Man kills two robbers attempting to rob a neighbor's home
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Veritas1204
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Pitt,
you were so meticulous as to pick only certain points from my post, and not address others, so I will re-iterate for your viewing pleasure.
Do you, or do you not agree that, the "victims" (I wish I knew the puking face animation you posted, because that's what I almost did on my keyboard when you called these criminals victims) here put their lives in danger by committing a property crime, in a state known for it's love of lethal self-defense?
You can sit here and argue all you want that Mr. Horn was wrong, and I would probably agree with half of your points. And I could definately see the gray area you mentioned with the actual shooting.
My main problem with this idea that "possessions aren't worth dying for" is that you are aiming it at the wrong set of people; telling an innocent guy who is looking out for his neighbor's property to have some restraint because some
ing degenerate thugs decided to take things that didn't belong to them is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider that not one of you taking the opposing stance will even mention that maybe it's the criminals fault for getting themselves into the situation in the first place.
On another note, are you really pulling out the race card goku? Do you honestly think that if these guys were white, that Mr. Horn would have shouted " hey, y'all wanna head to tha tittie bar?" instead of "you move, you're dead?"
Give me aing break.
I'll finish this post with a little research I conducted on the gun control question you posed yesterday pitt. Here it is:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
(Statistics court esy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.)
Now think about this:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
(Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
(Statistics courtesy of FBI)
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR
you were so meticulous as to pick only certain points from my post, and not address others, so I will re-iterate for your viewing pleasure.
Do you, or do you not agree that, the "victims" (I wish I knew the puking face animation you posted, because that's what I almost did on my keyboard when you called these criminals victims) here put their lives in danger by committing a property crime, in a state known for it's love of lethal self-defense?
You can sit here and argue all you want that Mr. Horn was wrong, and I would probably agree with half of your points. And I could definately see the gray area you mentioned with the actual shooting.
My main problem with this idea that "possessions aren't worth dying for" is that you are aiming it at the wrong set of people; telling an innocent guy who is looking out for his neighbor's property to have some restraint because some
ing degenerate thugs decided to take things that didn't belong to them is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider that not one of you taking the opposing stance will even mention that maybe it's the criminals fault for getting themselves into the situation in the first place.On another note, are you really pulling out the race card goku? Do you honestly think that if these guys were white, that Mr. Horn would have shouted " hey, y'all wanna head to tha tittie bar?" instead of "you move, you're dead?"
Give me a
ing break.I'll finish this post with a little research I conducted on the gun control question you posed yesterday pitt. Here it is:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
(Statistics court esy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.)
Now think about this:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
(Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.
(Statistics courtesy of FBI)
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR
MarioColbert
CAGiversary!
Veritas:
Link for Physician-related Deaths, please... I've ran several searches on the U.S. Dept of Health Human Services website, and was not able to verify that number. Further research has found the following document:
http://www.healthgrades.com/media/dms/pdf/PatientSafetyInAmericanHospitalsStudy2006.pdf
Its listing for the deaths is "83,000 potentially preventable deaths occurred each year," which isn't the same as "accidental deaths."
According to Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, 2002, about 7,000 people are estimated to die each year from medication errors - about 16 percent more deaths than the number attributable to work-related injuries (6,000 deaths).
Which once again re-creates the statistic as 0.058333 an estimated 6% versus your cited 17%.
Furthermore, I'd like to see the full study, since the statistic requires a formal definition, and "accidental deaths" may factor in deaths on the operating table which are not results of malpractice, yet "unplanned" all the same - opening up a human being, and operating on his/hers internal organs isn't half as simple as responsible and respectful use of a firearm.
Before you start attacking me - I'm asking for SOURCE, and sharing the evidence I've found. Observe the following:
Abstract From 1983 to 1998, U.S. fatalities from acknowledged prescription errors increased by 243%, from 2,876 to 9,856. (Source)
So yes, it's quite likely that you are correct. But your post resembles a partisan-fueled chain letter than a scientific (or even a pseudo-scientific) claim.
Regarding your Firearm claim, the number seems to be particularly low:
In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified.[31] Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a gun.[32]
Here's the best bit: this wasn't an accidental death - this was a dude shooting two motherers. As a supporter of the 2nd amendment I find your post to be irresponsible:
1. Gun Safety and responsible Firearm use should be encouraged and constantly put into the spotlight.
2. Posting questionable numbers causes two things: first, it gives 2nd amendment supporters a bad name, secondly, it presents a false image of "security" that guns entail which does not hold up against figures such as THIS.
3. You've completely ignored the main problem with any gun control argument, thus conceding the argument for the side opposing the 2nd amendment. Many criminals obtain firearms illegaly, and gun control laws won't only prevent them from obtaining weapons, but will also grant criminals additional power over the unarmed populace that is forbidden by law to protect themselves.
Notice, by the way, that the current case has nothing to do with gun control - it has to do with irresponsible behavior of a single individual. Any person abusing his right to own a firearm is harmful, and this does not compare to the infamous Texas Diner Massacre which paved the way towards the concealed handgun law passed by the governor George W. Bush as his first piece of legislature.
In case you've fogotten, by now... I STILL WANT A LINK TO VERIFY THE NUMBERS YOU'VE POSTED.
Link for Physician-related Deaths, please... I've ran several searches on the U.S. Dept of Health Human Services website, and was not able to verify that number. Further research has found the following document:
http://www.healthgrades.com/media/dms/pdf/PatientSafetyInAmericanHospitalsStudy2006.pdf
Its listing for the deaths is "83,000 potentially preventable deaths occurred each year," which isn't the same as "accidental deaths."
According to Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, 2002, about 7,000 people are estimated to die each year from medication errors - about 16 percent more deaths than the number attributable to work-related injuries (6,000 deaths).
Which once again re-creates the statistic as 0.058333 an estimated 6% versus your cited 17%.
Furthermore, I'd like to see the full study, since the statistic requires a formal definition, and "accidental deaths" may factor in deaths on the operating table which are not results of malpractice, yet "unplanned" all the same - opening up a human being, and operating on his/hers internal organs isn't half as simple as responsible and respectful use of a firearm.
Before you start attacking me - I'm asking for SOURCE, and sharing the evidence I've found. Observe the following:
Abstract From 1983 to 1998, U.S. fatalities from acknowledged prescription errors increased by 243%, from 2,876 to 9,856. (Source)
So yes, it's quite likely that you are correct. But your post resembles a partisan-fueled chain letter than a scientific (or even a pseudo-scientific) claim.
Regarding your Firearm claim, the number seems to be particularly low:
In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified.[31] Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a gun.[32]
Here's the best bit: this wasn't an accidental death - this was a dude shooting two mother
ers. As a supporter of the 2nd amendment I find your post to be irresponsible:1. Gun Safety and responsible Firearm use should be encouraged and constantly put into the spotlight.
2. Posting questionable numbers causes two things: first, it gives 2nd amendment supporters a bad name, secondly, it presents a false image of "security" that guns entail which does not hold up against figures such as THIS.
3. You've completely ignored the main problem with any gun control argument, thus conceding the argument for the side opposing the 2nd amendment. Many criminals obtain firearms illegaly, and gun control laws won't only prevent them from obtaining weapons, but will also grant criminals additional power over the unarmed populace that is forbidden by law to protect themselves.
Notice, by the way, that the current case has nothing to do with gun control - it has to do with irresponsible behavior of a single individual. Any person abusing his right to own a firearm is harmful, and this does not compare to the infamous Texas Diner Massacre which paved the way towards the concealed handgun law passed by the governor George W. Bush as his first piece of legislature.
In case you've fogotten, by now... I STILL WANT A LINK TO VERIFY THE NUMBERS YOU'VE POSTED.
[quote name='Veritas1204']Pitt,
you were so meticulous as to pick only certain points from my post, and not address others, so I will re-iterate for your viewing pleasure.
Do you, or do you not agree that, the "victims" (I wish I knew the puking face animation you posted, because that's what I almost did on my keyboard when you called these criminals victims) here put their lives in danger by committing a property crime, in a state known for it's love of lethal self-defense?
You can sit here and argue all you want that Mr. Horn was wrong, and I would probably agree with half of your points. And I could definately see the gray area you mentioned with the actual shooting.
My main problem with this idea that "possessions aren't worth dying for" is that you are aiming it at the wrong set of people; telling an innocent guy who is looking out for his neighbor's property to have some restraint because someing degenerate thugs decided to take things that didn't belong to them is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider that not one of you taking the opposing stance will even mention that maybe it's the criminals fault for getting themselves into the situation in the first place.
On another note, are you really pulling out the race card goku? Do you honestly think that if these guys were white, that Mr. Horn would have shouted " hey, y'all wanna head to tha tittie bar?" instead of "you move, you're dead?"
Give me aing break.[/QUOTE]
Hey dumb, make up your mind on who you're siding with. You're like those idiots that can't choose the good or bad side. And you're ing retarded if you think race isn't a factor. Its easier to kill someone thats not the same race as you. If you really think people aren't racist, you're living in the wrong World.
you were so meticulous as to pick only certain points from my post, and not address others, so I will re-iterate for your viewing pleasure.
Do you, or do you not agree that, the "victims" (I wish I knew the puking face animation you posted, because that's what I almost did on my keyboard when you called these criminals victims) here put their lives in danger by committing a property crime, in a state known for it's love of lethal self-defense?
You can sit here and argue all you want that Mr. Horn was wrong, and I would probably agree with half of your points. And I could definately see the gray area you mentioned with the actual shooting.
My main problem with this idea that "possessions aren't worth dying for" is that you are aiming it at the wrong set of people; telling an innocent guy who is looking out for his neighbor's property to have some restraint because some
ing degenerate thugs decided to take things that didn't belong to them is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider that not one of you taking the opposing stance will even mention that maybe it's the criminals fault for getting themselves into the situation in the first place.On another note, are you really pulling out the race card goku? Do you honestly think that if these guys were white, that Mr. Horn would have shouted " hey, y'all wanna head to tha tittie bar?" instead of "you move, you're dead?"
Give me a
ing break.[/QUOTE]Hey dumb
, make up your mind on who you're siding with. You're like those idiots that can't choose the good or bad side. And you're ing retarded if you think race isn't a factor. Its easier to kill someone thats not the same race as you. If you really think people aren't racist, you're living in the wrong World.
MarioColbert
CAGiversary!
[quote name='gokou36']Hey dumb, make up your mind on who you're siding with. You're like those idiots that can't choose the good or bad side. And you're ing retarded if you think race isn't a factor. Its easier to kill someone thats not the same race as you. If you really think people aren't racist, you're living in the wrong World.[/quote]
1. Please be more civil in your argumentation. Whle the "vs. mode" forums are certainly created to keep heated debates away from happy places, it's generally a bad idea to start your post with "hey dumb."
2. Would you mind citing a source for the statement that it is easier to kill someone that is not the same race as you? Race is most certainly a part of this dicussion, since (as I have stated previously) the problem with vigilante justice is that it is by definition NOT BLIND. (Please don't mistake the contrapositive of this statement as true - U.S. Judicial System is not blind by any reasonable standard, but the expectation of the ideal is necessary, and the checks & balances are by design better, if only in theory, to a "superhero taking care of criminals in our Gotham).
, make up your mind on who you're siding with. You're like those idiots that can't choose the good or bad side. And you're ing retarded if you think race isn't a factor. Its easier to kill someone thats not the same race as you. If you really think people aren't racist, you're living in the wrong World.[/quote] 1. Please be more civil in your argumentation. Whle the "vs. mode" forums are certainly created to keep heated debates away from happy places, it's generally a bad idea to start your post with "hey dumb
."2. Would you mind citing a source for the statement that it is easier to kill someone that is not the same race as you? Race is most certainly a part of this dicussion, since (as I have stated previously) the problem with vigilante justice is that it is by definition NOT BLIND. (Please don't mistake the contrapositive of this statement as true - U.S. Judicial System is not blind by any reasonable standard, but the expectation of the ideal is necessary, and the checks & balances are by design better, if only in theory, to a "superhero taking care of criminals in our Gotham).
soulvengeance
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[quote name='gokou36'] Its easier to kill someone thats not the same race as you.[/QUOTE]
Ummmm, what? You would have an easier time killing (name race of your choice) then your own race? I believe racism is alive and well, but I don't think that was the deciding factor in this case.
Ummmm, what? You would have an easier time killing (name race of your choice) then your own race? I believe racism is alive and well, but I don't think that was the deciding factor in this case.
pittpizza
CAGiversary!
Nobody said it was the determining factor. All we (I) said was that it was more likely a factor than not. Was the biggest reason he murdered them the fact they were burglarizing his neighbor? Yes. Did the fact that they were minorities make Joe "I'm gonna kill em" Horn's trigger finger slighty itchier? Probably. Sure, it's an assumption but one based on Horn's actions and words (not his location or skin color) and one that's probably true nontheless.
Either way this race thing is, at most, a tangential issue.
People keep asking me if I agree that these guys assumed the risk of death when they burglarized a home. My answer is Yes, but that in no way justifies the murders.
As to the other pseudo off topic gun control 2nd A. debate, let me ask you Veritas. As a cop, would you prefer the general populas to be less armed or more armed? Which would you rather handle, a domestic dispute involving fists or a domestic dispute invovling guns?
Either way this race thing is, at most, a tangential issue.
People keep asking me if I agree that these guys assumed the risk of death when they burglarized a home. My answer is Yes, but that in no way justifies the murders.
As to the other pseudo off topic gun control 2nd A. debate, let me ask you Veritas. As a cop, would you prefer the general populas to be less armed or more armed? Which would you rather handle, a domestic dispute involving fists or a domestic dispute invovling guns?
MarioColbert
CAGiversary!
...still waiting on those links...
So, pitt, how's the weather as of late?
So, pitt, how's the weather as of late?
pittpizza
CAGiversary!
The weather? I'm not really sure what you're getting at here but if I'm not missing the sarcasm then, its a typical December day in Pittsburgh: about 30 degrees and overcast. I don't mind the cold though (big big snowboarder) and like it when its cold so the resorts around here can make artificial snow when mother nature isn't helping us out with the natural fluff.
Goku, I'm on your side and (you won't hear me say this often so take notice) even I think you're a little too combative & agressive. Yeah, hard to beleive I know since I am one of the more combative/agressive CAGers.
I'll issue a general apology now: If in this thread, or others, I've offended you, or called you stupid or flamed you in some other way, I'm sorry. I have strong views on things (especially civil rights and liberties) so it pisses me off when other's dont have the same appreciation for things I consider so fundamental to a western democracy. I can be opinionated and nasty sometimes so try not to take things too personally.
HOnestly though, int. msg. bds and CAG in particular is no place for the easily offended or feint of heart. This is especially true for the vs. forum (where I "hang out" mostly).
Goku, I'm on your side and (you won't hear me say this often so take notice) even I think you're a little too combative & agressive. Yeah, hard to beleive I know since I am one of the more combative/agressive CAGers.
I'll issue a general apology now: If in this thread, or others, I've offended you, or called you stupid or flamed you in some other way, I'm sorry. I have strong views on things (especially civil rights and liberties) so it pisses me off when other's dont have the same appreciation for things I consider so fundamental to a western democracy. I can be opinionated and nasty sometimes so try not to take things too personally.
HOnestly though, int. msg. bds and CAG in particular is no place for the easily offended or feint of heart. This is especially true for the vs. forum (where I "hang out" mostly).
bread's done