2012 Election Thread

[quote name='Clak']And I'd like to have a real debate, but that's impossible when one side starts from the assumption that the other is starting from a base of pants on head, shitting yourself stupidity.[/QUOTE]

ftfy
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So... are you going to resurrect the dead slave masters or are you going to make their descendants pay the piper?

I.e.: Sins of the Father.[/QUOTE]
It's not the "sins of the father" when their "children" are still perpetuating the system.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Yup yup. It's totally my fault that I got a home loan and a guy with a different skin color didn't. Or something.[/QUOTE]
Simple answer is yes.

If you want all the good stuff you got, you have to take the bad with it. Don't like it? Then don't take it.

I can't wait until you shift goal posts again. It's happened every post so far.

edit2: There's no way you can outsmart or out-maneuver me on this one. Why bother trying?
 
I guess I get why bob and co are like they are, it's the easier way of living. Ignorance really is bliss, and it's a lot less frustrating then dealing with the truth of matters. Much less moral conflict in one's own mind, it's a lot less taxing.
 
Strange way to put it. With the word "fault" in there...
So you benefit from a system designed in a manner that doesn't include equal access: that allows you to get a loan at the expense of others.
You know there's a big difference between feeling ashamed of the fact and being proud of the fact?
You're acknowledging the system , then detaching yourself from the consequences of participation in the system that perpetuates the inequalities. Maybe dont focus on the sins of the father, just awareness of reality will do.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']From DD's point of view I can, recognize that the guy before me was off his rocker when he installed such a system. Then work to gradually improve the system while explaining to employer the reason why things are the way they are and hopefully get to an fair understanding with my client.

Or

Waive my arms above my head screaming, "Sins of the Father Sins of the Father" dont hold me accountable....nothing can be my fault I.E the uncle bob plan.[/QUOTE]

See, this is where you've got it wrong.

In DD's world, you'd sit around, blame the last guy for having a crappy studio and wait for someone else to come and fix it.

In my world, you would recognize that you got a bum deal, but you wouldn't sit on your roof waiting for Bush to helicopter in and rescue you. You'd work to make the changes you can - and not get yourself into any legal obligations that you know you can't fulfill.
 
[quote name='EdRyder']So you benefit from a system designed in a manner that doesn't include equal access: that allows you to get a loan at the expense of others.
You know there's a big difference between feeling ashamed of the fact and being proud of the fact?
You're acknowledging the system , then detaching yourself from the consequences of participation in the system that perpetuates the inequalities. Maybe dont focus on the sins of the father, just awareness of reality will do.[/QUOTE]

So, wait - are we supposed to be for or against systems that are designed to not include equal access?

Because anything designed with an "Affirmative Action" type set-up would fall directly into that category.

Or are we just supposed to be against them when they don't benefit the right kind of people?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, wait - are we supposed to be for or against systems that are designed to not include equal access?

Because anything designed with an "Affirmative Action" type set-up would fall directly into that category.

Or are we just supposed to be against them when they don't benefit the right kind of people?[/QUOTE]

Again. You guys talk about equality like its something for "them" Believe it or not , its for you too. Everyone benefits from a system of fairness and equality.
I dont even know how to address the last part lol Who are the "right type of people" The people that benefited from the system they created that only serves to perpetuate itself by excluding others for generations?
Its odd that you see the issue but wont accept any responsibility
"Cheap plastic made in China crap they sell at Sprwal Mart!!! ... When are we going to Sprawl Mart honey?"
 
The bobs of the country don't understand why affirmative action is in place in the first place, and it's completely and utterly intellectually dishonest of them. You can act ignorant if you want, but I'm not buying your bullshit for a heartbeat. Of course it would be better if we didn't need it and society really was fair and equal, but it isn't, and we do. Until the day when people stand up and take responsibility (you know, that stuff they love) for the inequalities that exist, we'll always need affirmative action. People need to fess up, come to terms with the fact that some of their bigoted and hateful beliefs are utterly wrong, and get on with it. Maybe then we can have the society we deserve.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']See, this is where you've got it wrong.

In DD's world, you'd sit around, blame the last guy for having a crappy studio and wait for someone else to come and fix it.

In my world, you would recognize that you got a bum deal, but you wouldn't sit on your roof waiting for Bush to helicopter in and rescue you. You'd work to make the changes you can - and not get yourself into any legal obligations that you know you can't fulfill.[/QUOTE]

The world as it is doesn't exist the way you choose to perceive it. (One more time , this guy read The Secret)
The work Ethic argument is tiresome. Going through the process of explaining to you how you've benefited from advantages derived from nothing more than skin color never never resonates. And I get it. Believe you me , I do. You think someone explaining that undermines your personal hardships and accomplishments. Your own personal struggle.

So lets just say for the sake of argument that you're a self made man. You never got any advantages or help along the way to get where you are.Throughout the entirety of your life you've faced adversity. You worked hard and busted your ass to get everything you've got.

So take a look around your workplace. Any "cousins"? (Theres always a cousin or a son in law or a nephew) You know exactly who I'm talking about too. His name popped into your head right away "fuckin Jim!" Yeah , that worthless dude. The guy you cant come to for anything or rely on at all. His presence alone undermines all your accomplishments and hard work. Dont dismiss it so quickly. Dont say to yourself: "Thats not my problem that's Jim's problem" No its your problem. Replace him with someone that is qualified to be there. Imagine how you'd benefit from someone that can bring a contribution to the team. Imagine how you'd 'feel' about your work ethic when suddenly the only method to achieve a level of success that's equal to YOUR OWN , is through a similar ethic.

As I said a system of fairness and equality benefits everyone.
And before anybody condemns me for abstract hypothetical. This is the same hypothetical you're laying down: "I wrote the rulebook while I played the game"
 
[quote name='Clak']And I'd like to have a real debate, but that's impossible when one side starts from a base of pants on head, shitting yourself stupidity.[/QUOTE]

Of course. Some people can't be/aren't worth, being debated with and are better just ignored IMO. Else you just risk getting sucked down to their level, which is what's happened to political discourse in the US.
 
I have to wonder if that isn't the natural state of politics. Look at some of the fights in British parliament, we still aren't to that point yet.
 
Influence on foreign countries that still vote against us in the UN and call us the great satan, somehow I don't think that we are getting much value from our money. Money that is 40% borrowed and devalued due to quantitative easing. You honestly think that we can prop up everyone else while being at least 10 trillion in debt?
 
[quote name='Clak']I have to wonder if that isn't the natural state of politics. Look at some of the fights in British parliament, we still aren't to that point yet.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if I'd call it the "natural state" of politics/political discourse, but our society isn't structured in a way that wants it's citizenry too engaged in the political process muchless politically conscious.
 
[quote name='egofed']Influence on foreign countries that still vote against us in the UN and call us the great satan, somehow I don't think that we are getting much value from our money.[/quote]
Define "value."

Money that is 40% borrowed and devalued due to quantitative easing.
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LOLZ...I'm afraid to ask...source?

You honestly think that we can prop up everyone else while being at least 10 trillion in debt?
Click to expand...
The fact of the matter is that we aren't propping everyone up.
 
So the fact Romney looked weak last night is the "strategy" he was going for? At least that is what I keep hearing on Fox News today. I know Romney got his ass handed to him last night because my brother-in-law stopped watching the debate because it got "boring". Even he knows Romney looked out of his depth last night.
 
doh, I can't remember where I originally got that stat, but
http://mercatus.org/publication/how-much-federal-spending-borrowed-every-dollar
says its .43 cents of every dollar. By value, is it strengthening or weakening our country. I know this is subjective, but that amount of borrowing seems insane unless we have an exit strategy that leaves us better off because of this heavy debt.

I wasn't trying to defend Coulter at all. I expect much better of so called respectable journalists. Name calling is the sign of weak arguments and brains. Unfortunately we all fall into that trap from time to time.

As far as affirmative action, I'll repost an experience of mine and see what you guys think "Quick personal experience about affirmative action. My department is desperate for diversity. Women and minorities are being hired with preference over white males who scored better on both the written and agility tests. Times were doctored to allow this. Now in most jobs, this would be bad enough, but when I am relying on someone to be able to drag me out of a burning house collapse, diversity means crap. The best person for the job is always the right and just ideology. Especially when my butt is on the line.;-)"

The city wants our department to be more representative of the population we serve. Sounds good on paper, right? But when you are in a life or death situation, do you care about the ratio by skin color of the people who get off the truck, or do you want the people who studied harder, trained harder, and are more physically able to do the job? Physical agility tests are color blind, and the written is such a joke that anyone who scores less than a 90 should have their high school diploma revoked.
 
Not everyone has a job that is life threatening. Besides that, if they can't find any qualified non-white people, what kind of white washed town do you live in?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']robble robble he's just lost without a teleprompter robble robble.[/QUOTE]

I always find that criticism of Obama so amusing. I know it's meant to undermine the fact that people say Obama is a good speaker, but do they seriously think he's the first president to rely on a teleprompter? Sorry, but I'd much rather my president actually be working rather than sitting around and memorizing speeches. What do they think about the presidents prior to teleprompters that used *gasp* written speeches and notes?
 
[quote name='Cantatus']I always find that criticism of Obama so amusing. I know it's meant to undermine the fact that people say Obama is a good speaker, but do they seriously think he's the first president to rely on a teleprompter? Sorry, but I'd much rather my president actually be working rather than sitting around and memorizing speeches. What do they think about the presidents prior to teleprompters that used *gasp* written speeches and notes?[/QUOTE]
Castro 2012.
 
[quote name='Cantatus']I always find that criticism of Obama so amusing. I know it's meant to undermine the fact that people say Obama is a good speaker, but do they seriously think he's the first president to rely on a teleprompter? Sorry, but I'd much rather my president actually be working rather than sitting around and memorizing speeches. What do they think about the presidents prior to teleprompters that used *gasp* written speeches and notes?[/QUOTE]

Skip ahead to about 7:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGp043tHAc8
 
[quote name='egofed']

The city wants our department to be more representative of the population we serve. Sounds good on paper, right? But when you are in a life or death situation, do you care about the ratio by skin color of the people who get off the truck, or do you want the people who studied harder, trained harder, and are more physically able to do the job? Physical agility tests are color blind, and the written is such a joke that anyone who scores less than a 90 should have their high school diploma revoked.[/QUOTE]

Square this circle for me : In an effort to create a department that reflects the community , the department would be forced to accept people that couldn't pass the PAT??? How , Why , WTF?
 
Not many blacks apply for the fire department. I talked with our recruiter, who is the guy who got caught doctoring times, and he said that not enough blacks want that particular job. Does it really matter if the job was life threatening? Shouldn't you always want the best person for the position?

We have a few people who failed the test multiple times, but I'm more concerned about those who were hired ahead of others who completed the test much faster and competently. You wouldn't believe how blatant some of this has been.
 
[quote name='egofed']Not many blacks apply for the fire department. I talked with our recruiter, who is the guy who got caught doctoring times, and he said that not enough blacks want that particular job. Does it really matter if the job was life threatening? Shouldn't you always want the best person for the position?[/quote]
Riddle me this: why don't they?

We have a few people who failed the test multiple times, but I'm more concerned about those who were hired ahead of others who completed the test much faster and competently. You wouldn't believe how blatant some of this has been.
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Why? Is there a clause that says you can use your knees to do push ups? Are there different times depending on your age or something?:rofl:
 
I don't know why, doh. But I believe that you are going to explain it via some historical injustice. ;-) The standards are supposed to be the same regardless of age, sex, etc. Pulling a charged 2 1/2 line and moving a 180 lb dummy can be difficult for some people, but the job requires it. People are coddled a lot more these days, and don't lose their jobs for not maintaining their physical fitness. I know you have seen some real porker firefighters....It's embarrassing.;-)

Is that .43 cent stat legit?
 
What about just basic 'I dont see any black firefighters with my own two eyes' so no reason to even apply. No need for historical significance when you can just observe.

Whatareyoueven doing serving the community as a fireman anyway? Thought you were a firm believer in the private sector?:lol: :p
 
[quote name='egofed']I don't know why, doh. But I believe that you are going to explain it via some historical injustice.;-)[/QUOTE]
If you don't know why, why did you bring that up to defend your stance to begin with? I don't need to explain why if you're not providing answers and only concern trolling.

The standards are supposed to be the same regardless of age, sex, etc. Pulling a charged 2 1/2 line and moving a 180 lb dummy can be difficult for some people, but the job requires it. People are coddled a lot more these days, and don't lose their jobs for not maintaining their physical fitness. I know you have seen some real porker firefighters....It's embarrassing.;-)
Click to expand...
So you're more upset about loosening entrance standards than embarrassed about the lack of fitness of your CURRENT coworkers? Where the fuck do I even start to untangle this web of dissonance?

Is that .43 cent stat legit?
Click to expand...
Depends on your point.
 
I'm most upset about not hiring the top listed applicants. I am concerned about lowering entrance standards and not having any way of disciplining out of shape current firefighters. I'm appalled by blatant cheating in the testing process. Not sure what is so dissonant about all that....

My point is that 43% deficit spending is outrageous. Obama called it unpatriotic. What are we willing to cut? Do you truly believe that all government spending is efficient and needed?

Edryder, I love my job. Getting paid to help people is great. I do believe that the private sector is usually run more efficiently and effectively. They can actually reward merit and fire anyone who is not measuring up at the job.;-)
 
[quote name='egofed']

Edryder, I love my job. Getting paid to help people is great..;-)[/QUOTE]

Easy there commie.(I'm sorry "civil servant") Next you'll be telling me your fellow firefighters might be 'entitled' to some sort of pension.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Of course. Some people can't be/aren't worth, being debated with and are better just ignored IMO. Else you just risk getting sucked down to their level, which is what's happened to political discourse in the US.[/QUOTE]
Very few people here want a legitimate debate. They want validation of their own opinions and to insult anyone who disagrees. The presumption is that anyone with a different opinion is either uninformed or lacks intelligence.
 
I don't know what Donald Trump's stupid surprise is supposed to be Wednesday but I hope its not as lame as Gloria Allred's.

Romney in Bitter Divorce Battle
(He was called to testify about a business in someone else's divorce case) therefore he was in a BITTER DIVORCE BATTLE1!!
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Admit the system sucks dont take legal obligations I cant fill and also dont sit around waiting for helicopters.[/QUOTE]

My favorite part is how you pretty much covered everything (including the sarcastic part about waiting for helicopters)... except "You'd work to make the changes you can." Funny.

[quote name='EdRyder']So take a look around your workplace. Any "cousins"? (Theres always a cousin or a son in law or a nephew) You know exactly who I'm talking about too. His name popped into your head right away "fuckin Jim!" Yeah , that worthless dude. The guy you cant come to for anything or rely on at all. His presence alone undermines all your accomplishments and hard work. Dont dismiss it so quickly. Dont say to yourself: "Thats not my problem that's Jim's problem" No its your problem. Replace him with someone that is qualified to be there. Imagine how you'd benefit from someone that can bring a contribution to the team. Imagine how you'd 'feel' about your work ethic when suddenly the only method to achieve a level of success that's equal to YOUR OWN , is through a similar ethic.[/QUOTE]

Errr... While there may be some "cousin Jim" situations in the workplace, I can assure you I have no favorites in my work place and have taken actions that involved terminating individuals that I considered friends (even got one a new job elsewhere afterwards, against my better judgement). I do this equally and with no regards to private status of the individual involved - merely the facts of the situation.

Hell, my wife wanted me to put in a good word for an extended family member. When I asked about his work ethic, I told her flat out there was no way I'd recommend someone like that.
 
[quote name='dohdough']If you don't know why, why did you bring that up to defend your stance to begin with? I don't need to explain why if you're not providing answers and only concern trolling.[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty weak argument doh. He explained why there are not alot black firefighters, there is no way for him to know why alot more of them don't apply. If you think that some how racism is involved then it your burden to show that the application process is designed to be racist.

Though if it is like any other civil service job, most of the minority candidates are taken by companies who will pay a premium to make their workplace look diverse.
 
Or he could demonstrate that there is a historical lack of minority participation in fields like firefighting or law enforcement. Or that it's those people who typically get ignored or harassed the most by people in those fields. Why would you want to become a cop for example, when you get harassed by them all the time? Or a firefighter if they tend to play favorites to certain people?

And before he jumps in trying to defend his department, I'm not saying ego's own fire department does any of this, I'm talking about historical context.
 
I wouldn't even try to defend my dept, Clak. I've seen black firefighters "joked on" in a racist manner quite a few times. They laugh and joke right back, but it still isn't right. I never argued that racism doesn't exist, just that screwing over white people in a display of inequality does not seem like the correct way of fixing the problem. It leads to more discrimination and harsh feelings. I think it breeds more racial hatred and stereotypes than it fixes. Two wrongs don't make a right. I wish I knew of a fair and just way that gave all people true equal opportunity, punishing only those who benefited due to their own racists actions. I think you guys would say that all white people have benefited indirectly. Maybe so, but I think a lot of white firefighters who are working three jobs, have more experience, and scored higher on every test, will take exception to a minority being promoted over them. I've seen this numerous times. The last time was a little easier to swallow because the new Lt. is a smart, hard working friend of mine, but he even comments on the real reasons he was promoted so fast. One time before, they promoted a fat black guy who is basically a door chock in every working fire that I've been in with him. He actually got assigned to training, and could not/ would not run with the new recruits and did pushups on his knees..........so disheartening.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']That's a pretty weak argument doh. He explained why there are not alot black firefighters, there is no way for him to know why alot more of them don't apply. If you think that some how racism is involved then it your burden to show that the application process is designed to be racist.[/quote]
Of course he doesn't know and that was the point.

Though if it is like any other civil service job, most of the minority candidates are taken by companies who will pay a premium to make their workplace look diverse.
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Not true.
 
[quote name='egofed']I wouldn't even try to defend my dept, Clak. I've seen black firefighters "joked on" in a racist manner quite a few times. They laugh and joke right back, but it still isn't right. I never argued that racism doesn't exist, just that screwing over white people in a display of inequality does not seem like the correct way of fixing the problem. It leads to more discrimination and harsh feelings. I think it breeds more racial hatred and stereotypes than it fixes. Two wrongs don't make a right. I wish I knew of a fair and just way that gave all people true equal opportunity, punishing only those who benefited due to their own racists actions. I think you guys would say that all white people have benefited indirectly. Maybe so, but I think a lot of white firefighters who are working three jobs, have more experience, and scored higher on every test, will take exception to a minority being promoted over them. I've seen this numerous times. The last time was a little easier to swallow because the new Lt. is a smart, hard working friend of mine, but he even comments on the real reasons he was promoted so fast. One time before, they promoted a fat black guy who is basically a door chock in every working fire that I've been in with him. He actually got assigned to training, and could not/ would not run with the new recruits and did pushups on his knees..........so disheartening.[/QUOTE]
This is ridiculous. What you're implying is that in most cases, every white person deserves the position they're in and in a few cases, they get screwed because some less qualified black guy got fast tracked above another white guy that was more qualified. So rather than looking at other white guys that got fast tracked for whatever reason, you decide to focus on the most visible one, the black guy.

This is the same kind of bullshit that white kids and their parents pull on colleges and universities about affirmative action when there are tons of other white kids that got in on legacy admits, sports scholarships, etc with worse grades and test scores. This animosity really stems from "why are black people getting what white people are STILL getting?"
 
Uhhh, no. I want personal achievement, proven work, and the content of a person's character to be the determining factor in promotion. If we have a graded testing process, then the results from that testing should be used straight from the top of the list downward. You really want someone with lower scores surpassing someone with higher scores solely based on the color of their skin? If so, we will just have to agree to disagree. I will never see that as right and just.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Let's talk about polls - which do you frequently observe, which do you avoid, and why? Where are they at currently?

I look at electoral-vote.com, but typically prefer the Rasmussen-free poll this year: http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Pres/Maps/Oct24-noras.html

Why? This is a decent summary of how Rasmussen's sampling methods are consistently inaccurate in one direction: http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2012/Info/rasmussen.html[/QUOTE]
I can't find it right now, but on Reddit someone had posted a PDF with data from the last republican primary. Some interesting data in there.
 
Sometimes I think ti's more of an issue with ego than race. Somehow for some people, it's really hard to admit that they had any help in life. If they don't convince themselves that they busted their ass every inch of the way, somehow it cheapens their accomplishments.

"I busted my ass through college, worked 2 jobs, and graduated with a 4.0!"
Sounds better in someone's head than:

"I worked some through college, had some help from family and the government, and graduated with honors.".

For some reason they'd feel that only the first example is something to be proud of.
 
I hear your points, but let me explain our promotional process. We have an independent company administer and grade written and verbal assessment scenarios. The list is then released in graded order. Time and time again, more experienced white guys are passed over to get to the minorities on the list. Shouldn't they hire and promote directly down the graded list? Why even have this process if not? I've seen the Chief pass over spots to promote other white guys that are in his inner circle also. Either way, its bullcrap. I just am against promoting those with inferior scores.
 
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