Next Xbox May or May Not Require Online/Allow Used Games (Update 4/25/13)

[quote name='cancerman1120']If by a couple of months you mean more than 6-9 then yes. Darksiders 2 has been out 6 months and it is still $50. That game has never been lower than $30 plus it has a season pass. It did not even sell that well either. So with a new system you are looking at $20 games most likely summer of 2014 at best.

It also assumes that with no used market that games will drop at the same rate which may not happen without competition.[/QUOTE]

I should have probably exempted the better selling titles, you're right. But Gamestop still bends you over on those too. Gamestop basically takes a few bucks off and counts on the customer wanting that extra Happy meal over a shrink wrapped game. This is after accepting a ridiculously low trade in. They don't do customers or developers any great favors.

The prices will get to whatever point they need to be, that's the market. If people supposedly will not have money for new games because of the nonexistent used market, then the games will have to adjust. You can't get blood out of a turnip. No one will miss used games when they're gone... people will look back one day and laugh this was ever an issue.
 
I'm fine with both Sony and MS using activation codes for new games, requiring Used game purchases to also pick up an activation code via the online store, as long as it is just there to activate the game once and then you can play offline. I just can't see them not using some sort of way to purchase another activation code via an online storefront for used games. Totally making Used games obsolete just doesn't make sense to me at all.

However, if they decide to us an always online policy I will be hard-pressed in my decision to purchase either next-gen console as I've had trouble with Final Fight: Double Impact in the past on the PS3 and of course Diablo 3 on the PC.
 
[quote name='waldo21212']Good luck playing any game that requires an always on connection in 10 years.[/QUOTE]

Good point. I guess buying to resell would have to be done within the generation or half-way through the next. Obviously all games go out of print so you could conceivably make a lot of money reselling games as most would be very limited in supply with used games worthless.

I'm not sure why people think the we're "defending Gamestop". I for one am NOT defending GS. I'm defending my right of first sale and the ability to recover some of my money on eBay.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Think about how much a mint condition but used Earthbound would be worth if the game was unplayable.[/QUOTE]


So long as the game itself is on the optical media, the items will retain value. Maybe not as much as they would otherwise, but they definitely won't be worth nothing.

Let's be honest, the DRM will be broken and considering that this move in general will be seen as a huge middle finger, the types of people working on reverse engineering it will likely handle it in record time.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Good point. I guess buying to resell would have to be done within the generation or half-way through the next. Obviously all games go out of print so you could conceivably make a lot of money reselling games as most would be very limited in supply with used games worthless.

I'm not sure why people think the we're "defending Gamestop". I for one am NOT defending GS. I'm defending my right of first sale and the ability to recover some of my money on eBay.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if all games are given digital versions (and why wouldn't they) things going out of print would only be a big deal to collectors or people with terrible internet.

And your right of first sale goes out the window if Sony/MS has their lawyers specify that what you're buying is a non-transferable license to a title as opposed to a copy of the title.
 
[quote name='blindinglights']So long as the game itself is on the optical media, the items will retain value. Maybe not as much as they would otherwise, but they definitely won't be worth nothing.[/QUOTE]

You don't look at prices of PC games that require a code, huh.

Look at something like Spore with no codes, or Half Life without codes. They're worthless.
 
I'll say the same thing I said about Steam, as long as the sales are good and some of the cost savings are passed on to consumers, then no used games will not bother me. I don't purchase $60 games now and I won't start on the Xbox 720 or PS4. I'm even less likely to purchase a game full price on digital distribution.
 
[quote name='elessar123']You don't look at prices of PC games that require a code, huh.

Look at something like Spore with no codes, or Half Life without codes. They're worthless.[/QUOTE]


The games you mention are readily available from digital download services at a low price. If the future console games are available some time after their original release at $10 or some other relatively cheap price via digital download, then you're right, the used media will be worthless. But if the only way to get a copy of that game is on the disc, and the DRM is broken, then those discs would retain some value.

Imagine if Uncharted had one and done DRM on PS3 but ways to circumvent it were developed. Then it's 10 years from now and Uncharted isn't available from an online download service. Would the Uncharted discs still be worthless like Spore without a code is now? I don't think we're talking about similar scenarios.
 
[quote name='blindinglights']The games you mention are readily available from digital download services at a low price. If the future console games are available some time after their original release at $10 or some other relatively cheap price via digital download, then you're right, the used media will be worthless. But if the only way to get a copy of that game is on the disc, and the DRM is broken, then those discs would retain some value.

Imagine if Uncharted had one and done DRM on PS3 but ways to circumvent it were developed. Then it's 10 years from now and Uncharted isn't available from an online download service. Would the Uncharted discs still be worthless like Spore without a code is now? I don't think we're talking about similar scenarios.[/QUOTE]

In the case of uncharted? Yeah, they probably would be worthless. It's a mass produced game, a relatively old game, and requires special know-how to actually use it. The intersection of people who want to use it and the people who can use it will likely be dwarfed by the supply available. If it were sealed, or was from a series that had a much smaller print run, then there might be value. And that's ignoring the fact that the type of people who would have the knowledge and skill to circumvent drm could likely steal the game.
 
You know, something interesting about this - if they do go with online activation, then getting banned from XBox Live would carry a whole new impact. A ban currently locks you from downloaded games/content, but this would ban you from ALL games.

The long term implications would also be a good question, I still have an N64 hooked up in our SUV for the kids to play. I have a Dreamcast hooked up and occasionally pull out the Saturn. Playing retro games on old consoles would go away, unless before the console died they released an unlock patch - which you know they won't do because they want you to keep buying "upgraded" versions of those old games.

Microsoft is also chomping at the bit to convert ALL software sales to the license model, where you buy a license to use it that has a limited period and can be revoked. Office partially went this way recently. If the servers went offline after the lifespan of the console, then they would just point back to it and say you bought a "license" to use it not the game itself.
 
[quote name='defpally']You know, something interesting about this - if they do go with online activation, then getting banned from XBox Live would carry a whole new impact. A ban currently locks you from downloaded games/content, but this would ban you from ALL games.[/QUOTE]

That's how Steam is now, isn't it?
 
[quote name='elessar123']That's how Steam is now, isn't it?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think so - but XBox Live has cornered the market on idiots that are destined to get banned then freak when there game library becomes coasters. Mom and Dad aren't gonna like it much when their hacking/cheating/con little precious forfeits all of his $60 games. Why Was I Banned? is filled with clueless parents that have no idea their kid was scamming/hacking.
 
Just to add a little fuel to the fire:

Someone named AndyH, who apparently has a good source somewhere (he accurately leaked some Wii U specs and also Durango specs well before others did) posted on Neogaf regarding the Xbox and it's used games/always online "features" and said:

"Edge has good information. I really wonder how consumers and retailers will react to this."

So assuming he is saying that the information from Edge is accurate...ugh.

I really hope if it's true Sony does not follow suit.
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']If Sony does follow, it might help Nintendo some.[/QUOTE]

Sure, I'd probably buy a Wii U and not the other consoles just out of spite. I'd still end up getting a PS4, but not for a year or two until price drops and good games are out for it.

If you read the Edge article and assume it's accurate though, it says that PS4 will allow used games. I hope that is at least the case.

I still just can't believe MS would do this though. How are they planning on selling it? What informed consumer is still going to buy it? I guess people who are already big Xbox fans may stick with it because of their gamertag and friends who may stick with it also? I don't know. Good luck to MS if it's true.

It also ticks me off that we probably won't find out if the PS4 is doing this even on the 20th during their announcement. If they don't say anything on the used game/always online subject it'd really put a damper on the announcement imo. People may assume the worst if they don't specifically address the concerns.
 
I think i heard the same rumors last gen b4 systems came out..I really dont think they would do a online only , no second hand games model to sale the new systems.. Obviously online will play a major role in getting content , firmware updates and apps. It's how it is now days and dont think it'll be a requirement on the new systems.( but it is better to have connection)

As for second hand games, i have a feeling developers will want a code of some sort that has like 2-3 uses to activate a game on the system. It's like saying why give grapes when we can give you a apple and you split it in three's..

So in the end limiting the users of any used game purchase but not really eliminating used game sale. You will still need the disc but when you trade/sell the next user may be the final user of that game..
 
I might even sell my 360 in protest if MS does this and move all my gaming to the PS3. It would be a chore to sell all my 360 games and buy them on the PS3 but it would bother me that much.
 
[quote name='whoknows']That's silly.

MS would just be doing it to protect themselves. Would you really hold that against them?[/QUOTE]

You still around defending this crap?
 
[quote name='ShockandAww']
If you read the Edge article and assume it's accurate though, it says that PS4 will allow used games. I hope that is at least the case.

I still just can't believe MS would do this though. How are they planning on selling it? What informed consumer is still going to buy it? I guess people who are already big Xbox fans may stick with it because of their gamertag and friends who may stick with it also? I don't know. Good luck to MS if it's true.[/QUOTE]

  • Call of Duty with enhanced graphics
  • Destiny from Bungie
  • Big GamerScores
  • Big investment into xbox live content
Any of the above 4 things could help make the next xbox sucessful with or without used games. You also have Steve Ballmer running Microsoft so even the stupidest idea(merging a tablet OS onto a desktop OS) can happen.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Only doing what's logical.

It all comes down to not going out of business, and I support that.[/QUOTE]

Who is going out of business? If you cannot make a profit when your product has about 50 billion in sales every year worldwide then you do not deserve to be in business. I will guarentee that eliminating used games will cause less games to be sold. In the US:

"Consumers spent $14.8 billion on video game content in 2012, a decline of 9%, according to The NPD Group.

Breaking down the 2012 spending, NPD says that consumers spent $7.09 billion on physical video game and PC game software, a 21% drop from 2011, and $5.92 billion on digital games (full game and add-on content downloads, subscriptions, mobile games and social network games), a 16% increase. An additional $1.79 billion came from spending on used and rented games, NPD says."

So people spent 13 billion on NEW and DIGITAL games yet they are saying the 1.8 (12%) billion spent on used games is breaking them? Bull. It is nothing more than greed. Plus they never factor in the number of new sales that were driven by used game trades. The industry wants you to believe those used games sale don't actually represent 1.8 billion but rather more like 4-5 billion since new games would cost more. That is the problem. They think if they eliminate used game that magically all those purchases become $60 in their pocket. It is BS and it is going to backfire on them if they do this.
 
That 1.8 billion could help more than you seem to think. Some developers could be saved from shutting down with that money.
 
[quote name='whoknows']That 1.8 billion could help more than you seem to think. Some developers could be saved from shutting down with that money.[/QUOTE]

Again you make the assumption that money would be spent in the first place plus the amount of new sales that are lost due to trade-ins being absolete. You act like this is a zero sum proposition when in reality it is much more complex than that.


I also think it is pretty grand you are sitting here defending them yet you have 60+ trades on this website.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']If you cannot make a profit when your product has about 50 billion in sales every year worldwide then you do not deserve to be in business.[/QUOTE]

You hear that? This guy doesn't think that the US of A should be in business anymore.

Communist.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Again you make the assumption that money would be spent in the first place plus the amount of new sales that are lost due to trade-ins being absolete. You act like this is a zero sum proposition when in reality it is much more complex than that.


I also think it is pretty grand you are sitting here defending them yet you have 60+ trades on this website.[/QUOTE]

I only traded before I realized how much harm it was doing to the industry. As you can see, it's been quite awhile since I've received my latest feedback.

And of course people would be spending money on new games if they couldn't rent or buy used. They'd have no choice and the industry would be stronger for it.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I also think it is pretty grand you are sitting here defending them yet you have 60+ trades on this website.[/QUOTE]


And look at you with 0 trades.

I bet you think that we should just share everything freely.

Communist.
 
[quote name='whoknows']I only traded before I realized how much harm it was doing to the industry. As you can see, it's been quite awhile since I've received my latest feedback.

And of course people would be spending money on new games if they couldn't rent or buy used. They'd have no choice and the industry would be stronger for it.[/QUOTE]

The problem with your last statement there I think is that there will probably be less people buying these new games if that were the case. You say there is no choice but there are always choices. Buy it/Don't buy it. Don't you think there will be a good amount of people who will choose to not buy it at all, thereby hurting the industry just as much, or maybe even more?
 
I tell you what? It would be cool to give friends our purchased d/l games as gifts..i got alot i know i wont play anymore so it would be cool to give my friends some games i dont want :) Like how steam does it.
I need a system that organizes my stuff and lets me do what i want with it.

I would give my friend the ps3 kickass right away as a laugh , i hate that game.
 
[quote name='Indignate']You hear that? This guy doesn't think that the US of A should be in business anymore.

Communist.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Indignate']And look at you with 0 trades.

I bet you think that we should just share everything freely.

Communist.[/QUOTE]

Who the fuck are you?

I don't trade on this site because I don't know any of you. And with BS posts like yours I am glad I don't trade.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Who the fuck are you?

I don't trade on this site because I don't know any of you. And with BS posts like yours I am glad I don't trade.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with your reason for it, but I support you not selling/trading/buying used games.
 
[quote name='Indignate']And look at you with 0 trades.

I bet you think that we should just share everything freely.

Communist.[/QUOTE]

I think if I buy a product I have the right to sell or trade that product. Sound to me you are less a Capitalist than me.
 
Free healthcare for everyone, with purchase of new consoles!

Requirements: You must not be in womb to receive benefits.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I think if I buy a product I have the right to sell or trade that product. Sound to me you are less a Capitalist than me.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully someday it'll be part of the user agreement so you can't.


Remember how the auto industry got into trouble? It's because people keep selling and buying used cars.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Hopefully someday it'll be part of the user agreement so you can't.


Remember how the auto industry got into trouble? It's because people keep selling and buying used cars.[/QUOTE]

That was part of it, but it had more to do with the financing aspect. I don't see people taking out 6 figure loans to pay for the newest Call of Duty (no matter how bad Activision would want that).
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I think if I buy a product I have the right to sell or trade that product. Sound to me you are less a Capitalist than me.[/QUOTE]

Software Licenses have been in existence for a long time. A very long time. It'll be less like buying a car and more like leasing. You don't like it? I fully support your decision not to buy into the next generation, and wish you good luck on a new hobby.
 
LOL. Whoknows is cracking me up. He's like the Stephen of Gaming consumers in this thread.

Django-Unchained-wallpaper-01.png
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Who is going out of business? If you cannot make a profit when your product has about 50 billion in sales every year worldwide then you do not deserve to be in business. I will guarentee that eliminating used games will cause less games to be sold. [/QUOTE]
They absolutely should go out of business. Hostess also had the number one snack food in America, an iconic snack food if you will. Still went out of business. Clear Channel is up to its ass in debt and yet it is the top radio conglomerate in the country. It's insane how many companies have such horrible management and do not learn from their mistakes. I think Sony is in the same kind of trouble. Very popular product, but shitheads can't seem to figure out how to make any money with it.

I would love to see another corrective video game industry crash so that the irresponsible companies go down and the reasonable companies survive. Contrary to popular belief, forest fires are GOOD for the Earth.
[quote name='Salamando3000']Software Licenses have been in existence for a long time. A very long time. It'll be less like buying a car and more like leasing. You don't like it? I fully support your decision not to buy into the next generation, and wish you good luck on a new hobby.[/QUOTE]
I doubt there will be a lot of people who give up the hobby in response to this, but I do think that many will rethink their purchasing habits. I agree with cancerman, you will see less games sold per console, affecting the so-called attach rate, unless there are discounts. I think you will also see less word of mouth and sales from friends sharing their games. They better step it up with the robust demos if they wish to counter that.

In my personal case, the move to digital distribution on PC has absolutely changed my habits. I never, ever purchase anything full price on Steam/Amazon/Whatever, and think those that do are foolish. The sales are what is keeping me going back to the Steam trough. If Microsoft can't figure out how to make money with Steam-like sales, my Xbox 720 library will be very small. Do they want to sell me two $60 games per year? Or do they want to sell me five $30 games per year? It's up to them to figure it out.
 
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[quote name='Salamando3000']Software Licenses have been in existence for a long time. A very long time. It'll be less like buying a car and more like leasing. You don't like it? I fully support your decision not to buy into the next generation, and wish you good luck on a new hobby.[/QUOTE]

What makes video games any different from books or movies? You pay for your copy. You have the right to do what you please with that copy as long as you are not reproducing it or distributing to others. If I want to sell my copy of Iron Man why should I not have that right? This idea that the original seller somehow should retain their rights to the product is completely anti-consumer. So does an artist retain the rights to every print of a painting that sells? Do I not have the right to sell my print to another person? Video games are not some special unicorns that deserve exemptions from the secondary market. If you have ever gone to college have you sold back your books at the end of the semester? According to Indignate that is communism. I would hate to think what some of you would do with libraries. An institution whose sole purpose is to give access to copyrighted material for free. Again 50 billion dollars and they cannot turn a profit. That should not be my problem.
 
If you didn't make the movie or book or whatever you shouldn't be able to make money off of it.

You're making money off of someone elses work which is wrong since they put the time and money into making it.
 
[quote name='whoknows']If you didn't make the movie or book or whatever you shouldn't be able to make money off of it.

You're making money off of someone elses work which is wrong since they put the time and money into making it.[/QUOTE]

Can I sell my dinner table to my neighbor? Should garage sales be outlawed?

That being said, the game companies have the capacity to lock out used games because that is simply the nature of the technology. I doubt the table makers could lock out used table sales.

There is also the danger that my copy of NBA 2k14 stops working once NBA 2k16 rolls around. They already do that today with multiplayer you pay for, multiplayer that is hosted using your own bandwidth.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']What makes video games any different from books or movies? You pay for your copy. You have the right to do what you please with that copy as long as you are not reproducing it or distributing to others. If I want to sell my copy of Iron Man why should I not have that right? This idea that the original seller somehow should retain their rights to the product is completely anti-consumer. So does an artist retain the rights to every print of a painting that sells? Do I not have the right to sell my print to another person? Video games are not some special unicorns that deserve exemptions from the secondary market. If you have ever gone to college have you sold back your books at the end of the semester? According to Indignate that is communism. I would hate to think what some of you would do with libraries. An institution whose sole purpose is to give access to copyrighted material for free. Again 50 billion dollars and they cannot turn a profit. That should not be my problem.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to software, there is legally a difference between owning a copy of something and being licensed to use something. If you own it, everything you said applies. It's not different from a book or movie...you paid for your copy...you have the right to sell it to others. If you license it, you don't. You don't own squat. The only right you have is the right to use it. As I've said, software licenses have existed for a very long time.
 
[quote name='Indignate']You hear that? This guy doesn't think that the US of A should be in business anymore.

Communist.[/QUOTE]

Who are you and why should we care? Stop harassing people and get a life
 
And licenses are never transferable? Why not? What if I sell my computer? Is the OS not part of that? Again software might want to think it is special but the reality is consumers do not see it that way. You have the right to lock people out but there will be a backlash. People do not want to buy things when they feel there is not ownership.
 
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[quote name='Spokker']Can I sell my dinner table to my neighbor? Should garage sales be outlawed?

That being said, the game companies have the capacity to lock out used games because that is simply the nature of the technology. I doubt the table makers could lock out used table sales.

There is also the danger that my copy of NBA 2k14 stops working once NBA 2k16 rolls around. They already do that today with multiplayer you pay for, multiplayer that is hosted using your own bandwidth.[/QUOTE]

Unless you made the table you shouldn't be making money off of it. If the guy who made the table said it's okay, then fine.

As far as gaming goes if the developers don't want you making money off their work then you shouldn't be allowed to. If you want to sell games then make your own.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']When it comes to software, there is legally a difference between owning a copy of something and being licensed to use something. If you own it, everything you said applies. It's not different from a book or movie...you paid for your copy...you have the right to sell it to others. If you license it, you don't. You don't own squat. The only right you have is the right to use it. As I've said, software licenses have existed for a very long time.[/QUOTE]
The software license argument does not fly when in reality people have been selling these items for years. It is only fairly recent that on the PC the licenses have been effectively enforceable in that they are tied to your Steam account. Then again, on the PC GoG has been very successful with its DRM-free model.

So as we focus our attention to the next generation of consoles, it's difficult for people to swallow the license argument because it has never actually applied in real life. I have a disc and it can be played on my Xbox 360 or anybody else's Xbox 360. It's still going to be an adjustment for people to get used to the fact that the games are tied to your Hotmail account.

I do think, as far as digital distribution goes, that the practice of tying the game to a console *and* gamertag is very nice, and something my household has taken advantage of, and I hope it continues. This should abate some of the controversy.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Unless you made the table you shouldn't be making money off of it. If the guy who made the table said it's okay, then fine.

As far as gaming goes if the developers don't want you making money off their work then you shouldn't be allowed to. If you want to sell games then make your own.[/QUOTE]

You are just trolling now.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Unless you made the table you shouldn't be making money off of it. If the guy who made the table said it's okay, then fine.
[/QUOTE]
Not only do I not know who made the dinner table, I don't care what he has to say about me giving, selling or trading the table with anyone else. The table maker received a fair price for the table, and it is unlikely that I will recoup more than half that for a used table. And I cannot duplicate that table. There is no moral imperative to even consider doing what you suggest.

Perhaps we should also outlaw hand-me-downs via family members.
[quote name='cancerman1120']You are just trolling now.[/QUOTE]
Even if they are trolling, someone somewhere probably believes that shit, and it's fun to argue.
 
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