Official Sears Clearance Thread II - post Sears finds/deals here

[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']The sales on new release titles from SHC and crew have been pretty damn good, but the CAG in me just couldn't pull the trigger and pay real cash for those deals. Now if Kmart/Sears started up a game/electronics trade-in site or program like TRU/BB/Target/Amazon have, then I'd be in the market to pay those prices.

What irks me most about the people asking questions in the thread is that some will repeat it ad nauseam every half hour until someone answers it, even if the info is in the first post of the thread.

But that's more of a gripe of mine that's common on most of the boards on CAG and not just that one specific thread.[/QUOTE]


To me its seems that SHC is looking out for the regular buyer than CAG'S
 
[quote name='Lyricsborn']To me its seems that SHC is looking out for the regular buyer than CAG'S[/QUOTE]

Maybe that's because it's his job to do that?

Honestly, there are very often summer clearance lulls. I wouldn't get too freaked out about it.
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']If you have a Shopko you can get it for sure on the 360 for $1.25 :applause:[/QUOTE]

i had to pick up another copy when i saw it at that price.
 
[quote name='Space Cowboy YGI']
IMO, what SHC-Gamer and his crew does is great. However, I get some what irritated by people posting about problems he simply cannot fix/do (salesperson was rude, can you mark down every game made before 2010, can you find this game for me, etc.). What sort of gets me riled up is that he (or someone in his crew) actually responds to these people (cleaning up aisles/rows and handling rude employees is the store manager's job...not his).[/QUOTE]

Intentions may appear "great" but for all the fails on a deal being available or even an item being available have been a "fail" for many CAGs that have posted. Sure, struggling retailers are short staffed...but store staff have no control on when stock arrives, IF said stock ever arrives, how much is ordered and most importantly if the POS system rings the deal correctly. These things are all in the hands of the corporate team. Creating the deal (buying) is the easy part, execution at the store level is the challenge. Heck, just triple check with IT before the deal goes live and then simply call a couple stores in each time zone to check on availability and the POS system.

Absolutely amazing dozens of CAGs post (which represents how many that do not post) driving to a store to SPEND MONEY and not being able to for issues outside of basic customer service (or lack thereof).

Has this happened one week? ... no ... multiple weeks ...

Why blame the store staff of thousands when the issues stem from corporate and failed communication/follow-up.....
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']Maybe that's because it's his job to do that?

Honestly, there are very often summer clearance lulls. I wouldn't get too freaked out about it.[/QUOTE]

Wow, i'm surprised people are still so naive about this shit. Of course SHC killed clearance at Kmart and Sears! Sure it probably will come back eventually(hopefully) , but that's the reason it's dead now. I'm surprised Confoosious hasn't come in here to tell us we're all stupid. HA
 
Wow guys, I really didnt want Dark Sector. I was just curious what it would ring up as. Thanks for all the different tips though! I was actually stating I wanted to try Beowulf for under $5 to see just how bad it was.

And I have to say it again. I love CAG since it helps me get cheap games, but some of you have a very high sense of entitlement. Kmart and Sears doesnt want our business. If we only buy $5 clearance games they arent making any money off of us, so they dont care if you hate SHC or not. Fact is their stores suck anyway, so they will die eventually unless they change (which is what they are trying with SHCs team I guess).
 
[quote name='lude21']Wow, i'm surprised people are still so naive about this shit. Of course SHC killed clearance at Kmart and Sears! Sure it probably will come back eventually(hopefully) , but that's the reason it's dead now. I'm surprised Confoosious hasn't come in here to tell us we're all stupid. HA[/QUOTE]


No matter how many times this is said some just dont get it
 
I picked up a few copies of :psp:Loco Roco 2 today from Sears for $.97. I also had the same clerk price check the lone copy of :ps3:Tom Clancy's RSV 2(which was $16.97 as reported).

I also had them price check both :ps3:Smackdown Vs. Raw 2008($2.97) and :ps3:Pirates of The Caribbean: At World's End($6.97).

But all I picked up was the copies of LR2, though I did still see the same copy of :wii:A Boy & His Blob that was there the last time I was there.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']I picked up a few copies of :psp:Loco Roco 2 today from Sears for $.97. I also had the same clerk price check the lone copy of :ps3:Tom Clancy's RSV 2(which was $16.97 as reported).

I also had them price check both :ps3:Smackdown Vs. Raw 2008($2.97) and :ps3:Pirates of The Caribbean: At World's End($6.97).

But all I picked up was the copies of LR2, though I did still see the same copy of :wii:A Boy & His Blob that was there the last time I was there.[/QUOTE]

Damn you should of snagged Boy & His Blob
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']Damn you should of snagged Boy & His Blob[/QUOTE]
I've left it there three times now. I was more interested in :ps3:Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2, but not at $17.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']I've left it there three times now. I was more interested in :ps3:Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2, but not at $17.[/QUOTE]
I saw the Limited Edition (for 360) for $10 at Warehouse Deals once upon a time. I waited, and someone else snagged it. Although, I bought a previous copy for $15 before that. :bomb:
 
[quote name='Lyricsborn']To me its seems that SHC is looking out for the regular buyer than CAG'S[/QUOTE]

Getting a $20 discount on or coupon with a new game is a well and good but when it comes at the sake of getting clearance deals like the PS3 Sith Edition or the P3 box set I've picked up for $20 each at K-Mart in the past, it's not hard to see that SHC corporate insight into CAG is a negative.
I believe that SHC said something in the KMart thread to the effect of all of us helping to shape the store's future. This is very true. SHC is doing a good job for his employer but as a consumer, participation in the deals he sets up I believe is participation in the death (or at least severe crippling) of their clearance. I think I'll refrain from taking the deals on new stuff anymore. I can't blame him for what he's doing but it's not in my best personal interest to support it.
I have to say though when a company doesn't have the money to udpate it's stores, and it is targeting gamers on a blog with break-even deals on new gaming stuff in attempt to draw business to other departments, it sounds like a time of desperation to me. Can't believe KMart/Sears have been around this long, but I don't think they are going to survive much longer. I personally don't know many people who turn to these stores to purchase things on a regular basis. Might just be me my area though since there are many other choices.
 
[quote name='smcmanus1980']Getting a $20 discount on or coupon with a new game is a well and good but when it comes at the sake of getting clearance deals like the PS3 Sith Edition or the P3 box set I've picked up for $20 each at K-Mart in the past, it's not hard to see that SHC corporate insight into CAG is a negative.
I believe that SHC said something in the KMart thread to the effect of all of us helping to shape the store's future. This is very true. SHC is doing a good job for his employer but as a consumer, participation in the deals he sets up I believe is participation in the death (or at least severe crippling) of their clearance. I think I'll refrain from taking the deals on new stuff anymore. I can't blame him for what he's doing but it's not in my best personal interest to support it.
I have to say though when a company doesn't have the money to udpate it's stores, and it is targeting gamers on a blog with break-even deals on new gaming stuff in attempt to draw business to other departments, it sounds like a time of desperation to me. Can't believe KMart/Sears have been around this long, but I don't think they are going to survive much longer. I personally don't know many people who turn to these stores to purchase things on a regular basis. Might just be me my area though since there are many other choices.[/QUOTE]

Should of been a red flag instantly when the Kmart thread savior Kay" was all of a sudden slapped with a gag order and SHC showed up !!!
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']Should of been a red flag instantly when the Kmart thread savior Kay" was all of a sudden slapped with a gag order and SHC showed up !!![/QUOTE]
What was even funnier was when the corporate goons from Toys R Us asked for the 'official' to be taken off of the TRU thread, since 'it might omg totally make people think that they approve of it'.:roll:

You'd think the corporate lackeys would have something else better to do than nitpick over such petty garbage, especially considering the dire financial condition their company was in just a few short years ago with closings and such.;)

They should be more worried about getting old stock out of their stores(through REGULAR clearance drops) and advertising the ever loving shit out of the new stock to assure that it doesn't end up like the old stock and languishing there forever.
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']Should of been a red flag instantly when the Kmart thread savior Kay" was all of a sudden slapped with a gag order and SHC showed up !!![/QUOTE]
This. I haven't been to a Kmart since Kay stopped being our main source of info there. SHC seems as though he has done a great job for Kmart, but I have no interest in brand new games at $40 as I prefer to wait for them to be less than $10.
I am guessing we will see clearance pick up early next year. This same lull happened last year, and probably in years past. Being a Cheap Ass Gamer often requires being a Patient Ass Gamer.
 
While I can see why anyone who has been able to get in on these deals for a while would be upset, speaking as someone whose Sears apparently doesn't clearance anything ever, I'm (personally) happy to get the great deals SHC-Gamer does. It may not be games for less than $5, but for relatively new games to get price breaks and coupon deals? That's pretty good, and I'll take what I can get. Maybe if Sears clearance was more universal I'd feel differently, but I've never been able to get a clearance game at any Sears I've visited. They're either full MSRP or not carried at all.
 
[quote name='JustYourAverageJoe']While I can see why anyone who has been able to get in on these deals for a while would be upset, speaking as someone whose Sears apparently doesn't clearance anything ever, I'm (personally) happy to get the great deals SHC-Gamer does. It may not be games for less than $5, but for relatively new games to get price breaks and coupon deals? That's pretty good, and I'll take what I can get. Maybe if Sears clearance was more universal I'd feel differently, but I've never been able to get a clearance game at any Sears I've visited. They're either full MSRP or not carried at all.[/QUOTE]
This is why I AGAIN wish that updates for clearance prices from corporate were downloaded and installed into the system AFTER hours and unable to be overridden by managers at individual stores.

It would eliminate all of the YMMV crap in a heartbeat.
 
[quote name='ackbar7']This. I haven't been to a Kmart since Kay stopped being our main source of info there. SHC seems as though he has done a great job for Kmart, but I have no interest in brand new games at $40 as I prefer to wait for them to be less than $10.
I am guessing we will see clearance pick up early next year. This same lull happened last year, and probably in years past. Being a Cheap Ass Gamer often requires being a Patient Ass Gamer.[/QUOTE]

I hope you're right but if the plan is successful I'm sure SHC-gamer will have the wheel for a while. Much to his credit I don't think he's a slacker so I believe he will stay of top of the clearance situation and make sure it will not get to where it once was ever again. The fact that I am now starting to see games freeze at certain prices is really starting to convince me of this.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']This is why I AGAIN wish that updates for clearance prices from corporate were downloaded and installed into the system AFTER hours and unable to be overridden by managers at individual stores.

It would eliminate all of the YMMV crap in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]
Hey, I'll second that. There are a bunch of games at Sears that I'd love to get. But I won't pay prices that are at or above whatever new MSRP has been around for months, or even years. Sorry Sears, but I'm not going to pay $40 for a 4 year old game, or $60 for one that's now Greatest Hits.

If their pricing was ever dropped in line with the clearance drops reported here from other stores, I'd have relieved them of those games a long time ago.
 
[quote name='smcmanus1980']I hope you're right but if the plan is successful I'm sure SHC-gamer will have the wheel for a while. Much to his credit I don't think he's a slacker so I believe he will stay of top of the clearance situation and make sure it will not get to where it once was ever again. The fact that I am now starting to see games freeze at certain prices is really starting to convince me of this.[/QUOTE]
See, I don't think his plan is successful though. They may be selling more games now, but NO ONE shops at Kmart. and People may be going in to buy new release games but I doubt they are buying much else, and Kmart is not making much off of selling these new games at $20 off. It is not outside the realm of possibilities that SHC will be gone from Kmart or reassigned only to let their video game section fall apart again. CAGs like to think the way it is now is the way it always will be (in terms of clearance), but usually that is not true.
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']Should of been a red flag instantly when the Kmart thread savior Kay" was all of a sudden slapped with a gag order and SHC showed up !!![/QUOTE]

So true...
 
[quote name='ackbar7']See, I don't think his plan is successful though. They may be selling more games now, but NO ONE shops at Kmart. and People may be going in to buy new release games but I doubt they are buying much else, and Kmart is not making much off of selling these new games at $20 off. It is not outside the realm of possibilities that SHC will be gone from Kmart or reassigned only to let their video game section fall apart again. CAGs like to think the way it is now is the way it always will be (in terms of clearance), but usually that is not true.[/QUOTE]

As for the $ off, most discounts are agreed upon by both parties (vendor and buyer) way before we hear about them. This is done during meetings, phone calls or "market" (where Buyers and others go to view upcoming merchandise). Contracts are agreed upon and deals "get done". SHC-Gamer can actually tell you the next $ off or gift card deal on games for the rest of the year (if he wanted to). However, he would be breaking him and his company's legal agreement with the vendor. The deals (ads) are already on "the wall" (slang for a room at the Corporate Offices with all ads for Fall/Winter).

He doesn't have to be successful for Kmart as a whole, just his new department. This is where things like "bonuses" and recognition/promotions for him and his department come in. I'm pretty sure he has come close or exceeded expectations already and at their next quarterly "pep rally", him and his department will be standing tall in front of their peers collecting their just rewards. Once again, like I said before, he's doing a great job and CAG is more than likely getting alot of pub (great for Cheapy), but not so great for anyone looking for really cheap deals.

On the bright side, he probably knows he needs to get rid of some of these games to make room for the Fall/Winter releases, so maybe we'll see clearance titles pop up again soon.
 
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[quote name='smcmanus1980']Getting a $20 discount on or coupon with a new game is a well and good but when it comes at the sake of getting clearance deals like the PS3 Sith Edition or the P3 box set I've picked up for $20 each at K-Mart in the past, it's not hard to see that SHC corporate insight into CAG is a negative.
I believe that SHC said something in the KMart thread to the effect of all of us helping to shape the store's future. This is very true. SHC is doing a good job for his employer but as a consumer, participation in the deals he sets up I believe is participation in the death (or at least severe crippling) of their clearance. I think I'll refrain from taking the deals on new stuff anymore. I can't blame him for what he's doing but it's not in my best personal interest to support it.
I have to say though when a company doesn't have the money to udpate it's stores, and it is targeting gamers on a blog with break-even deals on new gaming stuff in attempt to draw business to other departments, it sounds like a time of desperation to me. Can't believe KMart/Sears have been around this long, but I don't think they are going to survive much longer. I personally don't know many people who turn to these stores to purchase things on a regular basis. Might just be me my area though since there are many other choices.[/QUOTE]

Just pm the deals at Best Buy (I just have them make a phone call if needed) but we spend so much there, they just go with what I tell them .... but I only pm one copy so as not to abuse the pming...
with this you can have your cake ..."
 
[quote name='donut']Just pm the deals at Best Buy (I just have them make a phone call if needed) but we spend so much there, they just go with what I tell them .... but I only pm one copy so as not to abuse the pming...
with this you can have your cake ..."[/QUOTE]

So because you're pissed that clearance is gone at kmart and drying up at sears, you're gonna PM all the good Kmart deals at Best Buy?

How does that help bring back clearance? Oh, are you just mad at SHC cause he made you look foolish? Way to show him!!!

Some people crack me up. And by crack me up, I mean weep for humanity.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']So wait, are you guys saying that they executed Kay? I was wondering why she never started up a new clearance thread.[/QUOTE]

Here's my recollection of events in time.

- Kay said something along the lines of "this will be my last post" -- i don't know if she implied or said it explicitly but the jist was that she was told she could not post clearance lists anymore.

- SHC showed up

- SHC said that nobody censored kay.

- Kay posted a few more clearance lists.

- Haven't heard from kay in a while.

Whether kay was silenced or simply had nothing to say because there is no new clearance drops depends on how thick your tinfoil hat is. :)

Seems to me that kay has posted recently (checked and it's 7/23...) and it just simply was nothing good on clearance. Which sucks but isn't exactly the same as the man executing kay. The only one who knows for sure now is kay.
 
[quote name='Space Cowboy YGI']As for the $ off, most discounts are agreed upon by both parties (vendor and buyer) way before we hear about them. This is done during meetings, phone calls or "market" (where Buyers and others go to view upcoming merchandise). Contracts are agreed upon and deals "get done". SHC-Gamer can actually tell you the next $ off or gift card deal on games for the rest of the year (if he wanted to). However, he would be breaking him and his company's legal agreement with the vendor. The deals (ads) are already on "the wall" (slang for a room at the Corporate Offices with all ads for Fall/Winter).

He doesn't have to be successful for Kmart as a whole, just his new department. This is where things like "bonuses" and recognition/promotions for him and his department come in. I'm pretty sure he has come close or exceeded expectations already and at their next quarterly "pep rally", him and his department will be standing tall in front of their peers collecting their just rewards. Once again, like I said before, he's doing a great job and CAG is more than likely getting alot of pub (great for Cheapy), but not so great for anyone looking for really cheap deals.

On the bright side, he probably knows he needs to get rid of some of these games to make room for the Fall/Winter releases, so maybe we'll see clearance titles pop up again soon.[/QUOTE]
I think it is way too soon to know this, because while sales volume is almost undeniably up, are profits? It seems unlikely that in negotiating with vendors he is getting them to take all of the loss in profits for Kmart's price cuts. So they are making less per each video game sold, how much less I don't know, but it could be substantially less and if that is the case it may not be worth it to Kmart to continue to put in this effort for only a marginal gain.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Here's my recollection of events in time.

- Kay said something along the lines of "this will be my last post" -- i don't know if she implied or said it explicitly but the jist was that she was told she could not post clearance lists anymore.

- SHC showed up

- SHC said that nobody censored kay.

- Kay posted a few more clearance lists.

- Haven't heard from kay in a while.

Whether kay was silenced or simply had nothing to say because there is no new clearance drops depends on how thick your tinfoil hat is. :)

Seems to me that kay has posted recently (checked and it's 7/23...) and it just simply was nothing good on clearance. Which sucks but isn't exactly the same as the man executing kay. The only one who knows for sure now is kay.[/QUOTE]

They forced Kay to eat Expired food from the local store and now all kay does is sits in the corner and rocks back and forth :shock:
 
[quote name='ackbar7']I think it is way too soon to know this, because while sales volume is almost undeniably up, are profits? It seems unlikely that in negotiating with vendors he is getting them to take all of the loss in profits for Kmart's price cuts. So they are making less per each video game sold, how much less I don't know, but it could be substantially less and if that is the case it may not be worth it to Kmart to continue to put in this effort for only a marginal gain.[/QUOTE]

In the Corporate retail world, ads are "in circulation" or complete and posted on "the Wall" for this year as well as the first 3 months of next year right now. Ask anyone who works in Advertising, Production or Marketing for any Corporate Retailer (the Big Boys AKA Major Retailers) and they will confirm this. This is across the board at every retail corporation. Now, the $ amounts and % (as well as gift cards, promos, etc.) change (or stays the same) depending on revenue (profit/loss margins, bad sale weeks or month, etc.). The only real exception are Black Friday and After Xmas ads (these ads change in a minute and really has everyone "up and running").
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']They forced Kay to eat Expired food from the local store and now all kay does is sits in the corner and rocks back and forth :shock:[/QUOTE]

lol...it has to that expired milk that everyone was talking about.....
 
Just left my Sears, and they had some special for the weekend I guess where it was 50% off all clearance marked toys. A special 50% barcode was scanned at the end of my transaction. Wonder what would've happened if I'd gotten a clearance game too? Probably ymmv on this one.
 
[quote name='ackbar7']I think it is way too soon to know this, because while sales volume is almost undeniably up, are profits? It seems unlikely that in negotiating with vendors he is getting them to take all of the loss in profits for Kmart's price cuts. So they are making less per each video game sold, how much less I don't know, but it could be substantially less and if that is the case it may not be worth it to Kmart to continue to put in this effort for only a marginal gain.[/QUOTE]

True, but they might also look at the fact that they are recording game sales. Even if the games are selling at a reduced price point, those are probably the only actual sales on new releases they've had in ages. Now it might not be viable long term if they don't get a consistant influx of people without the need to have a sale, but its still a improvement for them for the short term.

They seriously need to fix up their normal pricing schemes though if they want to attract a large crowd. 3 year old games that are still MSRP need to be fixed. Though those 59.99 gamecube games are tempting..
 
I think the SHC folks are too busy trying to make their big splash they don't care how they get the numbers as long as they get them because it will give them more time to try and figure out what to do next. At first I really liked the idea of the SHC guys doing some stuff to try and improve Kmart & Sears, but then I have seen the results and nothing has improved. They are still the tired old franchises that need someone smart to turn them around, instead they're going all in on these Kmart deals and when it dries up so will their video game business.

Mark my words, this will probably be a bigger contributor to the reduction in gaming at Sears/Kmart than a positive growth experience for them. In a year we'll all be talking about the great deals they had for 6-9 months and how their video game section is a shell of itself.
 
[quote name='converse']

Mark my words, this will probably be a bigger contributor to the reduction in gaming at Sears/Kmart than a positive growth experience for them. In a year we'll all be talking about the great deals they had for 6-9 months and how their video game section is a shell of itself.[/QUOTE]

But if kmart deals go down the toilet, however will you ever get inventory for your ebay store? ;)
 
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Went to a Sears and found saw some stuff and got excited. Til I scanned them. They wanted $29.99 for FES that I found at another Sears for $7.xx months earlier. And that was one of the least disappointing prices.
 
[quote name='confoosious']But if kmart deals go down the toilet, however will you ever get inventory for your ebay store? ;)[/QUOTE]

I guess I do have that one or two clearance items from Kmart in my inventory. So I might lose 1 or 2 items from the 40 that I have in my inventory at a time.
 
Went to a Sears out of town, found:
HAWX :ps3: $11.97

Strangely nearly all games were marked with the pink clearance stickers, but were regular (MSRP) prices.
 
[quote name='converse']I think the SHC folks are too busy trying to make their big splash they don't care how they get the numbers as long as they get them because it will give them more time to try and figure out what to do next. At first I really liked the idea of the SHC guys doing some stuff to try and improve Kmart & Sears, but then I have seen the results and nothing has improved. They are still the tired old franchises that need someone smart to turn them around, instead they're going all in on these Kmart deals and when it dries up so will their video game business.

Mark my words, this will probably be a bigger contributor to the reduction in gaming at Sears/Kmart than a positive growth experience for them. In a year we'll all be talking about the great deals they had for 6-9 months and how their video game section is a shell of itself.[/QUOTE]

Most of the issues revolving Kmart have nothing to do with SHC's efforts here as it goes beyond video games which is only a small part of their companies focus. Most of their stores have unknowledgable employees that don't give a crap about doing their job well. Kmart itself was content to accept status quo for ages as far as its layout, merchandising, and attitude without trying evolving their brand name to keep up with the current market.

I don't see the chain dying anytime soon, but its hard to really grow without a complete turnover. SHC-gamer's focus has been to develop a stable market in the video game retail buisness which is quite lucrative. You can't expect things to be completely changed and buisness to be booming after only a few months. That just doesn't happen as change takes a lot of time and patience. Most concerns here of course are the lack of clearances. If you are trying to resurrect a dead buisness sector of your franchise, clearances aren't a high priority. I'm sure that will change down the road when the clutter of old overpriced crap becomes too much of a burden.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Here's my recollection of events in time.

- Kay said something along the lines of "this will be my last post" -- i don't know if she implied or said it explicitly but the jist was that she was told she could not post clearance lists anymore.

- SHC showed up

- SHC said that nobody censored kay.

- Kay posted a few more clearance lists.

- Haven't heard from kay in a while.

Whether kay was silenced or simply had nothing to say because there is no new clearance drops depends on how thick your tinfoil hat is. :)

Seems to me that kay has posted recently (checked and it's 7/23...) and it just simply was nothing good on clearance. Which sucks but isn't exactly the same as the man executing kay. The only one who knows for sure now is kay.[/QUOTE]

SHC is KAY.... dunh dunh dunh
 
[quote name='confoosious']But if kmart deals go down the toilet, however will you ever get inventory for your ebay store? ;)[/QUOTE]

dammit how did I miss him finally getting banned?


so sad....:roll:
 
Sad how Sears clearance went from being awesome to having nothing in a few months. The store I was at today had literally not 1 clearance game, I knew everything was stickered correctly since the game accessories were all labeled right with August stickers.
 
Whats really sad from my perspective is that I only learned about the sears clearence just long enough to enjoy it for TWO months and then it died. I guess it had been going back a year+? Man that would have been something... :(
 
YMMV, Found FFXII Revenant Wings for $11.97 hung up on the wall with the ds games that are usually normal price, no clearance sticker or anything
 
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