CAGcast #174: Shoplifting Grapefruits and Other Tasteless Metaphors

Shipwreck should keep coming on. The third person really does make the show more interesting, and he works well with Cheapy and Wombat.

Also, in regards to the question of "Can you review Demon's Soul if you can't progress through the game because it's too hard?" Well, yes. It's perfectly fine to offer initial impressions and what you thought of the difficulty. A person's opinion is exactly what a 'review' is. The trouble is in review numbers. A number can't really convey a good impression of how a game is, especially when you haven't played a large portion of it. There's just no way to express that on a scale. Recently, I've been avoiding reviews completely, and my 'reviews' come from listening to various podcasts (RebelFM, CAGcast, Giant Bomb, etc). I feel I get a much better idea of what people think of a game like this, and it's much easier to make a decision on if I would like it or not. Audio reviews: the way of the future.
 
I really dig the show when shipwreck joins in on the fun. I''m going to start torrenting Season 1 of Sons of Anarchy as soon as I catch up on True Blood.
 
Wow hearing Shipwreck say my name was about as startling as possible. Nothing like driving in the car and listening to the podcast and realizing that you just hear your name 20 seconds late.

I knew I should have been watching Sons of Anarchy. It seems like the kinds of things that CheapyD likes, I usually like. I just said a week ago that I should try watching that show but now that it has the official CheapyD stamp of approval, I must watch.
 
Here's something I don't understand:

You guys (Cheapy and Wombat, anyways) have Wiis, yet you haven't turned them on nor played them in weeks or even months. Why do either of you still have the console if you're not going to play them? You should at least unplug them (if you haven't already) to save on energy costs.

Why not try to sell the consoles, or are you both waiting for that hella-sweet Wii game to come around. Are there any Wii titles that either of you are excited about, and which will force you to finally resume playing that console that you've been neglecting/ignoring for so long?

You should trade in your consoles or sell them to get money for games that you'll at least play!
 
[quote name='SithRico']I don't know if I can trust Wombat about the William's Pinball HOF.
I trusted on buying I MAED A GAM3 W1TH Z0MB1ES!!!1NIT!!!1
It was fun until the song was over. Then I wasn't having fun anymore.
Felt like it was never going to end. I really love pinball games. But, with the buy 2 get one I might just get it.[/QUOTE]

Well, IMAGWZII is only 80 MS points, or $1. For a $1 it's not bad. It does its job.

Oh, Wombat, you were really awesome on the CAGcast this week for some reason. One of your best in awhile. It seemed like you had much more energy.
 
I enjoyed the show again but was sad that there was no poop talk in this episode.

I don't know why you guys keep saying the William's Pinball Collection costs $30. It costs $40 everywhere besides Amazon.
 
Good show, nice to hear shipwreck becoming a regular. His ability to play an obscene amount of games versus those of us with kids gives good insight into what may or may not be worth our money.

Wombat I agree that the ball popper is annoying, but the kids love it so much how can you deny them such a simple pleasure. Our kids liked theirs so much that both grandmas bought one for their house. What is the most difficult thing to get out that your daughter has stuck in hers. My son stuck a car in there and it wedged into the curve perfectly and took some heavy force to get out.
 
I really like having Shipwreck around on the show. The more you can have him pop in, the better. He kinda evens out the types of gamers that Wombat and Cheapy are. It's a true gaming Trifecta with you three joining forces.
 
Shipwreck, as soon you read this post, play Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2's Ultimate Ninja Mission #1. I suggest you get a stopwatch, because I request a time.
 
Cheapy's "Chicken George" accent was suspiciously good. I don't really know what to think about that. I'm definitely picking up Pinball Hall of Fame for the PS3 though. Shipwreck was, as always, solid.
 
CheapyD you were wondernig how CAG will enjoy Demon's Souls when they get their hands on it, People seem to be enjoyinig it quite a bit: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=199633

You bring up the question about "what's the point of a game if it's not fun". It makes me think about movies and entertainment as a whole. Why do people watch scary movies? Sometimes the "fun" is experiencing the tense and frightening moments and then coming out the other side.

I think people have made a big deal about the game's difficulty. The reason why Demon's Souls is getting so much attention and affection is because these days games have become more or less a walking tour of environments and scenarios. There's no challenge. Checkpoints are either on demand or extremely frequent. Death has no repercussions. You just go from A to B, checking out the levels and action set pieces. Demon's Soul's enjoyment comes from learning the mechanics and mastering the game. That's where the fun is. The gameplay is humbling at first but there's no greater satisfaction then taking out a boss, getting your body back, then later revisiting the level and wiping the floor with the competition who previously made you whimper in a corner. Also, it's not about grinding with Demon's Souls (for the most part). Your knowledge of the combat system and level design is what makes revisiting levels so fearless. Now I'm not saying every game should be like this but it's a breath of fresh air to have a game like DS come along after so many games that just trod along with no real satisfying challenges that aren't in the crazy tedious nature like some achievements.
 
Show was great. I love that Shipwreck is on now. It's nice to have a 3 man show. Thankyou guys for your input of Marvel Ultimate Alliance. I've been meaning to play the first one, and now I have to go find a copy and try it out.

edit: And I love the Magna Carta Box art. I just hope we see those kind of melons in game.
 
Great show guys, just a quick comment on Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2.

MUA2 was not developed by Raven, but Vicarious Visions. Vicarious did the Wii port of the first Ultimate Alliance game, and then were tasked do MUA2. I don't know what happened in the hand off between developers, but MUA2 doesn't seem to be as engaging and fun as the original MUA.

Once again, great show, and I'm looking forward to the next CAGcast.
 
Great show. The conversation about whether a game can get a bad score for being too difficult got me thinking. Personally, I do not believe that a game that I find difficult should be held against the game. I suppose I see difficult games as a matter of different taste. Some games are more demanding than others, and for the people who are willing to invest their time in it, they enjoy it. Naturally, I expect a game like Demon's Souls is not something I can speed through.


May not be a perfect analogy, but there's a saying when it comes to books: If you didn't understand a book and you think it's your fault, the author must be a good writer, but if you think it's the author's fault, the author must be a bad writer. So I suppose it really depends on the person whether or not a game's difficulty is a bad thing.
 
[quote name='Big Ev']Great show guys, just a quick comment on Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2.

MUA2 was not developed by Raven, but Vicarious Visions. Vicarious did the Wii port of the first Ultimate Alliance game, and then were tasked do MUA2. I don't know what happened in the hand off between developers, but MUA2 doesn't seem to be as engaging and fun as the original MUA.

Once again, great show, and I'm looking forward to the next CAGcast.[/QUOTE]

Yes, we mentioned the developer switch, my half assed assumption is that VV has zero reverence for Marvel and it's history. But that's just a thoery.
 
[quote name='Wombat']Yes, we mentioned the developer switch, my half assed assumption is that VV has zero reverence for Marvel and it's history. But that's just a thoery.[/QUOTE]
Sorry I missed the mention of the developer switch, my bad. I should learn to pay better attention, or maybe I should listen to the podcast somewhere else than work :)
 
Awesome show fellas, It's been about 5 months since I got a chance to listen. I like many was victim to the economic situation and once my 9-5 went to hell my regular podcast listening went along with it. But hard work paid off, I'm working steady again and hearing a CAGcast gave me a nice feeling of being back to normal. I forgot how much the conversation turns to shit (shit being the topic not the adjective).

I'm kind of intrigued by this Demon Soul's game now though. Ive been seeing the name but hadn't seen much marketing. (If L4D2 has a $25 Million budget Demon Soul's must be like 50 cents). When I went to the game site and watched the trailer it actually seems like they are playing up the difficulty of the game. Almost challenging you to see if you can handle it. I guess the real question is "Is the difficulty caused by cheap tricks, bad gameplay, and glitches or is it intentionally challenging to force more strategy and thought?" Then again, they could have just gotten back all the reviews and test data and realized that if they didn't try to make the difficulty a sell point it would (and may still) be its biggest downfall. All the talk has me curious though...
 
I know we don't have to compliment Shipwreck anymore, but he is really growing on me as a third CAGcast member. He seems to have gotten the feel of the show and is much more natural and entertaining than in the past. Hopefully he will be a semi-permanent member of the crew.
 
You guys are talking on how shitty the PS3 Eye is? At least that thing can scan the cards. I got Viva Pinata Trouble in Paradise and tried for an hour to scan one of those cards with the 360 vision camera for an hour to get a fucking 5 point achievement and still did not get it. Tried with the flashlight and everything....fuck the vision camera, piece of shit that is....
 
[quote name='Davestation']You guys are talking on how shitty the PS3 Eye is? At least that thing can scan the cards. I got Viva Pinata Trouble in Paradise and tried for an hour to scan one of those cards with the 360 vision camera for an hour to get a fucking 5 point achievement and still did not get it. Tried with the flashlight and everything....fuck the vision camera, piece of shit that is....[/QUOTE]

I think it is fair to say, that both cameras suck equally.
 
Just wanted to say I laughed when Wombat referred to the possibility that Capcom might be the worst publisher. Are we forgetting the company that is charging $120 for a plastic skateboard game and wants to INCREASE the normal game price?
 
Great show! I really like the new Star Wars Clone Wars cartoon and movie. I was really hoping the game would be good but wow the demo was terrible.
 
Cheapy, did you end up picking up The Williams Collection?

Ship and Wombat (and anybody else), do you have a preferred camera view when you play?

/tk
 
Greetings Cheap Ass Gamer!

This is Chris Carter, Editor-In-Chief of Gamer Limit, and reviewer of Demon's Souls. I want to assure you that I did complete the game before I reviewed it, because it apparently came up in the podcast.

Atlus sent me an advanced copy quite a few weeks ago, and despite all the rabble that people have been making over the game's difficulty, it's actually not that hard once you get the hang of it. In fact, I was only level 76 when I finished the game, compared to a whopping maximum of 712 levels (which require New Game++).

For instance, that playthrough only took me 22 hours in total, and I didn't die once on the last 8 boss fights. The Sticky Compound Long Bow/White Bow do wonders to the AI ;D

I'm on my third playthrough now with the retail version of the game (which I bought on launch day, and is different from my now online defunct press copy), starting as a Royal. Using my knowledge from previous sessions, I was able to beat the entire first level with one death, and trek through a good portion of level 4 immediately after Phalanx with very little statistical upgrades.
 
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Another great show, perhaps making Shipwreck a full member of the CAGcast would be good. He brings a lot to the table.
 
Pinball is the one Wii game that I played that I thought would be better in hi-def. .....although I would miss the flipper-button in each hand and waggle to tilt controls.
 
I loved the bit about photographing hippos having sex in Afrika.

Or when Wombat cracks a lame joke and Cheapy just shoots it down. The banter is always entertaining and makes the show worth a listen even when there isn't any really relevant video game info to be conveyed.

Also, I don't know if its just me, but all this talk about Demon Souls kind of piqued my interest in the game. Wasn't even on my radar before...
 
man, by the time i get around to writing responses to the cagcast, i have trouble remembering what i wanted to say. this time, i had a post-it pad with me, so i jotted something down.

you guys were talking about the playing the waiting game for capcom games in order to benefit as a consumer, but there's a problem there. if not for early adopters, there would be no alternative editions, updates, etc... nobody bought bionic commando, so we're not hearing anything about an updated version of that. plenty of people bought re5, and even pissed money away on the most unnecessary add-on around. now, it's getting an updated release. it's certainly not the first time they've done this with RE, but it's always possible because people buy the game. capcom achieve profits, then they look for ways to further profit, and the fact that they further profit by improving on the product is quite alright with me.

as for the SF4 issue, i have some pretty surprising feelings about this. i have been pushing for years for fighting game updates to be the downloadable patches that they really are. i have chastised japanese gaming companies for ignoring the system put into place by pc games so many years ago and i have accused them of being dirty backward money-grubbing bastards who refuse to embrace the most important technology of our time.

despite all this, i find super street fighter 4 to be entirely defensible as a standalone release. if there were simply balance updates and tweaks, i would be singing a different song. there are 8 new characters. 8! that's massive. that changes everything about the way the game is played. when we bought sf4, we were already lucky enough to be getting the second version with 6 additional characters over the arcade version. now, we're getting 8 new fighters. even if we were to be offered the balance updates for our standard sf4 copies, things would probably be thrown askew because some of the buffs and nerfs will most assuredly be in place in response to the new 8. they need to patch sf4 as a separate entity to maintain balance in that version.

character rosters have never been about quantity. it's always been about quality. the original world warriors title had 8 characters and that was fantastic. if they were to release a new fighting game starring only these new 8, it would be defensible as its own title. i feel that most people are failing to recognize just how much of a new product this update to sf4 really could be. this is not like going from sf2: champion edition to turbo hyper fighting. i am happy that we will be getting super at a reduced price, and i hope it brings more people into the game despite all the at-first-seemingly justified complaints. also, remember that if we hadn't bought sf4 at 60 bucks, we wouldn't even be hearing about a super street fighter 4 for 40 or 50.

(i'm not going to go into it really, but a disc-based release is also more convenient for a game that has console tournaments year-round.)

entirely unrelated: check out the full image of the girl from magna carta 2. the artist has no concept of the human body. look at that right leg.
http://zockerseele.com/wp-content/images/artwork_magna_cartaII.jpg
 
[quote name='thakingrocka']
you guys were talking about the playing the waiting game for capcom games in order to benefit as a consumer, but there's a problem there. if not for early adopters, there would be no alternative editions, updates, etc... nobody bought bionic commando, so we're not hearing anything about an updated version of that. plenty of people bought re5, and even pissed money away on the most unnecessary add-on around. now, it's getting an updated release. it's certainly not the first time they've done this with RE, but it's always possible because people buy the game. capcom achieve profits, then they look for ways to further profit, and the fact that they further profit by improving on the product is quite alright with me.
http://zockerseele.com/wp-content/images/artwork_magna_cartaII.jpg[/QUOTE]

The reason this absolutely sucks is because sometimes there is exclusive content for the rerelease. Not making that available to download for the people that bought it up early and made the new release possible is inexcusable.
 
I guess it's time for me to leave feedback. Good show in general.

I do have to disagree with difficulty effecting review scores though. Let's put it this way, according to Rockstar, less than 5% of the people who bought GTAIV actually beat it. Some missions get incredibly hard. Should GTAIV take the review hit just because the missions are too difficult? Now if the game was legitimately broken thus the difficulty (like many early PSX and Sega CD Working Designs translations), I could see taking the hit on the review scores. Instead what I heard is Demon Souls is a very hardcore Roguelike (see Shiren the Wanderer) and the high difficulty tied to making a mistake versus game being broken. Thus I can understand it NOT getting knocked for it's difficulty despite being hard. It may be hard, but it's fair.
 
[quote name='Wombat']Yes, we mentioned the developer switch, my half assed assumption is that VV has zero reverence for Marvel and it's history. But that's just a thoery.[/QUOTE]Actually Vicarious Visions has been one of the developers for the series since it was X-Man Legends, just not the lead developer. I'm just guessing, but I think they did a lot of the grunt work. In a lot of ways it reminds me of a master leaving a project to an apprentice and he does an OK but not great job. Or for comic geeks, like when Stan Lee left Marvel Comics in the hands of Roy Thomas.
 
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[quote name='as50193']Just wanted to say I laughed when Wombat referred to the possibility that Capcom might be the worst publisher. Are we forgetting the company that is charging $120 for a plastic skateboard game and wants to INCREASE the normal game price?[/QUOTE]The Evil League of Evil Publishers?
1. EA
2. Activision
3. Capcom
 
Great show guys. I like having Ship on the show. He knows his shit and just doesn't talk about the big name titles. Thanks for the heads up about that pinball game. I'm going to check it out.

I think the Demon Souls scores are going to be skewed because the only people reviewing that game are the hardcore RPG guys who actually have the patience to finish it. Of course it's going to be getting 90s and 100s. They're the only people on the planet who are going love the game. Me personally, the game sounds like the equivalent of repeatedly stapling my dick to a table so I'm going to pass for now. I'll maybe check it out down the road when it gets cheaper or I'll give it a rent. I'm not sure why people would play a game that makes them want to murder people. When you get that feeling and it's only the first level and you probably got many more hours to go, is it even worth it? I guess it's great marketing though, because without that difficulty level I doubt as many people would be talking about the game.

I think you actually need to finish a game to review it. You can't just play a third or half of the game and write up a review. The second part of the game might suck, the gameplay might become boring, a level might be completely broken, the ending might be terrible, etc. For example, Dead Space. Everyone loves that game. If I would have only played the first few chapters, I would have rated it very highly too. When I actually played through the entire game, the targeting a certain body part gimmick got old fast and you find yourself in the same situations over and over again. The story completely sucked and the ending was awful. That's just my personal opinion, but I think you can understand what I'm getting at. I don't think you can just do a review playing half of the game because you're not giving the reader an impression of the full experience.
 
[quote name='Blackout']
I think the Demon Souls scores are going to be skewed because the only people reviewing that game are the hardcore RPG guys who actually have the patience to finish it. Of course it's going to be getting 90s and 100s. They're the only people on the planet who are going love the game. Me personally, the game sounds like the equivalent of repeatedly stapling my dick to a table so I'm going to pass for now. I'll maybe check it out down the road when it gets cheaper or I'll give it a rent. I'm not sure why people would play a game that makes them want to murder people. When you get that feeling and it's only the first level and you probably got many more hours to go, is it even worth it? I guess it's great marketing though, because without that difficulty level I doubt as many people would be talking about the game. [/QUOTE]

I think you need to read a few of the reviews again, because the main reason Demon's Souls is scoring so high is because of the fact that it presents you with a challenge in a fair manner. When you fail, you actually feel like it's your own fault, and not the game's design.

Also, even if the game wasn't particularly hard right off the bat (after a few hours, it's not that hard), it would still receive high scores, and a good word of mouth, simply because it's a great game, and a refreshing change of pace amidst a sea of mindless button mashers.

In fact, I'm actually more surprised by the people who say it's "impossible", because after you give the game a chance, it's quite easy. Most of the people who've given up treat the game like a hack n' slash, and ignore dodge rolls; heck, I even met a few people who didn't dodge roll in God of War, and just mashed square and triangle.
 
[quote name='banodyne']The Evil League of Evil Publishers?
1. EA
2. Activision
3. Capcom[/QUOTE]
I think with the recent deuchyness of Activision CEO that they take the number 1 spot. It seems that the largest third party publisher is always the worst. EA was the worst last generation, but this generation I am happier as a consumer with them. Capcom and Activison have jumped way up and I am at the point with Activision that I will only buy used from them. Nintendo is also up there with them not having any "Players Choice" for the Wii or DS and shitty plastic add ons. Microsoft is also the one to thank for all the micro-transactions that Capcom uses and giving publishers a platform to do so. So my top three as a consumer are:

1. Activision
2. Microsoft
3. Nintendo

[quote name='Chris Carter'] When you fail, you actually feel like it's your own fault, and not the marriage's design.

Also, even if the marriage wasn't particularly hard right off the bat (after a few hours, it's not that hard)

In fact, I'm actually more surprised by the people who say it's "impossible", because after you give the marriage a chance, it's quite easy. Most of the people who've given up treat the marriage like a hack n' slash (Scott Peterson), and ignore dodge rolls (from domestic fights when a bowl gets thrown at your head); heck, I even met a few people who didn't dodge roll in marriage disputes, and just mashed their spouse in.[/QUOTE]

Wow, if you replace the word "game" with "marriage" disgruntled spouses around the globe can relate to that. I am getting this game soon and can not wait to see what everyone is complaining about.
 
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[quote name='Chris Carter']I think you need to read a few of the reviews again, because the main reason Demon's Souls is scoring so high is because of the fact that it presents you with a challenge in a fair manner. When you fail, you actually feel like it's your own fault, and not the game's design.

Also, even if the game wasn't particularly hard right off the bat (after a few hours, it's not that hard), it would still receive high scores, and a good word of mouth, simply because it's a great game, and a refreshing change of pace amidst a sea of mindless button mashers.

In fact, I'm actually more surprised by the people who say it's "impossible", because after you give the game a chance, it's quite easy. Most of the people who've given up treat the game like a hack n' slash, and ignore dodge rolls; heck, I even met a few people who didn't dodge roll in God of War, and just mashed square and triangle.[/QUOTE]

Well the way Ship described it, falling off a cliff and having to start the whole level over again really doesn't sound cool in my book. Shit like that would drive me crazy. Like I said, I'll check the game out down the road because my PS3 really hasn't seen too much RPG action this gen.
 
[quote name='banodyne']Actually Vicarious Visions has been one of the developers for the series since it was X-Man Legends, just not the lead developer. I'm just guessing, but I think they did a lot of the grunt work. In a lot of ways it reminds me of a master leaving a project to an apprentice and he does an OK but not great job. Or for comic geeks, like when Stan Lee left Marvel Comics in the hands of Roy Thomas.[/QUOTE]

They handled the game's ports. It's not master/ apprentice, more like teacher/substitute. They just make sure the kids don't kill each other, but they don't know the lesson plan. The bare minimum to make it through the day.
 
[quote name='Blackout']Well the way Ship described it, falling off a cliff and having to start the whole level over again really doesn't sound cool in my book. Shit like that would drive me crazy. Like I said, I'll check the game out down the road because my PS3 really hasn't seen too much RPG action this gen.[/QUOTE]

VERY true! But that's just the first hour.

Most levels don't have pitfalls that you can fall into without going out of your way to do so. Complaining about pitfalls in Demon's Souls is similar to complaining about pitfalls in a Mario game (Mario's pitfalls are actually harder).

But yea, as you keep saying; once you try it you'll see what I mean. The game's numerous checkpoints/shortcuts also ensure that you're not starting an entire level over again, just a very small portion of it (10 minutes or so). Think of it like dying in a Super Mario checkpoint, and having to fight the enemies over again in that section of the level.
 
Another great Cagcast guys.I never watched Sons of Anarchy but I will ,If you want to laugh you have to watch "Its always sunny in Philidelphia.
 
[quote name='firehawk12']I hope Shipwreck becomes a regular - it's good having him on.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. No such thing as too much Shipwreck. Good podcast this week.
 
Another solid three-man show. Is Ship now officially the third regular?

Gotta agree with Wombat & Shipwreck, Pinball: Hall of Fame is an incredible game and you NEED to pick it up, Cheapy. I wish I didn't have the Wii version so I could pick it up for the 360 and have more tables and (slightly?)better graphics.

I'm pissed at Capcom as well, but not for double-dipping. I'm pissed at them for charging $20 extra for costumes that are already on the Street Fighter IV game disc. Don't spin it as something separate, Capcom. I can see right through your nickle-and-diming bullshit.

I'm also disappointed with the lack of a solid single player mode in Street Fighter IV. I know fighters don't usually offer much for solo players, but after Virtua Fighter 5's Quest mode and the Mission modes from Soul Calibur, there should be something to keep those who don't have local opponents and Live. Fighting games are like racing games, better played with others, but still enjoyable to solo players.
 
I can't believe Wombat outrage at Capcom double-dipping for Street Fighter, while he let Halo: ODST slide in previous podcast(which is also guilty of same crime). Are really that surprised with Capcom's double dipping? Just look at their history with Street Fighter 2(Super Street fighter, Championship Edition, Hyper, Turbo, ) Street Fighter 3(2nd and 3rd impact) and those multi-color Megaman Battle Networks.
 
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