Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

[quote name='perdition(troy']They are going to spend 100 million on the mosque, stop acting like they don't have cash.[/QUOTE]

In NYC, 100 million is only like having 25 million.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']In NYC, 100 million is only like having 25 million.[/QUOTE]

It's not just that. If the design/ due diligence was done for that particular site- moving would be akin starting over
 
Bowing to bigotry and moving is insensitive to the memories of the fallen and their families.

War hysteria and prejudice has a long, shameful history in this country. Though if hatred does force a move, maybe a place can be found near the British erected Gardens of Remembrance, a peaceful place of actual healing.
 
[quote name='usickenme']It's not just that. If the design/ due diligence was done for that particular site- moving would be akin starting over[/QUOTE]

http://www.psfk.com/wp-content/uploads/pth/thumb_Training-Computers-To-Detect-Sarcasm.jpg

thumb_Training-Computers-To-Detect-Sarcasm.jpg
 
[quote name='speedracer']I think you've unintentionally hit the nail on the head. It's definitely NOT a religious issue alone. It's a property issue. Even softcore libertarians are pretty grossed out at the thought of land use being an issue like this. The "freedom" crowd should be horrified by the idea that someone shouldn't be able to build what they want where they want. The religious (of all stripes) should hate something like this because it's a precedent.

OMG THERES A GUN SHOP WITHIN A MILE AND CHANGE OF COLUMBINE. TOO CLOSE TOO SOON.


Giving state land to a religious organization? no no no No NO NO NO. [/QUOTE]To think you were so close to actually staying in line with the rest of your post, I guess you just spazzed for a moment and decided to crap on the bed.
Two presidents from both parties asked him to go. It's disingenuous to shit on that after the fact. And it's a just a plain shit way to describe the man. The goddamn FBI also asked him to do it and report back, which he apparently did. This guy put his neck out for us and why? Because he's a damned American.
Disingenuous? I personally don't care who asked him to go, he went on a state funded trip to raise money, won't recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization and got the nod from said organization all in the same year. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Just because politians and organizations sanction things, doesn't mean it's right. As far as I'm concerned he's a pretty shitty person, regardless of his status as a citizen.
Religious financing should be nobody's concern but their own unless it's being used to promote a crime.
Generally religious financing doesn't include 100 million dollar projects in the heart of a sore subject. When was the last 100 million dollar church or synagogue got built? 2001 seems to be the best I can find and that's for a televangelist church in Houston that came in at 12 million for 30 years of rent, 70 million for remodeling. At the least it can sit 16k people, you're sure as shit not fitting 16k people into a Burlington coat factory sized building.
You have every right to that opinion and no one's trying to take that away. But people disagree with your opinion, and your opinion should about this being a good idea or not should not change the rules we all have to play by.

Just sayin.
You have every right to that opinion and no one is trying to take that away. But people disagree with your opinion and your opinion about this being a good idea or not should not make you misunderstand that I never mentioned anything about changing the rules we live by.

Just sayin.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']They are going to spend 100 million on the mosque, stop acting like they don't have cash.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between raising 100 million for the construction of a mosque/community center at a certain location and just having 100 million lying around to dive into Scrooge McDuck style.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']When was the last 100 million dollar church or synagogue got built? 2001 seems to be the best I can find and that's for a televangelist church in Houston that came in at 12 million for 30 years of rent, 70 million for remodeling. At the least it can sit 16k people, you're sure as shit not fitting 16k people into a Burlington coat factory sized building.[/QUOTE]

Willow Creek Worship Center = 2004 = $73 million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Creek_Community_Church

Second Baptist Church = 2006 = pledged $84 million to expansion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Baptist_Church_Houston

Also Park51 is going to be a brand new 13 story building with a prayer room that can hold 2,000 people, 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, and a food court serving halal dishes. In New York, that shit is expensive.
 
Mad39er, if our federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies who likely have a file thousands of pages thick on the guy, have found nothing wrong with him, your opinion of him being a "sh**ty" person doesn't mean dick. If they had dirt on this guy, he'd be getting a tan in Cuba right now, so quit with the horsecrap that he's some sort of whacky radical who wants to build a COMMUNITY CENTER and mosque. It makes you sound like a radical who is just a couple more copies of Catcher in the Rye away from mailing bombs to people.
 
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Mad39er, do you think Ehud Barak is a shitty person, in light of the following quote:

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

The Imam has unequivocally condemned violence. If that makes him a shitty person Mad39er...I don't know what to say.
 
I just read an article that said they have no where near enough to build this thing anyway. It said they had somewhere around $13,000 I think. Can't find the article now.
 
[quote name='tivo']Possible solutions/outcomes:

1) Mosque concedes lack of sensitivity and moves a few blocks farther away. The issue is dropped.
2) Mosque turns into a multi faith community center where all religions pray. Funding pulls out and it isn't built.
3) Mosque is built and Islamic fanaticals will think of it as a victory, normal muslims don't, and the US is still split, causing more of the division its been propagating, until it is put out of mind by mainstream america ~6 months from now.

Are there any more? Seriously.


P.S. This isn't about legality (thanks O). Its about right and wrong. Similarly, a person can go into a public library and look at porn. Thats legal, but it doesn't make it right. It shouldn't happen there because of the sensitivity of others. That's the best analogy I can give which I think a lot of you will understand. No one wants to take away rights.[/QUOTE]

lol. This entire quote is practically what I said and I got called a bigot.

I like this post. The bold part is what I have been trying to say for a long time
 
[quote name='Mad39er']To think you were so close to actually staying in line with the rest of your post, I guess you just spazzed for a moment and decided to crap on the bed.[/quote]
wat
Disingenuous? I personally don't care who asked him to go, he went on a state funded trip to raise money, won't recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization and got the nod from said organization all in the same year. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Just because politians and organizations sanction things, doesn't mean it's right. As far as I'm concerned he's a pretty shitty person, regardless of his status as a citizen.
So what's the angle here? He's a Hamas man and you're a Mot? Yassin dick you out of a $20 spot at the poker table? No rational uninvolved person gets all butt hurt about a religion and money (in a direct way, not in that limp wrist existential liberal way) unless they've got skin in the game.
You have every right to that opinion and no one is trying to take that away. But people disagree with your opinion and your opinion about this being a good idea or not should not make you misunderstand that I never mentioned anything about changing the rules we live by.

Just sayin.
Be a bigger dick.
 
Regardless of how you feel about this being built, do you honestly believe it will get built? I mean really - what batshit insane construction crew that wants to be blacklisted into bankruptcy anywhere in the New England area would bid to build it?

It won't get built.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Regardless of how you feel about this being built, do you honestly believe it will get built? I mean really - what batshit insane construction crew that wants to be blacklisted into bankruptcy anywhere in the New England area would bid to build it?

It won't get built.[/QUOTE]
A $100 million project in this economy with the way building starts are dead in the water? The line will be to Canada to build it.
 
[quote name='speedracer']A $100 million project in this economy with the way building starts are dead in the water? The line will be to Canada to build it.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree. Construction companies will take the role of finding their men work, which is what it should be. Nobody would turn down that kind of money, even if the group its being built for is being flamed by this stupid country.

I live in NY and have no issue with this mosque. People attach themselves to stupid things. Pearl Harbor was attacked. Does that mean Japanese tourists should not be allowed to Hawaii? To claim that it's okay to build it, but not okay to build it there is once of the dumbest arguments. Perhaps I would be a little more cautious regarding a mosque being built ON the site, but it's a couple blocks from the site. Guaranteed if there was a church planning to build there it would be fine. This country is too quick to judge entire groups of people based off of the actions of a few. Really... what percentage of muslims do these people think are extremists?

It's such a stupid waste of time argument. There is no way they can be blocked from building there without preventing their freedom of religion. Sure, nobody is saying they can't be muslim, but they are saying that they can't buy a property and build a building using their own funds because they are muslim and muslims don't belong there. This argument is almost as stupid as being opposed to gay marriage. It's a fucking word. Gay people have absolutly no bearing on your life or ability to function in today's world. We have thousands of orphan kids who will NEVER have parents. Let them marry and have kids. Really, what's to prevent them from having kids naturally and still raising them in a gay home? Nothing. What's to prevent them from taking part in any and all activities married couples do? Nothing. Let's focus our resources on issues that matter... like getting our economy going again, working as a singular government, or finding a cure from cancer.
 
What a stupid article. If NY workers didn't want the work, there are men and women in 49 other states that would. We all know which way the Daily News slants though, so it's no surprise that you'd find that article there.
 
[quote name='Retom7']It's such a stupid waste of time argument. There is no way they can be blocked from building there without preventing their freedom of religion. Sure, nobody is saying they can't be muslim, but they are saying that they can't buy a property and build a building using their own funds because they are muslim and muslims don't belong there. This argument is almost as stupid as being opposed to gay marriage. It's a fucking word. Gay people have absolutly no bearing on your life or ability to function in today's world. We have thousands of orphan kids who will NEVER have parents. Let them marry and have kids. Really, what's to prevent them from having kids naturally and still raising them in a gay home? Nothing. What's to prevent them from taking part in any and all activities married couples do? Nothing. Let's focus our resources on issues that matter... like getting our economy going again, working as a singular government, or finding a cure from cancer.[/QUOTE]

So I'm supposed to have freedom of economy, love a gay government, cure muslims and prevent cancer?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']So I'm supposed to have freedom of economy, love a gay government, cure muslims and prevent cancer?[/QUOTE]

You can spend however you want, no requirements to love a government regardless of orientation, cure sick muslims is required, unless you mean a cure for BEING muslim, in which case, you might have to resort to science for that one. Preventing cancer is different than curing, but you should also try to prevent it. It's bad news.
 
Read an article today that reminded me alot of this thread.

[quote name='mykevermin']The moment you realize that victims were muslims, people who worked and died in the WTC were muslims, police officers (at least one) who died in the response were muslims[/QUOTE]

Talat Hamdani traveled to Mecca to pray that her missing son, an EMT, was safe in the days after 9/11. She held out hope that his Muslim background had led to his detention as a suspect, considering it better than the alternative.

When part of his body was returned to her — his lower half shattered into 34 pieces — it was final proof he had indeed been killed when Islamic extremists brought down the World Trade Center. As Americans take sides over plans to build an Islamic cultural center and mosque blocks away, Hamdani says it feels personal.

"Why are we paying the price? Why are we being ostracized? Our loved ones died," she said at her Lake Grove, N.Y., home. "America was founded on the grounds of religious freedom," and opposition to the cultural center "is un-American. It's unethical. And it is wrong."

----------

rofl

[quote name='thrustbucket']If a Japanese religious building went up next to Pearl Harbor, people would be outraged. I'd also argue that there would be less "understanding" to go around than with this Mosque.[/QUOTE]

Jim Riches, a former New York Fire Department deputy chief whose son, Jimmy, was killed at the trade center, believes the dispute has nothing to do with religious freedom.

"We're not telling them not to practice their religion. ... It's about location, location, location," he said, asking why the mosque couldn't be built farther away from the land that he still considers a cemetery. "It's disrespectful. You wouldn't put a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor."

----------

[quote name='berzirk']There were mosques in the area before 9/11, they'll be there after. It's meant as a mosque and community center open to the public. What's wrong with that? I don't think it's even remotely insensitive because that assumes that all muslims should be apologizing for 9/11. Why? I didn't have anything to do with it. These people didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, they're trying to invest money into this building and location that the entire community can access, and spoke out against the attacks several times already.

To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what Peter Gadiel wants you to do.

But Peter Gadiel says he owes no apologies for singling one group out. Since his son, James, was killed at the trade center, Gadiel has argued publicly that all Muslims should share some collective guilt for what happened on 9/11.

"The fact is that Islam does not coexist well with other religions, and you can't separate that from Islam," the Kent, Conn., resident said, explaining his stand against the mosque. "If that sounds intolerant on my part, that's too bad."

---------------

And one guy speaks the truth.

Charles Wolf, who lost his wife, Katherine, at the trade center, says emotions among family members are especially raw right now.

"This is anniversary season. It's really, really hard," the Manhattanite said. "Passions are up and this is bringing up a lot of hurt in people."

He says he worries that any decision to respond to public pressure and move the mosque would be used by extremists to paint Americans as intolerant.

"The powers of evil were piloting those airplanes," he said of the Sept. 11 attackers.

Now, with the mosque dispute, "here is where we're falling into the terrorists' trap ... trying to tear each other apart. Good people fighting other good people — does that sound like evil at work?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100820/ap_on_re_us/us_nyc_mosque_families
 
[quote name='speedracer']Other stuff within the same distance to Ground Zero

Thank god I won't be able to pray in the mosque after hitting up the bookie before heading over to the strip club on my way to ground zero.[/QUOTE]


I'm curious, did an OTB extremist fly a plane into a building two blocks away which resulted in the destruction of another building? Then is OTB saying "we didn't sign off on that" and building an OTB there just to show that OTB can and will be peaceful?

I guess I will have to ask again, would the guy achieve the same peaceful results and service to the community if he moved the building site of the mosque? If so then why does he care so much that it be in THAT building, that was destroyed on 9/11? You would think that the importance of his mission would outweigh the symbolism of the site.

According to you guys this mosque will symbolize nothing about 9/11 and yet the guy is building it there for that exact reason. Then you say the area around ground zero is not hallowed ground, and yet he is building it there for that exact reason. If the mosque was really going to be that unaffected by its site, then moving it a few blocks away shouldn't be difficult of a decision. Although it is implied, I also better state that he has a right to build it there, but he should weigh the effects of his decision. Is all this controversy worth the spot? Is he going to sacrifice some good he would be doing for the community if he moved it a few blocks away? Probably not.

The only thing he is sacrificing if he moved it a few blocks away is that his mosque won't be located on an area that was affected by 9/11.
 
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American Muslims weren't responsible for 9/11. Al Qaeda was. This isn't an Al Qaeda mosque, this is an American Muslim mosque.

Knoell is equating American Muslims with Al Qaeda and I think that's wrong.

Once again, I'll note that there is a mosque 4 blocks away. Why does 2 blocks away from GZ have to be a Muslim free zone? What would satisfy Knoell?
 
[quote name='IRHari']American Muslims weren't responsible for 9/11. Al Qaeda was. This isn't an Al Qaeda mosque, this is an American Muslim mosque.

Knoell is equating American Muslims with Al Qaeda and I think that's wrong.

Once again, I'll note that there is a mosque 4 blocks away. Why does 2 blocks away from GZ have to be a Muslim free zone? What would satisfy Knoell?[/QUOTE]

A building or block that was not destroyed in the events of 9/11.

How am I equating American Muslims to Al Qaeda again?

Edit: I also love how you expanded not wanting a mosque right there to having to be "muslim free" lol. Good one.
 
[quote name='speedracer']So what's the angle here? He's a Hamas man and you're a Mot? Yassin dick you out of a $20 spot at the poker table? No rational uninvolved person gets all butt hurt about a religion and money (in a direct way, not in that limp wrist existential liberal way) unless they've got skin in the game.[/QUOTE] It'd be nice if for instance you'd forget the skew about religion but since you can't seem to understand or steer yourself away from that I'll gladly spell it out, NYC along with just about everywhere else in the country is in debt. Namely these people linked below are more deserving than any asshat building a mosque to get attention. This is why people are getting upset over 100 million dollar project because it's being slapped in their faces as they're dying. Not just people grieving for the dead but those that are still dying from 9/11.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/nyregion/10letters.html

Be a bigger dick.
You seem to have it down pat, I concede to your superiority in this regard.

[quote name='speedracer']Other stuff within the same distance to Ground Zero

Thank god I won't be able to pray in the mosque after hitting up the bookie before heading over to the strip club on my way to ground zero.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Retom7']Yeah... those memorial lap dances and dedication bets are essential for any respectful visit to the area.[/QUOTE]
Just to quickly address those two posts. I've never had a problem having religious moments in strip clubs or OTBs, especially when winning big. I'm sorry you guys aren't the type that support women who work in these places or the failing OTBs that will be shutting down.
 
Knoell, I think we all get that that's your position, but what many of us that have the opposing opinion are saying is, he could move it, but why the f*** should he? He didn't have anything to do with 9/11.

What is this, original sin? Adam makes a slip up at the beginning of humanity and so we're all born sinners. Some nutjobs that pray facing Makkah heinously murder people, now everyone else that prays facing Makkah is automatically off limits from building a mosque anywhere close to "ground zero" because they are terrorists too?

The Cordoba guys likely spent a ton of money planning this site, the blueprints for contruction, permits, etc. Just because someone is rightfully or wrongly offended does not mean we should be expected to cave in to their wishes. Until people started calling it the "Ground Zero Mosque" I didn't even think twice about it when I heard about it months ago, and a lot of people thought nothing of it. Once the radical groups that are opposed to any mosque construction and opposed to Islam in America coined the term, it became a wonderful political talking point.

So he's sacrificing a great deal of money and time if he were to move it at this point, because a few hypersensitive weiners hate swimming pools, auditoriums, and basketball courts that are in the same building as an Islamic prayer room. Saying he would sacrifice nothing is incorrect.
 
[quote name='Knoell']A building or block that was not destroyed in the events of 9/11.[/QUOTE]

Do you object to the mosque at the Pentagon?

[quote name='Knoell'] How am I equating American Muslims to Al Qaeda again?[/QUOTE]

You think its douchy for American Muslims to build a mosque so close to 9/11. But they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. There's nothing douchy about it.

It's only douchy if you think American Muslims had something in common with Al Qaeda. They did not.

[quote name='Knoell'] Edit: I also love how you expanded not wanting a mosque right there to having to be "muslim free" lol. Good one.[/QUOTE]

Muslims can be there they just shouldn't express their 1st amendment rights there (praying)? That would be douchy wouldn't it? Praying to Allah 2 blocks from 9/11 would be douchy?
 
[quote name='berzirk']Knoell, I think we all get that that's your position, but what many of us that have the opposing opinion are saying is, he could move it, but why the f*** should he? He didn't have anything to do with 9/11. [/QUOTE]

And I say he shouldn't HAVE to move it anywhere. If he weighs it in his mind and determines that the positives outweigh the negatives, then by all means build it. The problem I have is with how you guys factor in how the "nutjobs" opposed to this have no right to be. I agree the government has no right to intervene but the public can criticize it all they want, and I happen to believe the guy isn't thinking clearly on how it'll affect people. On one hand you guys are saying the guy has every right to build it because of the 1st amendment, which is true, but on the other hand you guys are saying that people can't or shouldn't be upset about this, and if you are, well then quite simply you are a bigot. Its hypocritical.

The Cordoba guys likely spent a ton of money planning this site, the blueprints for contruction, permits, etc. Just because someone is rightfully or wrongly offended does not mean we should be expected to cave in to their wishes. Until people started calling it the "Ground Zero Mosque" I didn't even think twice about it when I heard about it months ago, and a lot of people thought nothing of it. Once the radical groups that are opposed to any mosque construction and opposed to Islam in America coined the term, it became a wonderful political talking point.

So he's sacrificing a great deal of money and time if he were to move it at this point, because a few hypersensitive weiners hate swimming pools, auditoriums, and basketball courts that are in the same building as an Islamic prayer room. Saying he would sacrifice nothing is incorrect.

This is speculation, we don't know if he has started planning anything about the mosque that relates to the property specifically. At last I haven't seen anything, maybe you have?

Time? I'm sure it would be quicker to build it in a place less controversial seeing as he has to wait for law suits to settle and such in this place.

Money? Ok I will admit he would most likely lose a bit of money, but he is also incurring costs related to the controversy of the location.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Do you object to the mosque at the Pentagon?



You think its douchy for American Muslims to build a mosque so close to 9/11. But they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. There's nothing douchy about it.

It's only douchy if you think American Muslims had something in common with Al Qaeda. They did not.



Muslims can be there they just shouldn't express their 1st amendment rights there (praying)? That would be douchy wouldn't it? Praying to Allah 2 blocks from 9/11 would be douchy?[/QUOTE]


1. Sometimes misidentified as the "Pentagon Mosque," the non-denominational Pentagon Memorial Chapel maintained by the Pentagon Chaplain's Office is where department employees who practice Islam can meet to pray.
Located at the site where the hijacked American Airlines flight 77 struck the Defense Department headquarters, the chapel honors the memory of the 184 victims of the 9/11 attack.
The 100-seat chapel is available to Pentagon employees of all faiths to come in prayer as they wish throughout the day. The Pentagon Chaplain's Office schedules weekly religious services in the chapel for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Protestants and Episcopalians, as well as a daily Catholic Mass. Muslim worshippers can gather daily to offer prayers and can attend a Friday Prayer Service led by an Imam.
The office is "very open and very accommodating to the religious needs of the employees here in the building," he added.
The Muslim services at the Pentagon chapel have led some politicians to label it, incorrectly, as a mosque.

No religious icons or pictures are on display at the chapel. Religious symbols are brought in for religious services. A Torah, for example, housed in an ornate ark, is brought from behind curtains for use in the weekly Jewish service.



2. 9/11 was done by extremists in the name of Islam, extremist or not building a mosque in a location directly affected, (and by affected I mean destroyed) by 9/11 leaves a whole lot to be interpreted by a whole lot of different groups. This doesn't mean he is responsible for the views of those groups, but I'll ask one more time, Would building the mosque in a different area negatively affect his peaceful mission? Probably not. Would it positively diffuse the situation that extremists might use it as propaganda? Yep.

This is something he should weigh in his mind, and he may have already, but other Americans can simple disagree, and you have no right to generalize them all as bigots because they disagree with something.
 
Nobody said they can't be upset. We're saying their anger isn't justifiable. Your justifications for it don't make any sense.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Nobody said they can't be upset. We're saying their anger isn't justifiable. Your justifications for it don't make any sense.[/QUOTE]

Obviously people are upset, but thats just because they are bigots right?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Obviously people are upset, but thats just because they are bigots right?[/QUOTE]

Either that or they're criminally stupid, yes.
 
The reason why I call the radicals that are opposed to building the community center and mosque "nutjobs" (as I call the terrorists who killed people) is because it's not just a matter of disagreeing with their(your?) position, it's that I'm disagreeing with that position because it is purely an emotional response. We all agree that it is perfectly legal for them to build this Park 51 thing. So to be against it means you're against the law of the land. I think we would all agree that this kind of thing SHOULD be legal (again, not the emotional response of "it's too soon, it's hallowed ground, it's insensitive") as we'd expect any church, synagogue, mosque or place of worship to be allowed to be built where local laws allow.

That doesn't make my argument hypocritical at all. If there were a case where a guy wanted to build a mosque but zoning meant he couldn't, and I got on my soapbox and claimed oppression, when the law is clear, then I would be guilty of hypocrisy.

And what judge would allow an injunction to prevent construction of this community center, when there is nothing illegal about it? What would a person even sue for? There would be no legal hangup over the principle of a community center with a mosque inside.
 
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Ah so Muslims can pray, they just can't have a house of prayer near areas destroyed on 9/11. Got it. No double standard there.

[quote name='Knoell']Would it positively diffuse the situation that extremists might use it as propaganda? Yep. [/QUOTE]

Would moving it fuel the propaganda that extremists use to paint America as intolerant of Muslims? Yep.

[quote name='Knoell']This is something he should weigh in his mind, and he may have already, but other Americans can simple disagree, and you have no right to generalize them all as bigots because they disagree with something.[/QUOTE]

I don't think they're all bigots, but if Kirin Lemon wants to call them bigots (or 'criminally stupid') he has that right.

Freedom of speech Knoell. Beautiful thing.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']It'd be nice if for instance you'd forget the skew about religion but since you can't seem to understand or steer yourself away from that I'll gladly spell it out, NYC along with just about everywhere else in the country is in debt. Namely these people linked below are more deserving than any asshat building a mosque to get attention. This is why people are getting upset over 100 million dollar project because it's being slapped in their faces as they're dying. Not just people grieving for the dead but those that are still dying from 9/11.[/QUOTE]
So, the answer to the question of whether or not a mosque should be allowed to be built is dependent on money for responders? I mean, there was that bill the Democrats tried to pass that upped the money to over $7 billion for responders, but it was shot down by Republicans.

Naturally, a rational response lies in the opposition of the building of a mosque.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Obviously people are upset, but thats just because they are bigots right?[/QUOTE]

Whatever you want to call it. Obviously Muslims in general are being equated with the Muslim terrorists in one way or another or the opposition makes no sense.
 
[quote name='Knoell']This is speculation, we don't know if he has started planning anything about the mosque that relates to the property specifically. At last I haven't seen anything, maybe you have?[/QUOTE]

They bought the building awhile ago, have been running a makeshift mosque out of it already and fought for the right to tear it down so they can build their new building...are you honestly trying to say that they haven't planned one step beyond that?

[quote name='Knoell'](on moving the location) Would it positively diffuse the situation that extremists might use it as propaganda? Yep. [/QUOTE]

No, it wouldn't because it would just prove that Americans look down on Islam/Muslims and that they aren't on equal footing here.

Whichever way this turns out, the extremists will use it as propaganda. There is no avoiding it and no reason to base our actions off of how some crazy sect will take it.
 
[quote name='IRHari']


I don't think they're all bigots, but if Kirin Lemon wants to call them bigots (or 'criminally stupid') he has that right.

Freedom of speech Knoell. Beautiful thing.[/QUOTE]

I am late for work or else i would respond to you all, but I wanted to say quickly, is generalizing anyone that doesn't agree with building the mosque there, the same thing as generalizing all muslims to be terrorists?

Kirin Lemon can call the majority of the country bigots, but it wouldn't be true or tasteful to call all muslims terrorists?

Is that what I should take from that? I think both can be proven to be untrue, and yet you protect only one with the freedom of speech.
 
I didn't say his statements were true or tasteful. Kirin has the right to say it. Similarly, you have the right to call all muslims terrorists.

And I'm not the one who protects the freedom of speech. First Amendment baby. You and Dr. Laura need to read it. No one's freedom of speech is being threatened here brah.
 
[quote name='speedracer']So, the answer to the question of whether or not a mosque should be allowed to be built is dependent on money for responders? I mean, there was that bill the Democrats tried to pass that upped the money to over $7 billion for responders, but it was shot down by Republicans.

Naturally, a rational response lies in the opposition of the building of a mosque.[/QUOTE]

You redirect like a cheap anchor on Fox local news.

You ask why be interested in money, you get an answer. You call me a mot, I didn't even bother to look it up until now and I probably should have called you an idiot earlier had I realized that you thought I might be Jewish. Spin however you want, I can't think of anything left to bother with, it only took me 3 posts to lose interest in you.
 
[quote name='Knoell']is generalizing anyone that doesn't agree with building the mosque there, the same thing as generalizing all muslims to be terrorists?[/QUOTE]

No, of course it's not the same thing. This kind of sleight of hand is either willfully deceitful or hopelessly idiotic. It's the same sort of attitude that people evoke when defending people who make bigoted statements about race, sex, sexuality, etc.

Guess what? Yes, indeed, I am proudly intolerant of your intolerance of another group. That doesn't make me 'intolerant' just like you. It makes you a bigot and me a supporter of freedom and equality for all.

If we're not generalizing, get back to basics. Find a *single* argument why the mosque should not be built there. Find one that can not be reduced to a logic that equates all Islam with terrorism and is not a value judgment that's heavily skewed and ambiguous.

My side has the laws on its side as well as the principles of this nation. Your side has a foment that's focused, inaccurately, on a faith, and is fueled solely by emotive and illogical rhetoric. Nothing legal and nothing about the principles of this country. Let's stop playing charades, like this tete-a-tete has anything remotely resembling parity in terms of the strengths of the arguments.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']No, of course it's not the same thing. This kind of sleight of hand is either willfully deceitful or hopelessly idiotic. It's the same sort of attitude that people evoke when defending people who make bigoted statements about race, sex, sexuality, etc.

Guess what? Yes, indeed, I am proudly intolerant of your intolerance of another group. That doesn't make me 'intolerant' just like you. It makes you a bigot and me a supporter of freedom and equality for all.

[/QUOTE]

This is curious, I am proudly intolerant of your tolerance of generalizing America to a religiously intolerant nation of bigotry, but that isn't possibly the same as being proudly intolerant of peoples tolerance of generalizing all muslims to being terrorists. :roll:

Situation 1: You, or most people in this thread are generalizing all or most Americans to be religiously intolerant bigots.

Situation 2: Other individuals or groups are generalizing all or most Muslims to be terrorists.

You are tolerant of one, but not the other.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']You redirect like a cheap anchor on Fox local news.[/quote]
Well, someone has to try to put a rational face on your crap. If you're really swinging for the fences with money as the reason, you're probably sobbing while writing it.
You call me a mot, I didn't even bother to look it up until now and I probably should have called you an idiot earlier had I realized that you thought I might be Jewish.
It was meant to be an inside comment/joke if you were Jewish. It's one of those comments that confers juuuuuuuuuuust a little more than the dictionary leads you to believe. Obviously you missed that. But yea, this is a totally rational response to a joke. I guess you're passing on the Yassin comment because it was a more obvious joke and you can't feign faux outrage over my idiocy on that one.
Spin however you want, I can't think of anything left to bother with, it only took me 3 posts to lose interest in you.
You need a qualified mental heath professional.
 
[quote name='Knoell']This is curious, I am proudly intolerant of your tolerance of generalizing America to a religiously intolerant nation of bigotry, but that isn't possibly the same as being proudly intolerant of peoples tolerance of generalizing all muslims to being terrorists. :roll:

Situation 1: You, or most people in this thread are generalizing all or most Americans to be religiously intolerant bigots.

Situation 2: Other individuals or groups are generalizing all or most Muslims to be terrorists.

You are tolerant of one, but not the other.[/QUOTE]

This is what you can't grasp the nuance of, and why you remain mired in the depths of simplemindedness.

You are arguing against the religious *freedom* of others.
You are arguing against the religious *equality* of others.
(in the process, you're arguing against other ideals you stand for, including the free market, free enterprise, and the triumph of capitalist-run-enterprises over government red tape and expenditures, given than this is supposed to open by 9/12 - but I'll ignore all that for now.)

When I tell you that I have no tolerance for someone who is actively trying to curtail someone else's freedom and equality for wholly erroneous reasons, you better believe I am tolerant of one and not the other. What's not to get? I guess this explains your support for proposition 8 as well - in your mind, you have no qualms about hierarchically arranging American citizens by caste or creating classes of citizenry - only as long as enough people supporting those castes. If you don't see what's fundamentally and substantially flawed with that, then I don't know what you tell you (other than that you're a hopeless cause).
 
http://www.teapartypatriots.org/BlogPostView.aspx?id=3e3c9354-e295-4195-bb8a-0e50fd522cf9

First, Islam is NOT a religion, it is an ideology - the religious portion only encompasses 11 % (the qur'an) the rest is the Sira and Hadith and the closest parallel to Islam is the Ku Klux Klan.

STOP placating them - in addition, there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, regardless of what you've heard - from the mouth of the son of a well known Imam. Islam is as Islam does. And Regardless of what you might think, there is no such thing of a 'mild' muslim, even the 'quiet' ones who live on the street corner, drive the BMW and work in the dr's office...they go to mosque, satisfy the pillars, pray, etc...and the money they are giving, that is funding terror.

it is funding terror - and by your silence, YOU are funding terror. YOU are funding terror.

STOP THE SILENCE. STOP THE NONSENCE. STOP THE MUSLIM DAY - THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS. THEY DO NOT ABIDE BY OUR CONSTITUTION - THEY ARE NOT ONE OF US - YOU ARE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US - MAKE YOUR DECISION.

Ok, ok, fair enough. This isn't bigotry, you got me there.
 
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