16 year old sees woman naked, mother arrested by Morality Police

That is an indictment for child endangerment.

100% legal, no "morality" is being imposed there. If he needed to see a nude woman she should have given him porn.
 
This Mom should be the poster child for bad judgment. It's not bad enough that she hires the stripper for her underage son's party, but she gets busted when she tries to get film developed of the party.

I think the moral here is clear - Get a digital camera. :)
 
She took pictures of her son with strippers?

What a perverted bitch, obviously she was trying to work out some sick and twisted sexual fantasy, and it is a good thing (for the sons sake) that she got turned in by the photo developer.
 
Huh... I don't see what the big deal is with the exception of involving other peoples children... Its their home and their family... Honestly though, I'd seen a lot of girls naked (first hand) when I was 16. I know people that were having sex at 12 for fucks sake!

Seeing boobies shake under parental supervision is hardly a criminal act.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Huh... I don't see what the big deal is with the exception of involving other peoples children... Its their home and their family... Honestly though, I'd seen a lot of girls naked (first hand) when I was 16. I know people that were having sex at 12 for fucks sake!

Seeing boobies shake under parental supervision is hardly a criminal act.[/QUOTE]

I saw it on the news this morning, the parents had consent from all the other parents.

It was funny - Dianne Sawyer was trying to publicly shame the mother, and the mother seemed perfectly calm with her decision.

Besides, show me a 16 year-old boy who hasn't used the internet to search for naked ladies. I think the real issue is that the mother removed the shame that the 16 year-old should have felt for his desire to see a naked woman. Luckily society and that nosy Walgreens lady are here to step in and cast the Scarlet S on this mother and her offspring.
 
[quote name='camoor']Last time I looked, being white trash wasn't cause for imprisonment.[/QUOTE]

Lord knows it should be though.
 
[quote name='camoor']I saw it on the news this morning, the parents had consent from all the other parents.

It was funny - Dianne Sawyer was trying to publicly shame the mother, and the mother seemed perfectly calm with her decision.

Besides, show me a 16 year-old boy who hasn't used the internet to search for naked ladies. I think the real issue is that the mother removed the shame that the 16 year-old should have felt for his desire to see a naked woman. Luckily society and that nosy Walgreens lady are here to step in and cast the Scarlet S on this mother and her offspring.[/QUOTE]

Parental consent!? Then what the flying fucking hell is the issue!?!?!?!

How can there be a problem if everyone was ok with it? I could see if the other parents pressed charges... but ... jesus fucking christ what a bunch of sorry assed, pussy whipped, 'I hope my breathing doesn't offend you', whiney bitches this country has become. God forbid a teenager see breasts with his parents after hes probably already sexually active. If people would stop wasting time on all this rediculous bull shit that doesn't concern them, the world would be a lot better fucking place. This thing is going to go to court and they're going to fight it and some asshole politician is going to see this as a sign of the moral decay of a once strong christian nation and hes gunna rant and rave and bitch about breasts and then pass some stupid ass law that makes women remove their breasts, or atleast obtain 2 forms of picture ID and fill out the proper forms in triplicate after being married for three years before they can be naked infront of anyone.... And then he goes to visit his tranvestite underage asian prostitute before going home to a good christian home....

fuck!
 
[quote name='Kayden']Parental consent!? Then what the flying fucking hell is the issue!?!?!?!

How can there be a problem if everyone was ok with it? I could see if the other parents pressed charges... but ... jesus fucking christ what a bunch of sorry assed, pussy whipped, 'I hope my breathing doesn't offend you', whiney bitches this country has become. God forbid a teenager see breasts with his parents after hes probably already sexually active. If people would stop wasting time on all this rediculous bull shit that doesn't concern them, the world would be a lot better fucking place. This thing is going to go to court and they're going to fight it and some asshole politician is going to see this as a sign of the moral decay of a once strong christian nation and hes gunna rant and rave and bitch about breasts and then pass some stupid ass law that makes women remove their breasts, or atleast obtain 2 forms of picture ID and fill out the proper forms in triplicate after being married for three years before they can be naked infront of anyone.... And then he goes to visit his tranvestite underage asian prostitute before going home to a good christian home....

fuck![/QUOTE]

Mutual consent means nothing. Zip. Zilch. You have 13 year old girls consenting to have sex with 25 year old guys every day of the week.

The problem could go down as being "child abuse", since the children are minors. And yes, having your mom get you a stripper is some pretty have mental abuse.

Not even that specific incident, but imagine being raised by a woman who thinks that's OK. Judge a person by their actions, and judging from this one, I would say that these people have had some trauma in their past.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Mutual consent means nothing. Zip. Zilch. You have 13 year old girls consenting to have sex with 25 year old guys every day of the week.

The problem could go down as being "child abuse", since the children are minors. And yes, having your mom get you a stripper is some pretty have mental abuse.

Not even that specific incident, but imagine being raised by a woman who thinks that's OK. Judge a person by their actions, and judging from this one, I would say that these people have had some trauma in their past.[/QUOTE]

That is something my mom would have been totally cool with when I was that age.

It wasn't because she was fucked up in the head. It was because she respected me as an adult capable of thinking my own thoughts and she knew that boobies were the last thing I really needed 'protection' from.
 
[quote name='Kayden']That is something my mom would have been totally cool with when I was that age.

It wasn't because she was fucked up in the head. It was because she respected me as an adult capable of thinking my own thoughts and she knew that boobies were the last thing I really needed 'protection' from.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and you're a shining example of a well-raised, healthy human being. :roll:

If your mom thought you were adult enough to drive a car when you were 12, would that make it OK or legal? NO! You're a minor until you're 18, and if your parents do anything irresponsible they're liable. Seems pretty black and white to me.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Yeah, and you're a shining example of a well-raised, healthy human being. :roll:

If your mom thought you were adult enough to drive a car when you were 12, would that make it OK or legal? NO! You're a minor until you're 18, and if your parents do anything irresponsible they're liable. Seems pretty black and white to me.[/QUOTE]

Anyone that cant see shades of grey isnt worth talking to.
 
[quote name='camoor']

Little 16 year old Johnny shouldn't know what a woman without clothes looks like[/QUOTE]

The 10 kids didn't just see a naked woman, they saw a woman strip naked and dance provocatively for an extended period of time (during which some of the kids probably exposed themselves, and possibly beat off).
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The 10 kids didn't just see a naked woman, they saw a woman strip naked and dance provocatively for an extended period of time (during which some of the kids probably exposed themselves, and possibly beat off).[/QUOTE]

Exposing yourself and beating off when you see a stripper might be something you do but not everyone does that. I've seen a fair amount of strippers but I have the decency to wait and go home to either a) jack that sucker silly, b) call up one of my female friends for a booty call, or c) a nice cold shower. I possess enough self control to have some sense of restraint. Yeah, these are 16 yr olds but it's stereotypical to think that they don't possess a miniscule of self control.

Anyway, the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime in this case as the mom (if I've read the posts correctly) got parental consent from all the parents of the kids in attendance. To shame the woman for something which she feels is not a big deal smacks of puritanicalism. Welcome to Americana Puritanica - land of the free (so long as you as you're a Christian conservative) and home of the brave (so long as you don't speak your mind about things that would cause an uproar in this Bush regime over something as trivial as a boob).
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The 10 kids didn't just see a naked woman, they saw a woman strip naked and dance provocatively for an extended period of time (during which some of the kids probably exposed themselves, and possibly beat off).[/QUOTE]

I know thats the first thing I do when I see an attractive woman. :roll:
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']That is the difference between an adolescent going through puberty and an adult.[/QUOTE]

Yea... the first time I got an erection my natural reaction was to whip it out and flog it in the middle of class...

Do you even think before you post anymore?
 
I thought this was going to be about some 16 year old who goes over a friends and by accident sees the mother naked.

This mother is a fuck up, a dumbass and should be in jail. Where is the cut off? If he was 18 then fine. It's just like if she bought him beer for his 18th birthday and goes drunk driving and killed someone, it would be her fault.

The women is a dumbass andanyone who stands up for the women is one also.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Yea... the first time I got an erection my natural reaction was to whip it out and flog it in the middle of class...

Do you even think before you post anymore?[/QUOTE]

If you didn't take pictures then you are fine. :p


The better question is has he ever thought before posting?
 
[quote name='David85']I thought this was going to be about some 16 year old who goes over a friends and by accident sees the mother naked.

This mother is a fuck up, a dumbass and should be in jail. Where is the cut off? If he was 18 then fine. It's just like if she bought him beer for his 18th birthday and goes drunk driving and killed someone, it would be her fault.

The women is a dumbass andanyone who stands up for the women is one also.[/QUOTE]

How do you equate intoxicated underaged vehicular homicide to getting a stripper? Did the teen somehow lose control of the stripper, violently careening off the couch mowing down several innocent bystanders? :roll:

Why is she stupid for getting her son a stripper? I agree shes a bit fucked in the head takin the pictures to a public developer... but as far as the stripper she also had the consent of 10 other teen's parents.
 
[quote name='Kayden']How do you equate intoxicated underaged vehicular homicide to getting a stripper? Did the teen somehow lose control of the stripper, violently careening off the couch mowing down several innocent bystanders? :roll:
.[/QUOTE]

If he had, this would've been a far more interesting story! :D
 
[quote name='David85']I thought this was going to be about some 16 year old who goes over a friends and by accident sees the mother naked.

This mother is a fuck up, a dumbass and should be in jail. Where is the cut off? If he was 18 then fine. It's just like if she bought him beer for his 18th birthday and goes drunk driving and killed someone, it would be her fault.

The women is a dumbass andanyone who stands up for the women is one also.[/QUOTE]

No what's dumb is how puritanical america is about nudity. It still surprises me that in this day and age that america has not progressed beyond outdated ideologies instead of thinking for themselves. Can someone explain to me without getting overtly moralistic what is the logical argument against nudity? Maybe it should be made a federal law that any woman giving birth to a nude baby be put on death row because c'mon, she saw her baby naked and her baby saw what her vagina looks like so she is contributing to the delinquency to a minor. Her baby should be ashamed at seeing its mother that way! Scientists will figure out a way to create a gene that will only allow children who are fully clothed to be born. Hell, parents shouldn't be able to see their babies naked when they must change their diapers, give them showers, or potty-training them. They should do all that fully clothed. Even people who want to have sex should be ashamed at seeing each other naked. People should only have sex with clothes on. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
 
[quote name='jaykrue'] People should only have sex with clothes on. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:[/QUOTE]

Its not a thing I do a lot, but it is possible. :lol:
 
[quote name='jaykrue']No what's dumb is how puritanical america is about nudity. It still surprises me that in this day and age that america has not progressed beyond outdated ideologies instead of thinking for themselves. Can someone explain to me without getting overtly moralistic what is the logical argument against nudity? Maybe it should be made a federal law that any woman giving birth to a nude baby be put on death row because c'mon, she saw her baby naked and her baby saw what her vagina looks like so she is contributing to the delinquency to a minor. Her baby should be ashamed at seeing its mother that way! Scientists will figure out a way to create a gene that will only allow children who are fully clothed to be born. Hell, parents shouldn't be able to see their babies naked when they must change their diapers, give them showers, or potty-training them. They should do all that fully clothed. Even people who want to have sex should be ashamed at seeing each other naked. People should only have sex with clothes on. :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:[/QUOTE]

this was a joke, right?

I suppose everyone would have no qualms with the mother buying all the kids a bottle of 151 and letting them get piss drunk, as well, right?
 
[quote name='Rich']this was a joke, right?

I suppose everyone would have no qualms with the mother buying all the kids a bottle of 151 and letting them get piss drunk, as well, right?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, god forbid we enter the moral decay that is called "everywhere but the USA and parts of the middle east". No drinking till 21 is insane.
 
[quote name='David85']I thought this was going to be about some 16 year old who goes over a friends and by accident sees the mother naked.

This mother is a fuck up, a dumbass and should be in jail. Where is the cut off? If he was 18 then fine. It's just like if she bought him beer for his 18th birthday and goes drunk driving and killed someone, it would be her fault.

The women is a dumbass andanyone who stands up for the women is one also.[/QUOTE]

It's pretty hilarious that a gay man is lecturing others on the value of puritanical moral virtues.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The 10 kids didn't just see a naked woman, they saw a woman strip naked and dance provocatively for an extended period of time (during which some of the kids probably exposed themselves, and possibly beat off).[/QUOTE]

Another one of quackzilla's sexual fantasies that I never needed to know.
 
[quote name='Rich']this was a joke, right?

I suppose everyone would have no qualms with the mother buying all the kids a bottle of 151 and letting them get piss drunk, as well, right?[/QUOTE]

All of you take everything to such extremes that you aren't even capable of intelligent discusion anymore.

You take one comment made by someone, misconstrue it farther than I thought humanly possible and then persecute the poster personally because his ideas were different.

All this method of discussion does is breed contempt. Any subject involving alonzo, CTL, Quack, Rich and/or PAD is going to digress into the same worn out sespool of shitty arguments, baseless name calling and political pigeon-holing.

Why don't you all just either give it a rest and shut up or exercise some tollerance. This medium is for sharing ideas and vantage points, not for telling people they're hippy liberals or cat killing democrats.

It sad because you all want to push the idea you're such refined, educated adults, but you can't even put forth the slightest bit of maturity and have a simple talk without resorting to getting personal and calling names.
 
[quote name='Kayden']All of you take everything to such extremes that you aren't even capable of intelligent discusion anymore.

You take one comment made by someone, misconstrue it farther than I thought humanly possible and then persecute the poster personally because his ideas were different.

All this method of discussion does is breed contempt. Any subject involving alonzo, CTL, Quack, Rich and/or PAD is going to digress into the same worn out sespool of shitty arguments, baseless name calling and political pigeon-holing.

Why don't you all just either give it a rest and shut up or exercise some tollerance. This medium is for sharing ideas and vantage points, not for telling people they're hippy liberals or cat killing democrats.

It sad because you all want to push the idea you're such refined, educated adults, but you can't even put forth the slightest bit of maturity and have a simple talk without resorting to getting personal and calling names.[/QUOTE]

You're a poopy head. ):

My two cents: I agree that a strip club for a group 16 year olds is a little odd, and that these boys are 16, and while I assume that they're mature enough to handle it, I don't think that they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want "at their discretion". Hell, if they want titty, they can go on the intarnet and use my porn equation and wank until their heart's content.
 
[quote name='Kayden']All of you take everything to such extremes that you aren't even capable of intelligent discusion anymore.

You take one comment made by someone, misconstrue it farther than I thought humanly possible and then persecute the poster personally because his ideas were different.

All this method of discussion does is breed contempt. Any subject involving alonzo, CTL, Quack, Rich and/or PAD is going to digress into the same worn out sespool of shitty arguments, baseless name calling and political pigeon-holing.

Why don't you all just either give it a rest and shut up or exercise some tollerance. This medium is for sharing ideas and vantage points, not for telling people they're hippy liberals or cat killing democrats.

It sad because you all want to push the idea you're such refined, educated adults, but you can't even put forth the slightest bit of maturity and have a simple talk without resorting to getting personal and calling names.[/QUOTE]

Well said. As to Rich, the joke is that america used to actually be a fun place to live. More and more, I feel as if this once great country has become the dystopian future where thought is regulated and ideas are outlawed. My post was a sarcastic criticism on the puritannical nature of the current regime. Dubya, to me, is the most repressive government regime I've ever had to live through. I haven't felt this despondent on the future of america even under Bush Sr.'s presidency. Granted, it can't compare to an actual oppressive regime like Nazis Germany or Cuba but I feel it's slowly headed in that direction. And that's the thing about America - I LIKE the fact that I can take advantage of the freedom I have but it seems like more and more citizens' rights are being taken away for a few individuals' mistakes.

Because of a few individuals such as child molestors, rapists, murderers, etc. , everyone else must be held back. I still think most of america's citizens are decent people. It's when the government demonizes these individuals as if they're representative of every person their stereotype falls under that I feel like I live in an oppressive state.

There've been comments that this woman is ignorant white trash. I think she's more informed and liberated about her sexuality than the ppl who are criticizing her. My whole point with my previous post was that criticizing her for buying a stripper seemed a bit harsh and did not fit the crime. Using an alcohol analogy is flawed logic since alcohol can actually impair judgment. There's chemicals in the brain that are being altered that can drastically affect judgment thanks to drinking liquor. Showing a stripper doesn't cause an altered mental state (and getting horny doesn't count since you can still have control).
 
[quote name='jaykrue']There've been comments that this woman is ignorant white trash. I think she's more informed and liberated about her sexuality than the ppl who are criticizing her. [/QUOTE]

I made the comment that she was white trash, but I saw her on TV. The woman wasn't Hilton's mother (not that Paris is a role model either)

I just find it funny that Paris is a celeb while everyone agrees that this mother should be drawn and quartered. And they say classism is dead in America...
 
[quote name='camoor']I made the comment that she was white trash, but I saw her on TV. The woman wasn't Hilton's mother (not that Paris is a role model either)

I just find it funny that Paris is a celeb while everyone agrees that this mother should be drawn and quartered. And they say classism is dead in America...[/QUOTE]

Well, money is the grease the keeps the engine of corruption and decadence going.
 
[quote name='Kayden']All of you take everything to such extremes that you aren't even capable of intelligent discusion anymore.

You take one comment made by someone, misconstrue it farther than I thought humanly possible and then persecute the poster personally because his ideas were different.

All this method of discussion does is breed contempt. Any subject involving alonzo, CTL, Quack, Rich and/or PAD is going to digress into the same worn out sespool of shitty arguments, baseless name calling and political pigeon-holing.

Why don't you all just either give it a rest and shut up or exercise some tollerance. This medium is for sharing ideas and vantage points, not for telling people they're hippy liberals or cat killing democrats.

It sad because you all want to push the idea you're such refined, educated adults, but you can't even put forth the slightest bit of maturity and have a simple talk without resorting to getting personal and calling names.[/QUOTE]

Yes, following the law is the definition of intollerance!

Kill me and take me to hell now, oh lord Satan!
 
[quote name='jaykrue']There've been comments that this woman is ignorant white trash. I think she's more informed and liberated about her sexuality than the ppl who are criticizing her. My whole point with my previous post was that criticizing her for buying a stripper seemed a bit harsh and did not fit the crime. Using an alcohol analogy is flawed logic since alcohol can actually impair judgment. There's chemicals in the brain that are being altered that can drastically affect judgment thanks to drinking liquor. Showing a stripper doesn't cause an altered mental state (and getting horny doesn't count since you can still have control).[/QUOTE]

There's no such thing as being "sexually liberated", that's just a bullshit term that people use to make their flaws look better. Would you consider a married couple who swings "sexually liberated"? What if they have kids? Oh, they must just be examples of more-evolved human beings!

No. No, no, and...no. Sexual actions like this suggest 2 things (could be both, since they often go hand in hand). Either the mother is an addict (alcohol or otherwise), or she has a history of sexual/physical abuse.

Buying a stripper for your underage son should not be considdered healthy, progressive, or normal. Call it what it is: destructive. As a parent, you're supposed to be looking out for the wellbeing of your children, and making sure they get all necessary care, attention, and discipline that they need in order to develop. Getting a stripper for their birthday party does none of those.

As was said before, white (almost translucent) trash. Somebody start playing the banjo.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']
Using an alcohol analogy is flawed logic since alcohol can actually impair judgment. There's chemicals in the brain that are being altered that can drastically affect judgment thanks to drinking liquor. Showing a stripper doesn't cause an altered mental state (and getting horny doesn't count since you can still have control).[/QUOTE]

UPenn differs.

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Powerful Effects of Pornography[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] As mentioned earlier, experimentalists and feminists took strong objection to the Johnson and Williams Commissions findings of limited pornography effects. As such, they set out to prove that powerful causal and ideological effects did exist, and that such results should not be ignored. This section will outline research in the following claimed powerful effects of pornography: (1. sexual arousal, (2. aggression, (3. desensitization, (4. attitudes towards women, (5. decline in family values, (6. causal model of rape, (7. feminist ideological effects, and (8. catharsis.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Sexual Arousal[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] A simple, yet consistently found powerful effect of both visual and literary pornography is its ability to sexually arouse males and females. This effect has been shown both mentally and physically.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Early research into arousal was conducted by Kinsey (1948) who found that males and females reported sexual arousal from material portraying nudity or sexual acts. Levitt (1969) attempted to take Kinsey's findings one step further by creating a scale of sexual arousal for men and women.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] This self report data has been backed up by physiological research which shows that penile tumescence measures, urinary acid phosphate, vaginal vasocongestion, blood pressure, and genital temperature are all related to pornography exposure (Zuckerman, 1971; Kelley and Byrne, 1983).[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Further studies have shown that arousal is caused by a combination of cognitive and imaginative processing (Geer and Fuhr, 1976; Przbyla and Byrne, 1984), and that arousal can result from self-generated erotic and non-erotic fantasies (Henson and Rubin, 1971).[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Aggression[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Related to the idea of arousal is the idea that exposure to pornography leads men to greater levels of aggression towards women. Bandura (1973) hypothesized that emotional arousal would intensify aggressive behavior. A number of experimental studies have tested this hypothesis.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Malamuth (1978) conducted a study using three male experimental conditions. One group would read aggressive pornography (depicting a rape), one nonaggressive pornography (loving interaction between a man and woman), and the third neutral stimuli (National Geographic articles). After exposure, all subjects were insulted by a female and were then put in a situation where they could aggress against this woman via the ostensible delivery of electric shocks. Half of the group was told it was permissible to be as aggressive as they wished (disinhibitory communication), while the other half were given a message to make them self conscious about aggression (inhibitory communication).[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] No results were found in the inhibitory group, but in the disinhibitory group the highest levels of aggression were recorded for those who had been exposed to the aggressive pornography.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Similar studies using the Buss paradigm (1961) where electrical shock against an experimental instigator is the operational definition of aggression, have been conducted by Donnerstein. For example Donnerstein and Berkowitz (1981) conducted an experiment placing males into one of four experimental film viewing conditions: aggressive pornography with positive outcome (depiction of a rape where the woman enjoyed the encounter), aggressive pornography with negative outcome (rape where the woman reacted negatively), nonagressive pornography (willing sexual intercourse), and a neutral stimuli. Before watching the film, participants were either angered or treated neutral by a female.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Results found that nonangered males who viewed the positive-aggressive film increased their aggression against the female. Among angered males, both the aggressive-positive and aggressive-negative films produced an increase in aggression towards the female instigator. From this, Donnerstein and Berkowitz conclude "that aggressive pornography can directly influence aggression against women (cited in Malamuth and Donnerstein, 1984)."[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Using a similar design, Donnerstein attempted to gauge the effect of aggressive pornography relative to non-pornographic aggressive material. Male subjects were first angered or treated neutral by a female accomplice, and were then assigned to watch one of three films; aggressive pornography (similar in content to those used in previous studies), aggressive non-pornography (woman is tied up but no nudity or sex), and finally a consensual sex film.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Results found that the combination of angered subject and aggressive pornography produced the highest aggression levels. Significantly, the study also found that the aggressive non pornographic film produced higher levels of aggression than did the purely sexual film. This leads Donnerstein to again conclude that violent pornography is related to aggression against women, but that this may be a factor of the violence in the film, not its sexual content: "Again we see that aggressive pornography is a strong contributor to violence against women. The main factors in this aggressive facilitation, however, seems to be the aggressive nature of the film (Malamuth and Donnerstein, 1984: pp. 74-77)."[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Desensitization[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Two studies conducted by Donnerstein and Linz have found that prolonged exposure to so called "slasher films" desensitizes viewers to violence against women. Such films are not necessarily pornographic (indeed many are R rated) and usually portray extreme violence juxtaposed with mildly sexual arousing scenes.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] In one study, Donnerstein and Linz (1985) showed 10 hours of R-rated slasher films, X-rated violent pornography, and X-rated nonviolent pornography to male subjects over the course of 5 days. The study found that the R-rated slasher films produced the greatest desensitization:[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [/size][/font]
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Initially, after the first day of viewing, the men rated themselves as significantly above the norm for depression, anxiety, and annoyance on a mood adjective checklist. After each subsequent day of viewing, these scores dropped until, on the fourth day of viewing, the males' levels of anxiety, depression, and annoyance were indistinguishable from baseline norms. (p. 34F).[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Subjects were also found to believe the films less debasing and degrading to women and more enjoyable.[/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] A similar study by Linz et al. (1988) exposed male groups to 8 hours of unedited feature length films. Groups saw slasher films, nonviolent comedies, sexually explicit nonviolent movies, or a no exposure control group. The study concluded that:[/size][/font]


[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Sexually violent slasher films that were originally anxiety provoking and depressing became less so with repeated exposure. Men exposed to the slasher films also reported seeing less violence with continued exposure, and films found to be degrading to women were judged to be less so after prolonged exposure. (Krafka et al., 1997: p. 154)[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]It is important to note that in these studies, desensitization effects were strongest among R-rated slasher films which while containing sexual scenes, were not pornographic.[/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Attitudes Towards Women[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Closely related to the desensitization studies, are experiments attempting to see if exposure to pornography leads to antisocial attitudes about women. These studies can be classified into two types, those looking at nonviolent pornography and those looking at violent pornography.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] In a widely cited experiment, Zillmann and Bryant (1982) explored "the consequences of continued exposure to pornography on beliefs about sexuality in general and on dispositions towards women (p. 13)." In this experiment, 80 male and 80 female participants were randomly selected into one of four conditions. In the massive exposure group, participants watched 36 erotic films (roughly 5 hours of film) over a six week period. In the intermediate exposure group, participants saw 18 erotic films and 18 non-erotic films. The no exposure group saw 36 non-erotic films, and finally there was a control. All pornographic films shown were deemed nonviolent. After exposure, participants were introduced to a rape case and asked to recommend a prison sentence for the offense. Participants were also asked to indicate their support for the female liberation movement on a 0 (no support) to 100 (maximum support) scale.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] The massive exposure group was found to have recommended significantly shorter prison terms for the rape case than all other groups. This was the case among both men and women. From this, Zillmann and Bryant conclude that "such exposure, it seems, made rape appear a trivial offense (p. 16)." The massive exposure group was also found to be significantly less supportive of the women's liberation movement.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] In the Donnerstein and Linz (1985) desensitization study mentioned earlier, participants attitudes towards rape were also measured. After exposure, participants saw a documentary reenactment of a real rape trial, and were then asked to asses the female victim. Participants who had seen the R-rated slasher films found the victim to be more responsible for being raped, more worthless, and her injury less severe. Results were largely the same for participants who had seem the X-rated violent films. However, unlike Zillmann and Bryant's finding, participants exposed to nonviolent pornography showed no effects.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Two other studies done by Malamuth and Check (1980 and 1985) explored the relationship between pornographic rape stories and attitudes about rape in general. In both studies, male participants were randomly assigned to listen to short stories about a victim aroused by being raped, a victim abhorred by the rape, and a mutually desired sex story. In the first study, results showed that those men exposed to the aroused rape story believed that the woman had experienced less trauma than those in the other conditions. In the second study, results found that men who heard the aroused rape story were significantly more likely to believe that women enjoy rape.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] These studies generally point to a link between violent pornographic material and antisocial views about women and rape (although it is unclear how much of this is due to violence alone). As we will discuss later, other than the Zillmann and Bryant study, little support is found for a similar link for nonviolent pornography.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Decline in Family Values[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Zillmann and Bryant (1989) conducted an experiment to test nonviolent pornography's effect on traditional values about marriage and family. They randomly assigned participants into porn viewing and control groups, and exposed them to this material during hourly sessions over a six week period. After one week, participants were asked to complete a family values survey. Results found that endorsement of marriage as an important institution fell from 60 percent in the control group to 39 percent in the treatment group. The treatment group also wanted fewer children.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] This and other similar studies have led Zillmann and Bryant to conclude that "those massively exposed to pornography will become distrusting of their partners in extended relationships . . . Another likely consequence is a growing dissatisfaction with sexual reality (cited in McNair, 1996: p. 77)." Similarly, Linz and Malamuth (1993) comment that exposure to pornography "fosters a lack of respect for social institutions such as the family and traditional sex roles for women (p. 17)."[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Causal Model of Rape[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Prominent feminist Diana Russell goes beyond the experimental evidence about pornography and aggression and attitudes towards women, and argues for a multivariate causal relationship between pornography and rape.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] She begins her model by citing research which seems to indicate that a substantial portion of men have a propensity towards rape. For example, Briere and Malamuth (1983) found that of 356 male respondents, 60 percent indicated that under the right conditions, there was some likelihood that they would rape or use force against a woman. Similarly, Goodchilds and Zellman (1984) found that 50 percent of high school males interviewed believed it acceptable "for a guy to hold down and force her to have sexual intercourse in instances such as when 'she gets him sexually excited' or 'she says she's going to have sex with him and then changes her mind."[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] From this premise, Russell argues that pornography predisposes some males to want to rape women by:[/size][/font]


[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]1. Pairing sexually arousing stimuli with rape.
2. Increasing males self-generated rape fantasies.
3. Sexualizing dominance and submission.
4. Creating an appetite for increasingly stronger material.[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]She also finds that pornography undermines males internal inhibitions to act out rape fantasies, and that it undermines potential victims ability to avoid or resist rape (Russell, 1993). Supporting these elements of her causal model she borrows heavily from the experimental research on aggression, desensitization, and attitudes towards women cited above. [/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Oddly enough, Russell concludes her causal model for pornography and rape by citing correlational evidence. For example, she points to a study done by Baron and Straus (1984) which found a significant correlation (+0.64) between state rape rates and the circulation rate of pornographic magazines in those states. The use of this evidence is rather queer, as any good statistician will note that correlation does not imply causation.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Ideological Effects[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Operating largely outside of experimental, survey, and correlational analyses, feminist scholars have developed an ideological view of pornography as more than a simple causal effect, but as a self sustaining reality. This view grows out of the traditional feminist critique of patriarchy, which finds that the oppression of women is an institutionalized and socially constructed tool which men use to maintain the status-quo. As Itzin (1992) summarizes:[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [/size][/font]
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]In Western societies, women are oppressed on the basis of race and class and sexuality and disability. Within this system of sexism, male power -- or male supremacy -- is institutionalized so that men as a group have access to economic, social, sexual and political power that women do not have.[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] From this perspective, it is but a short jump to find that pornography is a major tool used by the male hierarchy to keep women in their place. Thus, Dworkin (1988) finds that "Pornography is the material means of sexualizing inequality; and that is why pornography is a central practice in the subordination of women." In a similar fashion, Smith argues that pornography is just another aspect of a capitalist male hegemony: "Pornography solidifies white, male, heterosexual fantasies, and then commoditizes them (1988: p. 179)."[/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Key within these conceptualizations is the idea that pornography shows women to enjoy violence, subordination, and degradation, in other words the methods by which hierarchy punishes and maintains its power. Thus pornography teaches women that they are mere objects for male pleasure and domination. Therefore, women are socialized to this view, and pornography achieves its hegemonic ends. As Dworkin (1988) concludes: [/size][/font]


[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Pornography is the institution of male dominance that sexualizes hierarchy, objectification, submission, and violence. As such, pornography creates inequality, not as an artifact but as a system of social reality; it creates the necessity for the actual behaviors that constitute sex inequality.[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] This conclusion -- that pornography is more than a simple effect, but is rather a totalizing force of discrimination -- led Dworkin and MacKinnon to lobby the city of Minneapolis to pass an anti-pornography censorship bill. They essentially argued that pornography constituted a form of discrimination against women, not unlike Jim Crow laws used against blacks. As a result, women, as a group, should receive civil rights protections against pornography. As the Minneapolis Ordinance states (and also provides an excellent summation of the feminist ideological view of pornography):[/size][/font]
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Pornography is central in creating and maintaining the civil inequality of the sexes. Pornography is a systematic practice of exploitation and subordination based on sex which differentially harms women. The bigotry and contempt it promotes, with the acts of aggression it fosters, harm women's opportunities for equality of rights in employment, education, property rights, public accommodations and public services; create public harassment and private denigration; promote injury and degradation such as rape, battery and prostitution and inhibit just enforcement of laws against these acts; contribute significantly to restricting women from full exercise of citizenship and participation in public life, including in neighborhoods; damage relations between the sexes; and undermine women's equal exercise of rights to speech and action guaranteed to all citizens under the constitutions and laws of the United States and the State of Minnesota. (cited in Ferguson, 1995: p. 677)[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]The ordinance was passed by the city council in 1983 but was vetoed by the mayor. However, a revised version of the law was passed and signed into law by the city of Indianapolis in 1984. The following year, in the case of American Booksellers v. Hudnut (1986) the ordinance was struck down as and unconstitutionally vague restriction on protected speech.[/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Catharsis[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] At first, it may seem odd to place catharsis under the heading of "powerful effects." After all catharsis studies generally show that pornography prevents harmful effects like rape and other sex crimes. From this, one might argue that catharsis proves the "limited effects" of pornography. A better way to think of catharsis is as a powerful "limiting effect" against sexually deviant behavior. Therefore, it is properly referred to as a powerful effect.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] A number of cathartic effects have been found for pornography, but perhaps the most widely cited is the so called "Danish experience." In the 1960's Denmark experienced a "porno wave", but rather than censoring this content, in 1967 the government lifted all restriction on pornography (save a 16 year old age limit for purchasing porn). Yet rather than experiencing a wave of sex crimes as some had predicted, sex crimes actually declined. For example, Kutchinsky (1970; 1985; 1987; 1991) found that from 1965 to 1982 sex crimes against children declined from 30 per 100,000 in '65 to about 5 per 100,000 in '82. Similar evidence is found for rape rates. Kutchinsky concludes that this is likely the effect of pornography providing potential sex offenders an alternate means of sexual satisfaction, most likely through masturbation.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Another example of a nation with high amounts of pornography yet low sex crime rates is Japan. As Abramson and Hayashi (1984) have found, pornography in Japan is often featured in general interest newspapers and magazines, and can be seen on prime time television. Not only is porn widely available but much of its adult content depicts the bondage and rape of young women. "In fact, one of the best ways to ensure the success of a Japanese adult film is to include the bondage and rape of a young woman (Abramson and Hayashi, 1984: p. 178)." Despite this, Japan's rape rate is roughly 14 times lower than that of the U.S.'s (2.4 rapes per 100,000 in Japan compared to 34.5 in the U.S.). This discrepancy can not be explained by variance in laws, or Japanese women's reluctance to report rape. Instead, the [/size][/font]
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Japanese view the availability of such stimuli as a cathartic valve. It is presumed to provide vicarious satisfaction of a socially unacceptable behavior. In a culture that endorses strict codes of behavior and highly defined roles, the depiction of rape also provides a context in which Japanese men can vicariously abandon all of the explicit signposts of good behavior. (p. 182).[/size][/font]​
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Continuing with international evidence, Faust (1982) studied countries with the most and least equality achieved between men and women. She found that in nations like the U.S. and the Scandinavian countries which highly value women's equality, pornography was widely available. In contrast, in countries repressive towards women, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the former Soviet Union, little or no pornography was available.[/size][/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Another cathartic effect for pornography is found in data about child sex offenders and rapists. Child sex offenders have been shown to have had very little, if any exposure to pornography (Byrne and Kelley, 1984; Faust, 1982). Evidence has also shown that a majority of rapists come from sexually repressive family backgrounds (Goldstein and Kant, 1973; Byrne and Kelley, 1984).[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] In all of these cases, the cathartic effect of pornography is believed due to a substitution effect, by which potential sex offenders receive sexual gratification from pornographic content, rather than from criminal acts against individuals.[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]by Christopher D. Hunter
Ph.D. Candidate
Annenberg School for Communication
University of Pennsylvania
[email protected]
http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/chunter/[/size][/font]
 
ha, you guys are lame. BEing drunk and driving would maybe compare to watching strippers then fucking. But no fucking was involved. Matter fatc they just had a good ole time. Much like kids these days with beer. Alot of parents let there kids drink with there friends at home. Some throw parties but makes sure everyone stays the night.



I think its fine, i think its awesome. I think either there is alot of kids posting in this thread or a bunch of people who think nudity should be censored. I have charcoal drawings and many prints from a fellow artist wich feature woman naked. Does that mean everytime my little brother walks in my room i should get arrested. fuck that, grow up.
 
[quote name='Rich']UPenn differs.[/QUOTE]

I read the conclusion of the paper you posted part of. Here it is:

Conclusion

This paper has provided an overview of the limited effects - powerful effects debate about pornography. From this presentation, it should be clear that just like debates about television violence or the effect of the mass media in general, there are no clear answers. As such, it would seem that the best conclusion one can reach about the effect of pornography is that it "does not serve as a necessary and sufficient cause of audience effects, but rather functions among and through a nexus of mediating factors and influences (Klapper, 1960)." Thus bringing us full circle, back to the limited effects conclusion that sparked pornography research in the first place.

Taking one side of an argument and posting it as if it is the only 'evidence' is kinda weak.
 
[quote name='atreyue']I read the conclusion of the paper you posted part of. Here it is:



Taking one side of an argument and posting it as if it is the only 'evidence' is kinda weak.[/QUOTE]

And if the post wasn't to point out the experimental studies used within the essay, I'd agree.

Regardless, minors should not have access to porn. Not ART, doodle.


...Besides, she must've been fucking ugly if she has to work for 16 year olds.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']IMO strippers and videos of people fucking are not art.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to civilization, population: n-1

We're still waiting on doodle.
 
Maybe porn isn't art, but thats another discussion. but dancing isn't, come on people. Strippers preform an art, do you think anyone can do it. Not all girls can dance and have nice bodies to go along with the art form. I bieleve nudity itself is an art form, in turn which may be turned into a media such as drawings. Maybe you guys are the ones who were sheltered all your lifes and want to shelter others. But i think their parents can show them any kind of art form as long as its safe.

Conclusion:
dancing+nude= art
 
Just give me a sec, rich. By the way i just wanted to add, that i have friends whose girls friends go to strip joints and have more fun than the guy. It's a form of entertainment just like the way kids drink. I actually think its alot safer.
 
[quote name='doodle777_98']Maybe porn isn't art, but thats another discussion. but dancing isn't, come on people. Strippers preform an art, do you think anyone can do it. Not all girls can dance and have nice bodies to go along with the art form. I bieleve nudity itself is an art form, in turn which may be turned into a media such as drawings. Maybe you guys are the ones who were sheltered all your lifes and want to shelter others. But i think their parents can show them any kind of art form as long as its safe.

Conclusion:
dancing+nude= art[/QUOTE]

Not all guys can get it up under pressure, that doesn't make porn art.

Dancing to turn men on, especially 16 year olds, is not art.

And OMG those mcgriddles were disgusting.
 
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