Note: This is really, really long. Just skip it if you aren't interested (it's just a long, peaceful response to Motoki, if he happens to see it). If you do happen to read it, the purpose of the post will be lost by just reading a part of it out of context. Then again, I doubt anyone will read this, so no worries.
Responses are in the spoiler buttons.
Well first off, I appreciate you at least explaining how you feel rather just than throwing out rude, jerky remarks. I've never singled you out and been rude to you (besides saying "What the heck, Motoki hates me."). I do have the tendency to debate, but not because I think only my opinion is right, and not because I enjoy arguing.
The problem is that when you sit down and read a post that is (by nature) explaining one's point of view, it's very easy to interpret it in different ways. Not due to the content, but due to the attitude, tone of voice, etc. Obviously you can't always tell how words on a screen "are said", and that's where the problem lies. Sometimes it’s easy to assume that someone (me) is trying to be argumentative, know-it-all, etc, while sometimes people (like Asheskitty) read the posts and understood where they were coming from.
You did see my posts as argumentative, and along those lines, you always do. I'm not going to get into an argument (lol) about this, because either way, I suppose it doesn’t really matter, but clearly you don't like me. Part of the reason I’ve been a bit rude with you, is because instead of coming at that dislike for me in a civil, mature way (which you have to an extent now), you've just been a jerk to me the only times you’ve said something to or about me. While I know I debate now and then, I never intentionally am rude to anyone.
There are times you have thought I was being rude though, like for example when I posted about Ticket to Ride. I said something along the lines of "It looks pretty lame". Yes, that does sound blunt and rude towards a game that people like, and you made sure to chime in that "Idiotekque has no manners", but you didn't pay attention to the rest of that comment that I made. I said it looked pretty lame at first glance, and asked what the hubbub was about it. Why? Because I knew absolutely zero about the game besides hearing a LOT of people praising it. Then I went to look at pictures, and saw pictures of train conductors and whatnot. The pictures did not tell me much about the game, and they didn't make it look fun (a lot of really great games don’t LOOK fun from pictures). Another problem is that you probably had me on ignore, so you didn't hear the rest of what I said, which was basically "It looked pretty lame at first glance judging from the pictures, so that must really say something for the gameplay". I ended the discussion saying that I would definitely pick it up at 75% off.
I also got a PM later that day from someone apologizing for how Motoki and some others can be “elitist assholes” about certain things. I wouldn’t go that far, but it shows that branding something on someone isn’t always exactly fair. It wasn’t fair of that person to call you that, just like it isn’t fair for you to brand certain things on me.
Coming from instances like that, you have your perception of me painted and set in stone, even if you claim to continue to “give me chances”. Basically, no matter what I say, it really seems like you're going to take it negatively and argumentatively, even if it's not.
The problem with the word "argument" is that it's subjective. I enjoy a healthy debate. Why? Not because I think only my way is right, but because I like hearing different sides and perspectives of the subject. When I said that it was good to "look at things from two sides", I wasn't telling everyone that they should do that, I was more trying to explain that I do that, and that's why now and again I may take the contrary stance on a matter. I'm in no way upset, angry, self-centered etc when I'm doing this, and a lot of time I actually would more easily sway towards the popular opinion (especially in this last case; that was an awful article). That said, I also tend to sympathize with someone who is getting bashed (like GamerX here), whether they deserve it or not, and I offered a different perspective that explained a likely issue he is having and how that issue created... a really crappy article.
In the end, you (and probably others) seem to see a continued discussion from two different sides of the spectrum as one person insisting that their way is right. Just because someone takes a stance on something contrary to the popular opinion doesn’t mean that he is being a difficult asshole in continuing that discussion, or that he believes he has the end all, know all view on the matter. Along those lines, it does seem like you just want me to shut up, because you (and others) don’t agree with me. That’s a little unfair. When people look at the posts in the right light, the result is pretty pleasant. I enjoyed the debate/discussion I had with Asheskitty, and he or she mentioned how it was interesting to hear about some of that behind the scenes article writing/SEO stuff, regardless if he or she agreed with the point I brought up. Hell, I didn’t end up agreeing with the point I brought up (explained more later in the post).
Admittedly, yes. You picked an isolated comment that could indeed be seen as rude. It was a little bit rude, yes. Do you know why I said this though?
You post on this topic a lot. You start the little trends (Coconut Queen, simulators, etc), you pulled together your own private group (which has gotten bigger since; hell, I’m in it), and if anyone could be considered the “celebrities” of the Steam Deal thread, it’s you, CheapLikeAFox, and BigSpoonyBard. Because of this, when you make a joke, or take a side on a subject, people DO tend not only to agree with you, but to flat out post “Oh yeah! I think so too!” Why? Simple, people like you, because it’s the internet and you post lots of funny stuff. And yes, you’re a smart guy and you make useful posts too.
However that comes with the entire “bandwagon” thing. I see it over, and over, and over again. It happens on ANY online forum with lots of members. Certain ones get more popular than others, and people follow their lead. I know you understand this; people do follow your lead (I think Sunasun has worshipped you and Coconut Queen since you started that trend). There’s nothing wrong with that, and I’m not saying there is, but it can get annoying sometimes, especially when someone else brings up valid points on a subject with an opinion contrary to yours. There’s nothing wrong with “swimming upstream”, so to speak, but it’s still a little funny how that all works.
That said, I wasn’t being sarcastic. I think the entire bandwagon thing is funny. There’s also really nothing wrong with it. It actually goes to show the companionship between the CAGs here. So yes, it IS nice to see everyone jumping on a bandwagon sometimes, lol. I understand why you saw the comment as rude and sarcastic, but that actually wasn’t the intention. I apologize (to everyone) if that’s how it came across.
As for being presumptuous, not so much. I don’t always mince words, and no, not everyone read that topic before forming an opinion. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I wasn’t even rebuking people for not doing so. I don’t always read articles in their entirety either. Even someone who was “arguing” with me admitted that they didn’t read the article though, so if it was a “presumptuous assumption”, it was a correct one.
I brought up search engine optimization because it was directly linked to what I was talking about. How so?
Site owner with not enough time on his hands
Losing revenue to Steam/pushing DRM free in a society where Steam is king
Struggling to keep up a site that probably isn’t doing very well
Needs more page hits (for both ad revenue and people who will actually like the site)
Pumps out shoddy articles now and then because of these reasons
Does this because SEO favors consistency (quality or not) over slow quality
I never ever brought up “search engines” just to “argue” or “be right”. I did so because… well, that’s what I was talking about in the first place. It was really just a commentary on how it’s pretty stupid how SEO works, and how GamerX is probably struggling. All I ever said was that the article PROBABLY (I can’t count how many times I’ve said probably) sucks because of reason 1, reason 2, etc. And although I did find it funny how a crappy article or two will make people never look or buy indie bundles connected to that site, I never called those people stupid, or insisted that they should rethink their stance. That’s a personal thing, and principle based in a way.
To reiterate, the above paragraph is not me arguing with you. I’m explaining why SEO was brought up, and how I did not bring it up as an argument. That’s all.
I’m not totally sure how to respond to this, but I mean… really? Pretty much everyone on occasion jumps on the internet to do things quickly. For example, maybe I want to research something (that’s not particularly important) quickly. If I was serious about it, I’d probably look into encyclopedias, etc etc to find a lot of info about it. If I just wanna check it out quickly, I’ll probably hop on Wikipedia and spend a few minutes skimming the entry. It’s not really an assumption to guess that pretty much everyone here has jumped on Wikipedia (or Google, or whatever) really quick to find something out. But hey, I could very well be wrong.
But that’s not even a bad thing or a rude assumption, is it? The internet lets you do things quickly; i.e. “instant gratification”. The subject just came up because it’s unfortunate how SEO favors that “instant gratification” over actual quality. But you “assume” here that I’m saying that “everyone is a blind sheep who follows along” and I “know better”? That’s kind of a rude assumption of my character.
Like I said near the beginning of this post, it seems like you see anything that I say in a negative light. You immediately decide what my intentions are (negative and haughty), and after that, there’s really no turning back from that viewpoint. If you could read my posts from a neutral perspective, you could see that it was never my intention to “be right” or shove my opinion down peoples’ throats.
Do you see how often I’ve used the word “probably” in my entire discussion about GamerX’s theoretical woes and them being the cause of his crappy article? Do I KNOW that he’s dealing with those issues and that that’s why that crappy article came out? No, I don’t! That’s why I say “probably”, because I’m saying “Everyone’s hating on him, but it’s probably not as simple as that. He probably is dealing with these issues, and that’s why his work is suffering; it’s too bad.” It was an idea from a theoretical viewpoint from the get go, and I implied that a number of times.
For my posts to be conceived as completely peaceful and non-“I’m right! I’m right!”, perhaps I should write a disclaimer before every post saying:
“ In the following post I in no way believe my opinion to be the only true opinion. I do not think that my perspective on the matter is the only correct one, and it may be the incorrect one. I am only offering my own insight into the issue, which may be either noted or disregarded on an individual basis.”
That would be silly though. The problem is that when something sounds the least bit blunt and opinionated on my part, you immediately are irritated by it and you think I’m trying to be right, when I’m really not. Obviously I understood that that’s how you felt, so I went and added that I wasn’t trying to be right, that it was just an idea, etc etc. Yet still you feel it necessary to drag me under the bus, and criticize me for not saying that immediately from the start. Is that really fair?
This is an internet forum. They are FULL of blunt opinions that show no concern or care for what other people think. Still I try to explain myself to ease any “hurt feelings” or such, and still that is not enough for you. It kind of appears that the only way to appease you on my part would be to simply to never post any view I have on anything. Of course you just put me on ignore (which I don’t mind one way or the other), but then on that chance occasion that someone quotes me and replies to me, you find the need to be insult me. You’ve done this on a number of occasions when I said nothing rude, and you know that.
The only reason I mentioned that the person who replied to me might not have read my post was because he said that it looked like I was “advocating” sloppy, quick articles. I wasn’t, and before he posted that, I clearly stated that I didn’t like how SEO favored those quick, weak articles in favor of slow, quality ones. If he had read my posts closely, he would have seen that.
There’s nothing wrong with skimming posts; I do it too sometimes. It was just a simple misunderstanding; I was saying “Oh, you probably didn’t notice that I said this before in a previous post”, etc. I wasn’t being rude to him, and I never just said “Read my posts, you’re wrong.” I put that “Maybe you didn’t read my post, I’m not sure” at the beginning of my reply to him, and then reiterated what I said or implied before.
And I wasn’t going to talk about your little post to me a few pages back, but since you brought it up, what the hell, right? Your post was nothing more than a rude, mocking, childish insult. You could have civilly and respectfully stated your distaste for something I said, but instead you just made fun of me. That was hurtful, and people chiming in and laughing at it was hurtful too. What does it matter though, right? It’s just my feelings; nothing important.
Yes and no. A lot of people made comments along the lines of “I’m never going to that site again” or “That company isn’t getting any of my money”. Those are sweeping generalizations that since one article was shoddy, the entire site, company, etc, is crap and deserves no respect. That’s a personal decision, and no matter what anyone decides to think, there’s nothing wrong with that. I just decided to link another article of GamerX’s to show that he isn’t as crappy as a writer as everyone thought (even I assumed he was until I read it).
On further inspection, the site is generally crap though.
And that’s fine; fair enough. It’s hard because you can’t hear HOW I say things. Some things like sarcasm can be pulled from sentences where there was no sarcasm intended, and sometimes a sarcastic or joking sentence can be taken as a serious one. In the end though, you see my posts in a certain way, and I don’t think there’s any changing that. That’s totally fine, and that’s why you can ignore my posts. Just please don’t feel that it is your “God given duty” to say something snarky or rude when someone happens to quote one of my posts, as you’ve done a number of times in the past. That’s mean.
If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all. (I have to tell myself that too.)
I get what you’re saying, and it’s not really condescending, no. I understand that, and for the most part you’re right. The only misconception here is that when I (continue to) make comments towards a subject. I say something, someone says something back, I reply, etc. I enjoy the discussion; I’m not trying to get in the last word edgewise or prove that I’m right or that my view is better. I’ll try to explain that, because that’s clearly problem.
I pretty much read every page of this thread (quite the mental workout, sometimes), so I enjoy seeing people start a discussion on something, take different sides on the matter, and let the words fly. Not to say I like to see people argue; that’s the thing. I enjoy it when RollingSkull comes in, bashes a game (with explained reasoning), and someone else who disagrees comes along and replies. The last conversation between RollingSkull and Hal (I think it was Hal; the guy with the monkey in a suit avatar) was great, because I got to see two people who are fans of the Serious Sam games explain why think certain games in the series are good or bad. It was a REALLY useful debate to read through, because I’ve never played any of the games. I came to the conclusion that if Serious Sam TSE went on sale for a little cheaper, I would probably grab it.
So sometimes, a topic comes up that I feel I have something to say about. This honestly doesn’t always happen, because… well, I’m only 21 and half the time I DON’T know much about the subject. There have been loads of discussions about things like Onlive and the layoffs, president firing people, selling the company, asking them to come back, etc. Did I post an opinion on that? No, because I didn’t know enough about the subject to add anything useful to the discussion. Believe it or not, I don’t know everything, and I don’t think I do.
But like I said, something there are topics that I feel I have something useful to add to. For example, during the Steam sale everybody was talking about Fallout 3 and New Vegas because they were on sale. I was late to the discussion (because that thread moved… really fast), but I kept up on it and ran into a couple posts about the games. One was simply a troll saying “f3 is the worst game to come out in a decade”, one was something along the lines of “New Vegas is way better than F3”, and the rest of the posts were people asking for help on deciding which to buy, if they should buy any, etc.
I have played the Fallout series for years, and it’s one of my favorites, so I felt I had something to add to the conversation. I talked about how Fallout 3 and New Vegas are very similar, and how I personally wouldn’t consider one better than the other, but I brought out the changes and fixes that New Vegas brought (ADS, a better crafting system, etc), and how a lot of people consider Fallout 3 to still be the better game due to storyline, a bigger map, better wastelandy feel, etc. Just like now, I didn’t think that I was right or wrong, and I didn’t imply so either. New Vegas probably is the better game because of the fixes it brought, but that’s just opinion I guess.
With this last topic about GATT and that article, I decided to chime in because I happened to have a little experience behind the scenes in the subject matter. I’ve worked for a company owner with no time on his hands who needed blog posts for traffic (his SEO guy was breathing down his neck). The result was that he was forced to write some articles himself, and they weren’t badly written, but they were very short. That’s why I thought it was worth mentioning that GamerX was probably going through the same thing. I had a little insight into the matter, so I brought it up. When people came back saying “No, that’s crap, he should still post quality stuff” my response was basically “Yes, I agree with you; he should; but sadly, SEO doesn’t agree with us.” It’s hard to say I was forcing my thoughts down peoples’ throats when I agreed with the popular opinion in the first place, and continually stated that.
So I had something to say about that subject, because I had a little experience on the subject. That honestly doesn’t happen a whole lot; I’m young, and my “areas of expertise” include video games, writing (technical and fiction), and graphic arts (to a limited degree). I don’t have a wealth of knowledge and experience, because yes, I’m only 21. That said, I’m not trying to be high and mighty when I say that I can honestly say I don’t know it all.
For example, I looked at GATT a bit more and found that there are actually a number of article writers other than GamerX, and that they post A LOT. In a way, I completely retract any idea that GamerX has an excuse for copying and pasting a Skype conversation to make up the bulk of an article. He has more than enough articles being posted to the site on a daily basis that he doesn’t need to rush an article like that. Further than that, I found an article (written by another writer on the site) about “Onami” releasing Castlevania LoS 2. That’s really sad; a typo that bad in the TITLE of an article, and on the front page? I can safely say I will not be going to that site for reviews or gaming news (even though I would probably still grab one of their bundles if it was cheap enough and I liked the games in it).
From the get go, I wasn’t trying to say I was right. I didn’t even have a solid opinion on the matter, I just was talking along the lines of bringing up another side of the coin that may or may not be the case. People like Asheskitty read my posts and understood that (even though you might say that I “argued” with him), and the people I was “arguing” with, I didn’t really feel like we were arguing at all. Mostly because I agreed with what they were saying, I was just talking about how SEO can be pretty ridiculous.
In case it’s not clear to you, nothing I’ve said in this post is me “arguing” with you. I am not right or wrong here; I’m only explaining myself to you in a level, detailed fashion, because this is the most mature comment you’ve ever offered to me, and because you’re saying some things about me as a person. Obviously you see my posts as “wanting to argue or be right”, and now I understand that. So here I am explaining that that is not my intention, and that you are reading my posts the wrong way. I’m sure it’s best for both of us if you simply don’t read my posts (i.e. Ignore) so that won’t continue to be an issue, but regardless, since you took the time to maturely explain yourself, I felt you deserved an explanation from me (not an argument, because there’s nothing here to be “wrong” about; you’re not “wrong”). I don’t know if you’ll see this or not, but oh well.
It’s funny how you see my posts though, and think that I view myself and my opinion so highly. Have you read my name? Have you looked at my avatar? Not many people call themselves an “idiot”. The avatar is of two people pointing guns at each others heads. The next panel of that scene had them both bleeding, dead on the ground (not exactly SFW). Yes, the name references a Radiohead song, and I kind of think all humans are idiots in their own ways, but that idea doesn’t exclude me. I use it as my name because it applies to me (too well). Why?
I have made too many wrong turns in (my very short) life, and I continue to make them on a daily basis. I hate my face. I often try to fix something so fervently, that I make it worse than when I started. I hurt the people who mean the most to me without trying. I forget to clip my toenails for way too long. I’m a bleeding heart in all the wrong ways, and probably none of the right ones. I come across as an asshole sometimes, because I get tired of caring what people think. I cheated on my girlfriend once. I like to debate. I dropped my cousin’s slice of pizza on the ground once and didn’t tell him when I gave it back.
I could go on forever. I’m young. I’m human. I’m an idiot. If the name wasn’t a strong enough statement towards that fact, the avatar is supposed to reiterate it. I’m frequently wrong, and occasionally right. In fact I was just wrong about GamerX; he is indeed an idiot (too).
By all of this reasoning, you may agree that it would be better if I simply didn’t post. If I’m an idiot, who wants to hear me speak, right? Maybe a lot of people here would agree with that idea. Feel free to say so if you do; maybe a couple hundred signatures will convince me to stop posting. Still, I come to this site because I’m bored, and it’s fun to talk about games, find deals, and shoot the breeze now and then. Perhaps my skin is a bit thicker when it comes to online debates, because I used to frequent forums like GameFAQs and a community site for an old online game that was pretty much nothing BUT debates. I do forget that it’s easy for people to take written comments the wrong way on forums, so comments that I quickly punch out and post are sometimes blunt, and construed as “rude”, “condescending”, etc. I clearly have to watch for that more closely.
That said, I do try to post useful things too. I manage the GOG Deals thread (although I’ve been slow on it lately), and when I do know something about a game, I try to offer good input on it (I have a fair number of reviews on Steam too). It’s a little upsetting when the “useful” posts fall by the wayside and the “bad” posts are the only ones that people pay attention to, but what can I do?
In any case, this post has gone on for way, way, way too long. If anyone actually read it, that’s cool. If not? How could I ask you too, it’s 9 pages long or something. I didn’t write this in the hopes that you (Motoki) would decide to apologize and like me. Quite frankly, I don’t really care. It would be nice to bury the hatchet, because besides the annoyance received from your occasional insults to me, I really don’t have anything against you. That, and it’s the internet. I find it silly to get mad/offended/annoyed by people on a public forum talking about video games, but that’s just me.
And if all of that wasn’t enough to explain things:
Mea culpa .