Would Nintendo be better of as a game-maker? (A What If...? Thread)

Ronin317

Ronin317

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I was going through a box of comics last night, and found one of my old "What if...?" comics from Marvel (it was "what if the punisher had killed spiderman?", in case anyone wondered). So I thought it would make a good 'series' of discussions for CAG, maybe weekly.

So the first thing that came to mind was "What if Nintendo was a game developer only?"

Now, allow me to say, I love Nintendo. In fact, I have no hard allegiance to any of the 3 console makers, so this isn't wishful thinking or anything like that, as I own a 360 and PS3 right now, and sold my Wii (which my Dreamcast got more playing time than). I don't want this to be a bashing discussion, but rather something more of a thoughts and ideas type of thread.

So on to the topic...First and foremost, Nintendo would be smart to look at everything Sega has done and run the opposite direction from most of it. VF4 and Yakuza and a few other things aside, they're a mess (but that is a topic for another thread).

Thinking about this, Nintendo has a dozen home-grown franchises that have very high quality games, and could most definitely expand upon that. Do you think they would also become a peripheral dev? Like what if the Wii motion controls were an add-on to the PS3 or 360 (or in a different world, Sega's Dreamcast 2 or something)? Super Mario Galaxy across all platforms would be a mega success. Nintendo could acquire Sega, rebuild the Sonic franchise, and revive the AM2 division. What about Smash Bros. across platforms?

without this becoming a 'blog' or whatever, as I want to leave more to discussion...but could Nintendo become the biggest or most successful software dev out there if they left home consoles (let's leave the DS out of this) behind??
 
Not really. There success with the DS and Wii has came through hardware innovations--touch controls and motion controls respectively.

Harder to do that as a game-maker since peripherals tend not to sell as well compared to accessories that everyone who buys the hardware has.

I don't like what Nintendo has done with the DS and especially the Wii and I was a big fan of their games before, but they're making a ton of money with their current direction and it would have been harder to accomplish as a game-maker.
 
"What if Nintendo was a game developer only?"

CAG member Liquid 2 wouldn't have been pinned down and brutally punched in the belly by angry nerds.
 
no. when was the last time they came up with anything new? they have a ton of ips they could pull frm but all you see from them is the same usual suspects. id love to see someone elses take on many on their ips but that wont ever happen.
 
I know that at one point Microsoft approached Nintendo about buying the company and apparently it was seriously considered but of course Nintendo declined their offer. They almost were a software only company (though I imagine Nintendo handheld hardware would of been produced by Microsoft).
 
From a business perspective I have to agree that what they're doing now is brilliant. They're selling absolute garbage hardware for as much as real hardware costs, and managing to sell MORE of it than the competition. It would be like if someone sold a DVD player for $300 that required you to wave your arms around to control it instead of using a remote, and it outsold Blu Ray players...only possibly worse than that.

From OUR perspective Nintendo's lost it. At this point I'd like to see the team that did Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat/ Super Mario Galaxy get to be unleashed on current generation hardware, with the same kind of budget and time they get now. And I'd like to see the rest of Nintendo get to go back to making games rather than edutainment titles.

Of course as mentioned, Sega is a warning about all this. It seems like they're starting to get it back together. Virtua Fighter, apparently Yakuza, and Valkarie Chronicles (I know it's all misspelled) along with some other titles show that maybe they're getting it back together, but until recently they've been flailing about.

I think it's also apparent than this DS/Wii garbage actually isn't new. Nintendo's always had a gimicky streak in them. It's just that in the past, it was always easy to ignore. No one cared that R.O.B. was silly, or the Gameboy Printer worthless, etc., because they didn't force those on us as a primary game interface. The DS/Wii are the same crap they've always done in that regard, only forced as a primary interface, AND marketed brilliantly.

I'm also sick of hearing how the Wii's controls are "simpler" than a standard pad. No they are not. They may be less intimidating just because it looks like its a remote control. I can understand that-and developers of real games do need to make sure their games are accessible to almost EVERYONE, which is usually not the case now. BUT they actually have roughly the same number of buttons, and the Wii's accelerometer stuff is actually more complicated, not less...it's just marketing/perception.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']From a business perspective I have to agree that what they're doing now is brilliant. They're selling absolute garbage hardware for as much as real hardware costs, and managing to sell MORE of it than the competition. It would be like if someone sold a DVD player for $300 that required you to wave your arms around to control it instead of using a remote, and it outsold Blu Ray players...only possibly worse than that.

From OUR perspective Nintendo's lost it. At this point I'd like to see the team that did Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat/ Super Mario Galaxy get to be unleashed on current generation hardware, with the same kind of budget and time they get now. And I'd like to see the rest of Nintendo get to go back to making games rather than edutainment titles.

Of course as mentioned, Sega is a warning about all this. It seems like they're starting to get it back together. Virtua Fighter, apparently Yakuza, and Valkarie Chronicles (I know it's all misspelled) along with some other titles show that maybe they're getting it back together, but until recently they've been flailing about.

I think it's also apparent than this DS/Wii garbage actually isn't new. Nintendo's always had a gimicky streak in them. It's just that in the past, it was always easy to ignore. No one cared that R.O.B. was silly, or the Gameboy Printer worthless, etc., because they didn't force those on us as a primary game interface. The DS/Wii are the same crap they've always done in that regard, only forced as a primary interface, AND marketed brilliantly.

I'm also sick of hearing how the Wii's controls are "simpler" than a standard pad. No they are not. They may be less intimidating just because it looks like its a remote control. I can understand that-and developers of real games do need to make sure their games are accessible to almost EVERYONE, which is usually not the case now. BUT they actually have roughly the same number of buttons, and the Wii's accelerometer stuff is actually more complicated, not less...it's just marketing/perception.[/quote]


ahmen brother down with the wii!!!!!!! but i have to say i do like the ds and hate myself for it but its a fun handheld system. i still say the wiimote is just this gens powerglove.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']From OUR perspective Nintendo's lost it. [/QUOTE]

Continue to speak for everyone, that's what gamer group think is all about.

[quote name='lokizz']ahmen brother down with the wii!!!!!!! [/QUOTE]

Lokizz joining in the chorus.
 
Man, Wii hate is so cool. "Waving your arms around" I wish I was that awesome. Sadly, I like my Wii, so I can't be that cool. It might not get as much playtime as my 360, but it's got some advantages.

To the OP, Are you fucking kidding? Better off as a software developer? They're selling like gangbusters, millions of units, and making a profit on each one. You've got to be smoking something to think they'd be better off.
 
Hey fatgets.

Its a WHAT IF thread.

Assume that they are a game-maker only, how would that affect the market, current gen, etc. etc.

Discussion goes from there.

Also, wii sucks.
 
I like games, so the Wii isn't for me, simple as that. I'm not it's target market of people who don't like games (not that it doesn't have some decent or even a few great games, but that's not its market).
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']I like games, so the Wii isn't for me, simple as that. I'm not it's target market of people who don't like games (not that it doesn't have some decent or even a few great games, but that's not its market).[/QUOTE]

That's just silly. It's a game console, you just don't like the TYPE of games on it. Nor do I, which is why I ditched it over a year ago.

But no reason to go overboard in hate. I just didn't like motion controls, lack of HD (after getting an HDTV which I didn't have when I got the Wii), crappy online system and all the good games being Nintendo franchises that I was getting sick of after playing for 25+ years.

Not for me, but nothing wrong with it. Many people, gamers and "non-gamers" alike enjoy it. That's why we have multiple consoles--there's something for everyone.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That's just silly. It's a game console, you just don't like the TYPE of games on it. Nor do I, which is why I ditched it over a year ago.

But no reason to go overboard in hate. I just didn't like motion controls, lack of HD (after getting an HDTV which I didn't have when I got the Wii), crappy online system and all the good games being Nintendo franchises that I was getting sick of after playing for 25+ years.

Not for me, but nothing wrong with it. Many people, gamers and "non-gamers" alike enjoy it. That's why we have multiple consoles--there's something for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I sort of agree with that, and would with any other system, and think that anyone who claims there are no good games for system x is lying or an idiot...but the Wii really is focused on something other than games. And I think touch/accelerometer controls really are quantifiably inferior to traditional controls. I mean the Playstation has the accelerometer half of the Wii's controls...and no one uses it. I even turned them off in Resistance, where at least it's vaguely creative.
 
[quote name='Ronin317']
I don't want this to be a bashing discussion...[/quote]You new here, man?

[quote name='Ronin317'] So on to the topic...First and foremost, Nintendo would be smart to look at everything Sega has done and run the opposite direction from most of it. VF4 and Yakuza and a few other things aside, they're a mess (but that is a topic for another thread).[/quote] VF4 and Yakuza. And assorted Platinum games. And The Conduit. And House of the Dead. And Valkyria Chronicles.

So really, pretty much that they publish that isn't Sonic is good (or at least, looking good in the case of The Conduit and some of the Platinum games).

[/not helping]
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']t...but the Wii really is focused on something other than games.
[/quote]

That's the part I said was silly. It's still games. Wii sports is a game. Wii Fit is a game. The licensed, kiddy shovelware are games.

Just not games that you or I have any interest in.

And I think touch/accelerometer controls really are quantifiably inferior to traditional controls. e.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But controls I don't like don't make the system devoid of games. Just devoid of games I personally want to play.
 
No, I don't think Nintendo would make a good 'pure' game developer. A lot of their most amazing products come from extra experimentation and incubation time given to the various teams around the company. These teams would have no such luxury time were Nintendo not so big.
 
Why did Punisher want to kill Spiderman, and how did he do it?

Personally I don't see it happening. Punisher doesn't have superpowers so his only chance is use his knowledge of tactics to ambush Spiderman and take him by surprise. Except that's impossible because Spiderman has both super-agility, super-speed, and (this is the clincher) spider-sense.
 
[quote name='camoor']Why did Punisher want to kill Spiderman, and how did he do it?[/quote]

Answer:

A - Spiderman was chasing Punisher for nine days, trying to fuck him.
B - Punisher used his superpowers as Gun Man to kill Spiderman. With a gun.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup'] but the Wii really is focused on something other than games. [/QUOTE]

What are they focused on then?

[quote name='Wolfpup']And I think touch/accelerometer controls really are quantifiably inferior to traditional controls. [/QUOTE]

Please quantify the inferiority for us.
 
Push the A button 100 times really fast. See how many times it registers.

Shake the Penis 100 times really fast. See how many times it registers.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That's the part I said was silly. It's still games. Wii sports is a game. Wii Fit is a game. The licensed, kiddy shovelware are games.

Just not games that you or I have any interest in.



Agreed. But controls I don't like don't make the system devoid of games. Just devoid of games I personally want to play.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...I mean I'm coming off like the type of system wars fanboi I hate, but I guess I'm just using "games" as "Interactive entertainment for people who like interactive entertainment", excluding casual/minigames/edutainment/stuff for people who don't like interactive entertainment.

[quote name='crystalklear64']Push the A button 100 times really fast. See how many times it registers.

Shake the Penis 100 times really fast. See how many times it registers.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that...doesn't even cover all of it, but is more than enough.
 
[quote name='camoor']Why did Punisher want to kill Spiderman, and how did he do it?

Personally I don't see it happening. Punisher doesn't have superpowers so his only chance is use his knowledge of tactics to ambush Spiderman and take him by surprise. Except that's impossible because Spiderman has both super-agility, super-speed, and (this is the clincher) spider-sense.[/quote]

If I recall, as I didn't read it when I found it last week, and it's been literally 12 or so years since I have, but I think he sniped him because he thought that Spidey was a criminal.

[quote name='The Crotch']You new here, man?

VF4 and Yakuza. And assorted Platinum games. And The Conduit. And House of the Dead. And Valkyria Chronicles.

So really, pretty much that they publish that isn't Sonic is good (or at least, looking good in the case of The Conduit and some of the Platinum games).

[/not helping][/quote]
heheh...I just thought hopefully if I disclaimer-ed the discussion, it wouldn't sink into the usual Wii is 5uxx0rs!!!! shit. Or at least not as quickly.

But you're right about Sega...I was simplifying it too much. Looking back at the thread title and original post, perhaps I should have sat on it a little more and put up something a bit more refined.

[quote name='Quillion']Man, Wii hate is so cool. "Waving your arms around" I wish I was that awesome. Sadly, I like my Wii, so I can't be that cool. It might not get as much playtime as my 360, but it's got some advantages.

To the OP, Are you fucking kidding? Better off as a software developer? They're selling like gangbusters, millions of units, and making a profit on each one. You've got to be smoking something to think they'd be better off.[/quote]

That's why this is a "what if...?" thread. Sorry if you don't get the concept.

Nintendo is definitely selling hardware like hotcakes, but they also make some damn high quality games, so it was just a thought about what they could do if they were to spread out onto other platforms. This was not a slight against the Wii, DS, or anything, as I have love for nintendo, and miss the wii I sold.

But it does reflect that Nintendo still knows what they are doing in the industry, across the board. It would be awesome to see what they could do on a system like the PS3 or 360
 
[quote name='Ronin317']If I recall, as I didn't read it when I found it last week, and it's been literally 12 or so years since I have, but I think he sniped him because he thought that Spidey was a criminal. [/quote]

I did have fun with Frank taking out some super powered people in Garth Ennis' books, but those were kind of over the top, and I'm not sure necessarily representative of anything.

It was kind of cool how he handled Daredevil though (kind of Batman like in a way).
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']I did have fun with Frank taking out some super powered people in Garth Ennis' books, but those were kind of over the top, and I'm not sure necessarily representative of anything.

It was kind of cool how he handled Daredevil though (kind of Batman like in a way).[/quote]

5 words. Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe. It's the definition of over the top, insanely ludicrous, and I loved every second of it.
 
[quote name='Ronin317']That's why this is a "what if...?" thread. Sorry if you don't get the concept.

Nintendo is definitely selling hardware like hotcakes, but they also make some damn high quality games, so it was just a thought about what they could do if they were to spread out onto other platforms. This was not a slight against the Wii, DS, or anything, as I have love for nintendo, and miss the wii I sold.

But it does reflect that Nintendo still knows what they are doing in the industry, across the board. It would be awesome to see what they could do on a system like the PS3 or 360[/quote]
Nah, man. I get the concept, it's just that it's fucking stupid. Your thesis question is " Would Nintendo be better of as a game-maker" and the answer, clearly, is no.

So the games would be similar to what we've had with shinier graphics? Not that I have a problem with shinier graphics, mind you, but that and better online and media integration are the only new things the 360 and PS3 bring to the party. The Wii tried something vastly different and is being rewarded for it.

So here's my what if:
The industry would be less without Nintendo innovating with the control schemes. Not that all waggle games are good, mind you, it can simply be a throwaway-me-too add in. It's just different, in an industry that was beginning to stagnate.
 
Dude...angry much?

More processing power doesn't simply mean shinier games. I'm just thinking what Nintendo could do with more horsepower in terms of gameplay and physics and such. Stagnant innovation aside, it was a thought. Perhaps it would have been better stated as "what if Nintendo developed cross platform" or something like that.
 
[quote name='Ronin317']Dude...angry much?

More processing power doesn't simply mean shinier games. I'm just thinking what Nintendo could do with more horsepower in terms of gameplay and physics and such. Stagnant innovation aside, it was a thought. Perhaps it would have been better stated as "what if Nintendo developed cross platform" or something like that.[/QUOTE]

I think the point is that it's obvious that there's now way Nintendo would be better off.

Now if you asked would gamers be better off, then you may have more of a case. I still enjoy some of the Nintendo franchises (namely, Mario, Metroid and non-cel shaded Zelda) and would love to have those franchises in HD with current gen graphics and traditionally etc. I enjoyed them before I sold my Wii, but I'd have liked them even more if they'd been in HD and not had waggle. And I'd love to see Nintendo focusing exclusively on making those kind of games and not stuff like Wii Fit, Wii Play, Brain Age etc.

But for the company, they've jumped back on top by staying in the hardware business and doing what they're doing so clearly they wouldn't have been better off.
 
[quote name='Ronin317']Dude...angry much?

More processing power doesn't simply mean shinier games. I'm just thinking what Nintendo could do with more horsepower in terms of gameplay and physics and such. Stagnant innovation aside, it was a thought. Perhaps it would have been better stated as "what if Nintendo developed cross platform" or something like that.[/QUOTE]

Noooo kidding. I'm absolutely beyond sick of this apologist contingent that claims more power just means better graphics. That's either INSANE or a statement from someone who has no grasp on the history of games AT ALL. (And of course the logical extension of that is, why aren't you demanding Nintendo use Atari 2600 class hardware?)

First:
-There's nothing wrong with better graphics (also sick of the claim that it's shallow to want things to look good). Better graphics are more immersive-and of course better doesn't have to mean more realistic, for those that claim that.
-But more to the point, better hardware has ALWAYS led to new types of possible interactive experiences. ALWAYS. EVERY single generation of consoles has had games that in no possible way could have been done on the previous. That's at least as true of the Playstation 3/Xbox 360 generation as of previous ones. If anything I've felt like there's been a bigger jump from the PS2/Wii generation to the PS3/360 generation than between the PS1/PS2, or NES/SNES, and those were plenty big.

There's also nothing wrong with really polished, great looking and playing versions of games that COULD have been done on older hardware! (On top of all that, the idea that the Wii is cheaper to develop for is *technically* false. It's actually cheaper to make the same game on a PS3/360 than a Wii, since less time has to be spent optimizing it. It's just more expensive generally to make a current gen game than a last gen game.)
 
Wolfpup already posted pretty much what I was going to say, which is that from a business perspective Nintendo is doing really well. They've fooled a lot of people into overpaying for inferior hardware.

From a gamer's perspective, maybe it would be better if Nintendo just made games, though. It would at least be better than what they're doing now, which is exiting the gaming business.

And by that I mean that they're focusing more on shit I don't care about as a gamer, like Wii Fit, Wii Play, and Brain Age. Remember when Nintendo used to be on the cutting edge of gaming?
 
Yeah, and...geez, look at Super Mario Galaxy. That game is still cutting edge. They (hopefully) still have people there that can make games, but it's a shame to see them wasted on Wii Fit and the like.

I wonder if they've had much of an exodus of creative talent from the company? I know if I were a developer, and had enough clout that I wasn't too worried about just having work, I'd want to go somewhere I could work on at least a game game.

Although the same probably holds true for developers who are forced to just keep making one franchise over and over again. Seems like that would lead to creative burn out sooner or later.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']Yeah, and...geez, look at Super Mario Galaxy. That game is still cutting edge. They (hopefully) still have people there that can make games, but it's a shame to see them wasted on Wii Fit and the like.

I wonder if they've had much of an exodus of creative talent from the company? I know if I were a developer, and had enough clout that I wasn't too worried about just having work, I'd want to go somewhere I could work on at least a game game.

Although the same probably holds true for developers who are forced to just keep making one franchise over and over again. Seems like that would lead to creative burn out sooner or later.[/QUOTE]
That's a good question. I haven't heard much about that. Maybe someone here has firsthand knowledge of what the developers are thinking?
 
I don't really like the idea of Link and Mario being rendered in the Unreal 3 engine or Cryengine. It would be, disturbing to say the least.
 
[quote name='pop311']I don't really like the idea of Link and Mario being rendered in the Unreal 3 engine or Cryengine. It would be, disturbing to say the least.[/QUOTE]

It wouldn't need to be that engine and it wouldn't be disturbing. You're falling for the trap of equating more power with more realistic visuals. The graphics could be better, that doesn't mean they'd be more realistic. There are countless examples to point to, but the obvious one is just to point out that Super Mario Galaxy looks far better than Super Mario 64, not more disturbing at all. It could also be a better playing game, since we have no idea what ideas might have been cut by that team, or what ideas they might have come up with given more power.
 
Dead Rising is the only current-gen gameplay concept that I can think of that couldnt be done on PS2 grade power, controls and storage aside.

The only thing I'm seeing with the increase in power is that games are getting significantly worse.

I want harsh power constraints on developers.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Dead Rising is the only current-gen gameplay concept that I can think of that couldnt be done on PS2 grade power, controls aside.

The only thing I'm seeing with the increase in power is that games are getting worse.

I want the harshest power contraints possible.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you really thought about what you just posted.
 
Certainly its not an absolute. I would want them locked to PS2 power for home consoles and midway between GBA and DS for portables, enough to give them 2D but not enough for them to try 3D.
 
Yikes...you think Dead Rising is the only current gen game that couldn't be done on the last gen, and games are getting worse?!?
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Feel free to add to the list of current-gen games whose gameplay cannot be recreated with PS2 processing power. I'm willing to consider them.[/QUOTE]

That's about as silly of a request as demanding we find water that's wet. I mean someone could arbitrarily do it for you...but you haven't been exposed to many games if you truly believe that. I think it would be near impossible to find a crop of LAUNCH GAMES for any given platform in any generation that didn't include things not possible on previous generations.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Dead Rising is the only current-gen gameplay concept that I can think of that couldnt be done on PS2 grade power, controls and storage aside.

The only thing I'm seeing with the increase in power is that games are getting significantly worse.

I want harsh power constraints on developers.[/quote]

Well the Total War series couldn't be done on a PS2 grade system unless it used a lot of 2D like the first game in the series, though I have my doubts that the Total War games could even run on the 360 or PS3.

One of the things that really annoys me about the 360 (and I don't own a PS3 but I'm pretty sure it has the same issue) is the constant framerate drops and screen tearing that happens in games when Nintendo is able to release their Wii games with a silky smooth frame rate and no screen tearing. All these "next gen" developers should be ashamed of themselves.
 
You have to realize that DMK is an idiot who can't accept that gaming has passed him by who should stay off the internet and in his closet playing old games no one gives a shit about anymore.

Then you can just chuckle at his nonsensical posts and go on rather than getting in pointless arguments.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Dead Rising is the only current-gen gameplay concept that I can think of that couldnt be done on PS2 grade power, controls and storage aside.[/QUOTE]
You're definitely someone's alt. account.
 
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