The decline of Japanese Gaming

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Thats scary D:

Fortunately we have Nintendo actively working against progress :D[/quote]

I laughed and cringed at the same time at that statement, lol.

I think everyone's making good points though, portables may get digital distribution first because for the simple reason they're portable systems. Much easier to buy a huge memory stick and put several games on it rather than carry around a bunch of cartridges, UMDs or whatever media they'll use. Console games are far too big in my opinion to see digital distribution for a long time.
 
Unless they go to the episodic content like Penny Arcade. Plus, games are getting shorter and shorter. Hell, Halo 3 comes in at around 7 hours. There's a way they could get games that length onto XBLA or PSN.
 
Racing - Burnout series has been better than just about every game not GT.
Puzzle- Puzzle Quest, Crush PSP - just as good as any Japanese pzzule game in recent years.
Online game - Western game wins
3d platform - Aside from Mario it was Crash in PS1, Jak/ Rachket in PS2.
Music game - Guitar Hero and Rock Band been better than Japanese music games.
Sports - FIFA been catching up to Winning Eleven.
 
The sooner people stop treating Japan like some kind of holy-land, the better.

JRPGs have been long, boring slogs for YEARS now and most of their action games are same old same old.

Western devs are taking them to school in my book.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']Now that I think about it, there's an ideal solution:

US makes 3D games, Japan makes 2D games, Europe fucks off.[/quote]

Rockstar says 'Hi.'
 
I definitely play fewer Japanese games and more Western games these days. This isn't so much of a "quality of Japanese games is declining" thing (except in the case of SEGA and Square), it's more a matter of Blizzard, Bioware, etc. being so fucking good. Now, Japanese games will always make up a pretty large part of my library 'cause I'm a huge sucker for all the old Nintendo franchises, but looking back over the last few years, I can see that about 75% of my favourite games have come from North America.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think consoles will see digital distribution first especially now that the 360 has 60GB and the PS3 has 40 or 80GB. XBLA and PSN are good starters for that to happen.[/QUOTE]

True. I should have been more clear. I meant that I think portables will be the first to shit totally to digital distribution. I think we'll see a portable that has no hard copy software before we'll see such a console.
 
[quote name='Chacrana']I do wanna comment that this issue of EGM is pretty damn interesting, just because this is a legitimate topic that has some meaning.[/QUOTE]

It's a piece of shit xenophobic EGM article.
 
[quote name='B:L']It's a piece of shit xenophobic EGM article.[/QUOTE]

The topic is legitimate, but yes, EGM does seem completely against Japanese devs since they're basically droning on about how stale they are for the whole issue.
 
[quote name='pochaccoheaven']anyone got the link?
i would like to read it.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's online yet, but it's not one article - it's literally like the whole issue.
 
Xenophobic? Give me a break. Some people are just tired of the stale japanese games. Nothing to do with the culture.
 
Well I read through John Davison's bit in the magazine and his column really did read like a bash-fest... like he wasn't even willing to consider a positive. His head was quite far up his ass.
 
While that article was pretty xenophobic, the article with Sakaguchi, Amano, and Uematsu was pretty good. They also had an article with Itagaki that was good. The rest of the articles showed a pretty fair and balanced approach (and not in a Fox News way). Not every artcle is going to be lovey lovey to the people you want. All those guys at the roundtable discussion worked in Japan and I don't think we can say that for any of us. I liked the insider's view instead of the gamer's view that dominates these forums.
 
The interviews were solid, it was probably their best issue that I've gotten for free (since fall 2005).

I don't see why they claim the Japanese games are in trouble (Western games have a large suck ratio too), but I don't think they dislike Japanese games for being Japanese.
 
So all Japanese companies make JRPG's and casual games and western companies make FPS's and sports games. At least it's clear. As for me I've been tired of 99% of FPS's since they started and I will not play sports games. Course now a days I have time to play about 5 games a year it seems.
 
Reality's Fringe;4707844 said:
The sooner people stop treating Japan like some kind of holy-land, the better.

JRPGs have been long, boring slogs for YEARS now and most of their action games are same old same old.

Western devs are taking them to school in my book.
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Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:
 
[quote name='deszaras']Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:[/quote]


Yeah I'm not sure why people started throwing that word around. They even pay homage to some classic Japanese games in the back.
 
Personally I have little interest in Western games. FPS, WRPG, and sports games do nothing for me; I like JRPG, fighting games, and shoot-em-ups. I can't think of a Western-developed game I've played in the past few years except for Guitar Hero and Rock Band. There are definitely differences between Western and Japanese gaming as a whole, not just in the genres represented, but in art style, tone, and just general feeling.

Frankly I don't see any more stagnation in Japanese development than in Western development; there's plenty to go around. It may be true that Tales of Vesperia is the same game we were playing 10 years ago except with better graphics, but you could just as easily say the same of Mass Effect or Halo.
 
[quote name='deszaras']Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:[/QUOTE]

Did you actually read some of the articles?
 
[quote name='Chacrana']Did you actually read some of the articles?[/QUOTE]

I read them all, there's no xenophobia.

"xenophobia: an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange. "
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The articles are bashing Japanese games for being stale, being stuck in 1998 as Davison put it.

It has nothing to do with a fear or hatred of the games for being foreign. All these people grew up playing and loving Japanese games--they didn't all of a sudden turn into xenophobes and start hating everything Japanese.

They, like me, just grew sick of these games. They're mostly the same shit I was playing when I was a kid. I liked them then, but all these game with silly anime-ish plots, ridiculously large chested women etc. just don't appeal to me any more. Western games appeal to me more now.

It has nothing to do with being xenophobic, it's 100% that the bulk of Japanese games don't fit my adult gaming tastes. And that's the exact same feel I got from Davison's column and everything else in there.

Disliking something doesn't equal "unreasonable fear or hatred." I've always hated Anime too--has nothing to do with xenophobia. I don't like western cartoons either. Similarly, you can bash Japanese games without being xenophobic--it's just simply not liking the games which are very different and distinct from western games.
 
But the point is instead of going off on the Japanese for falling off, why not praise American developers instead? Why make things negative instead of positive?

Are Japanese games really falling off? Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami are releasing hit after hit. Don't forget 2008 is the year of the fighting game and those sure as hell ain't coming from the West.

Now because those games don't fit the exact mold that gamers want, people bash them. Do Japanese games suck now? No, your tastes changed. That doesn't make Japanese games suck. It makes you an adult. I'm sure we all did things when we were younger that we don't do now. Does that mean Garbage Pail Kids and baseball cards suck? No. It just means we moved on.

For the record, I love any game as long as it's fun. That can related to difficulty, gameplay mechanics, graphics, or whatever catches my fancy.

Oh, and for the games being exactly the same as they were ten years ago, DMC 4 and MGS 4 beg to differ. They both offered gaming experiences that are only available on this or the last generation of consoles. Compare Lost Planet to any other third person shooter from ten years ago. Can you really say that it's the same experience? The controls are silky smooth and the graphics, while not the best of this generation, are pretty damn good.

I think more people need to actually play a game without giving consideration to where it was developed. I see too many people in these forums that admittedly don't want to play anything Japanese. That's kind of where the xenophobic thing came from. It's not only present in the article but on these boards.
 
[quote name='depascal22']But the point is instead of going off on the Japanese for falling off, why not praise American developers instead? Why make things negative instead of positive? [/quote]

Negative stories are better press than positive ones. If it had been framed as an article on the rise of western gaming I doubt I or anyone else would have started a thread on it. It's still not xenophobia.

Are Japanese games really falling off? Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami are releasing hit after hit.
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All you have to do is look at sales charts and see how they're western dominated (aside from Nintendo) compared to how they used to be totally dominated by Japanese games.

Otherwise, it's just opinion. I used to play a ton of Japanese games, now I play hardly any (SCIV is the one I've bought this year and looks to be the only one I buy in 2008).

It's not a case that Western games have risen and I'm playing them equally to Japanese games. It's that my interest in Japanese games has fallen AND my interest in western games has risen.

That doesn't make Japanese games suck. It makes you an adult. I'm sure we all did things when we were younger that we don't do now. Does that mean Garbage Pail Kids and baseball cards suck? No. It just means we moved on.
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Agreed. I wouldn't say Japanese games suck--nor does the EGM article. It just says that--like Garbage Pale Kids and Baseball Cards--Japanese games for the most part haven't evolved to meet some of our tastes as we're pushing 30. Western games have. There are still great Japanese games, just many fewer that meet my current tastes than in the past when I was younger.

I think more people need to actually play a game without giving consideration to where it was developed. I see too many people in these forums that admittedly don't want to play anything Japanese. That's kind of where the xenophobic thing came from. It's not only present in the article but on these boards.
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But not in this thread or the EGM article. Everyone here is talking from experience. I try Japanese games often, I just don't like many of them. But with demos, rentals etc. it's easy to try a lot of games. And I'll keep doing so as I don't want to miss great games. And I still have hopes that Japanese developers will snap out of this rut they're in and start making more games that appeal to my tastes.
 
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[quote name='Chacrana']Did you actually read some of the articles?[/quote]

I read the whole damn magazine, cover to cover.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']All you have to do is look at sales charts and see how they're western dominated (aside from Nintendo) compared to how they used to be totally dominated by Japanese games.[/quote]

Madden would like to kill your argument. Madden will never be game of the year material but more people line up to buy that than Halo, GTA, and Mario. At the same time, Psychonauts and Okami barely even sell. You just can't use sales numbers to argue quality.

Street Fighter II used to be the game that ruled them all. Before the sequel came out, arcades died and interest in 2D fighters went with it. Street Fighter III culminated with Third Strike but the game didn't sell a tenth of it's SFII. Was Third Strike a tenth as good? No. Hell, it's even better in most regards. Our tastes changed but the quality of the games didn't. Hell, now that Soul Calibur paved the way (which sold a crap ton of games in the first week) don't be surprised to see Street Fighter IV sell a couple million games and bring people back to fighting games.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Madden would like to kill your argument. Madden will never be game of the year material but more people line up to buy that than Halo, GTA, and Mario. At the same time, Psychonauts and Okami barely even sell. You just can't use sales numbers to argue quality.[/quote]

I wasn't arguing quality, just that western games surpassed Japanese games in market dominance (which was a part of the EGM discussions). And Madden is usually a damn fine game year in and year out--maybe not game of the year but it wins a lot of game of the month awards and sports game of the year awards. I'm not a fan as modern sports sims are too realistic and complicated for my liking, but Madden is a quality franchise for fans of the genre.

Anyway, as I said, the quality argument is entirely subjective and whether you're tastes lean toward Japanese or western games will depend largely on what genre's you like. I don't like JRPGs and I'm not big on action games or schumps so I'm limited to the occasional fighting game, puzzle game, platformer etc. While I love FPS games and western RPGs, stuff like GTAIV etc. so I spend vastly more of my time on Western games.

So I don't debate that stuff as it's totally subjective as to which style of games you like more. But opinions on quality aside there's not question the market has shifted greatly towards western developed games--somewhat last generation and much more this gen.
 
I think the biggest issue Japanese devs are running into is the fact that there games take so freaking long to make, and Western Devs have better technology.

I think those were two points made in the article as well.

And I also said my interest is declining, Most of the games that come out now from Japan are either Fighters or JRPGs, which I could care less for. I am a big action game fan and it seems like Americans are doing that much better these days, especially Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sucker Punch and Sony Santa Monica. God of War was my favorite game last gen, and although Devil May Cry was awesome, I have trouble playing it after God of War because God of War is so much better technically with the camera and graphics. And, it actually has a story I can understand. Which is another problem with Japanese Devs, I hardly can ever understand the story!

However, I did really like Metal Gear Solid, and the camera was sometimes annoying, but not too much, but the story was still awesome and the gameplay was amazing as well.
 
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I read the entire magazine also. It was a good read and I have to agree that Japanese games are getting stale. Take a look at E3. Besides Resident Evil 5 there wasn't much to be excited about.
 
A big point being made was that Japanese developers are loathe to reuse game engines, dramatically slowing down development time and increasing costs. I don't know how much of that is true, but it's a point worth considering.

Of note is that Square is licensing the Unreal Engine for The Last Remnant. Also, that Crystal Tools is supposed to be an engine that will get some attention. We'll see how well those 2 developments come out.
 
Two of the biggest RPGs out this year use old engine


FFIV uses same engine as FFIII
Persona 4 uses same engine as Persona 3

Koei also isnt shy about using the same engine for their games. NIS also uses the same formula for their games. I am also guessing Mana-Khemia 2 and Ar tonelico II used the same engine as the original
 
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While your point is fair, 62t, I'm going to draw a hair splitting distinction between reusing an engine for the same type of game and using the same engine for different games.

In the case of a P4 or NIS games, they ARE basically the same game, so reusing the first engine they built specifically for the first game is fine.

Using an engine historically used for shooter type games (or any multi-use engine) for RPGs is another matter. Yes, I'm sure the Unreal engine kicks ass and is flexible as hell, but I have to assume that an RPG built truly ground up is going to be a better game.
 
[quote name='pochaccoheaven']why was nintendo considered an exception?[/QUOTE]

Because they're the only exception in terms of still being a dominant sales force. They give them credit, but one developer can't carry an east vs. west game development debate.

Plus, they're not doing much for "hardcore" gamers. Their franchises are just as stale as any other japanese developer IMO and their other hits are casual games not aimed at gamers. But more power to them as they're making a killing doing so.
 
my interest in japanese game development increased mainly because of the rise of the west. boundaries will be pushed and gamers will win. team ico's next project has space reserved in my dreams :bouncy:
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Because they're the only exception in terms of still being a dominant sales force. They give them credit, but one developer can't carry an east vs. west game development debate.

Plus, they're not doing much for "hardcore" gamers. Their franchises are just as stale as any other japanese developer IMO and their other hits are casual games not aimed at gamers. But more power to them as they're making a killing doing so.[/quote]

rofl, malstrom is right about the hardcore.
 
I don't think Japanese gaming is dying. I mean I think Rpgs are just fucking great and all these action games are also amazing. Also, don't forget Street Fighter, Tekken and Soul Calibur. Other than RPGs there are so many other genres of gaming that the Japanese have made. I also think Bayonetta is looking fandamtastic. Also, what 62t said about Persona 3.
 
For me, the Japanese have always succeeded in art direction. My favorite Japanese games have always been pleasing to the eye. All Tom Clancy games look the same to me. 1up constantly makes jokes about bald space marines created by western developers and I can't blame them. It's usually either that or high fantasy nonsense. It really turns me off. The games can be really great, but they have a big uphill struggle with me. Japan may release tons of anime crap but they do get their LocoRocos, Pac-Man championship editions, and Street Fighter 4s.

I've seen glimmers of hope with Bioware, (Sonic Chronicles fits artistically with the Sonic games while still being distinct) Insomniac, and 2k Boston.

I do think creatively, Japan could stand to improve but I do have a bias towards them.
 
[quote name='GuardianE']I'll definitely concede Mass Effect and KOTOR. There are always exceptions. Like, in the fighting genre, Def Jam: Fight for NY came out of nowhere as a capable fighting game. I'm just going majority wise.
[/quote]


Def Jam: Fight for NY was developed by Aki Corp., a Japanese company.
 
I think that the quality of the interviews was poor. Especially Itagaki's, where he was apparently drunk when EGM interviewed him.
 
I noticed about two years ago that an overwhelming majority of games that interested me were non-Japanese. It was quite a shock to me considering that I'd always grown up with the idea that Japanese games were unquestionably superior in mechanics, design, story, art, music, creativity, you name it.

Things are changing. But I hesitate to say that Japanese game development has declined in quality. I simply think the rest of the world has stepped up and proven that they have just as much to contribute to gaming.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']For some reason U.S. developers tend to hire 14-year-olds to head their art teams.[/quote]

They sure ass hell aren't working at Blizzard, otherwise Diablo III would be much darker. :)

Strange considering we have some of the best artists in the world whose style could be adapted in video game form. Just open a comic book.
 
[quote name='rapsodist']
Things are changing. But I hesitate to say that Japanese game development has declined in quality. I simply think the rest of the world has stepped up and proven that they have just as much to contribute to gaming.[/QUOTE]

Again, to clarify by using decline in the title I just meant in terms of popularity, innovation and importance.

I don't think quality has declined, I think it's just stayed the same while American developers have done a better job of making games that appeal to my (and many other's) adult gaming tastes.

A lot of Japanese games are stuff I would have loved 10-15 years ago, but just don't care much about now that I'm older.
 
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