Morality...

[quote name='Kayden']

I really think you're missing his point.

They aren't selling Shakespeare as their work for $40 a book. They are making money from his work, but they are not making cheap knock offs or gouging prices or stealing his work. The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.
To compare this to games...

CAG could get together and start copying old PSX games. We'd sell them for like $5 to cover disks, other materials, time, effort, etc. We wouldn't be saying we made Parasite Eve 2, we'd just be offering a copy of it... ofcourse, this would require Squeenix to be dead for about 1000 years... :roll:[/quote]

I don't even remember where WS came in, but his main argument seemed to be 'he's dead, no one's profiting off his work' which isabsolutely not true. Probably not a whole lot of profit, but there is profit., that would not be realized if they weren't selling Shakespeare [or a version therof.]
 
I'll say again that this topic has been a real treat in terms of discussion. There has been so little name calling or "sinking down" in 100 posts, which is pretty cool.

I have a question for dt:

I forget the name of it, but there was a fighting game for the Neo Geo that recently sold for over %$10,000 on eBay. I think they literally only made 5 or so copies. I think it might have been Kizuna Encounter.

Now, i'm not talking about legality. But would YOU personally consider it morally reasonable to "pirate" this game for your own home use?
 
[quote name='dtcarson']They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content.[/quote]

No, you buy it because you want a handy dandy pocket version of it to carry around or you want a copy for your shelf. Therefore, you are buying their service.

The content itself is free, both to the company publishing it and to you (if you so choose instead of buying that copy).

[quote name='dtcarson']
And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.[/quote]

I never said it did. I said it was a more important issue and I bought it up because I get sick of people talking about ownership, profit, and the joys of capitalism without understanding the larger issues.

As far as piracy goes, of course its illegal as long as the copyright is still active. What we need to do is regulate those copyrights better.

Moral? Thats a matter of opinion.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Survivor Charlie']I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. [/quote]

Good for you. [serious, not sarcastic].

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .[/quote]

I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']IAnd I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.[/quote]

MAME, though big on the internet, I believe has a much smaller active fanbase than the potential audience for those games-in-a-controller sets, or the anthology disks. I would be interested in seeing relative numbers on sales/downloads of each, and if the userbases bisected or not.[/quote]

As does pirating in general!

How many people know how to solder? Circumvent copy protection? Override hardware checks? Not much of the general population can do that. It takes a lot of effort to learn, and even after you know what you're doing, it's still easier to just fork out if its reasonably available.

Don't give me the crap about reasonable being an issue of point of view. I think we can all agree that $200 is rediculous for a single game.

Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really fucking love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.
 
I dont see why people care this much either way. If I copy a game I dont care what people say since they arent going to stop me anyway. And if I pay $200 for a game I dont care either cause nobody gave me a better deal. So I wish people would stop all the whinning.
 
Unreasonable for you, perhaps. [Me too, I wouldn't pay a grand for a toaster.]
Who really needs a 5000-square-foot house that costs 675k? Certainly not an unmarried couple with no kids and no close family. Yet my coworker, in that precise situation, bought that exact house. Obviously she thought it was reasonable.
There are lots of 500k+ plus houses. There are also lots of 85-200k houses for those of us [me] who don't want nor can't afford that manse.
Reasonable-ness of cost is left to the invididual consumer. But that *does not excuse* piracy. They are two different issues. it's as wrong to pirate a 5 -buck game as it as a 10k game.
200 bucks--How much was Steel Battalion? Didn't the 3D0 sell for 700 bucks when it was first released?

Hereticked--I am buying their service, but i wouldn't buy it if it wasn't Shakespeare. Therefore, at least for my sale, I am buying Shakespeare.

evilmax: 10k game. Morally 'reasonable?' No. Tempting? If i liked the fighting genre, perhaps. It would be cool to have, certainly, even a burned copy. But I would still admit it was 'wrong.'
That rarity is part of why that game was 'worth' 10k for someone.

Oh, i agree, piracy is a pain in the ass to actually do. But again, that doesn't excuse it. Don't get bogged down in details. Very few people murder, but murder is still wrong.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']
That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'[/quote]

I didn't start most of those reasons, I just argued on behalf of them. As for wanting all the games I can get... thats not why I copy a game. If I want a game and I can find it B&M or online for a good price (what I believe it to be worth) then I BUY it. Don't get me wrong, I love my Suikoden II... but I sure as hell would never pay anything over $100 for it. Also, I don't want to pay 100 for Valkyrie Profile... So I copied that. Thats not like saying if I want a BMW that retailed for $40K, but now goes for 60k and I cant afford $60k I should steal one. It sounds similar, but there are many makes and models of BMWs... all in all, I'd wind up driving my $1k 1993 Lumina. Conversely... its like wanting Suikoden II... but then getting Legend of Dragoon because I can afford it... LoD is... *shiver* horrible... it's... just not the same.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Hereticked--I am buying their service, but i wouldn't buy it if it wasn't Shakespeare. Therefore, at least for my sale, I am buying Shakespeare.[/quote]

Nope.

The reason you're buying the service does not = what you are actually buying. The fact remains that you're paying for the service, not the content.

Since it is now part of the commons, the content is free for everyone. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be able to sell you a little copy of it for 4.99 and make a 50 cent profit on paper and ink.


[quote name='Kayden']I really think you're missing his point.

The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.[/quote]

He'll get it eventually. :p
 
[quote name='Kayden']Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really shaq-fuing love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.[/quote]

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.

If you put all that time and effort on whining into a 2nd job, you would have made enough money to buy yourself a copy of high-priced Suikoden II by now. :wink:
 
[quote name='cheapass Gundam'][quote name='Kayden']Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really shaq-fuing love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.[/quote]

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.

If you put all that time and effort on whining into a 2nd job, you would have made enough money to buy yourself a copy of high-priced Suikoden II by now. :wink:[/quote]

But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....
 
I think I understand dt's point of view now. It doesn't matter if piracy affects a great number of people, or even anybody at all. It's that the inherent action or pirating is wrong, and that even if it doesn't have any consequences, it's still wrong.

Not that I agree with it, but I think I get where you're coming from.
 
Now, no one ever said doing the 'right' thing was cheap...
Click to expand...

I didn't mean Buy-Rite is expensive. I mean they take your money and don't send you anything. For every good experience with them there are hundreds who have said they are terrible. Check the BBB rating on them. It's awful.

Just out of curiousity, why do YOU think that is? Why would MAT and NC still do well despite MAME, but that principle wouldn't apply to old (or hell, even current) console games?
Click to expand...

Well, I think people like authetic releases. I play MAME, and have full ROM sets for it, but I also own MAT, Namco Museum, Atari Anthology, etc... personally I don't like playing games with my face a foot away from the monitor. There are also issues with authenticty that i think many gamers care about, and hence the brisk sales of MAT and the likes. It's hard to get a good game of Rampart going a maximum two feet away from a PC. It's much easier on a television, using wavebirds. That's just my opinion. I love having games like Tron or Burger Time on my PC, but if someone released them for a console I would snap them up. I always do.

The difference between emulating Atari, NES, Arcade machines, and other classic systems and coping PS2 and X-Box is really simple. When you buy a brand new game for the PS2, sony makes money off of it. The company that made it makes money. On the other hand, bidding and winning a $500 copy of Stadium Events for the NES nets Nintendo and Bandai a whopping $0.00. If the company that made it makes no money, is buying used games too taboo? Of course not.

If a person makes a bootleg copy of Grand Theft Auto 3, then I would consider that taking it too far. The game is still profitable, the company still makes royalties off of it, and it's avaible nationwide in any store. You can't walk into a Target and buy an arcade deck of Tron, or a famicom game. That's the difference, and it's just my opinion.

Survivor Charlie wrote:
ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .


I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'
Click to expand...

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.
 
[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']
That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'[/quote]

I didn't start most of those reasons, I just argued on behalf of them. As for wanting all the games I can get... thats not why I copy a game. If I want a game and I can find it B&M or online for a good price (what I believe it to be worth) then I BUY it. Don't get me wrong, I love my Suikoden II... but I sure as hell would never pay anything over $100 for it. Also, I don't want to pay 100 for Valkyrie Profile... So I copied that. Thats not like saying if I want a BMW that retailed for $40K, but now goes for 60k and I cant afford $60k I should steal one. It sounds similar, but there are many makes and models of BMWs... all in all, I'd wind up driving my $1k 1993 Lumina. Conversely... its like wanting Suikoden II... but then getting Legend of Dragoon because I can afford it... LoD is... *shiver* horrible... it's... just not the same.[/quote]

If you copied Valkyrie Profile and are asking us after the fact whether it was wrong, I think you already know the answer and are trying to get others to let you off the hook. No absolution here, bud. You were flat out wrong. This wasn't the formula for a life-saving drug, this was a friggin' toy and you threw a tantrum because it was out of your reach.

If a product acquires an unacceptably high price due to limited supply but its originator could easily increase the supply for the original or lower price, there is only one correct course of action. You must appeal to the owner of the IP to produce more of the product, using the exhorbitant resale value of the item as evidence that this would be worthwhile investment for the IP owner. This has in fact happened in Japan where a new release of Valkyrie Profile is in the works.

Numerous games long out of print have been revivied or remade on newer systems. Dragon Force from the Saturn is also making a comeback in an upgraded form. Apparently some people are more honest and made their desires known to IP owners rather than behaving like grabby children.
 
[quote name='cheapass Gundam']

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.
[/quote]

Or the aftermarket will work in the opposite direction. You'll see 1000$ toasters going for 40 bucks on Ebay. Anyone ever bought a Rainbow vacuum? They want like 1000-2000 if you buy them new. They're on Ebay for hundreds less.

Oh, and we already have the Gates toaster:
http://www.i4u.com/article2731.html
1.1 million yen.

evilmax17: That is exactly it. I believe taking something that's not yours, without paying for it, is wrong, be that stealing a car, pickpocketing a wallet, or pirating a game. Everything else in this thread has struck me as 'Well, yeah, but....' excuses and rationalizations. The original question was, 'Do you believe it's moral to pirate games?' My answer: No.

Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding, if htey weren't interested in the content. I like DVD's but I don't buy every dvd solely because of the format, I buy them for the content.
And actually, according to Ian Lancashire
Department of English, "the 1623 and three later folio editions, and all the quarto versions, of Shakespeare's plays and poems are still not available in un-copy-protected electronic texts on the network....hakespeare's works, altered silently or emended on explicit grounds, may be obtained commercially or freely in electronic form, but not the originals from which every one of these editions must flow. Trevor Howard-Hill's old-spelling versions in the Oxford Text Archive come closest to these originals, but a charge is still made for them, their copyright status is unclear, and they do not render the typography of the originals"
 
[quote name='Kayden']But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....[/quote]

:applause: What are you here complaining about?! Put it on eBay and reap the profits already! Unless you question whether it's the right thing to do so after burning a copy for yourself...
 
Oh damn... and I was so hoping youd forgive me and pardon all my other sins while you were at it...
Get over yourself, please. I have better things to do than seek approval. I was merely wondering what all of you think. Truth be told, I wasn't even thinking about my VP until the middle of the thread. I started this because I just thought of it while looking at the $200 game thread.

'Right' or 'wrong' I really don't care whether any of you deem it appropriet.

I know its illegal, such a horrible crime too... copying a game the creator doesn't even sell anymore... I'd like to think our government has better things to do rather than hastle nostolgic gamers... Like pedos... or compnanies that incorporate outside the US to get tax breaks...

[quote name='epobirs']
If you copied Valkyrie Profile and are asking us after the fact whether it was wrong, I think you already know the answer and are trying to get others to let you off the hook. No absolution here, bud. You were flat out wrong. This wasn't the formula for a life-saving drug, this was a friggin' toy and you threw a tantrum because it was out of your reach.

If a product acquires an unacceptably high price due to limited supply but its originator could easily increase the supply for the original or lower price, there is only one correct course of action. You must appeal to the owner of the IP to produce more of the product, using the exhorbitant resale value of the item as evidence that this would be worthwhile investment for the IP owner. This has in fact happened in Japan where a new release of Valkyrie Profile is in the works.

Numerous games long out of print have been revivied or remade on newer systems. Dragon Force from the Saturn is also making a comeback in an upgraded form. Apparently some people are more honest and made their desires known to IP owners rather than behaving like grabby children.[/quote]
 
[quote name='cheapass Gundam'][quote name='Kayden']But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....[/quote]

:applause: What are you here complaining about?! Put it on eBay and reap the profits already! Unless you question whether it's the right thing to do so after burning a copy for yourself...[/quote]

No.... I love my Suikoden II... I'd put my first born on ebay first... probably get more too...
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.[/quote]

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding[/quote]

You're paying for the service.... THE LABOR. Not just the binding.

The content is the reason you're buying it but not what you are actually paying for because the content is free to everyone.


Comparing it to DVDs is just silly because the copyrights on those DVDs haven't expired and thats the very essence of what we're discussing.
 
I've never really cared about people copying old games, what I do care is that people keep that shit off the site. CAG is supported financially through affiliates like EB and GS, having topics and discussions on burning and copying may give them the wrong impression about this site and cause the affiliation to be terminated.
 
dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I've never really cared about people copying old games, what I do care is that people keep that shit off the site. CAG is supported financially through affiliates like EB and GS, having topics and discussions on burning and copying may give them the wrong impression about this site and cause the affiliation to be terminated.[/quote]

:roll:

And the dozens of topics about how "EB is the devil for selling used games as new" or "Gamestop employees are the dumbest people on the planet" aren't? It's just a philosophical discussion, and not talking about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Don't worry about it.
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='dtcarson']Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding[/quote]

You're paying for the service.... THE LABOR. Not just the binding.

The content is the reason you're buying it but not what you are actually paying for because the content is free to everyone.


Comparing it to DVDs is just silly because the copyrights on those DVDs haven't expired and thats the very essence of what we're discussing.[/quote]

No it's not.
"where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? "
is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.

The content is the reason I'm buying it. Yes. Thus, if that publisher didn't offer that content, *regardless how much, if anything, it cost them to get it*, I wouldn't buy from them. I wouldn't buy a blank book from them, no matter how hard they worked or how nice the binding was.
 
It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Survivor Charlie']

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.[/quote]

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.[/quote]

I really dont like the evolution conotation... I'd say moral elevation. I have morals, and I don't consider copying a game that is for the most part abbandoned against them.

I'm not trying to justify me copying a game, I'm giving you the reason I did it. I don't care if you deem it justifiable.

As for the corporate loopholes... crap like that is only instituted for the rich... Middle/lower class people try that and the IRS will nail their asses to the wall for tax evasion.

I know this is going to sound 'everyone's doing it' but why the hell should II care about who I potentially screw over? Thats what this country is all about. Half of this country would kick their mother for a dollar... the other half already has. Corporate involvement in government... corruption... I could bitch about this for hours... but thats a different thread all together.
 
is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.
Click to expand...

Then you are against the use of the VCR. It's no different. Those copies of Sex in the City you taped off of TV are bootlegs. Your cheap ass could have bought the DVD. You took the money out of HBO's hands.

There is no way to not be hypocritical in this discussion. If you've ever used a VCR to tape anything but home movies shot with a camcorder, you've done the same thing anyone who copies a Playstation game for personal use has done. Would I personally copy a Playstation game? No, I would want the real game with the real book and real instructions, like anyother game on any system. I do my best (check my collection) but I'm only one man with a limited amount of money. I'm not going to get all holier then thou like you're acting.

I don't like the idea of bootlegging games that came out in this decade. I don't use emulation for any US released games, with the exception of MAME. Do I think it's wrong to bootleg Playstation games? Yes, to a certain degree. But I'm not going to act self-rightous over it. I'm no better then anyone else here.

People are cheap. It's in their nature. If a person makes bootleg PS games for personal use only, then let them live with it. Don't act like you're better then them. If you've ever taped a show off of TV, you're a hypocrite for acting self-rightous over someone else coping a Playstation game. Ever snuck into a movie? Hypocrite. Ever copied the text off a website onto an internet message board? Hypocrite. Ever watched a video tape copied off of TV? Hypocrite.

Bootlegs hurt the industry, but selling bootlegs is worse. And last I checked, this thread isn't about selling bootlegs.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.[/quote]

I certainly have used those things. Napster went to hell long ago, however. And I admit now, and did then, dl'ing things from Napster was illegal and immoral.

However, I love my DVR. It's certainly legal to use, as long as I don't recopy, manipulate, sell, etc.

"Technically it is legal for you to posses a copy of a TV program for non-commercial use as long as you paid for the medium that supplied it. "

"PVR companies are basing business plans on the Supreme Court Betamax case that allowed consumers to tape TV product for their private use"

And moral as well, I own [or lease] the media it's on [the DVR and thecable pipe], so I can watch it when I want.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']
is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.
Click to expand...

Then you are against the use of the VCR. It's no different. Those copies of Sex in the City you taped off of TV are bootlegs. Your cheap ass could have bought the DVD. You took the money out of HBO's hands.

There is no way to not be hypocritical in this discussion. If you've ever used a VCR to tape anything but home movies shot with a camcorder, you've done the same thing anyone who copies a Playstation game for personal use has done. Would I personally copy a Playstation game? No, I would want the real game with the real book and real instructions, like anyother game on any system. I do my best (check my collection) but I'm only one man with a limited amount of money. I'm not going to get all holier then thou like you're acting.

I don't like the idea of bootlegging games that came out in this decade. I don't use emulation for any US released games, with the exception of MAME. Do I think it's wrong to bootleg Playstation games? Yes, to a certain degree. Am I going to act like you, a self-rightous asshole? No. I'm no better or worse then anyone here.[/quote]

Hey, I can degrade too.
fuck off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'

And I don't watch Sex and the City.
 
If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.

[quote name='epobirs']It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.[/quote]
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.[/quote]

No, the Supreme Court ruled on this a long time ago. Time shifting of broadcast TV does not constitute piracy. You end up recordingt he commercials along with the show. It has absolutely no releation to the blatant taking of copyrighted material done on filesharing networks.

The reason broadcasters are vexed by TiVo isn't the time shifting aspect but rather the ease of skipping commericals, which is their revenue channel. My RePlayTV makes it even easier, skipping commercial automatically with fairly good accuracy. How broadcasters will evolve to deal with the growing popularity of DVRs is a story in progress. It is one of the reasons VOD has become so important to them.

Emulation does not resemble timeshifting in the least. If you have not purchased an embodiment of the software authorized by the IP owner you have zero right to use the software. No purchase, no license. It doesn't have to be a purchase directly from the publisher or their retailers but it has to be a disc or cart that was produced for that purpose.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']
Hey, I can degrade too.
shaq-fu off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'[/quote]


Hey... I said no such thing... I said I'm too cheap to BUY the legit copy... I'm plenty able to look =)

I'm not blaming the ebay bastards. I'd probably like to get every penny I could too... I'm poor. What I did say was that I am not willing to submit to THEIR outrageous pricing. :p

I'm bad, I'm cheap, what ever. I buy the games I like, and I don't feel bad about copying a game I might want to test it. If companies would actually finish games once in a while the customer wouldn't need to be so aprehensive... again, another issue.
 
[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Survivor Charlie']

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.[/quote]

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.[/quote]

I really dont like the evolution conotation... I'd say moral elevation. I have morals, and I don't consider copying a game that is for the most part abbandoned against them.

I'm not trying to justify me copying a game, I'm giving you the reason I did it. I don't care if you deem it justifiable.

As for the corporate loopholes... crap like that is only instituted for the rich... Middle/lower class people try that and the IRS will nail their asses to the wall for tax evasion.

I know this is going to sound 'everyone's doing it' but why the hell should II care about who I potentially screw over? Thats what this country is all about. Half of this country would kick their mother for a dollar... the other half already has. Corporate involvement in government... corruption... I could bitch about this for hours... but thats a different thread all together.[/quote]

I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s
 
I hate people like you dtcarson. You act so much holier then everyone else. When you do something that is wrong, it was an 'honest mistake' or "I was young" or "I was a bad person at the time" or "that is DIFFERENT" or "that was a long time ago".

No, it's not. You're a hypocrite. He copied a Playstation game? Well you used Napster at least once. It's the same exact thing. I'm glad you admit to it. Next all you have to do is admit that you're not better then anyone else and you will be on the right track. Meanwhile, let me know when Discs of Tron comes out for a console or handheld. Meanwhile, I'll be playing it on MAME, surrounded by my game collection that has cost me over $1,000,000 to put together while I cry to myself about how I've robbed the game industry.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']"where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? "
is what we are discussing.[/quote]

No, that's what you're discussing. Not I.

I brought up a seperate issue, although it does have some relevance to the overall topic when you view things in the long term.

If you can't handle two different discussions then don't engage in more than one at a time.

[quote name='dtcarson']The content is the reason I'm buying it. Yes. Thus, if that publisher didn't offer that content, *regardless how much, if anything, it cost them to get it*, I wouldn't buy from them. I wouldn't buy a blank book from them, no matter how hard they worked or how nice the binding was.[/quote]

The product is not theres to sell. They don't own it. They are providing you a service which you are paying for. When you buy that 4.99 copy of Shakespeare they are profiting off their own labor and whatever deal they were able to work for the cost of materials. Since the source of their profit is not coming from the work itself, but by providing a handy version of something that is otherwise free, you cannot say that they are profiting from the work.

Well, you can, but it's logically inconsistent.


[quote name='dtcarson']Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.[/quote]

The only thing you've shown us in this thread (from that statement in particular) is that some people like to paint questions of morality in pure black and white.

"True" and "false" are absolutes, "right" and "wrong" are not.

Sorry, life's not that simple.
 
All this money put into videogames... how many of us would be well off had we put that money into savings/mutual funds... I know I would have at least 2-300K not taking into account compounding interest. Thats alot of F'ing money on plastic, electronics, and time spent on simple enjoyment.
 
Actually... NO.
I'm not good to avoid punishment... that my view of a lot of society... but the things I do, I do because I believe in them. If heaven does exist I'd like to think I'd be judged more by the way I treated others fairly and respectfully, rather than the way I tried to save a few bills on a game by copying it when it was OOP for 10 years... Sorry, just because its legally wrong, I don't find anything morally wrong with it. If the President of Working Designs handed me a copy of Lunar I'd pay $100 to support their awesome work. However, I will not pay $200 to some ebayer looking to turn a quick profit.
~trimmed~
[quote name='dtcarson']
I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s[/quote]
 
[quote name='fragmanslayer']All this money put into videogames... how many of us would be well off had we put that money into savings/mutual funds... I know I would have at least 2-300K not taking into account compounding interest. Thats alot of F'ing money on plastic, electronics, and time spent on simple enjoyment.[/quote]

You only go around once... might as well have fun, eh? :beer: \:D/ :bouncy:
 
[quote name='Kayden']If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.

[quote name='epobirs']It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.[/quote][/quote]

Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.
 
[quote name='Kayden'][quote name='dtcarson']
Hey, I can degrade too.
shaq-fu off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'[/quote]


Hey... I said no such thing... I said I'm too cheap to BUY the legit copy... I'm plenty able to look =)

I'm not blaming the ebay bastards. I'd probably like to get every penny I could too... I'm poor. What I did say was that I am not willing to submit to THEIR outrageous pricing. :p

I'm bad, I'm cheap, what ever. I buy the games I like, and I don't feel bad about copying a game I might want to test it. If companies would actually finish games once in a while the customer wouldn't need to be so aprehensive... again, another issue.[/quote]

Fine. That's the first honest post from a pirate I've seen in this thread. While I won't pirate even if I can't afford the game, I can 'understand' that thinking while not condoning it.

Saying I did something that was wrong, and admitting it was wrong, makes me a holier-than-thou hypocrite? Wow, I thought that made me honest. And I have been discussing the basic question, not attacking any single person or calling names until I was attacked.

How can you say it's irrelevant what they are selling? If I'm buying Shakespeare, what they are selling is the MOST relevant thing in the world They will make no sales if they don't sell what people are willing to buy.

There are some absolutes in right and wrong. Like I said earlier, slavery, child molestation, stealing, murder. Are wrong. Sometimes they're the *least* wrong of possible choices, but they're still wrong. There is room for debate on many issues, but there are still some absolutes.

Why will you not pay 200 on Ebay? Is it because its 200, or because its Ebay? Would you pay 100 direct from Vic, or 75 on Ebay?
 
[quote name='Kayden']Actually... NO.
I'm not good to avoid punishment... that my view of a lot of society... but the things I do, I do because I believe in them. If heaven does exist I'd like to think I'd be judged more by the way I treated others fairly and respectfully, rather than the way I tried to save a few bills on a game by copying it when it was OOP for 10 years... Sorry, just because its legally wrong, I don't find anything morally wrong with it. If the President of Working Designs handed me a copy of Lunar I'd pay $100 to support their awesome work. However, I will not pay $200 to some ebayer looking to turn a quick profit.
~trimmed~
[quote name='dtcarson']
I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s[/quote][/quote]

The question remains, why didn't you just buy the thing at reatil when it was readily available for a much lower price? I wouldn't give Vic Ireland a penny over the SRP he originally set for the product.
 
I personally thought Rhapsody was a pretty light, cute, fun game. Not FFT-level, but worth a rental. Had I known the demand would have skyrocketed, I would have bought it [hindsight is 20/20, they say[].
 
[quote name='epobirs'][quote name='Kayden']If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.[/quote]

Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.[/quote]


Your argument is sound, but I hope you understand that you can be found equally (or more) repugnant for being so obsessed with "property" as anyone who makes an illegal copy of a videogame or movie.

Basing your morals on laws of property and finance is quite frankly..... mental illness, in my opinion.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I hate people like you dtcarson. You act so much holier then everyone else. When you do something that is wrong, it was an 'honest mistake' or "I was young" or "I was a bad person at the time" or "that is DIFFERENT" or "that was a long time ago".

No, it's not. You're a hypocrite. He copied a Playstation game? Well you used Napster at least once. It's the same exact thing. I'm glad you admit to it. Next all you have to do is admit that you're not better then anyone else and you will be on the right track. Meanwhile, let me know when Discs of Tron comes out for a console or handheld. Meanwhile, I'll be playing it on MAME, surrounded by my game collection that has cost me over $1,000,000 to put together while I cry to myself about how I've robbed the game industry.[/quote]

Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.
 
*yawn*.... Really... do you read at all? I didn't say it was legal. What I said is they are more or less bringing it upon themselves. I didn't say I'm Robin Hood. Also, I really don't see how you link paying inflated ebay prices to supporting the developer. Buying used games does nothing for the developer.

So... take a deep breath, calm down, extinguish your little flaming booties and actually read what I say.

I know, me bad, bad Kayden, bad! Copying games... intelectual property.. yadda yadda. I'm not saying I'm right, nor that its ok. I'm saying I wont pay $200 for a used game.

[quote name='epobirs']
Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.[/quote]
 
[quote name='dtcarson']
Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.[/quote]

That reminds me... Did I say that? I hope I did, because I want you all to know it! :lol:

As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?

Solid or not, epobirs's arguement is irrelavent, presumptuous and a tad offensive. Name calling and just a general badgering attitude. Also, no one said we were legally able to copy games... Hes on a tyraid whipping a dead horse about something we've already established. He's sitting in the corner screaming the sky is blue while we're trying to debate how hurricanes form.
 
Going by his logic then we should all be ashamed for looking for the best deal for a game, instead of buying every game at full price. We're taking food out of the companies' mouths by buying a game on sale. We're such assholes.

I own somewhere around 3,000 games. The total number of those that are bootlegged are this: 3. All NES multicarts that I bought from a pawn shop in Longview, WA. Those multicarts contain games that I already own. Am I morally wrong in your book for buying a pirated game that I already own the legit version of, for the sake of enhancing my game collection?

Or what if (and I'm not saying I've done this, because I haven't)... I buy a used copy of a PS game at a garage sale and it doesn't work. It's scratched to hell and it will never work. Would making a bootleg copy that works be morally wrong, considering that I bought a non-working version for $1.00 at a garage sale? You can't give a right or wrong answer to that. It's not black and white.
 
Actually, I can give a black and white answer to that.

I believe this is covered under the fair use act of *ahemsagrumble*
You are entitled to make any personal copies of items that you posses the original licensed copy of. Roms are perfectly legal, just as long as you own the licensed cart. As for the garagesale thing... should be covered. You have the disk, more power to ya.

And yes, we are all assholes. :lol: Just for widely varying reasons.

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']Going by his logic then we should all be ashamed for looking for the best deal for a game, instead of buying every game at full price. We're taking food out of the companies' mouths by buying a game on sale. We're such assholes.

I own somewhere around 3,000 games. The total number of those that are bootlegged are this: 3. All NES multicarts that I bought from a pawn shop in Longview, WA. Those multicarts contain games that I already own. Am I morally wrong in your book for buying a pirated game that I already own the legit version of, for the sake of enhancing my game collection?

Or what if (and I'm not saying I've done this, because I haven't)... I buy a used copy of a PS game at a garage sale and it doesn't work. It's scratched to hell and it will never work. Would making a bootleg copy that works be morally wrong, considering that I bought a non-working version for $1.00 at a garage sale? You can't give a right or wrong answer to that. It's not black and white.[/quote]
 
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