of the gamers have personally experienced on their xbox 360's on CAG"

So a thread written by people who've had failures about failures is a good example failures people are having... so what? It tells you nothing about failure rates.

And unfortunately it doesn't even tell you much about failure rates of people who visit cheapassgamer for reasons we've already stated.
 
[quote name='Mechafenris']Not to feed the trolls, but let's face it, surveys are not bulletproof, scientific, peer-reviewed results cross-tested against a control group in laboratory conditions. But then again, why should they be? A great book you should read is "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff (first published in 1953). It shows you the inherent biases in surveys and so forth... and quite frankly will make you call into question 90% of gathered data. If it doesn't _you're_ delusional.

But, since you decided to participate, let's just put the facts out there:

1. Failure rate of the 360 is high. Very high. So high that MS took a huge warranty hit (a billion? I forget the specifics) to avoid a recall. It is impossible to tell the actual failure rate, because Microsoft will not publish the information. And in spite of your love of the scientific method, we're not going to ever find out the actual data, because it's probably worse than even we could imagine.

2. The failure rate is systemic. No console is safe from it 100%. The 3 Red Rings points to a specific, documented, and confirmed failure. The GPU's inadequate cooling is the culprit. (The Falcon chipset only shrinks the CPU, not the GPU, IIRC.) Does that mean every failure here is a RRoD? No. But it does mean that of the failures, the incidental ones are going to be dwarfed by this particular failure.

3. Not everyone's 360 fails. For whatever reason, the failure rate is not 100% simply because usage habits vary widely from person to person. Storage, location, game types, pets, humidity, sunspots, and Morlocks all contribute to the inaccuracy of "system X will fail at time Y because of Z, A, and B." Those pronouncements are impossible, because no two 360's will be used in the same manner in the same conditions. Just like when Ford recalled the cruise control mechanism in most of their trucks and cars, not every Ford caught on fire... but a significant number did enough to point to a failure in a particular part that required, due to safety concerns for all Ford owners, replacement.

4. It doesn't mean we all hate the 360. It means we're realistic about its quality. I am not going to set my elite in my driveway and set it alight in protest of that rat bastard Bill Gates. Neither am I going to claim the 360 is the best thing to happen to consoles since Pong. No extreme position is worthwhile, helpful, or very sane. Beware of anyone who cannot move beyond their infatuation with a particular object. They are more likely to be an axe murderer than the regular population... "statistically speaking" of course. :)

5. Microsoft rushed to market to beat Sony. In their haste, they inadequately designed the 360's cooling mechanism (most new and all refurbished ones seem to come with a different heatsink setup, as we've no doubt covered in other threads). It's their fault, pure and simple. It's not "user error" "gremlins" or those evil Linux partisans trying to undermine the great and unique work Bill Gates and Redmond's finest are doing.

Was it worth it? You won't be able to tell this generation. Simply beating Sony isn't going to tell you squat. What _is_ going to tell you is when the XBox 720 (or "next") comes out. If it suffers from a perception problem in the quality department, we may see the ultimate brand scarring become permanent. If not, they may have been able to slip it past most people again... either way, no matter what the quality of the next Xbox is, just like Sony, the 360 is going to dog them for quite some time. (People still talk about the plastic gears over the PSU that would warp on a Playstation 1....) It doesn't do all that much to their bottom lines, but it does create a mindset that makes people suspicious....

And I've spent entirely too much time typing this... ;)[/quote]

I've read that and I agree with almost all the points you make. All I'm questioning is how this "study/poll" is being sold to readers and how it's dishonest. There's no point in polling, and you certainly cannot suggest that 70% of the voters said they had a broken one, so 70% of 360s break. Again, because you cannot make that distinction, what's the point in polling? Doesn't the 360 3-year warranty alone suggest that there are mechanical problems?

Then again, I think most people with broken 360s are the ones who stand them upright in closed, poorly ventilated areas and then install that shitbox Nyko cooling system... Yeah, there are legitimate people with broken 360s, but plenty of idiot Sony fanbois who forgot about the PS2 class action lawsuit and rootkits that voted against the 360 just because they think they're part of some "club" that's against Microsoft.

So again, I ask what the point of the poll was and how Cheapy thinks his poll is superior to any other poll. Perhaps I should cite that Slashdot "Which school has the best comp sci program" poll mini-fiasco as further proof that polls are dumb.
 
[quote name='fake larry']So a thread written by people who've had failures about failures is a good example failures people are having... so what? It tells you nothing about failure rates.[/quote]

The thread was for people to post whether they've had an RROD with their xbox360 or not. It was open for all people to post about their good and bad experiences with the console, and not only limited to failures. Like I previously stated, the impromptu poll is not totally accurate, but it doesn't meant I'm going to discount what I've seen with my friends console, experiences with reputable CAGs and articles all over the net regarding the high failure rate of the xbox 360. Again, is the poll on the front page an accurate represenation of all the xbox 360's sold? No.
 
While I do believe the RROD's are high, I think we need a version of the poll where you need a legit gamertag to vote or something. Just a random sampling of 'people' who voted show they either don't own one and/or have a gamertag.
 
[quote name='Blinkman987']I've read that and I agree with almost all the points you make. All I'm questioning is how this "study/poll" is being sold to readers and how it's dishonest. There's no point in polling, and you certainly cannot suggest that 70% of the voters said they had a broken one, so 70% of 360s break. Again, because you cannot make that distinction, what's the point in polling? Doesn't the 360 3-year warranty alone suggest that there are mechanical problems?

Then again, I think most people with broken 360s are the ones who stand them upright in closed, poorly ventilated areas and then install that shitbox Nyko cooling system... Yeah, there are legitimate people with broken 360s, but plenty of idiot Sony fanbois who forgot about the PS2 class action lawsuit and rootkits that voted against the 360 just because they think they're part of some "club" that's against Microsoft.

So again, I ask what the point of the poll was and how Cheapy thinks his poll is superior to any other poll. Perhaps I should cite that Slashdot "Which school has the best comp sci program" poll mini-fiasco as further proof that polls are dumb.[/QUOTE]

That's why Masters & Johnson's famous "sex" survey has some people claiming nirvana and others calling shenanigans... (granted, it was taken in more detailed fashion than this one, but the point still stands...) if it's people you're dealing with, you must consider a small %age of stupid responses... a small (or large, depending upon the demographic) %age of lies... and so forth. Surveys are notoriously biased that way. What Cheapy's point was, and I think it was lost in the conversation's overall subject (because it is a thorny and very visible subject) is that cheapy's cross-section of gamers represent (unscientifically speaking) the gamut of the 360 owner. And as such, throwing out a few % due to human error/lying/morons, Cheapy's right in claiming that we're not just the hardcore nerds who would otherwise abuse a system and therefore cannot be a representative sample of the typical 360 user.

That said, you do make some great points, but I might add that the RootKit was done by another segment of Sony Corp... (just like that horrid OS Vista was done by another division of Microsoft...) It doesn't excuse it, but it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the Ps3 is a quality product w/r/t the 360... (or the original PS2 for that matter...) And those biases (on both sides) also affect, but not necessarily to the degree people would suspect, results of polls. And yes, this is not a scientific poll... but the results bear out the internet's anecdotal evidence of multiple failures for some people, and the higher than even Yugo's average when it comes to QC snafus. ;)

Also, just as an aside... I thought responding to the poll required a login... so unlike Slashdot (or CNN), you can't anonymously log in and skew the poll 50x by deleting your cookie. ;) I could be wrong about that, but I think Cheapy mentioned that in the last CAGcast...

The 3 year warranty extension, as I said in the last post, was for a specific issue, and it was MS's attempt to avoid a class-wide recall. Their decision is both benevolent and self-serving... but it does say that MS acknowledges there's a problem, but will not go any further to explain the nature of the problem, nor will they explain their procedures and plans to alleviate it in the future for the 360 owner.

I never suggested 70% of polled users with broken 360's means the 360's failure rate is 70% (I don't think Cheapy claimed such either)... It's been a while since I had statistics, but that's not the correct formula. ;) heh. Still, of a demographic that is not all hardcore gamers (and represent a good cross-section of the 360 ownership pool), you have 70% of them claiming failures (and some multiple ones) ... the 360's reliability is notoriously low... even if it were only hardcore nerds on this site, 70% of a particular segment having a failure is _very_ unusual... and even anecdotally, it points to a systemic problem with the 360. Something I think we both agree on. Making the logical leap to a failure percentage is also something we both agree cannot happen with this poll either, but it can shed a little bit of light on the problem's pervasiveness, and it can show that not all is "limited" like MS originally said...

I haven't had one break on me... but I sold my Nov 06 console back to Gamestop and bought an August 07 Elite. :) So far, it's been good... though I can't say for sure if it is going to last, and it does have the new heatsink...
 
Regardless for how skewed the results are....a good amount of 360s have failed. That's just simply selling a bad product. Why would you buy a system where you'd be really lucky if it were still in working condition past a year. I'm on my 2nd 360 (only because i had a warranty on the 1st) and I get scared every time I turn on the system.
 
I wanted to vote/reply to the original thread but accidentally forgot so I figured I would post a somewhat quick story here about my Xbox 360 Pro.

***Just for the record, I am not a Xbox fan-boy. I like my 360/Wii equally and soon I will like my PS3 just the same.***

So I've heard these horror stories for who knows how long now and quite honestly I never found myself in the same conundrum. Yes I will admit I have had a few very minor problems in my systems 2 and almost a half years. Nothing thats been hazardous to the systems health but nevertheless its been there.

Let me explain.

I bought the system right before Christmas 05 off of eBay for "about" retail (give or take $10-20). After the holiday passed I went out and bought CoD2/Perfect Dark for my new system. Needless to say I had no problems with either one of them (other then PDZ was more or less a HUGE disappoint) but I digress.

Some months went by before anything that remotely interested me came out. I think it was GRAW (or Oblivion) which I snagged and played through immediately.

It wasn't until someone gifted me with Hitman Blood money before I had any serious problems. In this regard it was losing the sound inexplicably throughout one or two levels.

Honestly that might just have been bad QA in the game I don't know.

The next problem I had was when I had people over who would play Madden 07, the game would freeze inconsistently throughout the span of the 3-6 months of playing it. I never had the problem more then once or twice but whatever.

Then the lightning came and I saw my first RRoD. My power flickered and the system shrieked in red pain as it winked. But a quick reset and the thing was good as new. No permanent damage.

After that 2006 really didn't prove to hard on the box.

2007 rolled in with a pinch of torture and a handful of salt. This is where the box has impressed me most.

Early June 07 my house underwent giant renovation. Anyone who has lived in house with a sizable amount of construction knows just how dusty the place can get. Well one thing is for sure, when your system can survive not only floors being removed, plaster dust, and to a lesser extent extreme humidity (no roof in summer) then I believe in its longevity.

Enter 2008. My house is just about done, and the box is just sitting there, normally running [from the time I get home till I lay down to sleep] 10 hours a day (I play about 2-3 of those, sadly I just leave the thing on paused in a game).


TL;DR section:

My [2 and a half year old] 360 has without missing a step survived 9 months of heavy construction, plaster dust, extreme heats, being a cat bed (sadly), being cut from the power twice mid play, long running times (10hours or so, only about 2-3 played) and the worst thing, a year and half stint with nYko's intercoooler which actually fried the cooler itself.

The system is still runs and plays the same as the day I received it. If it does break I wouldn't be in the slightest angry towards MS because It has been, next to my gamecube, the most reliable console I've owned.


***This is just my story and I don't expect everyone's system to be the same. I just wonder if or what those said people are doing so different then me if anything to their hardware pre meltdown.***

Thanks for reading.
 
[quote name='the3rdkey']A quick search on ebay produced this:

Wii Broken:

0

PS3 Broken:

7

Xbox 360 Broken:

132[/quote]

That search fails in so many ways. As someone who looked on ebay for a PS3 every few days for a good month, I can just tell you're either bad at A) reading auctions or B) search engines. There are way more broken PS3s on ebay than 7 at any given time.
 
[quote name='CappyCobra']While I do believe the RROD's are high, I think we need a version of the poll where you need a legit gamertag to vote or something. Just a random sampling of 'people' who voted show they either don't own one and/or have a gamertag.[/QUOTE]

if you do that then the poll is cutting off potential subjects for the poll.


--------------

THe purpose of the poll is to give an estimate of RRoD, there's no poll available that could be 100 percent accurate. Not even MS could be 100 percent accurate because not everyone reports to them about their 360 breaking, some people just go out and buy a new console. But obviously this poll is a fair representation of the RRod problem.. I think we should just leave it at that.
 
[quote name='Blinkman987']That search fails in so many ways. As someone who looked on ebay for a PS3 every few days for a good month, I can just tell you're either bad at A) reading auctions or B) search engines. There are way more broken PS3s on ebay than 7 at any given time.[/QUOTE]

how can a ramdom search fail, one search, no planning, just a simple search and that's what he found... its a good point to further support the primary claim.
 
[quote name='Indiana']The 3 year free exchange policy is basically a recall. What good would a recall do at this point? I could get an Elite maybe?[/QUOTE]

A recall would require MS to actually fix the defect(s) in their product. Simply extending the warranty only obligates MS to repair a broken console. These are two different things.

For instance, my newly refurbished console is as noisy and hot as before, so I imagine they just replaced the fried components with similar parts as opposed to upgrading them. In fact, it already failed to boot one time just as it did prior to RROD.

Which leads to my second point, related to the claim that all refurbished 360s have upgraded components. I highly doubt this based on anecdotal evidence and my own personal experience. I'm unfamiliar with this supposedly widespread claim, but where's the empirical evidence?

Finally, to the suggestion that the poll is skewed because gamers here play more often, I think this is misguided. It's widely accepted that the 360 is designed for hardcore gamers, so based on price point and titles, I think most 360 owners will play as much as those here.
 
lol decided to sell my 360 for a PS3.. Figured i should before it fails on me and get one in the future when they figure out the kinks, in the meantime most games will be multi-platform and I'll be getting MGS4 =D
 
[quote name='klew']A recall would require MS to actually fix the defect(s) in their product. Simply extending the warranty only obligates MS to repair a broken console. These are two different things.

For instance, my newly refurbished console is as noisy and hot as before, so I imagine they just replaced the fried components with similar parts as opposed to upgrading them. In fact, it already failed to boot one time just as it did prior to RROD.

Which leads to my second point, related to the claim that all refurbished 360s have upgraded components. I highly doubt this based on anecdotal evidence and my own personal experience. I'm unfamiliar with this supposedly widespread claim, but where's the empirical evidence?

Finally, to the suggestion that the poll is skewed because gamers here play more often, I think this is misguided. It's widely accepted that the 360 is designed for hardcore gamers, so based on price point and titles, I think most 360 owners will play as much as those here.[/QUOTE]

If by "components" you mean a different Heatsink on the GPU then yes they do.

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13691/Xbox-360-Pictures-of-the-New-GPU-Heatsink/

the difference being that wacky looking hetsink near the front of the console. which isn't there in the older models.
 
[quote name='mogshaz']If by "components" you mean a different Heatsink on the GPU then yes they do.

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13691/Xbox-360-Pictures-of-the-New-GPU-Heatsink/

the difference being that wacky looking hetsink near the front of the console. which isn't there in the older models.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link. So it's confirmed that it's standard on refurbs? (Wouldn't this result in quieter, cooler operation? Mine is no different in that department from before RROD.) And what about the upgraded processor/chip, is that also standard?

If MS in fact is fixing the defect in their console, that's good news indeed, though a recall would still be more advantageous to gamers as it would require MS to fix 360s that haven't RROD'd yet, saving gamers from the likely headache.
 
[quote name='klew']Thanks for the link. So it's confirmed that it's standard on refurbs? (Wouldn't this result in quieter, cooler operation? Mine is no different in that department from before RROD.) And what about the upgraded processor/chip, is that also standard?

If MS in fact is fixing the defect in their console, that's good news indeed, though a recall would still be more advantageous to gamers as it would require MS to fix 360s that haven't RROD'd yet, saving gamers from the likely headache.[/QUOTE]

Quieter? no. Cooler? yes. Cool enough? Probably not. Quiet doesn't equal cool. They could rewire the fans to run at 12 volts cooling the console better, but it makes actually sitting in the room with the console a miserable gaming experience because its so loud. Also It seems that while they are adding heatsinks to cool the GPU, they aren't removing the X-clamps that are warping the mainboards and causing alot of the problems (If someone can set me straight on that go ahead).

And I have never heard of them replacing the chipsets in the refurbed consoles with newer models so until I see someone crack open a refurb that wasn't a Falcon to begin with I can't say such a thing would happen.

I also disagree with the findings of the poll as a good indicator of the actual problem. 60% (was it?) is extremely high and no other estimate has come close to that much.
 
[quote name='mogshaz']Quieter? no. Cooler? yes. Cool enough? Probably not. Quiet doesn't equal cool. They could rewire the fans to run at 12 volts cooling the console better, but it makes actually sitting in the room with the console a miserable gaming experience because its so loud. Also It seems that while they are adding heatsinks to cool the GPU, they aren't removing the X-clamps that are warping the mainboards and causing alot of the problems (If someone can set me straight on that go ahead).

And I have never heard of them replacing the chipsets in the refurbed consoles with newer models so until I see someone crack open a refurb that wasn't a Falcon to begin with I can't say such a thing would happen.

I also disagree with the findings of the poll as a good indicator of the actual problem. 60% (was it?) is extremely high and no other estimate has come close to that much.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've been trying to read up on some related forums and found the noise is attributable at least in part to the DVD drive, which makes sense as I can hear it ramp up over the din.

But I wonder if mine has the new heat sinks as it feels just as hot as before, though hopefully one can't judge based on touch alone. Too bad about the x-clamps though (is that fixed in the Falcon?).

And while the poll certainly isn't scientific and its results might be exaggerated, it's still indicative of a problem that's likely much more widespread than anyone's given credit for, and potentially cause for a recall.
 
[quote name='klew']But I wonder if mine has the new heat sinks as it feels just as hot as before, though hopefully one can't judge based on touch alone.
[/quote]
It's fairly easy to tell if you shine a flashlight through the side vent (opposite the HD). You can clearly see the CPU heatsink and the additional GPU heatsink (if equipped). Anandtech has some comparison pictures you can use. They're top-down, but you get the idea.
 
[quote name='aznguyen316']lol decided to sell my 360 for a PS3.. Figured i should before it fails on me and get one in the future when they figure out the kinks, in the meantime most games will be multi-platform and I'll be getting MGS4 =D[/quote]That's what I did, too.
 
I only had one really fail. I actually fell into the second option since MS did not test their fall 2006 update. That's why I love the Windows option to accept or reject updates. Too bad it is harder on the 360. I ended up selling my "third" premium to my brother, who has zero problems and I upgraded to the Elite. No issues with the hardware yet.

The only reason I got a PS3 is for movies for "the wife." That is a great way to sell her on buying a new console (maybe another one to tip the scales in your favor)... I guess I got them in the right order since HD is going away.
 
I missed the poll, but I got a launch 360 as a XMas gift the year it came out, it was pretty flaky out of the box, I usually had to turn it on 3-4 times before it would actually boot into the game, but I didn't use it much, so it didn't bother me. About 8 months ago, it finally died completely, so I sent it in, since I had went ahead and paid for the extended warranty from MS. They sent me another one, and it's been fine until a few nights ago, my son was about an hour into Blue Dragon and got the redness. Turned it off and back on, and it was fine after that, but my experience and reading has taught me that's probably the beginning of the end, and I'll probably be doing another RMA here in the next few months.

Luckily, the 360 is not my primary console, most of the games I play are on the PC and Wii, and I have Burnout Paradise on the PS3, which I love. If threads like this have taught me anything, it's that if a multiplatform title is released, I'm going to get it on any console other than my 360 at this point, just from a point of operational security.

Also, the year I got my 360 as a gift from my cousin, he picked up 3 others for himself and other family members. Only 1 hasn't had to be replaced, and my cousin's own system has been replaced 3 times.
 
[quote name='foxhunt99']I bet a lot xbox haters simply answered the poll anyway. If the real failure rate is above 70 percent, then MS might as well quit.[/quote]

Even is you had, say, 300 people who just answered because they hate on MS, which seems like a lot IMO, take away that 300 people, and the failure rate is still pretty substantial.

I do think a CAG poll will be somewhat skewed, since people here probably put a lot more hours on their 360 than your average Joe, but I still think these numbers show a real issue for MS as far as their design specs are concerned.
 
my failure rate is 100% 2 for 2
Click to expand...

Thank God for this addition to the thread. Where would we be without it?

[quote name='Krakn3Dfx']Even is you had, say, 300 people who just answered because they hate on MS, which seems like a lot IMO, take away that 300 people, and the failure rate is still pretty substantial.[/quote]

Goddamn internet and the entitlement to an opinion.

If you take one thing away from this, understand: This poll proves nothing more than people know how to click some buttons with a mouse. You cannot make up a number like 300 because the entire poll is unreliable. Taking an unreliable number from another unreliable number proves nothing.

Does the 360 have problems? Yes. Did people probably lie on this poll? Probably. Again, the poll suggests the 360 has problems, which everybody already knew, while adding nothing of value to the argument.
 
[quote name='Blinkman987']Thank God for this addition to the thread. Where would we be without it?

Goddamn internet and the entitlement to an opinion.

If you take one thing away from this, understand: This poll proves nothing more than people know how to click some buttons with a mouse. You cannot make up a number like 300 because the entire poll is unreliable. Taking an unreliable number from another unreliable number proves nothing.

Does the 360 have problems? Yes. Did people probably lie on this poll? Probably. Again, the poll suggests the 360 has problems, which everybody already knew, while adding nothing of value to the argument.[/QUOTE]

"problems?" That's like saying malaria's just another "illness". This poll wasn't about digging deeper into the intricacies of Microsoft's failure to fix their design flaw... nor was it an attempt to get "behind" the numbers to see how many really do fail. This poll was a random sampling of web forum regulars and their experience with the failing 360. And yes, it is an established fact the GPU's at fault. Yes, the Falcon has a smaller _CPU_ not _GPU_... and yes, refurbs and new consoles made after May of last year are coming with a re-vamped heatsink. (Is it working? MS won't say.)

You tend to be a parrot when it comes to this sort of discussion. You seem to insist (often) that everyone's just a damn liar and this poll is meaningless... You also seem to want to (deeply so) sweep this "problem" under the rug so your favorite console doesn't get more bad PR.

(We already can see from your previous posts that you hate Sony... so your bias in this discussion is well known and colors each response you make, specifically trying to discredit an informal (we've covered this) survey of Cheapy's web patrons.)

The facts still remain, and this survey doesn't make those facts go away, but reinforces some of the uncertainties inherent in a systemic design flaw that Microsoft refuses to talk about. Remember, the facts for people don't bear out Microsoft's claims to the contrary w/r/t design flaw. They won't ever admit it, because they'd have to recall their consoles... And if they didn't fix the problem, they couldn't claim it was out of warranty (as they will now with a "3" year extension for the specific problem we're calling a design flaw). That's the rub with defective products... they'd lose _more_ money fixing it over the lifespan of the consoles... rather than taking a hit trying to get the original flaw out of the system by extending the warranty.

But, I'm reminded of the old adage (each time I respond to you)...
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... you may win, but you're still retarded."

So I'll stop now. ;)
 
Picked my 1st 360 up on launch day. I always kept my 360 well ventilated and even purchased a cooling unit. My 360 died within a week of the announcement of the extended warranty. So roughly a year. The 2nd 360 lasted about 6 months. The replacement for #2 never worked. It showed up broken. This put me into box #4 and I am at around 4 months on that one.

We are moderate users and never use it for movies, only games.

Although I love the games and Xlive, if my 360 dies after the warranty, I am not buying another one. The failure rate is not worth it. Perhaps by that time the PS3 will have more games or the Wii will look better.
 
I got my 360 at launch and about a week ago it finally gave out the RRoD. Now it is in route to get a new one. I have never had any problems with any other system (not even my ps2 from launch failed)... I started back with NES.
 
I had my refurbished xbox replacement start RROD a couple nights ago. Got my box in the mail, took it to a local UPS store. When I was 2 steps in the door the guy behind the counter says, Xbox huh? I said ya, red rings. He was like ya, we get 3-4 of these a day here. I was like REALLY!! Its not like im in a major city or anything either. And we have about 3 UPS stores in a 10 mile radius. I was shocked that they get that many a day.
 
But, I'm reminded of the old adage (each time I respond to you)...
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... you may win, but you're still retarded."
Click to expand...

Classic... I don't know if it's an old adage, but funny. It always seems like there is more anger with these forum debates than in person. Unless you do it professionally or hang out at bars and BS all day.

I am still grateful that MS didn't leave all us users high and dry. It's a pain. I got a month of Live back through the mail even for my troubles. Customer service is really great in this country. Try bringing something back in Rome... the norm was "piss off." (In Italian of course)...
 
Binkman up there appears to be a ringer of some sort - defending the methodology of this survey with something occasionally resembling accuracy, but doing so with not only such unfiltered condescension for anyone who would dare suggest that the 67% failure rate actually comes within the ballpark of the real 360 failure rate, but seems more interested in pointing out that this survey is nowhere near accurate than putting up non-survey based theoretical reasons for why it wouldn't be the case?

In other words, folks, Binkman has an agenda. He wants to make the conversation about the poor methodology of the survey instead of the possible revelation of a ballpark figure of the 360's reliability rate.

And let's be honest - we know MS is on the lookout for this sort of thing, and that this survey, while it has its flaws, would only make MS itself shudder with fear.

I told you before, Cheapy - go with the random sample and you'll be cool (and lauded as a hero among gamers). That still wouldn't satisfy ol' Binky here, because "a random sample of CAGs" doesn't equal a "random sample of 360 owners." Which really isn't an issue, since CAGs are playing on the same random distribution of 360 consoles as the rest of the free world, so there's no reason to expect any significant difference in failure rates between the two groups.

Moreover, before anyone starts any "gamers who game more cause the system to overheat faster" blather, let's be honest with ourselves: gamers are a savvy and diverse bunch of folks, and the 360 is a console with a *monumentally high* failure rate. Those people who point out larger users are (1) minimizing the systemic flaws endemic to every 360 console in favor of pointing out the minority of users and (2) engaging in a bit o' blame the victim, if I say so. And I do. Besides, with a console that bloody likely to go kaput at any minute now, if there was any way for consumers/gamers to know what methods and techniques can be done to stave off the RROD (playing shorter sessions, etc.), we would collectively know it by now. Towel trick doesn't count, as it's RROD already at that point. Simply enough, the fact that the RROD is entirely unpredictable adds even greater weight to the argument that it is a consistent and persistent flaw built into each and every 360 console - irrespective of how gamers play it. So ger'off that nonsense and quit pointing to those who might play longer gaming sessions and, in the process, ignore the overwhelming majority of people whose consoles have died because the system was built shittily.

But I digress: can't stop a person and their agenda, particularly when the paycheck is on the line. Binkman, we await your unnecessarily condescending response chock full of 090-level survey methodology, and finally topped with a pithy "yes, 360s have problems" caveat that is so minimized and removed of agency so as to very clearly reveal who your employer, either directly or indirectly, certainly is.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In other words, folks, Binkman has an agenda. He wants to make the conversation about the poor methodology of the survey instead of the possible revelation of a ballpark figure of the 360's reliability rate.
[/quote] You must think really high of yourselves to believe that MS would plant someone on your forums to bash your thread. Some completely worthless internet poll on a site? Wow, quite the ego you have there. Yes, I work in gaming, but it's not for Microsoft nor do we have a relationship with MS.

Anyway, how dare someone criticize a poll by identifying flaws in its method! I'm clearly a Microsoft plant because I looked at something with an objective eye and immediately saw the flaws in its design! How dare someone approach any statistic or representation of fact like that! Lets be like all the crazy neo-conservatives who don't believe in numbers or fact; they just FEEL their beliefs! Is that condescending enough for you? Sorry, I don't check my education at the door when I hit this link. The method wasn't sound, so the results are invalid, and in no way is a "random internet poll" the best way to go about collecting information.
 
third 360 going back. this time its the disc drive.

every game i put in it says:

"TO PLAY THIS DISC, INSERT IN A XBOX 360 CONSOLE"

W . T . F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
:bomb: I have had 2 Falcon chip 360s die now! First was an Elite that lasted about 6 weeks(froze completely at logo screen) and second was a pro that died today with RROD! Man I wish I did not have 14 games and 4 controllers, because I would just give up and go buy a PS3. Take this as a legitimate warning if you are still on the fence. 2 Falcon chips dead in less than 6 months! That is over $800 dollars in POS hardware! MS has and probably will never be able to fix the 360.:bomb:
 
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