2010-2011 NBA Season Thread

[dmaul1114]

Huh? I wasn't in that conversation and I've never rooted for Shawn Kemp.

 

[lordopus99]

[quote name='Soodmeg']
Also, Steve Nash and those guys will be forgotten (this isnt to say they are not amazing)...How about Malone? blah blah blah

oh shit...on the court moments," no mention anywhere. Chris Webber? blah blah blah. . Why isnt Reggie Miller mentioned blah blah blah....oh yea..no ring means no one cares. (Although he is an amazing commentator) The greatest big man of all time in Patrick Ewing barely gets mentioned blah blah blah.[/QUOTE]

Hey Joe Johnson...
Malone has a statue outside Jazz Arena and is in the HoF. Hard to be forgotten.
I guess you don't watch NBA on TNT. Webber and Miller are all over it. They talk about their past all the time. Didn't want to bring Chuck into this too?? Hard to be forgotten.
More about Webber. Did you not see the ESPN special on the Fab Five... You know this story about 5 guys up at Michigan that had one of the most famous blunders in sports ala the Webber "I don't have a TO" TO. Hard to be forgotten.

P.S. Mutombo to date never had too many endorsements so he wasn't highlighted. It doesn't mean that I still don't block people today in pick up games and wave my finger ala Mutombo. I have seen others that do the same.

 

[CaseyRyback]

[quote name='Soodmeg']You guys are crazy, one I didnt mean for Joe Johnson to be in the HOF conversation...he is simply considered a all star. (I dont even like the guy) Although I should have put a space or something to make sure he wasnt assumed to be in the same conversation. My bad.

Also, Steve Nash and those guys will be forgotten (this isnt to say they are not amazing)...ummmmm how many times have you heard John Stockon's name in the last couple years? Uhhh none. How about Malone? No go...

And to Dmaul what about your boy Shawn Kemp who likely is top 3 in
oh shit...on the court moments," no mention anywhere. Chris Webber? 5 time all star no mention anywhere. Dikembe Mutombo? One of the greatest defenders of all time 8 time all star 6 time defensive all star. No press. Why isnt Reggie Miller mentioned with the greatest of all time even though he clearly is...and probably leads the world in on the court moments....oh yea..no ring means no one cares. (Although he is an amazing commentator) The greatest big man of all time in Patrick Ewing barely gets mentioned when talking about the big men of this generation.



I will agree with on the court play mixed with rings = legacy but to say that rings dont mean anything is crazy. In the worlds most famous quote...you play to win the game not to look good for a while then retire.

Now excuse me as I watch a tv ad with Larry Bird.[/QUOTE]

Any time the pick and roll is mentioned people talk about Stockton and Malone. Malone has been on TV frequently in the past few months too. Plus he got a lot of run when people were discussing top ten players this week.

Shawn Kemp was mentioned on ESPN just today.

ESPN just finished making movies about Miller and Webber.

Your logic is so skewed it is bonkers.

 

[renique46]

Dont worry people pretty soon well be talking about the hall of fame legacies of dj mbenga carlos arroyo mehmet okur and lets not forget 2 time champion and best of them all Adam "pornstache" Morrison

 

[soulvengeance]

Huh? They always talk about Ewing, especially since he's the one mentoring Howard.

 

[Prepster]

Any Heat fans plan on going to the Conference finals? Just wondering seeing as the Heat couldn't even sell out the last game against the Celtics. I plan on being at game 3 or 4, but will be rooting for DA BULLS.

 

[kube00]

Some of the posts hurt my brain. Adam Morrison didn't the Wizard cut him?

What team is Ewing son on?

 

[Soodmeg]

You guys are ridiculous. Miller, Webber and Chuck DO NOT COUNT because they are commentaries. They are in a career path that puts them on TV everyday. Its hard to forget someone who you see every day. (What movie is about Chris Webber alone...although there is a really shitty one for Reggie Miller but I will give you that)


Also it was a story about the Fab Five...not Chris Webber and the others. Come on now and the most famous thing that came from that story was Grant Hill and Jalen Rose nothing about Webber. (By the way I grew up in Detroit, I know all about the Fab Five) Also, statues give you immorality in that city but not all across America. Guys in Portland are not thinking about Malone's statue in Utah. Plus although they do get many a credit for having the best pick and roll whenever they are mention its always followed by how they couldnt win a ring. I wish I could find that quote when Karl Malone basically said it will forever feel like his career is unfinished when the LA experiment (with Gary Payton) didnt work out.

You guys are reaching hard for this.


Again, I am not saying that HOFers are not amazing players but to say that they are on the same level has a different HOFers that has multiple rings is crazy to me. Shaq will be the protype Center until Howard wins rings...not a second sooner. Jordan and Kobe will be the 2 guards, Larry Bird will be the 3 Tim Ducan will be the 4. (Notice that all of my choices span the era that I could personal watch. That plays a huge role in remembering the best.....kids watching now wont remember/care about Malone as when they read about him and the other it will just be a bunch of numbers with no rings.)

You know what they all have in common....HOF careers with Rings. Hell arent some of you the same people who spout that Bron cant be "the best" at anything in the NBA because he doesnt have any championships? That was the biggest anit-Bron debate for the last 8 or so years. But now that it looks like he really might get one its all of a sudden..."meh rings dont matter."


I just dont see how you can say rings dont matter when that is the purpose of playing. This isnt college where getting close actually matters. I think the problem stems from that fact that the NBA is the least exciting sport as far has championship contenders. Its been so stagnate for so long that people are downgrading things like winning the freaking championship as a secondary stat.

FOR SHAME!


I will listen to your rebuttals but after this next round we will drop it. Dont want to stank up the thread too much. Congrats to the Bulls for beating out the Hawks.

 

[lordopus99]

[quote name='Soodmeg']You guys are ridiculous. Miller, Webber and Chuck DO NOT COUNT because they are commentaries. They are in a career path that puts them on TV everyday. Its hard to forget someone who you see every day. [/quote]
You made the claim that no one would remember them, not me or anyone else in this thread.

Also it was a story about the Fab Five...not Chris Webber and the others. Come on now and the most famous thing that came from that story was Grant Hill and Jalen Rose nothing about Webber. (By the way I grew up in Detroit, I know all about the Fab Five)

I guess you and I saw a completely different documentary. Webber is feature way more than the Rose/Duke deal. Whether it was when he was recruited, the clip packages from the games where he dominates, or the chunk of it that talks about the "non-TO" TO vs UNC. Here for your viewing pleasure (4:30ish is where it starts).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFEt2aNsY84&feature=related

Also, statues give you immorality in that city but not all across America. Guys in Portland are not thinking about Malone's statue in Utah. Plus although they do get many a credit for having the best pick and roll whenever they are mention its always followed by how they couldnt win a ring. I wish I could find that quote when Karl Malone basically said it will forever feel like his career is unfinished when the LA experiment (with Gary Payton) didnt work out.

Please name some other people with statues near arenas where they weren't a legend at their sport. Karl Malone is one of the few that got that treatment.

You guys are reaching hard for this.

Again, I am not saying that HOFers are not amazing players but to say that they are on the same level has a different HOFers that has multiple rings is crazy to me.

Remembering a player is remembering a player for how they played. Winning a championship is remembering a team for how they played, not the player.

In the era for the players you mentioned, Detroit won 2 championships and made the finals tons during that time yet I hear more about Stockton and Malone than I do of Thomas and Dumars.

Will Robert Horry be remembered like Dominique will? Hell no. The dude won plenty of championships with huge game winners but on a normal level playing was an average guy.

A player will be remember for how they performed and the fans they gained over the years, not because of whatever accolades they won, whether it be a championship or awards.

Hell arent some of you the same people who spout that Bron cant be "the best" at anything in the NBA because he doesnt have any championships? That was the biggest anit-Bron debate for the last 8 or so years. But now that it looks like he really might get one its all of a sudden..."meh rings dont matter."

Please don't bring up the Bron situation again. I personally said he is one of the best. I personally think if his career continues the way it has he is easily a Top 10 HoF player (whether he gets a ring or not). Again I bring it to the original argument over Bron... Cleveland: With Bron 61 wins, without Bron 19 wins. (current)
Chicago: With Jordan 57 wins, without Jordan 55 wins (93-94)

 

[Javery]

This is why there should be a HoF pyramid like Simmons is always going on about. It really makes the most sense. This way you can say Barkley and Jordan are Hall of Famers but you can still acknowledge the difference. Here is his ranking (it's outdated but still pretty good):

Level 1

96. Tom Chambers
95. Jo Jo White
94. Jack Twyman
93. Kevin Johnson
92. Bob Lanier
91. Dwight Howard
90. Chris Paul
89. Shawn Kemp
88. Gail Goodrich
87. Connie Hawkins
86. Arvydas Sabonis
85. Robert Horry
84. Cliff Hagan
83. Vince Carter
82. Chris Mullin
81. Dave Bing
80. Bailey Howell
79. Bobby Dandridge
78. Paul Westphal
77. Dan Issel
76. Artis Gilmore
75. Tracy McGrady
74. Joe Dumars
73. Sidney Moncrief
72. Chris Webber
71. Lenny Wilkens
70. David Thompson
69. Dennis Rodman
68. Pete Maravich
67. Earl Monroe
66. Adrian Dantley
65. Alex English
64. Jerry Lucas
63. Ray Allen
62. Reggie Miller

Level 2

61. Bob McAdoo
60. Nate Archibald
59. Robert Parish
58. Bernard King
57. Tommy Heinsohn
56. Paul Arizin
55. Dominique Wilkins
54. Paul Pierce
53. Dwayne Wade
52. Dennis Johnson
51. Bill Sharman
50. Dolph Schayes
49. Elvin Hayes
48. James Worthy
47. Billy Cunningham
46. Hal Greer
45. Dave DeBusschere
44. Nate Thurmond
43. Clyde Drexler
42. Jason Kidd
41. Wes Unseld
40. Gary Payton
39. Patrick Ewing
38. Steve Nash
37. Dirk Nowitzki

Level 3

36. George Mikan
35. Kevin McHale
34. George Gervin
33. Sam Jones
32. Walt Frazier
31. Dave Cowens
30. Willis Reed
29. Allen Iverson
28. David Robinson
27. Bill Walton
26. Rick Barry
25. John Stockton

Level 4

24. Scottie Pippen
23. Isiah Thomas
22. Kevin Garnett
21. Bob Cousy
20. LeBron James
19. Charles Barkley
18. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
16. Julius Erving
15. Kobe Bryant
14. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek

The Pantheon

12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Javery']This is why there should be a HoF pyramid like Simmons is always going on about. It really makes the most sense. This way you can say Barkley and Jordan are Hall of Famers but you can still acknowledge the difference. Here is his ranking (it's outdated but still pretty good):

Level 1

96. Tom Chambers
95. Jo Jo White
94. Jack Twyman
93. Kevin Johnson
92. Bob Lanier
91. Dwight Howard
90. Chris Paul
89. Shawn Kemp
88. Gail Goodrich
87. Connie Hawkins
86. Arvydas Sabonis
85. Robert Horry
84. Cliff Hagan
83. Vince Carter
82. Chris Mullin
81. Dave Bing
80. Bailey Howell
79. Bobby Dandridge
78. Paul Westphal
77. Dan Issel
76. Artis Gilmore
75. Tracy McGrady
74. Joe Dumars
73. Sidney Moncrief
72. Chris Webber
71. Lenny Wilkens
70. David Thompson
69. Dennis Rodman
68. Pete Maravich
67. Earl Monroe
66. Adrian Dantley
65. Alex English
64. Jerry Lucas
63. Ray Allen
62. Reggie Miller

Level 2

61. Bob McAdoo
60. Nate Archibald
59. Robert Parish
58. Bernard King
57. Tommy Heinsohn
56. Paul Arizin
55. Dominique Wilkins
54. Paul Pierce
53. Dwayne Wade
52. Dennis Johnson
51. Bill Sharman
50. Dolph Schayes
49. Elvin Hayes
48. James Worthy
47. Billy Cunningham
46. Hal Greer
45. Dave DeBusschere
44. Nate Thurmond
43. Clyde Drexler
42. Jason Kidd
41. Wes Unseld
40. Gary Payton
39. Patrick Ewing
38. Steve Nash
37. Dirk Nowitzki

Level 3

36. George Mikan
35. Kevin McHale
34. George Gervin
33. Sam Jones
32. Walt Frazier
31. Dave Cowens
30. Willis Reed
29. Allen Iverson
28. David Robinson
27. Bill Walton
26. Rick Barry
25. John Stockton

Level 4

24. Scottie Pippen
23. Isiah Thomas
22. Kevin Garnett
21. Bob Cousy
20. LeBron James
19. Charles Barkley
18. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
16. Julius Erving
15. Kobe Bryant
14. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek

The Pantheon

12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan[/QUOTE]

I can almost agree with that list except for Vince Carter, Sabonis, and McGrady, I don't think they should be on the list at all.

 

[Javery]

I agree - also Nowitzki and Kobe need to be higher up the list.

 

[dmaul1114]

[quote name='Javery']I agree - also Nowitzki and Kobe need to be higher up the list.[/QUOTE]

As noted, the list is a few years old now I think, so they'd probably be higher on it if he updated it.

I think Vince Carter is deserving. McGrady less so because of injuries limiting his career, and agree that Sabonis is an odd choise.

 

[FriskyTanuki]

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/04/naismith-hall-of-fame/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

Arvydas Sabonis went into the Hall of Fame earlier this year, so he kind of should be on a list of Hall of Famers even if it's full of current players.

 

[dmaul1114]

Guess I missed that. He doesn't seem like Hall of Fame material to me. But maybe the basketball isn't as selective as the baseball hall of fame where really only the superstars get in.

 

[62t]

With Sabonis they are factoring his Europe and International career. By the time he got in the NBA he was no longer the same player due to injuries.

 

[dmaul1114]

Doc Rivers signed a 5-year extension with the Celtics.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6540602

 

[FriskyTanuki]

[quote name='62t']With Sabonis they are factoring his Europe and International career. By the time he got in the NBA he was no longer the same player due to injuries.[/QUOTE]
It's this, as they have multiple committees to pick candidates each year:

As of 2011, the induction process employs a total of six committees to both screen and elect candidates. Four of these committees screen prospective candidates:[3]

• North American Screening Committee (9 members)
• Women's Screening Committee (7 members)
• International Screening Committee (7 members)
• Veterans Screening Committee (7 members), with "Veterans" defined as individuals whose careers ended at least 35 years before they are considered for election.[4]

Two committees formed in 2011 directly elect one candidate for each induction class:[3]

• American Basketball Association Committee
• Early African-American Pioneers of the Game Committee

 

[dmaul1114]

Ah, that makes sense. I'd forgotten it was a broad hall of fame for all of basketball and not just the NBA/American basketball.

 

[renique46]

i think the refs just called the first breathe on foul on tony allen lmao i thought that kind of stuff was only reserved for d wade

 

[MillerTime2523]

[quote name='lordopus99']Again I bring it to the original argument over Bron... Cleveland: With Bron 61 wins, without Bron 19 wins. (current)
Chicago: With Jordan 57 wins, without Jordan 55 wins (93-94)[/QUOTE]
You mean Cleveland without Lebron, Shaq, Big Z, Delonte West, and Antwaan Jamison and Varejao for half the season, right? Hardly the same thing in any stretch of the imagination.

 

[mis0]

Z-Bo is a ing beast! That fat knows how to score!

With my Lakers gone, I'm rooting for OKC. The Grizz/Thunder series has been crazy!

 

[wwe101]

Zbo was balling tonight, he showed the footwork, the soft touch around the basket, and the jumper.

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='wwe101']Zbo was balling tonight, he showed the footwork, the soft touch around the basket, and the jumper.[/QUOTE]

I remember a little while ago when all the commentators were saying how overrated he was. I never could quite understand how a 20-10 guy could be that overrated really.

 

[vlv723]

My first playoff game and FedExForum was in loud tonight! GO GRIZZLIES!

Win or Lose Sunday, this has been a great season for them. They will be more dangerous next season when Rudy Gay comes back and maybe add in a few more pieces.

 

[Kendro]

[quote name='Javery']I agree - also Nowitzki and Kobe need to be higher up the list.[/QUOTE]

He has an updated list in the paperback version of The Book of Basketball. Your list is from the hardcover edition which was before Kobe won 2 in a row. I believe he is 8th in front of Jerry West but behind Tim Duncan.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='docvinh']Let's not start on the PER argument again. That being said, Clyde Drexler and Dr. J are thought of as some of the best players of their time.[/QUOTE]And both do, in fact, have a ring.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='Javery']
The Pantheon

12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan[/QUOTE]Bill Simmons is a wise, wise man. That whole list is pretty much spot on, including THE PANTHEON, though I would nitpick the order, particularly moving The Dream up, definitely ahead of Duncan.

Being from Houston, I'm biased, but honestly the only center I would defer to as higher than Olajuwan is Lew Alcinder/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, even though I would personally put The Dream in front.

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

[quote name='Gentlegamer']Bill Simmons is a wise, wise man. That whole list is pretty much spot on, including THE PANTHEON, though I would nitpick the order, particularly moving The Dream up, definitely ahead of Duncan.

Being from Houston, I'm biased, but honestly the only center I would defer to as higher than Olajuwan is Lew Alcinder/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, even though I would personally put The Dream in front.[/QUOTE]
I'm partial to Shaq, but primarily because when I think of his career I think of those years of dominance with the Lakers. When I think about his career as a whole, I suppose he should be where he's at on the pantheon list.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='Lieutenant Dan']I'm partial to Shaq, but primarily because when I think of his career I think of those years of dominance with the Lakers. When I think about his career as a whole, I suppose he should be where he's at on the pantheon list.[/QUOTE]When I think of Shaq, I think of his tears after being swept in the 95 Finals. :lol:

 

[Seifer]

I'm really hoping the Grizzles win Sunday, but if comes down to the Mavericks and Grizzles playing in the Western Finals, I want the Mavericks to win....

and screw the Miami Heat, the Bulls have a better all-around team

 

[CaseyRyback]

[quote name='Gentlegamer']Bill Simmons is a wise, wise man. That whole list is pretty much spot on, including THE PANTHEON, though I would nitpick the order, particularly moving The Dream up, definitely ahead of Duncan.

Being from Houston, I'm biased, but honestly the only center I would defer to as higher than Olajuwan is Lew Alcinder/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, even though I would personally put The Dream in front.[/QUOTE]

Even though he played some C most people consider Duncan the best PF ever. Dream got knocked because of some of managements decisions and those lost years in the late 80's. If he had a decent team around him he would have been higher.

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

[quote name='Gentlegamer']Bill Simmons is a wise, wise man. That whole list is pretty much spot on, including THE PANTHEON, though I would nitpick the order, particularly moving The Dream up, definitely ahead of Duncan.

Being from Houston, I'm biased, but honestly the only center I would defer to as higher than Olajuwan is Lew Alcinder/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, even though I would personally put The Dream in front.[/QUOTE]
The list is good, but can we get some love for this man?

I'm sick and tired of my man Jeff Hornacek being snubbed. I'd say Pantheon, but I'd settle for Level 4.

 

[dmaul1114]

[quote name='CaseyRyback']Even though he played some C most people consider Duncan the best PF ever. Dream got knocked because of some of managements decisions and those lost years in the late 80's. If he had a decent team around him he would have been higher.[/QUOTE]

Yep, plus Duncan has 4 titles.

Hakeem won two, but probably wouldn't have got either of Jordan hadn't ed around with baseball, so that hurts his rep a tiny bit.

 

[62t]

Jordan also got much better teammates than Olajuwan. Olajuwan won in 94 without another star player and beat other HoFer like Robinson and Ewing. The Bulls won 55 games after Jordan's first retirement.

 

[iversonwii]

[quote name='Soodmeg']
I will listen to your rebuttals but after this next round we will drop it. Dont want to stank up the thread too much. Congrats to the Bulls for beating out the Hawks.[/QUOTE]

Your argument was that a player is instantly forgotten if he doesn't win a championship. You don't expect to catch flack for that? Taking out your new "commentators and announcers don't count" rule we still have Dominique, Stockton + Malone, Iverson, Ewing, David Thompson, Elgin Baylor.....These players are mentioned during broadcasts all the time whether it's legendary games, statistical rankings, who someone today plays like, etc.

Do you honestly think current guys like Dirk, Lebron, Nash, D.Howard, Carmelo, Kidd etc. will never be spoken of or thought of again after they turn in their jerseys if they never win a ring? A ring is important for sure. But you're exaggerations to defend your opinions are hilarious. Even beyond skills and wins basketball is such a cultural sport that you're forgetting about style and influence on and off the court. A lot of us have been watching the league for 4 or more decades. We've seen the great ones come and go and we still think of them often.

 

[soulvengeance]

[quote name='Gentlegamer']Bill Simmons is a wise, wise man. That whole list is pretty much spot on, including THE PANTHEON, though I would nitpick the order, particularly moving The Dream up, definitely ahead of Duncan.

Being from Houston, I'm biased, but honestly the only center I would defer to as higher than Olajuwan is Lew Alcinder/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, even though I would personally put The Dream in front.[/QUOTE]

Olajuwon is one of my favorite players, but no way is he better then Wilt.

 

[lordopus99]

[quote name='MillerTime2523']You mean Cleveland without Lebron, Shaq, Big Z, Delonte West, and Antwaan Jamison and Varejao for half the season, right? Hardly the same thing in any stretch of the imagination.[/QUOTE]

I knew the convo would come back up.

Shaq - avg beastly numbers 9 pts, 4 boards this season - past due retire since he spends 1/3 the season on injured reserve for the past couple of years.
Big Z - avg beastly numbers this season 5pts, 4 boards on a team that is starting Joel ing Anthony; that tells you how bad he is. He only played in 09 due to Shaq not playing.
Delonte - avg 20 min in 60 games in 09; this year his beastly numbers are 5pts, 1.5 boards - Backup
Varejo - Really... come on. Dude's Overrated. 8 pts, 6 boards in 28 min... nonfactor (outside his flop ability). Handicap his averages on their games and the Cavs would still look as bad, maybe even worse since the people that stepped in play better that Varejo does.
Jamison - This year he still played 56 games, 3 more than Shaq did in 09 run. Yes, he might now be their "superstar" but Jamison is old. He isn't the same guy he was. So even if he played in the other games, I still don't see a difference in the outcome.

These guys went down in averages due to people actually now guarding them instead of double/triple Lebron anymore thus they actually had to perform, not take open shots.

Can we please just accept that Cavs collapse is all due to Lebron leaving... and just enjoy the playoffs...

 

[FriskyTanuki]

[quote name='lordopus99']I knew the convo would come back up.

Shaq - avg beastly numbers 9 pts, 4 boards this season - past due retire since he spends 1/3 the season on injured reserve for the past couple of years.
Big Z - avg beastly numbers this season 5pts, 4 boards on a team that is starting Joel ing Anthony; that tells you how bad he is. He only played in 09 due to Shaq not playing.
Delonte - avg 20 min in 60 games in 09; this year his beastly numbers are 5pts, 1.5 boards - Backup
Varejo - Really... come on. Dude's Overrated. 8 pts, 6 boards in 28 min... nonfactor (outside his flop ability). Handicap his averages on their games and the Cavs would still look as bad, maybe even worse since the people that stepped in play better that Varejo does.
Jamison - This year he still played 56 games, 3 more than Shaq did in 09 run. Yes, he might now be their "superstar" but Jamison is old. He isn't the same guy he was. So even if he played in the other games, I still don't see a difference in the outcome.

These guys went down in averages due to people actually now guarding them instead of double/triple Lebron anymore thus they actually had to perform, not take open shots.

Can we please just accept that Cavs collapse is all due to Lebron leaving... and just enjoy the playoffs...[/QUOTE]
I don't know how anybody could look at the Cavs lineup in 09/10 and then 10/11 and see Lebron as the only difference. That just ignores that they lost a third of their roster over the summer and Lebron in particular leaving handicapped their appeal to get anybody of substance to fill in holes, which made the lack of draft picks an even bigger issue. They went into the 10/11 season with a shallow lineup that couldn't afford injuries, so losing Varejao, Mo Williams, Danial Gibson, and others for significant amounts of time made a bad situation even worse. It's not until now that they have an actual off-season to rebuild the team.

Just looking at the stats, the four major players that left accounted for 58 points per game last season, over 20 minutes per game, and they all played over 50 games, so they were big parts of the team. JJ Hickson and Anthony Parker are the only remaining players from the 09 team that had significant starting experience and played a significant chunk of this season. I don't know why you'd base their worth on what they did this season in new situations that say nothing about what they added to the Cavs last year.

 

[Soodmeg]

[quote name='iversonwii']Your argument was that a player is instantly forgotten if he doesn't win a championship. You don't expect to catch flack for that? Taking out your new "commentators and announcers don't count" rule we still have Dominique, Stockton + Malone, Iverson, Ewing, David Thompson, Elgin Baylor.....These players are mentioned during broadcasts all the time whether it's legendary games, statistical rankings, who someone today plays like, etc.

Do you honestly think current guys like Dirk, Lebron, Nash, D.Howard, Carmelo, Kidd etc. will never be spoken of or thought of again after they turn in their jerseys if they never win a ring? A ring is important for sure. But you're exaggerations to defend your opinions are hilarious. Even beyond skills and wins basketball is such a cultural sport that you're forgetting about style and influence on and off the court. A lot of us have been watching the league for 4 or more decades. We've seen the great ones come and go and we still think of them often.[/QUOTE]


EDIT NOTE: After rereading this it comes across like I am being a dick...I am truly not. Just statements explaining my thought process.


Oh I see what happened here...a case of the internet being tone deaf. You think I am arguing a point that I am not as I didnt spell it out in detail. I foolishly do this all the time, I make an assumption that you are giving me a base level of intelligence (which isnt protocol on the internet like in real life). Do me a favor go back and reread all my post BUT give me the benefit of the doubt that I am not an idiot and I dont think people are snubbed out of history the second they take off a jersey. Then my points will become slightly clearer although you still may disagree.

My point was when recalling the greatest of all time superstars with multiply rings should come first as they have to be given a large about of credit for winning those rings....again the object of the sport IS to win the championship.

Its not just..."hey their name comes up in conversation" its how they are viewed and how they are talked about and remembered by the general populous. Key word is general here....of course us basketball fans will continue to talk about most if not all nba players but we are the exception not the rule...you have to take everyone one into account. Hell look no further than this....why do we consider the Miami Heat D-Wades team? Because he won a championship and is therefore higher on the spectrum.

Go ask some 20 year olds who they think is the best player who recently retired in their lifetime. When is the last time you heard Allen Iversons name? Who is most likely one of the greatest 2 guards in the history of the sport to never win a championship which is a stark contrast to how popular he was while he played being the 3rd highest selling jersey after only Wade and Bron.


The point his Rings have a significant impact on non basketball fans. People who dont even watch basketball all know Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe, Shaq, etc. They will not be spouting out Webber, Iverson, Miller (I am willing to bet that even if they said miller they couldnt name what team he played for) Kemp, etc etc.


I think the problem is I was thinking general populous and you were thinking nba fans. Mostly my fault for not fully explaining my points.


EDIT: I was just reminded of something which proves my point. Think of how much press Kevin Love got outside of the Wolves? Hell even on this thread. I claimed that he was doing something that should be recognized above and beyond normal awards and I was met with claims of, "Pffft...he plays for a shitty team no one cares about the Wolves."

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='CaseyRyback']Even though he played some C most people consider Duncan the best PF ever. Dream got knocked because of some of managements decisions and those lost years in the late 80's. If he had a decent team around him he would have been higher.[/QUOTE]I'm thinking of all around ability. Dream is the only player to ever be Season MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, and Finals MVP in the same season. Also one of only four players to ever score a Quadruple Double (18 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 11 blocks). Dream could block a shot (all-time blocked shot leader), or make a steal (ranked 8 all time, only guards/wing players are ahead of him on the list), then go coast-to-coast with the ball like a guard and jam it on the other end. But I am biased, like I said, and my ordering is really just a nitpick. Simmons is pretty much spot on, generally.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='Lieutenant Dan']The list is good, but can we get some love for this man?

I'm sick and tired of my man Jeff Hornacek being snubbed. I'd say Pantheon, but I'd settle for Level 4.[/QUOTE]I'm a Rockets fan. It's hard for me to give love to anyone in *that* uniform. But Hornacek deserves recognition. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='iversonwii']Your argument was that a player is instantly forgotten if he doesn't win a championship. You don't expect to catch flack for that? Taking out your new "commentators and announcers don't count" rule we still have Dominique, Stockton + Malone, Iverson, Ewing, David Thompson, Elgin Baylor.....These players are mentioned during broadcasts all the time whether it's legendary games, statistical rankings, who someone today plays like, etc.

Do you honestly think current guys like Dirk, Lebron, Nash, D.Howard, Carmelo, Kidd etc. will never be spoken of or thought of again after they turn in their jerseys if they never win a ring? A ring is important for sure. But you're exaggerations to defend your opinions are hilarious. Even beyond skills and wins basketball is such a cultural sport that you're forgetting about style and influence on and off the court. A lot of us have been watching the league for 4 or more decades. We've seen the great ones come and go and we still think of them often.[/QUOTE]True fans of the sport know who the greats are, regardless of rings, or even homer status.

 

[Soodmeg]

[quote name='Gentlegamer']True fans of the sport know who the greats are, regardless of rings, or even homer status.[/QUOTE]


This is the exact point. True fans are the minority when speaking of the overall impact and legacy of a player. I was talking about overall legacy concerning all people. Again, EVERYONE knows MJ, Larry Legend, Shaq, Kobe, etc regardless of being a fan or not and that comes down to winning championships.

 

[Gentlegamer]

[quote name='Soodmeg']This is the exact point. True fans are the minority when speaking of the overall impact and legacy of a player. I was talking about overall legacy concerning all people. Again, EVERYONE knows MJ, Larry Legend, Shaq, Kobe, etc regardless of being a fan or not and that comes down to winning championships.[/QUOTE]Ok . . . so it's the 'mass market' argument. There's always that 'disconnect' no matter the subject, be it literature, films, or video games. Sports are no different.

 

[lordopus99]

[quote name='FriskyTanuki']I don't know how anybody could look at the Cavs lineup in 09/10 and then 10/11 and see Lebron as the only difference. That just ignores that they lost a third of their roster over the summer and Lebron in particular leaving handicapped their appeal to get anybody of substance to fill in holes, which made the lack of draft picks an even bigger issue.[/quote]

Losing these pieces would be major if they actually did something else off the team, which they didn't. Instead they have gone back to being bench players or on the IR. West was traded so obviously the franchise didn't feel his worth. He was then cut by Minn, a team that has had issues themselves. Shaq and Z are has-beens that can't stay healthy, let alone play significant minutes when they are asked.

They went into the 10/11 season with a shallow lineup that couldn't afford injuries, so losing Varejao, Mo Williams, Danial Gibson, and others for significant amounts of time made a bad situation even worse. It's not until now that they have an actual off-season to rebuild the team.

Just looking at the stats, the four major players that left accounted for 58 points per game last season, over 20 minutes per game, and they all played over 50 games, so they were big parts of the team. JJ Hickson and Anthony Parker are the only remaining players from the 09 team that had significant starting experience and played a significant chunk of this season. I don't know why you'd base their worth on what they did this season in new situations that say nothing about what they added to the Cavs last year.

Injuries the problem? an example in point...
Dec 7, 2010 - All "injured" players playing - Philly crushed them 117-97.

If Williams was so huge, why did he also get dealt for an aged B Diddy? Let me answer that for you. It was because the minutes he did played were so lackadaisical.

You forgot to add Jamison (56) and Gibson (67). They meet your criteria.

Again, I base their worth (current and ex-Cavs members from 2009-10 season) on what they do this season as they have lost the factor of Lebron James on their teams i.e. Lebron was double/triple coverage, leaving others open.

 

[Soodmeg]

[quote name='lordopus99']Losing these pieces would be major if they actually did something else off the team, which they didn't. Instead they have gone back to being bench players or on the IR. West was traded so obviously the franchise didn't feel his worth. He was then cut by Minn, a team that has had issues themselves. Shaq and Z are has-beens that can't stay healthy, let alone play significant minutes when they are asked.



Injuries the problem? an example in point...
Dec 7, 2010 - All "injured" players playing - Philly crushed them 117-97.

If Williams was so huge, why did he also get dealt for an aged B Diddy? Let me answer that for you. It was because the minutes he did played were so lackadaisical.

You forgot to add Jamison (56) and Gibson (67). They meet your criteria.

Again, I base their worth (current and ex-Cavs members from 2009-10 season) on what they do this season as they have lost the factor of Lebron James on their teams i.e. Lebron was double/triple coverage, leaving others open.[/QUOTE]


I agree with all points. Sorry Frisky, but the stats are the stats the Cavs put all their chips in the Bron basket and he carried that team. When he left you could really see why they could never get over the hump...that team and its players are horrid and the Cavs should be ashamed for blowing their chance to truly be a dynasty by never putting the proper players around Bron.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Cavaliers won 60+ games the last two seasons with James. 82 games a year don't lie. Those teams were title contenders but grossly underachieved in the playoffs. That underachievement *gasp* started with James himself. He has no one to blame but himself. His quitting on the Cavs last year and his statement this year shows he does not have the heart of a champion. Honest question for those with a historical perspective: who had the better supporting cast, relative to the talent faced in their respective playoff runs - Hakeem Olajuwon in 1994 or LeBron James in 2009 and 2010?

 

[iversonwii]

Had Westbrook played this style all series long OKC would've won in 5 games. Durant should always be the first option. That was an asskicking.

 

[renique46]

Great season Memphis definitely deserved to go all the way played hard every game despite the score and earned every victory and didnt have to have league assisted help to advance.