Homeland Security Dept. and Patriot Act in action...

You're right. obviously need to call the police whenever somebody takes pictures and writes notes - which would be only whenever a student gets an outdoor photography assignment. this way we can keep police busy and keep the terrorists safe from them at the same time.

and you're right about michael moore. I saw the movie, considered the facts and opinions, but didn't once think about the fact that he was fat. obviously that invalidates everything he said.
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever'][quote name='eldad9']'Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin.[/quote]

Not to go off on a tangent, but that is an amazin quote. Especially from the time he was living in. Franklin has to be one of the most important Americans of all time. Smart, well versed, an inventor and enjoyed livations, my type of American[/quote]

Of course, if he were alive today he'd be alternately vomitting in rage and punching you and anyone else in the area in the crotch after he sees what we've let happen to the country...
 
I agree maynard.

However I think bush is an idiot for different reasons. Example I really want to see stem cell research happen. I really want to see abortion not be scrutinized. I want the religious agendas to stop. Gov't and Religion should not mix. However I do agree with bush about some things. One being the war, and the other being gay marriage. I also think the whole FCC thing with Stern is bullshit as well. Howard can't even do his best bits like it's just wrong and farting contests. I will vote for Kerry, because kerry is the lesser of the two evils. However I wish that howard dean would still be running or I would vote for him over kerry. So it is like this Bush < Kerry < Dean
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']

Yes the Government should be able to look through your emails. What have you got to hide? If you aren't hiding anything, why would you care.

We have never been free to blow up buildings in the name of imaginary allah. This guy was clearly doing something to attract the attention of the feds. And considering he is using a fake name (I doubt any Middle easterner has the name Ian Spiers), not showing ID, AND the fact that he himself wrote that web page (He may have been leaving out huge parts of the story, to make himself look more innocent), I don't think anyone should be defending the man.

About the Iraq war. Are you glad saddam is out of power? So what if we didn't find WMDs, we never knew they were there to begin with, the president even said that. Saddam had a deadline to get rid of all WMDs within like 72 hours or they would go to war. Saddam sat back and did nothing. Then the UN weapons inspectors were not allowed were they needed to go. Suspicious? I think so.

Don't get me wrong, I do not like bush in the least bit. But it is because of a totally different issue, or issues he is against. The main one is the whole FCC thing with Howard Stern. Also I don't like how he is against Stem Cell research and Abortion. However there are thing I do agree with him on, including banning of Gay marriage and the war. But I think I am going to vote for Kerry this year. And if Howard Dean was still running, I would vote for him...[/quote]


NO, the government should not be able to, at will, look through ANYTHING of yours or mine. Regardless of whether we have anything to hide or not, ALL American citizens are entitled to a right to privacy UNTIL they prove it should be revoked.

With regard to Saddam being out of power, we are no safer now than we were before he was removed. Further, whereas Iraq, for all of its multitude of human rights issues before, was NOT capable of harming the US in the aftermath of the first Gulf war, the country now certainly has become, and will continue to be, a haven for anti-American sentiment and most likely will become the new breeding ground for terrorist activities directed at the US since the previous training ground, Afghanistan, has been essentially cleared out.

While Hussein was in power, the "iron glove" of his dictatorship clearly contained ALL people inside the borders of Iraq. With him removed, the control exhibited over the country before, regardless of how unpleasant, has been irrevocably removed. Also, if we were so concerned with hitting the terrorists where they live, we would have been attacking Saudi Arabia, since 75% of those responsible for the WTC attacks were actually Saudis. Their restrictive, repressive government is friends with ours, however, so that ruled out any chance of any attack there, because ultimately it's all about oil. If it were not, we should've been doing liberation work in North Korea, China, South America and Africa, where rulers and dictatorships have been equally as oppressive and ruthless to their respective populations. NO OIL, in these countries though, so no go. Oh, and by the way, the Shrub, his VP and Rumsfeld ALL said that there were WMD stockpiles in Iraq, and said so unequivocally.

Finally, I'll say this: I'm certain Benjamin Franklin was far more intelligent that you and I both, and he said this:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Any argument about the right of the Government to breach ANY rights of United States citizens should begin and end with an examination of this statement, and judgement about whether the current administration is worthy of another 4 years determined by whether they have adhered to these words or whether they have chosen to trample them underfoot...
 
eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']I agree maynard.

However I think bush is an idiot for different reasons. Example I really want to see stem cell research happen. I really want to see abortion not be scrutinized. I want the religious agendas to stop. Gov't and Religion should not mix. However I do agree with bush about some things. One being the war, and the other being gay marriage. I also think the whole FCC thing with Stern is bullshit as well. Howard can't even do his best bits like it's just wrong and farting contests. I will vote for Kerry, because kerry is the lesser of the two evils. However I wish that howard dean would still be running or I would vote for him over kerry. So it is like this Bush < Kerry < Dean[/quote]

Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.
 
Damn right the war in Iraq is about oil. You don't like it, don't drive. But I don't see you getting rid of your car, because you are a hypocrite.

Besides why should you care if we at war, you don't have to fight it.
 
BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore
 
[quote name='Maynard']eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN[/quote]

I'm 5'11"; I'm at 182 pounds; my ass is my best feature; bite it.

Yes, it was childish, but I was pointing out the childishness in the argument.
 
WHY WOULD YOU SAY SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! Why do you think the war in Iraq is about oil, do you have a compound of evidence that would suggest such a silly claim. You do realize that our oil situation has always been the same and hasn't changed in over ten years. Which means that it was the same during *GASP* Bill Clintons term! OH LORD WHAT NOW NOT THE DEMOCRATS TOO, OHHHH WHOA IS ME... ::tears::. The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and fucking HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake fucking think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore


meynerd
 
[quote name='eldad9'][quote name='Maynard']eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN[/quote]

I'm 5'11"; I'm at 182 pounds; my ass is my best feature; bite it.

Yes, it was childish, but I was pointing out the childishness in the argument.[/quote]
MM tastes ripe, i'm not going to start a flame war but i have to retalliate with force and speed, it's the American way right? But i completely agree that this whole political agenda doesn't belong on cag cause all it does is start flame wars, imagine stick 50+people in a room and say "Say whatever is on your mind about politics and debate" it would be Waco Texas all over...

mn
 
[quote name='Maynard']WHY WOULD YOU SAY SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! Why do you think the war in Iraq is about oil, do you have a compound of evidence that would suggest such a silly claim. You do realize that our oil situation has always been the same and hasn't changed in over ten years. Which means that it was the same during *GASP* Bill Clintons term! OH LORD WHAT NOW NOT THE DEMOCRATS TOO, OHHHH WHOA IS ME... ::tears::. The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and shaq-fuing HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake shaq-fuing think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore


meynerd[/quote]

that is really dumb, of course its about oil we dont give a shit about dictators if they are on our side. We like to use smaller countries to our advantage and when we fight the hand that feeds them we attack. Just like....Iraq, yeah we did give them weapons, we wanted Iran taken down so we gave them to saddam.
rumsfeld-saddam.jpg


Looks like they are buds, I mean when u give someone an arsenal of weapons u better be able to trust them. There are plenty of people dying of hunger and diseases in the world, which is a lot safer than battling in foreign country, but we dont really dont give a rats ass about those people. We care about middle east and oil, we dont care about Africa and aids.
 
Maynard-

I would love to spend hours addressing your post, but I simply don't have the time. As a lifelong Chicagoan, I would like to first say that I do not lock my doors when I'm downtown and see and African American. I'm usually riding the el or the bus with them...and they haven't killed me yet...and I'm 37 years old.

I'm glad you are willing to sacrifice your personal freedoms. But make no mistake, your sacrifice of freedom in no way helps the fight against terrorism. It only helps the terrorists terrorize...

As for the "dumb 'brown'" man...this just goes to show that you would rather judge someone negatively than positively. All because you have chosen a life of fear. A life predicated on lack of knowledge rather than knowledge. A life that assumes the worst rather than the best.

This life you have chosen, your willingness to turn on your countrymen, your willingness to suspiciously look at "brown" men as dumb, your eagerness to choose to sacrifice your freedoms--this is the life the terrorists want you to live.

So Maynard, I will be voting this November, as I have every4th November since 1984. I will be voting Democratic, as I have in every election since 1984.

I am NOT willing to give up my freedom, I am NOT willing to turn on my neighbors for the sake of safety, I am NOT willing to let Bush prop up his cronies and their companies at the expense of me and my children. I am NOT willing to be appeased by a few hundred dollars in tax savings while the country spends, spends, spends money it doesn't have. I am not willing to let Bush suddenly separate himself from the enormous crooks that were his friends a few years ago...like Kennyboy over at Enron.

I will do everything that is within my rights as a U.S. citizin to keep Bush out of office. Our country, but more importantly, our freedom can't afford it....
 
It really does belong in off-topic/non-gaming, which is where it is.

Unless we get a politics board (and maybe a sports board)? Plus, hopefully people get the option to hide posts in particular boards, so those not interested in politics won't see these subjects on the front page.
 
Maynard-
If this is the case (protecting the freedom of the innocents), then why aren't we bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia, North Korea, or China. Why Iraq, and why now?

Those are the questions we should be asking.

Freedom is not easy. People often will choose security over liberty, but the less liberty we have, the less safe we become. This is particulary true in issues of privacy and our right to privacy....
 
dude i respect your opinion but don't fucking say that i turned on my country you fuck, i was first in line to sign up for the war and support whatever i had to.


As for the person with the rumsfield picture find me something that wasn't used in farenheit 9/11. There was more to that meeting than you think look it up.

Meynerd
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore[/quote]

You cant compare slavery to religion.
 
And I am going to say it again. You don't like the Iraq war because it is Oil based, then don't support it by driving. Walk, Bike do whatever, just don't support it by driving. If you can't do that then you have no right to complain about it.
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']You don't like our country and who runs it, then LEAVE! Go to Iraq if it is much safer there. Go on we don't need you here.[/quote]

First off that is half of your posts leaving it or dying. You really make persuasive arguments. You have no idea about what it is to be an American, being a mindless automaton, is not being an American. Speaking your mind freely, standing up for yourself when you feel bamboozled by your government, those are all American traits. I love my country and would fight to Defend it not launch a strike on another country. Just because I hate our current president does not make me less of an American, just following with your eyes closed and your freedoms taken away is not be an American at all and it makes me sick.
 
Dragonlordfrodo-
Using your logic, anytime we disagree with our leaders we should leave the country and live somewhere else...where does that concept actually come from. When you disagreed with your parents did you tell them never to speak to you again?

The problem with society today is exactly that, rather than solve problems, people run away. Divorce at an all time high, instant gratification. Don't like it, leave it...no solutions, only compounded problems.

Here's something you should try out...you don't like it, do something to make it better. Then, instead of a negative on top of a negative, you've got a postive.

Someone says something mean to you, you smile and say good day.

Make the country better, one smile at a time...don't be afraid...don't tell people to run away...
 
Why is it that so many Republicans and right wingers are so negative and vitriolic?

Why do they have to resort to insults and scattalogical statements instead of logic and constructive ideas?

What are they afraid of? WHO are they afraid of?

Is freedom so terrible?
 
[quote name='BigNick'][quote name='Ikohn4ever']BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore[/quote]

You cant compare slavery to religion.[/quote]

I am just saying they both shaped the America that we have today and if you are goin to talk about the significance of one aspect you cant forget some of the others, even though they arent shining examples of Americana at its best.
 
Because the next person i believe we'll go after is Iran because they had more to do with 9/11 than anyone else in my opinion. I wonder though, and i dont mean to this be an ass, I bet you saw Farenhiet 9/11 and thats your poster or agenda of why you hate Bush. Like all the reaons in one 2 hour movie, because it seems that every John Kerry follower has the same view. I also disagree with you that you never would racial profile anyone, i don't believe you for one second that if your daughter/son was walking down the street and another scraggily homeless possibly or dirty person came up to say hi and lean down to talk to her you wouldn't feel a little uneasy? Yeah, yeah you would. You see someone on a plane middle eastern looks suspicious, looking around alot, makes you think twice i bet? Yeah, yeah it would.

so don't lecture me on racial profiling i gaurentee that you have done it once or twice, its my duty as an american to report or be suspicious of anyone doing anything i might find 'fishy' whether he's black, white, chinese, japanese etc. and i'll defend my freedom in america no matter what the cost, just tell me where to aim and shoot. In my personal opinion Kerry will lose this november but it will be close

meynerd
 
Yeah what are you doing to make the nation a better place? No you handing out flyers saying vote kerry? No. What about Protesting? Probably not. You are probably just sitting on the internet complianing while nothing gets done
 
I'm not being vile! I'm pissed at you saying that I have chosen to turn on my countrymen?!?!?! fuck YOU, if you look suspicious i'm turning your fucking ass in i don't care who you are that is my point, i don't care about some kid taking photos. I say again when you lose someone in an act such as the WTC let me know cause your opinion will change. I didn't turn on my countrymen, don't threaten my patrioticism, who the hell do you think you are? Take your drama queen sob stories else where, i'm an american, born, raised, and will be forever because it's the god damn best country in the freaking world. Maybe YOU abandoned YOUR countrymen by not helping our armed forces? Tables can be turned fast, ignorance can't


meynerd
 
[quote name='Maynard'] The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and shaq-fuing HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake shaq-fuing think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore

meynerd[/quote]

Bullsh!t. Plain and simple. Those same human rights violations are going AS WE SIT HERE AND TYPE in China, North Korea, several countries in Africa as well as in South America. Where is the rush to get those situations resolved by this administration? Thats right, there isn't any. Right now, North Korea is a real, tangible threat to the safety and security of the United States at least 100 times greater than Iraq. Why aren't we invading there as well, since, you know, they actually HAVE nuclear capabilities and have threatened to use them.

Oh, and by the way, were it not for American citizen discord with governmental policies and the infringement of those policies on the liberties of said citizens, we wouldn't have a United States to live in. How do you suppose we actually came to have a country separate from the rule of the British during the 1700's, anyway? That's right, an uprising of the citizens who thought, correctly, that their interests were not being served adequately by their governing body...
 
It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race...

I have not seen F9/11 yet...I want to...there are a million other things I can list that show how evil Bush and his buddies are...

Bush lied about WMD.
Bush never apologized to the U.S.
Bush spends our money at a rate that is unbelievable and has made the deficit HUUUUUUGE.
Bush lied before the last election about his arrest record.
Bush wants to take away overtime for 8 million workers.
Bush protects the rich at the expense of the poor.
Rather than my emails...Bush should start taking away people's freedom to carry guns...that's the first freedom he should be looking at...

Would I call the police if a strange man was taking pictures...hell no. Would I tell the stewardess that the man in the turban had a laptop with him...shit no...

That stuff isn't suspicious...it's paranoid and wacko and is a philosophy of fear...again, the terrorists have gotten what they wanted...they managed to take away our freedoms...
 
The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed.

Is that what Bush told us before we went to war? Is that the reason why we went in the first place? If that were the reason, why aren't we going into Sudan, where there is a GENOCIDE taking place right now? Before the war, we were told that they had WMD, that they were a clear and present danger to America, and that they were involved with Al Qaeda and 9/11. None of that is true. Its also not a "war for oil", but it was their agenda to invade Iraq since before they took office.


Because the next person i believe we'll go after is Iran because they had more to do with 9/11 than anyone else in my opinion.

The Saudis had more to do with 9/11 than anyone. Most of the hijackers were Saudi. Bin Laden is a Saudi. They were funded with Saudi money. One of the reasons they hate us is because we keep the Saudi regime in power, which is almost as bad as Hussien. They don't just hate us "because of our freedom".


I also disagree with you that you never would racial profile anyone, i don't believe you for one second that if your daughter/son was walking down the street and another scraggily homeless possibly or dirty person came up to say hi and lean down to talk to her you wouldn't feel a little uneasy?

Thats not racial profiling.


You see someone on a plane middle eastern looks suspicious, looking around alot, makes you think twice i bet? Yeah, yeah it would.

If you see anyone on a plane that looks suspicious and looks around a lot, you'd think twice. If I see a middle easterner on a plane, acting normally like anyone else, I don't think twice about it.
 
Not being bothered about other citizen's civil rights getting stepped on IS turning on your country. People with such a mindset erode our freedoms and hurt our country more than any terrorist attack ever could. Don't DARE think of yourself as a patriot if you're fine with allowing your fellow American to be treated as the one in this story was. It's unacceptable conduct even if race wasn't involved and the fact that it WAS makes it all the more sickening.
 
It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race... - Loserboy

Well right there
you are racially profiling. You are saying it isn't because it is about white people? So whites aren't a race??
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race... - Loserboy

Well right there
you are racially profiling. You are saying it isn't because it is about white people? So whites aren't a race??[/quote]

I think he's referring to statistics, in other words, numerical data. Or maybe they don't teach that in Harkness. :roll:
 
[quote name='BigNick']Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.[/quote]

Was it now? Or was _FREEDOM_ from religion the basis?

Thomas Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Mineva in the brain of Jupiter."

"Question with boldness the existence of God. I do not believe any of the Christian doctrines. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all then to blaspheme him by the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a demon and malignant spirit."

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythology."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one he must more approve of the homage of Reason than of blindfolded fear . . . [N]aturally examine, first the religion of your own country. Read the Bible . . . For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood for several hours . . . it is said that the writer of that book was inspired.
Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to . . . inquiry, because millions believe it.
On the other hand . . . it is contrary to the laws of Nature . . . [R]ead the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, Of those who say he was begotten of God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of Nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, Of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who wet out with pretensions to divinity; ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law . . .
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by an fear of consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven; and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness, of the decision."

Thomas Paine:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"The character of Moses is the most horrid tale that can be imagined. Moses was a wretch that committed the most horrible atrocities that can be found in the literature of any nation. 'For Moses said unto them (according to the Bible), kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him, but al the women that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.'
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book. Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie."

James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance."

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principles of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the United States forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them, and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not involve the principle of a national establishment . . . ?"

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of greed has produced!"

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

"The priesthood have, in all nations, monopolized learning, and ever since the Reformation where or when has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate a free inquiry or free thought. The most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahoooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find that you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hands, and fly into your face and eyes."
 
If you are going to debate, then do it, without attacking me personally. Lets attack the issue not the person. I have not judged anyone during this whole thing. I have judged certain issues brought up. So please play the issue not the man. They goes for everyone.
 
A couple of random (food for) thoughts:

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Liberty and freedom. What does that entail these days - it can't just be the name of a women's basketball team and potato wedges. The majority of us can get by without getting inconvenienced. After all, it just means some extra frisking at the airport if you fly, a little more you have to pay for gas at the pump. Yet for non-caucasians, its becoming a bit more than that.

'Racial profiling' is certainly not a new concept. Yet the more you validate it with rationale of 'common sense' or Patriot Acts, the easier it becomes to erode away the rights of non-white Americans, and eventually all of the country. How eager some people are to give away other people's rights, yet when they are inconvenienced they are the ones bitching the loudest.

People are so anxious to say they'll fight for their country. I want you to think to yourself honestly, don't post some ego boosting drivel on here... honestly think to yourself. A relatively low number of soldiers have died so far, yet that says nothing about injuries. Teens and young adults repeat their mantra of 'life sucks' and they start to believe it. How would you like to live the rest of your life with your legs blown off, or end up with long-term painful side effects such as those who came back from Desert Storm had. Now that would really suck.

I'm surprised no one mentioned McCarthyism, even though Communism was mentioned. Draw your own parallels, this post is long enough as it is.

The most frequent response to Democratic leaning arguments usually mentions F911 or Moore. That does not make one's argument any less valid. Especially if the one making the response hasn't seen it himself.

America - Love it or Leave it, that's what its come down to. There are all these false dichotomies that have been laid down in front of us. Invade Iraq or we'll be killed by WMDs. Give up freedoms or else the terrorists win. You have to agree with the government or you are unpatriotic.

You have to support the 'War on Terror' or else you are unpatriotic. Well, if you take it logically, when will terror end? When all the terrorists are dead? How many countries have terrorists, and why aren't we dealing with them? I haven't heard that answer from anyone, anywhere.

I have nothing against those who agree with Bush, but that saying about taking a walk in other people's shoes comes to mind. Will some individuals' opinions change if the War on Terror extends to pasty white cheapass gamers? I'm normally not pessimistic, but I foresee dark times ahead.
 
With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?[/quote]

I have, but I haven't seen the proof of Hussein being involved with any of those. Also the hostage beheadings and the hangings happened after we invaded Iraq, thus not qualified to be labelled reasons for the invasion.

EDIT'D to include all the points you mentioned.
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?[/quote]

But what do any of those have to do with going into Iraq? He asked about Saddam's acts, WMD's, things that have not been shown. 9/11 - I have not seen Iraq linked, hostage beheading - after we went into Iraq, american corpses - again, after we were already there. He wants to know why we're there in the first place.

Edit: Damnit, now I look like an idiot repeating things that were said a minute ago. Damn you slow servers!
 
[quote name='magilacudy'][quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?[/quote]

I have, but I haven't seen the proof of Hussein being involved with any of those. Also the hostage beheadings happened after we invaded Iraq, thus not qualified to be labelled a reason for the invasion.[/quote]

Iraq along with the entire middle east was responsible for 9/11. The terrorists on all 4 planes (Two in the WTC, one in the pentagon, and the last one that crashed in the field) had terrorists from every arab country.
 
Plus why did the Iraqis block the UN Weapons Inspectors from looking around if they had nothing to hide. I am willing to bet that that while they were distracted saddam his the WMDs in another arab nation.
 
First of all. We need to teach the arab world, you fly planes into our buildings, we are taking over one of your countries. I can't wait for the next terrorist attack against us so we can bomb the hell out of another country, hopefully syria or pakistan.

Plus why would you even care that we are at war when YOU don't have to fight it.

Also who did you vote for last election, Bush or Gore? Because no gamer in there right mind would vote for Gore.
 
Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?

OP asked about Saddam's acts, 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq or Saddam, 2nd two were post-Saddam. Though Saddam was one of the more brutal dictators, there are still many in the world of Saddam's caliber today. Why Saddam and not them? Why Iraq and not North Korea or Sudan? North Korea is a far more eminent threat to us than Iraq ever was, and Sudan is conducting ethnic cleansing and genocide right now, today.

It amazes me how many people either believe or perpetuate the myth that Saddam and Iraq were involved with 9/11.

Plus Saddam is the modern day hitler. He put his own people in paper shredders and Acid Baths

Again, there are worse dictators in the world today that are still in power. Saddam is a ruthless butcher and that is not in dispute. But that alone is not enough of a reason to invade Iraq, otherwise we would be in perpetual war with all the other countries and dictators that are worse.

Iraq along with the entire middle east was responsible for 9/11. The terrorists on all 4 planes (Two in the WTC, one in the pentagon, and the last one that crashed in the field) had terrorists from every arab country.

Thats a pretty scary generalization... Is Israel responsible too? Or Saudi Arabia, since most of the hijackers, and Bin Laden were Saudis? Why not invade everybody? Why did we single out Iraq then? How is Iraq more responsible than the others?

Plus why did the Iraqis block the UN Weapons Inspectors from looking around if they had nothing to hide. I am willing to bet that that while they were distracted saddam his the WMDs in another arab nation.

Yeah, I'm sure Saddam stashed away his WMD's in another country (Iran hates him for going to war with them, Kuwait and Turkey are our allies, we're friendly with Jordan, and Syria has agreed to surrender their weapons to us and to let the UN inspectors in.) He'd have an easier time hiding them on the moon. We've not found a single WMD, or even evidence that there were at one time WMD's. Not a shred. Don't you think that if he was smart enough to do that, then he'd manage to get himself out of the country and not be captured? Or let us kill his sons? If he ever had WMD's, what good are they to him if he's captured or dead? If he couldn't even leave Iraq, I have a hard time believing that he could have moved his weapons out.

First of all. We need to teach the arab world, you fly planes into our buildings, we are taking over one of your countries. I can't wait for the next terrorist attack against us so we can bomb the hell out of another country, hopefully syria or pakistan.

That is such an ignorant statement that I'm not even going to respond to it.

Plus why would you even care that we are at war when YOU don't have to fight it.

This one too, though we might have to fight it if they bring back the draft, or god forbid we want to join the military, or maybe some of us have friends in the military.
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']First of all. We need to teach the arab world, you fly planes into our buildings, we are taking over one of your countries.
Also who did you vote for last election, Bush or Gore? Because no gamer in there right mind would vote for Gore.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I tried to discuss reasonably but I can't help but laugh at that post. But honestly I feel sad for you.

Hmm... let's say, off the top of my head, a terrorist from Zaire was the one to attack us. By your rationale, we could attack a heretofore unrelated (except by geography) nation like Nigeria... to teach the African world a 'lesson'. But we don't want to 'racially profile' do we?

I can't wait for the next terrorist attack against us so we can bomb the hell out of another country, hopefully syria or pakistan.

In other words, what you're saying is all the Arabs are alike, you bomb one its like bombing another. Who cares if there's no reason for it. It's not our lives so who gives a shit. Kill 'them' all.

Nah, of course you're not an idiotic bigot.

Plus why would you even care that we are at war when YOU don't have to fight it.

Because it's my and yours (unfortunately) rights, tax dollars, friends' (I have some that are over there serving right now) lives, and possibly ours assuming the draft were to take place.

Somehow I doubt you would be in it though, for many reasons. Also, I do take it personally when someone says they want to bomb my family (no I am not middle eastern, but I have family that lives there, as well in other countries where Dubya could possibly send troops to next).

Also who did you vote for last election, Bush or Gore? Because no gamer in there right mind would vote for Gore.

I was for Gore actually. That is irrelevant to the argument, but then again your whole argument is irrelevant.
 
I want everyone to look up a country called "Liberia". It is an african nation that was founded by black slaves in the US who went back to africa after they outlawed slavery. Right now we are fighting a secret war to help them to rid themselves of there dictator leader named "Charles Taylor" I think his name is.

You have no idea how many wars we do fight. We fight many secret wars. If anyone listens to a band called System of a Down, they are very politically active, you would see this stuff goes on all the time.

There are many other arab nations than Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, and Israel. Saddam could have hidden the WMDs in any one of those nations. I bet you never heard of Uzbekistan or Tarjekistan (SP?) have you? Plus we aren't going after Saudi Arabia because that is were all the oil is.
 
[quote name='Dragonlordfrodo']There are many other arab nations than Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, and Israel. Saddam could have hidden the WMDs in any one of those nations. [/quote]

Last time I checked, Israel wasn't an arab nation.

And when exactly could the stuff have been hidden?

"Quick guys, the U.S. invaded, we gotta move the factory and the nuclear reactor a few hundred miles northwest! Call the Israeli army, see if they can spare a few thousand trucks!"
 
Well you still didn't answer my question. Why didn't saddam not allow the the inspectors to do their job?

Also what about the 9/11 painting in saddam's palace??
 
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