GCN/Revolution E3 Game Announcement Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
From:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/617/617195p1.html

The machine features no digital audio out. Instead, it boasts a single proprietary output for video and audio.
Click to expand...

No digital audio - strike one... Until I got my PS2 and hooked it to my surround sound system I didn't realize what I was missing with the GC (my receiver doesn't do the DPL II stuff). Make it just like a DVD player Nintendo - and no, I don't have any interest in using it to play DVD's, but it would be nice to have audio like it was from a DVD. Oh and strike 2 on the whole "proprietary" cable stuff - now we have to order something they may decide one day to drop support for?

The output looks exactly like the component out on GameCube. We asked Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto if Revolution would play high-definition games and he told us that he wasn't sure if he was allowed to say yet. Still, we expect a bare minimum of 480p support and likely 720p or 1080i, too, given that previous comments from Nintendo execs suggested that the platform would be able to hook up to a computer monitor.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... So no answer, really, to the questions early in this thread. I wonder, though, why they wouldn't say that it would support HD if they were planning to (they wouldn't have to give details, just say "yes")? Seems like this is the answer to give now if you AREN'T planning to support it. The speculation that follows is encouraging but certainly not definitive.
 
no digital audio, no HD..i'm out..Nintendo can f themselves on that lonely island they're on.
 
[quote name='io']From:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/617/617195p1.html



No digital audio - strike one... Until I got my PS2 and hooked it to my surround sound system I didn't realize what I was missing with the GC (my receiver doesn't do the DPL II stuff). Make it just like a DVD player Nintendo - and no, I don't have any interest in using it to play DVD's, but it would be nice to have audio like it was from a DVD. Oh and strike 2 on the whole "proprietary" cable stuff - now we have to order something they may decide one day to drop support for?[/QUOTE]

The utility of a proprietary plug that handles HD and optical cable (see also: xbox) is determined by the software, not the hardware. The more games that are made supporting HD and digital audio, the more likely those cables would be sold in a normal distribution channel.

And don't blame Nintendo for DPLII because your system doesn't support it. A lot of PS2 games were running DPLII -- more so than any 5.1 signal coming from that system.

No wonder people mock Nintendo fans. It's like they sit around coordinating when and where they release their collective "WAAAAAAAAAH", and always decide to start whining way too early. Once they release the official specs, then you start whining. Until then, you're getting yourself worked up over absolutely nothing. Go outside, enjoy the spring weather.
 
[quote name='gsr']no digital audio, no HD..i'm out..Nintendo can f themselves on that lonely island they're on.[/QUOTE]

You were never in based on every post you have made about the Revo. Stop trolling.
 
[quote name='io']From:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/617/617195p1.html



No digital audio - strike one... Until I got my PS2 and hooked it to my surround sound system I didn't realize what I was missing with the GC (my receiver doesn't do the DPL II stuff). Make it just like a DVD player Nintendo - and no, I don't have any interest in using it to play DVD's, but it would be nice to have audio like it was from a DVD. Oh and strike 2 on the whole "proprietary" cable stuff - now we have to order something they may decide one day to drop support for?



Hmmm... So no answer, really, to the questions early in this thread. I wonder, though, why they wouldn't say that it would support HD if they were planning to (they wouldn't have to give details, just say "yes")? Seems like this is the answer to give now if you AREN'T planning to support it. The speculation that follows is encouraging but certainly not definitive.[/QUOTE]

You don't make sense. You're making definitive claims on something that hasn't been finalized and hasn't had any information released on it. Iwata and the rest even said that that wasn't the final box. It will be different. IGN also said there wasn't the monitor out on the back, but that is one of the few things we do know it will have - support for computer monitors. And you comlain about proprietary outs? Do you realize that that is what they have used since the SNES? That little grey rectangular plug with RCAs on the end is proprietary. You haven't had to buy one up until now. And even if you do have to buy one for HD, you are mixing things up. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. They said there is the one port. You have your cable for that. Are you suggesting they will take that one plug away?!? What the **** do you suggest that you plug the console in with then???

Like lebowsky said, you never were onboard. Grow up. Stop trolling.
 
[quote name='io']Oh and strike 2 on the whole "proprietary" cable stuff - now we have to order something they may decide one day to drop support for?[/QUOTE]

Name one current system that does not have a proprietary cable for their video out. You can't because there are none. The PS2, GC, and Xbox all use proprietary cables right now.

The PS3 will have HDMI out, but how many of us have HDMI sets? I sure don't. So I will have to use the other video out option on the PS3, which is proprietary. I'll bet the Xbox 360's video out is not industry standard either.

This has been the case for as long as I can remember. I think only a very early version of the PlayStation had actual industry standard composite ouputs.
 
[quote name='MorPhiend']You don't make sense. You're making definitive claims on something that hasn't been finalized and hasn't had any information released on it. Iwata and the rest even said that that wasn't the final box. It will be different. IGN also said there wasn't the monitor out on the back, but that is one of the few things we do know it will have - support for computer monitors. And you comlain about proprietary outs? Do you realize that that is what they have used since the SNES? That little grey rectangular plug with RCAs on the end is proprietary. You haven't had to buy one up until now. And even if you do have to buy one for HD, you are mixing things up. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. They said there is the one port. You have your cable for that. Are you suggesting they will take that one plug away?!? What the **** do you suggest that you plug the console in with then???

Like lebowsky said, you never were onboard. Grow up. Stop trolling.[/QUOTE]

Wow, my first flaming! Look, guys, setlle down. I love Nintendo and have been a big GC fanboy. I felt BAD buying a PS2 and putting it up there next to the GC. I think the GC has better graphics, and overall, better games, than the PS2, which is why I'd be upset if they don't support HD and Sony passes them. I simply wanted to bring the topic back up again since we had talked about it before the unveiling and Nintendo definitely did not enlighten us on that aspect. I think the rest of the system info that we have is wonderful - I'm just being a worried fanboy about that last bit that *could* make it a GREAT system.

About the cable thing - OK, I could have been more clear. Yes, they are all proprietary (though I don't know jack about the Xbox), but you can't buy the Gamecube component cables anywhere but off the Nintendo site - as I said WAY back in this thread I think that was a GOOD move by Nintendo for the GC, as HD enthusiasts would gladly shell out the extra money directly to Nintendo to get the best possible picture (no one flamed me for that). However, I think it is a mistake in the next gen - this was a follow-up to my previous thoughts when we saw the proprietary cable (of course, 3rd party support might be around this time so we don't have to go through Nintendo - not that it is THAT big of a deal, just annoying). I bought my 3rd party PS2 cables at a regular store, and the digital audio IS a standard cable. That's what I meant anyway... Sorry, mixed that all up a bit.

And about the audio - maybe I am blaming them for having a fairly non-standard type of surround sound that my system doesn't support - that is why I specifically mentioned DVD-like sound being a plus (digital, 5.1, etc). I got my receiver a LONG time ago for DVD's. I'm not too into the audio equipment, but I do know that the PS2 plugged right into the second optical input that I had and it works wonderfully - and that made an impression. My DVD's and my PS2 *still* work great on it and I don't see all DVD's and the like switching to DPL II. I wasn't about to buy another receiver just for games as I would have for the GC. I'm sure all newer receivers support DPL II (don't know, don't care as mine works fine enough). HOWEVER, I will be a man and take credit for a little whine on that point. The audio is not as important (to me) as the picture anyway, so no big deal.

But geez, just chill guys. I'm sure it will all work out - it just seems odd that if HD support is planned and already in the design they woulld just say so - what's the big deal? They don't have to say what resolution or anything (as I understand them being hush-hush about specs). I'm simply saying that it makes me nervous that MAYBE, just MAYBE, it won't be supported. THAT IS ALL. Nothing DEFINITIVE - it is all speculation.

AGAIN, I love Nintendo games - my kids love Nintendo games. Also, until the GC, I have not had a console since the Colecovision (and briefly, a NES) so bringing SNES or N64 into it in means nothing to me (they all had this, or they all had that).

Finally, MorPhiend, lebowsky was talking about someone else in his quote - I'm hardly "trolling". Like I said, I love Nintendo. I hardly think anything I said required telling me to "grow up". Very wierd. A little anger management (and really, why get angry over this at all?) might have saved the incoherence at the end there - I don't know what you are talking about with all the cable business. I haven't had to buy one up till now? What? I sure bought SOMETHING extra through Nintendo's web site. Are you saying I can use the component cable I already have for my GC in the Revo? Maybe, but like you said, nothing is definite - they might very well change it. And I might still want my GC hooked up to another HDTV at some point.
 
[quote name='io']Wow, my first flaming! Look, guys, setlle down. I love Nintendo and have been a big GC fanboy. I felt BAD buying a PS2 and putting it up there next to the GC. I think the GC has better graphics, and overall, better games, than the PS2, which is why I'd be upset if they don't support HD and Sony passes them.

About the cable thing - OK, I could have been more clear. Yes, they are all proprietary (though I don't know jack about the Xbox), but you can't buy the Gamecube component cables anywhere but off the Nintendo site - as I said WAY back in this thread I think that was a GOOD move by Nintendo for the GC, as HD enthusiasts would gladly shell out the extra money directly to Nintendo to get the best possible picture (no one flamed me for that). However, I think it is a mistake in the next gen - this was a follow-up to my previous thoughts when we saw the proprietary cable (of course, 3rd party support might be around this time so we don't have to go through Nintendo - not that it is THAT big of a deal, just annoying). I bought my 3rd party PS2 cables at a regular store, and the digital audio IS a standard cable. That's what I meant anyway... Sorry, mixed that all up a bit.

And about the audio - maybe I am blaming them for having a fairly non-standard type of surround sound that my system doesn't support - that is why I specifically mentioned DVD-like sound being a plus (digital, 5.1, etc). I got my receiver a LONG time ago for DVD's. I'm not too into the audio equipment, but I do know that the PS2 plugged right into the second optical input that I had and it works wonderfully - and that made an impression. My DVD's and my PS2 *still* work great on it and I don't see all DVD's and the like switching to DPL II. I wasn't about to buy another receiver just for games as I would have for the GC. I'm sure all newer receivers support DPL II (don't know, don't care as mine works fine enough). HOWEVER, I will be a man and take credit for a little whine on that point. The audio is not as important (to me) as the picture anyway, so no big deal.

But geez, just chill guys. I'm sure it will all work out - it just seems odd that if HD support is planned and already in the design they woulld just say so - what's the big deal? They don't have to say what resolution or anything (as I understand them being hush-hush about specs). I'm simply saying that it makes me nervous that MAYBE, just MAYBE, it won't be supported. THAT IS ALL. Nothing DEFINITIVE - it is all speculation.

AGAIN, I love Nintendo games - my kids love Nintendo games. Also, until the GC, I have not had a console since the Colecovision (and briefly, a NES) so bringing SNES or N64 into it in means nothing to me (they all had this, or they all had that).

Finally, MorPhiend, lebowsky was talking about someone else in his quote - I'm hardly "trolling". Like I said, I love Nintendo. I hardly think anything I said required telling me to "grow up". Very wierd. A little anger management (and really, why get angry over this at alll?) might have saved the incoherence at the end there - I don't know what you are talking about with all the cable business. I haven't had to buy one up till now? What? I sure bought SOMETHING extra through Nintendo's web site. Are you saying I can use the component cable I already have for my GC in the Revo? Maybe, but like you said, nothing is definite - they might very well change it. And I might still want my GC hooked up to another HDTV at some point.[/QUOTE]

Heh. What do you know? I must have seen WildWop's quote and skipped down to lebowsky's answer. For that I do apologize for. I've had some long days at work this week and as a result, have not been quite as on my toes as usual. Sorry.

But as for the rest, I still read it the same as I did before, but hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there and agree that there was simple miscommunication. But I really don't see Nintendo not going for high quality (HD support). I mean they have confirmed monitor support out of the box, Wi-Fi online out of the box - why would they skimp on an aspect that is clearly where the market is going to be and on something that they themselves have already incorporated in the past?

But we don't know. And I don't think that that is reason to worry. They have no urgency to tell about the different pieces of the machine. We will likely hear about the CPU, VPU, (PPU?), RAM, memory bandwidth, cache, output, input, (cooling system?), etc. all at the same time. It is good for them to let us know that we will playing games online for free from day one. It is good to let us know that we will have a whole back catalog of nostalgic masterpieces available for download. But what good is it going to do to tell us what is inside? The system will be more powerful than GCN. Until we see it in action, that is all that makes sense. As we have seen with Sony every generation, numbers mean nothing (their console has a year yet before release and we already pretty much know that what they have shown is again overinflated hype). So, yeah - we don't know. But I would chalk that up to Nintendo being confident that everyone would take certain features for granted - they don't feel a need to announce it. Certain things are just expected and I see no reason to worry about it.
 
[quote name='MorPhiend']Heh. What do you know? I must have seen WildWop's quote and skipped down to lebowsky's answer. For that I do apologize for. I've had some long days at work this week and as a result, have not been quite as on my toes as usual. Sorry.[/quote]

Well, I understood it was a mistake - it was just your additional commentary in response to it that upset me. No problem now, though :D

[quote name='MorPhiend']
But as for the rest, I still read it the same as I did before, but hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there and agree that there was simple miscommunication. But I really don't see Nintendo not going for high quality (HD support). I mean they have confirmed monitor support out of the box, Wi-Fi online out of the box - why would they skimp on an aspect that is clearly where the market is going to be and on something that they themselves have already incorporated in the past?

But we don't know. And I don't think that that is reason to worry. They have no urgency to tell about the different pieces of the machine. We will likely hear about the CPU, VPU, (PPU?), RAM, memory bandwidth, cache, output, input, (cooling system?), etc. all at the same time. It is good for them to let us know that we will playing games online for free from day one. It is good to let us know that we will have a whole back catalog of nostalgic masterpieces available for download. But what good is it going to do to tell us what is inside? The system will be more powerful than GCN. Until we see it in action, that is all that makes sense. As we have seen with Sony every generation, numbers mean nothing (their console has a year yet before release and we already pretty much know that what they have shown is again overinflated hype). So, yeah - we don't know. But I would chalk that up to Nintendo being confident that everyone would take certain features for granted - they don't feel a need to announce it. Certain things are just expected and I see no reason to worry about it.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough - I agree (to most of it)... If they have HD support, then obviously I'm happy. I don't think we can *assume* it will at this point though - for just the reasons you give. Why tout the Wi-Fi, the monitor support, and all the rest but evade the HD issue? I'm certainly thinking they WILL support it, just not 100% sure. It seems you think it is important as well, so there we agree. If they DON'T support it then you will be disappointed, too, I assume? So in 2 months, or 6 months, or maybe a year from now we can rejoice or be upset together - until then we can let it go.

In response to WildWop (I kind of conflated yours and his responses in mine), since he was the one with the "Waaah" response to what I said (hardly warranted I think), I WILL retract what I said in my previous response about DPLII. Sorry, that don't cut it if Nintendo wants this system to be an entertainment hub, all-in-one system (e.g., wifi, computer monitor support, DVD playback, etc). They should have digital audio (I'm no audiophile, but I know that DPLII, while digital in parts, is mixed together into the standard stereo cables and then recreated by the receiver and thus loses some quality vs all-digital and doesn't have quite the same appeal as 5.1). I remember reading early reviews/comparisons of the GC to PS2/Xbox and this deficiency was routinely put down. It didn't matter too much in 2001/2002, but I think it is more important going forward. Not critical, mind you, but I AM disappointed they don't have an optical audio output. I have a right to not be completely head-over-heels in love with every aspect of every product from Nintendo, after all :D. It certainly isn't a deal-breaker (thus "strike one"). If they dropped component/progressive scan support as well it might be - I'd certainly wait until it dropped in price before picking it up (but will still get it eventually for the wonderful Nintendo franchises that we all enjoy so much!).

'nuff said - back to games (and Star Wars - can't get some of those scenes out of my head)...
 
Right. I will be disappointed (even though I do not yet own one, it will be the next TV purchase I make - why buy anything else? :dunce: ). But if they do not support HD, about all I can do is shake my tiny fist at them, fork over the dough and then take what they give me. But I doubt that Nintendo would be so cruel. They are a happy company, afterall!

 
[quote name='MorPhiend']Right. I will be disappointed (even though I do not yet own one, it will be the next TV purchase I make - why buy anything else? :dunce: ). But if they do not support HD, about all I can do is shake my tiny fist at them, fork over the dough and then take what they give me. But I doubt that Nintendo would be so cruel. They are a happy company, afterall!

[/QUOTE]

Happy Happy Joy Joy!

(They really are, aren't they? :D)
 
The fighting in Zelda looks worse than ever.. hit *game pause*.. hit *pause* hit *pause* hit *pause*.. watch the Zelda booth tour over at GameTrailers.com.. it's a good half second freeze.. unbelievable

And for god's sake, link the picture, don't embed it.. you're stretching out the forum tables
 
[quote name='Scorch']The fighting in Zelda looks worse than ever.. hit *game pause*.. hit *pause* hit *pause* hit *pause*.. watch the Zelda booth tour over at GameTrailers.com.. it's a good half second freeze.. unbelievable
[/QUOTE]

They do it for dramatic affect, but it does seem out of place in a "realistic Zelda" game. I was actually more excited about this game going into E3 than coming out. I've only heard positive remarks from people who've played it, but i don't know if i'll like the transformations so much and 70 hours of gameplay is too long for a Zelda game. Also, are there any bright portions to this game? Every movie I seen seems to emphasize just how dark it will be.
 
its not like the game will be 70 hours to beat, its 70 hours of gameplay, thats if you want all items, heart containers, and whatever other goodies they throw in the game, im sure the storyline will be much shorter than that
 
I think OoT has the best pacing and difficulty level ever established in a game. Not too easy, not too hard, and always compelling. Any reports on the difficulty?
 
70 hours where did that come from? Link me, because that's news to me. Not forums, i've seen that something at least semi-official. And

""Will there be cut scenes and voice talent this time? "

"Aonuma: I don't want Link to talk very much. Maybe I'll record my own voice and that will be Link's voice! [laughs] I'll have to learn how to speak English, of course.""

So in other words there might be voice acting, just no voice for Link. Which goes with what I was saying before about Bioware type games and them following that trend. (main charecter doesn't have voice acting but everyone else does) So this game might just kick a lot of ass. And as for the people who are iffy on the wolf thing, remember majora's mask. I prefer a wolf to a deku sprite.
 
Found it

http://cube.ign.com/articles/606/606585p1.html

I wonder why this isn't in there current info page on nintendo.com. Because that's dam long. 2-3 times bigger then Ocarina of time. This game might just be one of the best RPG's to come out in the last couple years. Even though I love Jade Empire and Star Ocean: till the end of time, Zelda is my favorite game period.
 
Regarding the voice acting rumor...

I hope that, if they do indeed include voice acting in the game, that it is NOT in English of Japanese. I think what they should do is go the same route as Klonoa and Panzer Dragoon: have the characters speak, but entirely in a made-up language (Hylian, in this case). I think hearing these characters speak English or Japanese would take away a little of the game's immersion, for me. Recording "Hylian" dialog would be a smashing move, I think...
 
[quote name='epobirs']Sailing, sailing,,,[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

Quality time with my GCN...:roll:



I agree coffee. (I wish they had kept the skeksis language in The Dark Crystal...:bomb: )
 
[quote name='thehuskerfan']I want it to at least be a worthwhile 70 hrs.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. For me, it's hard to picture an adventure game keeping its momentum up for 70 hours. If they could do it, it may just turn out to be the greatest game ever made, but if 35 of those hours is TP's equivalent to sailing, what's the point of having it other than saying "over 70 hours of gameplay!" on the back of the box. I think we all have exceedingly high expectations for this game and what them to be met in different ways.
 
isnt the revolution backwards combatible with every game console that nintendo has ever made? i remembering hearing that on an episode of E3 of G4
 
[quote name='YeahRight13']isnt the revolution backwards combatible with every game console that nintendo has ever made? i remembering hearing that on an episode of E3 of G4[/QUOTE]
No, it's only backwards compatible with the GC, but Nintendo will allow gamers to DL their NES, SNES, and N64 games.
 
It's a possibility. I'm sure Nintendo won't be angry at other companies if they join their effort. The NES Classic line for GBA has games from Namco, Konami, and Hudson.
 
[quote name='YeahRight13']isnt the revolution backwards combatible with every game console that nintendo has ever made? i remembering hearing that on an episode of E3 of G4[/QUOTE]

No, it's directly compatible with GameCube, and the chipset will likely be a direct outgrowth of that with the same vendors doing the duties. The older stuff is being supported through emulation.

On that same basis there is a whole range of older platform librariess the competing machines might play host to. Sega and SNKwould likely be very interested in such an arrangement.
 
[quote name='RelentlessRolento']i hope they allow for some DL of their older portables such as Virtual Boy (except i hop you can emulate in colors other than red... gahh)[/QUOTE]

What would be the point without the true 3D effect?
 
[quote name='epobirs']No, it's directly compatible with GameCube, and the chipset will likely be a direct outgrowth of that with the same vendors doing the duties. The older stuff is being supported through emulation.

On that same basis there is a whole range of older platform librariess the competing machines might play host to. Sega and SNKwould likely be very interested in such an arrangement.[/QUOTE]

Oooo... I like that. I refrained for about fifteen years from buying a Neo Geo (seriously, who can afford that?). That would be nice...
 
SE not to Happy about Nintendo's Revolution iGames.

http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2005/1535.html

While Wada has repeatedly emphasized the growing role of online gaming in the past, he acknowledged the new online features offered by the three next generation console were in fact troubling him. As an example he cited Nintendo's plan to offer a game download service upon launching its new platform Revolution next year. According to Wada, the question of how much profit would be distributed to third party publishers was still entirely opaque. In regard to the other hardware platforms, he explained it was still an open question who would have to shoulder the costs for the proposed online portals. He also could not see how the money would be shared or who would share it once a game had been sold.


Don't expect FFI-VI on the Revolution at this point.
 
[quote name='spoo']SE not to Happy about Nintendo's Revolution iGames.

http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2005/1535.html

While Wada has repeatedly emphasized the growing role of online gaming in the past, he acknowledged the new online features offered by the three next generation console were in fact troubling him. As an example he cited Nintendo's plan to offer a game download service upon launching its new platform Revolution next year. According to Wada, the question of how much profit would be distributed to third party publishers was still entirely opaque. In regard to the other hardware platforms, he explained it was still an open question who would have to shoulder the costs for the proposed online portals. He also could not see how the money would be shared or who would share it once a game had been sold.


Don't expect FFI-VI on the Revolution at this point.[/QUOTE]




SE has yet to make a game worthy of what their name would imply. As a matter of fact, I don't think Square has made a decent game since FFX (which wasn't that great to begin with). It's been nothing but mediocrity since these two singularly great companies merged. I'd like to see Square-Enix support them, but it's really not that great of a loss.

*edit* Also note that the article says he was troubled by Nintendo's online plans, not that he was against/not participating in them.
 
[quote name='spoo']SE not to Happy about Nintendo's Revolution iGames.

http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2005/1535.html

While Wada has repeatedly emphasized the growing role of online gaming in the past, he acknowledged the new online features offered by the three next generation console were in fact troubling him. As an example he cited Nintendo's plan to offer a game download service upon launching its new platform Revolution next year. According to Wada, the question of how much profit would be distributed to third party publishers was still entirely opaque. In regard to the other hardware platforms, he explained it was still an open question who would have to shoulder the costs for the proposed online portals. He also could not see how the money would be shared or who would share it once a game had been sold.


Don't expect FFI-VI on the Revolution at this point.[/QUOTE]
It just seems like he's worried about proffit distribution, but the fact is that Nintendo hasn't released much of any info reguarding the Virtual Console aspect of Revolution, other than that "it's happening". Once further details get hammered out, we might see third party support.

I wouldn't rule it out until we get concrete info.
 
Perfect world. Neo-Geo, 3do, and sega's systems, as well as hand helds. That would be great. And be a huge selling point. And the companies involved probably wouldn't be hard to convince. If Sega refuses that will mean that they haven't completly given up on the idea of a new console. But I think they have so I give it a 70/30 in favor of them coming on board.
 
I have yet to play secret of mana, chrono trigger (I have it on psx, but loading sux), mario rpg, and final fantasy 1-3. If the Revoltuion let you download these game online, I'm definetly getting a revolution next year.
 
So . . . two years later and not only is this ancient thread still up, but still stickied??

Also, LMAO at Smash Bros and FF:CC being available at launch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
bread's done
Back
Top