George Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire BOOK Discussion thread-Book 5 out July 12th

Lets hope that's what it comes to. But even those books have far too many things where big battles etc. happen "off page" and we just hear about it in dialogue after the effect.

So I'm worried to much stuff will have to happen "off page" to wrap everything up night.

I worry about these being like the book version of Lost. Great characters and a lot of interesting plot points, that end up becoming a muddled mess with an unsatisfactory ending.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Lets hope that's what it comes to. But even those books have far too many things where big battles etc. happen "off page" and we just hear about it in dialogue after the effect.

So I'm worried to much stuff will have to happen "off page" to wrap everything up night.

I worry about these being like the book version of Lost. Great characters and a lot of interesting plot points, that end up becoming a muddled mess with an unsatisfactory ending.[/QUOTE]

Well George says he knows the ending and he hates "God did it" endings like LOST, so I wouldn't expect that. People may not like what he chose, and they may not like how he gets there either, but you won't be able to blame the ending on R'hollor, the seven, the drowned god, or any other deity in the series.
 
Oh I didn't mean the god did it ending. I meant how the ignored a lot of plot lines (walt and aeron's significance etc.) and a lot of island mysteries.

Left a lot of things unresolved or with very piss poor resolutions. I worry that will happen here as well with lots of characters/plot lines getting rushed or non-existent resolutions that aren't very satisfying.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Oh I didn't mean the god did it ending. I meant how the ignored a lot of plot lines (walt and aeron's significance etc.) and a lot of island mysteries.

Left a lot of things unresolved or with very piss poor resolutions. I worry that will happen here as well with lots of characters/plot lines getting rushed or non-existent resolutions that aren't very satisfying.[/QUOTE]

I think most of their plotlines are converging (as they've been diverging all of these books), so many of their ends will be mutual.
 
I don't think he'll pull a LOST and leave many threads unresolved. Not just because he's publicly stated that he spends sleepless nights worrying about that exact thing, but because the way things are currently unresolved isn't in the same manner as LOST.

LOST simply didn't tell us anything, they'd raise a question, cue the wonky trombones or screechy strings, and that would be it. It was left to our imaginations to fill in that 99% that was left unresolved, and then when it wasn't resolved (or when the resolution contradicted earlier material or simply didn't make sense), we were rightfully disappointed. GRRM is giving us enough detail on the mysterious asides to let us know the principal players and a general direction (e.g. Sandor the Monk, Robert Strong, Jon's parentage).

For the bigger mysteries that are critical to the main narrative (e.g. Azor Ahai, Aegon, Varys's plans/whereabouts), he'll have to insert that detail if he wants to push the narrative forward. So I think we'll get that.

I'm not worried about him leaving things unfinished, I think he'll probably just have to add another book. It's fine by me if he's willing turn it all out in a timely manner. If it's gonna be 5 years between books, woo boy. I don't know how willing I am to re-read everything each time there's a new book so I can follow things effectively.
 
Good points.

I guess I more worry that the way things are wrapped up won't be satisfying at all and it will all end up feeling like a bit of a waste of time like slogging through Stephen King's Dark Tower series where the last 3 books kind of sucked.
 
Wouldn't it be horrible if something happened to him before he could finish the series?

Don't kill me.
 
I hope Khal Jazzy Jeff gets his own POV chapters in the next book. Maester Uncle Phil needs some too. They can have wacky adventures in a palanquin, with Uncle Phil throwing JJ out of it here and there.

Edit: I finished the fifth book the other night. Today I've tried to read through this thread in between work, and it's been agonizingly slow reading all the spoilers and so forth. Then I clicked on the links to interviews with GRRM, and there's a side link on EW.com about "42 unfortgettable nude scenes."

So that's a good thing to bring up on a work computer.

Also:

[quote name='RR Santa Claus']Why do we even have pain? I was taught pain is to let us know when our body is breaking down. Well, why couldn’t we have a light? Like a dashboard light? If Chevrolet could come up with that, why couldn’t God? Why is agony a good way to handle things?[/quote]

Haha.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ned's classiest pickup line.

82f7a64874eadd6eecbe146c33e849ae.jpg
 
So to continue from what I said in the show thread, Storm of Swords, wow. It felt like it was really dragging for a while and then BAM! I have to assume it starts to drag some after this again, no way Martin could keep that pace for the rest of the book.
 
[quote name='Clak']So to continue from what I said in the show thread, Storm of Swords, wow. It felt like it was really dragging for a while and then BAM! I have to assume it starts to drag some after this again, no way Martin could keep that pace for the rest of the book.[/QUOTE]

Oh he does.
 
I was kind of disappointed by how
Joffery
died, was hoping he'd die in a fight. Should be interesting the rest of the series.
 
[quote name='Clak']I was kind of disappointed by how
Joffery
died, was hoping he'd die in a fight. Should be interesting the rest of the series.[/QUOTE]
What in the novels and that character specifically would have created that expectation?

I feel you, though, dawg, I was kind of disappointed by how
Tyrion
never posterized Bronn in a game of 1-on-1. House Lannister straight ballin, son! Act like ya know.
 
I honestly was hoping he'd piss off the wrong person and they'd just straight kill him/have him killed. As for how, I just wanted it to be violent because of how much of a prick he was. Him choking to death just didn't give me a sense of satisfaction. Had he been beheaded after begging for his life, that would have been satisfying*.

*Damn, wtf is wrong with me...lol.
 
Re-reading A Clash of Kings before the new season. If anyone hasn't checked it out, GRRM posted a new POV (Theon) from The Winds of Winter.

On another note, it is definitely difficult reading GRRM's description of Tyrion and then imagining Peter Dinklage's Tyrion. He is definitely more attractive than the description in the book. I wonder how they are going to make him up when he loses half his nose in the battle of Blackwater in King's Landing (I think that is where it happens).

About the ending of the series, I just hope GRRM doesn't take another 6 years to write tWoW and the final book. I could be old and grey by that point, or even dead. That would suck to have to read it when I'm dead. Does heaven get new releases?
 
I think he'll finish it sooner rather than later. He's gotta be considering authors like Robert Jordan and whatnot, that he better put his other stuff on the back burner and focus on finishing his masterpiece. His football team won the Super Bowl, the press junkets for GoT season two won't require him to globetrot as much, and he does have an assistant now that he brought on halfway through the writing of the last book because it was taking too long to finish.

I think he'll pick up the pace because he doesn't have that split to worry about anymore. He can just write chronologically again rather than write something, not like it, and have to rework and reorganize everything. A decent chunk of the last book's intended content was already written and he just saved it for TWoW (quite a few Dorne chapters, IIRC), so he's got a head start at least.

...I still think the split is going to cause him to add another book to the series though. No way he can have three books worth of buildup, slow it down for two books, and then finish all of it in another two books.
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']I think he'll finish it sooner rather than later.[/QUOTE]

Still, this means we get the 6th no earlier than 2015. I'm not being a dick, either. That's a fairly optimistic estimate.

He recently posted a minor mental breakdown on his notablog. I feel for the dude. You can tell he's a considerate person, he wants to help others as they've helped him. The popularity of the HBO show has made it impossible for him to help any and all, though, and he's cracking.
 
[quote name='dothog']Still, this means we get the 6th no earlier than 2015. I'm not being a dick, either. That's a fairly optimistic estimate.

He recently posted a minor mental breakdown on his notablog. I feel for the dude. You can tell he's a considerate person, he wants to help others as they've helped him. The popularity of the HBO show has made it impossible for him to help any and all, though, and he's cracking.[/QUOTE]

He could cut some of those 8000 trips he takes a year. Does he really need to be at every single convention?
 
[quote name='thebob101']Re-reading A Clash of Kings before the new season. If anyone hasn't checked it out, GRRM posted a new POV (Theon) from The Winds of Winter.

On another note, it is definitely difficult reading GRRM's description of Tyrion and then imagining Peter Dinklage's Tyrion. He is definitely more attractive than the description in the book. I wonder how they are going to make him up when he loses half his nose in the battle of Blackwater in King's Landing (I think that is where it happens).

About the ending of the series, I just hope GRRM doesn't take another 6 years to write tWoW and the final book. I could be old and grey by that point, or even dead. That would suck to have to read it when I'm dead. Does heaven get new releases?[/QUOTE]Yeah, although all the characters have been tweaked for the series I think, Tyrion was probably changed the most. He isn't a bad looking guy in the series, in the books he's got two differently colored eyes for crying out loud.
 
Good interview with GRRM.

Excerpt from good interview with GRRM:
Yes, I think I'm starting to see it, but that's still a very long tunnel. The last book was 1,500 pages in manuscript. I think each of the next two will be at least as long, so that's 3,000 more pages that I still have to write, and that's a considerable amount of writing.

I've reached a point where I have to stop thinking about things like that, because it's just too daunting. I write one chapter at a time, one scene at a time, one sentence at a time, and don't worry about the rest. Step by step, sooner or later, the journey will get me there.
Click to expand...

Up until the release of DwD and the TV show, I was amused that people thought he would pull a Wheel of Time/Jordan, but reading comments like that from GRRM makes those concerns less amusing. The things he's saying are nearly identical to the kind of things you hear from people who are completely in the weeds, as they say in the service industry.

I feel sorry for him. In every interview or blog post, the guy sounds tired, he doesn't sound like someone building for a finish, he sounds like a person struggling to keep up. It's unfortunate that they're doing TV show in a traditional year-after-year process. An extended hiatus would lessen the interview and personal appearance requests and give him a chance to recuperate. Not write, just rest.
 
[quote name='dothog']Still, this means we get the 6th no earlier than 2015. I'm not being a dick, either. That's a fairly optimistic estimate.

He recently posted a minor mental breakdown on his notablog. I feel for the dude. You can tell he's a considerate person, he wants to help others as they've helped him. The popularity of the HBO show has made it impossible for him to help any and all, though, and he's cracking.[/QUOTE]

I think he will finish the book sooner rather than later. If he is already cranking out POV's from tWoW, that means he is working on it. The way I figure it, A Storm of Swords is one season, maybe two and then A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons will be a season each. That means they will be done with production of those seasons by 2015-2016. They will need at least a year for season 6 or 7 (depending a book being split into two seasons). I would guess the release is going to be 2014.
 
[quote name='thebob101']I think he will finish the book sooner rather than later. If he is already cranking out POV's from tWoW, that means he is working on it. The way I figure it, A Storm of Swords is one season, maybe two and then A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons will be a season each. That means they will be done with production of those seasons by 2015-2016. They will need at least a year for season 6 or 7 (depending a book being split into two seasons). I would guess the release is going to be 2014.[/QUOTE]

Read interview above. I think 2014 is very optimistic and perhaps unrealistic. GRRM comments in that interview that he has two chapters from TWOW on his website, and beyond that, he has a lot of work ahead of him. His tone does not sound like that of a man who's well into a first draft of TWOW, but I'm admittedly reading into things, there.

Anyhow, he needs at least a year to tinker with a complete, rough draft -- my understanding is that he takes his editors and friends' reviews seriously. So late 2014 assumes he has a rough draft by the start of the calendar year of 2014, and the way it sounds now, that's not realistic.

As for the TV show, I doubt that it has any bearing on GRRM's work other than the time it takes away from his writing. I can't imagine that he's allowing its production run to set any deadlines for himself.
 
Yeah, I just read an interview on my iPad earlier (maybe same one above) and he said he only had about 200 pages of book 6 done and expected it to take 2 years to finish.
 
That article mentions the shift in chapter titles starting with AFFC, that's one thing I don't like about it. I know what he said about shifting identities and all, but that's been happening basically since the first book and he didn't use them back then.
 
[quote name='Clak']That article mentions the shift in chapter titles starting with AFFC, that's one thing I don't like about it. I know what he said about shifting identities and all, but that's been happening basically since the first book and he didn't use them back then.[/QUOTE]

Sure, it's maybe a bit too obvious, but I don't think it takes away from anything.

I'm not about to troll the TV thread, so I'm just going to say it here -- let's take it as a discussion of our favorite characters more than TV talk. I didn't much care for the first season of the show, but I thought I'd at least check out the first episode of S2. Now that they've already used Littlefinger to revise Cersei for TV, my interest in the show is zero. If "fitting" ASOIAF to TV means you hobble one of the most compelling villains in the show, then you done wrong.

To me, it's like deciding that Sandor and Gregor aren't brothers. On the surface maybe someone says, eh, just details. But you've lost so much in terms of deep, meaningful motivation. From now on, in TV-land, Baelish loses that air of being Pure Playa #1. His motivation is muddled. He was the one player of the game of throne who played for love of the game, aside from swiping at Cat for rejecting him. And his approach to the game of thrones was the only original approach out there, everyone else is using some manner of heredity and force.

Now in TV-land you don't know about Baelish, is it about Cat, is it getting back at Cersei, is he holding a grudge against Casterly Rock in general, what? That's a big loss IMO. I know the books and TV do not occupy the same space, but it sucks to see one of my favorite characters be stepped on. I suppose the TV show is going to make Victarion into a servant instead of a Greyjoy.

Deep inside the HBO production offices...

EXEC A: Man, how many brothers Greyjoy are there?
EXEC B: I dunno, like 50? Are those the ones with the deer, or the other ones with the sexy sister that gets on the brother?
EXEC C: Ah, right, the incest scene...

*C points to loosely bound pages in folder labeled "dude nearly bangs hot sister...BOOMBASTIC do not lose!!!!"*

EXEC A: Brainstorm! We lose a brother!
EXEC B: Which one?
EXEC A: Oh, definitely the moody one, Victor or whatever. The sad sack. We gotta keep the preacher for religion and shit.
EXEC C: Sure, we just cut the one with a "V". Done.
EXEC A: No, we keep him, we can't just cut him, we've got to honor the source material, here, this is serious stuff.

*B and C eye one another anxiously*

EXEC A: We just make him into a house boy or something.
EXEC B: We make him a house girl.
EXEC C: With massive bolt-ons.

*the executives exchange high fives*
 
I don't think his motivation is necessarily muddled, I never thought he was doing this just for the hell of it either though. He wants power that's for certain, he also hated Ned because he stole Cat, I think marrying Lysa was the gain control of the Vale, and of course he wants Sansa because she reminds him of Cat. Maybe in the show they add motivation in the form of hatred for the Lannisters, but that doesn't drastically change him.
 
He's a great character, and I think a lot of it has to do with the clarity of his motivation. I think allowing Cersei this rebuke of him does muddle things.

In the books, I don't deny that his desire to get back at Cat underlies everything -- it was a defining moment in his teens. But I think Baelish as a person has accumulated power not in the way of someone who's doing everything toward one grand goal (such as revenge on Cat or winning the game of thrones), but someone who is a master opportunist and rises simply to meet the challenge of each opportunity.

For instance, he saw players in the game of thrones at cross purposes, and in recognizing that he saw an opportunity. That's why he stepped in, not because he wants to be King and Ruler of Westeros but because he's a scavenger in that way. He's a high dollar scavenger, he's the biggest crow in that "feast of crows."

In doing it, he's proved himself to be unethical and a huge prick, but hey, it is who he be. And I think making him the object of scorn from Cersei makes him less of a crow, and I don't like that, I think it's essential to who he is. I like the character better when you think, "He's a bombass pimp, and this is his pimp game, but maybe he's getting back at Cat? Nah, he a pimp."

Introducing Cersei this way is just weird, and it takes something big away. I think the analogy with Gregor/Sandor is the same, they still work as characters if they aren't brothers, but just that one little detail adds so much to Sandor's actions. In the same way, the addition of this conflict with Cersei takes away from Baelish's actions. I'm glad it's something that remains part of the show. I expect good things from Baelish in the next book.
 
That was just a single scene though, doesn't mean he's going to be in conflict with her this whole season. They may play it off that part of the reason he's given lands and title later on was to keep him quiet about what he knows. Would reinforce the "knowledge is power line". He scared Cersei into basically paying him off. Who knows though, I don't think it hurts the character any.
 
Yeah, the series did neuter Littlefinger too much (no pun intended). In the grand scheme of things, the scene didn't matter. But it did knock him down lower than Varys when they were supposed to be completely equal in their way of being unseen by those with the power while having more than them behind the scenes. I guess maybe they want to justify the things Littlefinger does, which in the book are not revealed until much later but HBO felt the need to give the "viewer" a reason now so they won't be confused? I think the scene would have been better if Littlefinger kept his cool better. Seeing him damn near shit his pants was VERY contrary to his character.

For me, I really wish they'd kill off Ros. She's my least favorite character because she was basically just made up for the the show. She's just a person for more important characters to talk to because they didn't have POVs in the books but were big enough players in "the game." Like the Grand Maester and Slynt.
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']Yeah, the series did neuter Littlefinger too much (no pun intended). In the grand scheme of things, the scene didn't matter. But it did knock him down lower than Varys when they were supposed to be completely equal in their way of being unseen by those with the power while having more than them behind the scenes. I guess maybe they want to justify the things Littlefinger does, which in the book are not revealed until much later but HBO felt the need to give the "viewer" a reason now so they won't be confused? I think the scene would have been better if Littlefinger kept his cool better. Seeing him damn near shit his pants was VERY contrary to his character.
[/QUOTE]
I'd say in the grand scheme of the show, it mattered in the sense that they've reduced the field of serious players by one. I would guess they only have room for so many players in the game, and in whittling down the field, they thought, Why just cut Baelish out when we could cut him out and use him to emphasize Cersei as a major player even more?

And that's a good hypothesis on a secondary reason why it was done, to make Baelish's motivations more transparent. In discussing it to this point, I've made it out to be a bad thing, but then, in TV I suppose you have to work a lot harder at subtlety and they obviously don't have room for that. In that sense I commend them for making the tough decisions, it just sucks to see it happen to a character as cool as Baelish.

Like I said, I'm glad this revision of Baelish is exclusive to the show.

[quote name='Clak']That was just a single scene though, doesn't mean he's going to be in conflict with her this whole season. They may play it off that part of the reason he's given lands and title later on was to keep him quiet about what he knows. Would reinforce the "knowledge is power line". He scared Cersei into basically paying him off. Who knows though, I don't think it hurts the character any.[/QUOTE]
But one scene is all it takes. He doesn't have to speak to Cersei for the rest of the show, it's been set up now that Baelish isn't a player for the sake of the game, now in the TV show you could make the argument that he's playing the game in self-defense, that he's afraid of House Lannister or whatever the hell.

It is what it is, and now I realize that I don't begrudge it of the show, somebody had to get pared back to make it all fit. However, I don't think you can argue that it didn't change him substantially in terms of the game of thrones. It was intentional. Again, it was a tough decision and I credit the producers for making it. I realize TV isn't going to be able to adequately depict how awesome Baelish is (in a scheming, court intrigue sense) in the way they could do for a character like Jaime (in the action, redeemed anti-hero sense).

And "power is power" is a dumb line. It's just dumb, it's a fanfic-level retort.
 
It was a single scene, I think you're looking too much into it. He's still going to do what he does, even if the reasoning may slightly change. What I actually wish had happened, that I think would have been badass, is if after Cersei ordered the knights to arrest Littlefinger, and she starts showing off her power, he ordered them to attack her instead, and they obeyed. That would have shown Cersei that her power wasn't as absolute as she thinks, and that money brings power as easily as a title.
 
[quote name='dothog']Read interview above. I think 2014 is very optimistic and perhaps unrealistic. GRRM comments in that interview that he has two chapters from TWOW on his website, and beyond that, he has a lot of work ahead of him. His tone does not sound like that of a man who's well into a first draft of TWOW, but I'm admittedly reading into things, there.

Anyhow, he needs at least a year to tinker with a complete, rough draft -- my understanding is that he takes his editors and friends' reviews seriously. So late 2014 assumes he has a rough draft by the start of the calendar year of 2014, and the way it sounds now, that's not realistic.

As for the TV show, I doubt that it has any bearing on GRRM's work other than the time it takes away from his writing. I can't imagine that he's allowing its production run to set any deadlines for himself.[/QUOTE]

My guess is 2015 at the earliest, if that. To be honest, I think GRRM is going kick the bucket well before the 6th book comes out. I mean cmon, the guy is out of shape, getting old, and super stressed. Unlike Robert Jordan, I dont think he has organized his thoughts and vision into a storyboard/script/detailed notes and I think whoever is left to pick up the pieces of Song of Fire and Ice is going to have to play it by ear. Just my thoughts...
 
[quote name='Clak']It was a single scene, I think you're looking too much into it. He's still going to do what he does, even if the reasoning may slightly change. What I actually wish had happened, that I think would have been badass, is if after Cersei ordered the knights to arrest Littlefinger, and she starts showing off her power, he ordered them to attack her instead, and they obeyed. That would have shown Cersei that her power wasn't as absolute as she thinks, and that money brings power as easily as a title.[/QUOTE]

That scene was to establish that Cersei is a major player who's on top of Baelish. That is a serious departure from the books, Cersei wouldn't outflanked Baelish, it's ridiculous. As evident in AFFC, Cersei is not big on forethought, to the extent that not only is she outmaneuvered by Baelish, even Margaery gets the better of her!

If they'd done as you suggested with that scene, they'd have completely negated the entire point of the scene. I think you're missing the narrative reasons for doing that: in the TV show, Cersei needs to be made bigger, Baelish needs to be made more of a lesser player, and Baelish's motivations need to be simplified (as crunchberry aka Mrs. Jorah Mormont notes).

This is a decision the producers made. Complainers like me just have to suck it up if we're going to continue watching or say, nope, I'm done. You're right that the scene isn't a huge deal in the course of the TV season, there will be much bigger scenes. However, it is a huge deal if you were looking for Baelish to be the player that he is in the books. This changes the how/why of what he does from here on out.

For instance, as a result of this one scene in the show, Baelish's later actions using the Kettleblacks, if they're included, will be seen on TV as revenge against Cersei rather than the cunning precautions that they were in the books. I'm sure that's intentional, as it's easier for viewers to understand (again, tip o' the hat to Jorah4Life) in the reduced scope of the TV show.

[quote name='blackjaw']My guess is 2015 at the earliest, if that. To be honest, I think GRRM is going kick the bucket well before the 6th book comes out. I mean cmon, the guy is out of shape, getting old, and super stressed. Unlike Robert Jordan, I dont think he has organized his thoughts and vision into a storyboard/script/detailed notes and I think whoever is left to pick up the pieces of Song of Fire and Ice is going to have to play it by ear. Just my thoughts...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he sounds very stressed. And you're right, he has described his writing process and he prefers to "write through" things. (Hence the time it took to untangle the Meereenese knot.) All those seeds of POVs and such are stored in his head.
 
I'll never get why people get so miffed when movies/shows diverge from the source material. I get bored with adaptations that are 100% faithful to the source material personally as I've already ready it.
 
Well, re: Baelish, it's a good character whose potential is being reduced. I understand the show is what it is, what prompted it mostly was that the character was being reduced and a lot is being lost with that.

But to your point, it's like pop covers. There are good pop covers that reveal aspects of a tune previously unrealized or misunderstood. These good pop covers don't flinch in the face of sophistication, and may even exceed the original.

Then there are bad covers, most of which are bad because they lack the ability and understanding to reveal anything in the original, much less reproduce it in full. The modifications they make aren't "revisions," they're compromises to accommodate lesser ability, resources, and/or time. They take away from, they don't add to, an understanding of the original.

So I guess I don't get why people waste time on a bad cover when they could listen to the original. If they aren't aware of the original, that's one thing. But to listen to a shitty cover when you have the real deal nearby...I don't get that.
 
Not a fair analogy as those are still both songs when you're talking about cover versions.

Books and tv/movies are different media so I don't mind changes and kind of like seeing what a director/producer/screenwriter changes. Some are good and some are bad of course as with any change/adaptation.

But I generally do a good job of enjoying shows/movies without thinking much about what they changed and whether I liked the book version more etc. as I just view them as separate entities as much as I can so I can just enjoy each on their own merits.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Personally, I was glad to see Baelish put in his place. The fact that Cersei responded to him by showing him what power really is doesn't exactly change much. We already knew that she is more powerful than him, it's just that he tried to overstep her and she wasn't going to let that happen.
 
[quote name='dothog'](as crunchberry aka Mrs. Jorah Mormont notes).
[/QUOTE]

Lol, careful, you're showing a little too much interest in Baelish...

I really don't think they need to emphasize Cersei's power anymore. Certainly not after having a baby killed semi-onscreen. Where the first guy didn't even want to do that heinous shit, so the guy she warned about not doing his job had to do it himself.

I think maybe the whole thing was setup for events down the road that won't be revisited until then. Especially when they introduced BOOK SPOILER
Ser Dontos in the same episode. Who is part of Littlefinger's plan later on.
.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Not a fair analogy as those are still both songs when you're talking about cover versions.

Books and tv/movies are different media so I don't mind changes and kind of like seeing what a director/producer/screenwriter changes. Some are good and some are bad of course as with any change/adaptation.

But I generally do a good job of enjoying shows/movies without thinking much about what they changed and whether I liked the book version more etc. as I just view them as separate entities as much as I can so I can just enjoy each on their own merits.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I got a little goofy there. Out of hand, even.

I realize the show is good fun for people. I suppose it's just that I don't like the two existing in the same space for fear that one (the TV show) will somehow influence outcomes in the other (the books). I realize this is unlikely.

In any case, I'm glad there's a thread for the show and one for the books.

[quote name='pippin']Personally, I was glad to see Baelish put in his place. The fact that Cersei responded to him by showing him what power really is doesn't exactly change much. We already knew that she is more powerful than him, it's just that he tried to overstep her and she wasn't going to let that happen.[/QUOTE]
You're confusing the books and the show. The characters are not facsimiles. Cersei Lannister in the books is not in a position to overpower anyone except for peons. Anyone with a modicum of awareness is already a step ahead of Cersei. This is not my opinion, this is stated explicitly by Tyrion, Varys, etc.
 
[quote name='dothog'] Cersei Lannister in the books is not in a position to overpower anyone except for peons. Anyone with a modicum of awareness is already a step ahead of Cersei. This is not my opinion, this is stated explicitly by Tyrion, Varys, etc.[/QUOTE]

True. In the books (which has been dealt with a little, probably more to come on the show) her father was really the one in power. After Robert died her son became King, but she couldn't even control him, so Tywin temporarily passes his Hand duties to Tyrion to keep Joffrey in line. I think the show is just emphasizing how much power Cersei *thinks* she has, then you've got a scene where Tyrion just up and sends that guy to the wall, replacing him with Bronn. One second Bronn is just a sellsword, the next second Bronn controls the guards in the same way Cersei did against Littlefinger.

That was one of the few real big events of book 4, that
Cersei had such power over people like Sansa because they lived in a fairytale world and had to learn the hard way that life was cruel (ironically being Littlefinger's protege once she was smuggled out). Then Cersei tried pulling that shit with Margaery, who was raised to play the game of thrones by the conniving matriarchs in her family. By that time, all the people Cersei had as a shield were dead, fled, or abandoned her. Part of why I love the series, a character can be loathed or loved, then it gets flipped around on the reader. Those Tyrell and Martell women put Cersei to shame.

[quote name='dothog']
I suppose it's just that I don't like the two existing in the same space for fear that one (the TV show) will somehow influence outcomes in the other (the books). I realize this is unlikely.
[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure the show will never influence the book. If anything it's the other way around. Martin has revealed the full story to a select few show creators. You've got some scenes put in the show that were dealing with stuff that is being dealt with in future books. Such as
Ned and Jon Snow's farewell, where it heavily reinforces the rumor that WARNING: PROBABLY THE KING OF ALL SPOILERS FOR THE BOOKS, AND LIKELY THE MEANING OF THE SERIES' NAME
Jon Snow is the daughter of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, that Rhaegar didn't abduct Lyanna, they ran off together and had a son
.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I loved that scene from last episode in Littlefinger's brothel, where he wipes the woman's mouth right before she kisses dude. The look on Littlefinger's face was priceless. He's still the man, even if he does have to let some people think they have more power.
 
Lots of GRRM news lately. First he reveals the word Brienne yelled out, then he gives a solid indication of his internal deadlines for the last books (he's feeling the heat from the softcore series already).

I'm not including the Brienne reveal. A google search will get you there. Not trying to be a dick, just don't think spoiler tags are sufficient.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top