2012 MLB Discussion

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[quote name='HornyPony']He's had 4 straight years of 20+ HR an solid BA AVG and is on pace to do it again this year. Judges love that longetivity. He is a solid player but not 14 mill worthy in my opinion. Knowing Sabean who did not persue Bay, Holiday, Beltran when they were available, I wouldn't be surprised to see him get traded.

fWAR is very flawed for figuring out the value of players in terms of salary.

Brett Gardner

2010: $24.6
2011: $23.1

Was Gardner really twice as valuable as Pence in 2010?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not twice as valuable, but he was certainly more valuable than Pence. He had a 58 point advantage in OBP, was a better baserunner, and is an elite defensive OF. Even if you regress his 24.9 UZR to more closely resemble his 2009 mark of 9.3, he'd have been worth around $18.5 million in 2010 dollars.
 
[quote name='HornyPony']Felix is the best pitcher in baseball. He better get an award this year.[/QUOTE]

Um. He did last year.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']Perhaps not twice as valuable, but he was certainly more valuable than Pence. He had a 58 point advantage in OBP, was a better baserunner, and is an elite defensive OF. Even if you regress his 24.9 UZR to more closely resemble his 2009 mark of 9.3, he'd have been worth around $18.5 million in 2010 dollars.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough but I don not like the emphasis of UZR on WAR. UZR is a very flaawed stat and is given too much of a value when figuring out a player' worth in my opinion.

[quote name='DestroVega']Um. He did last year.[/QUOTE]
He won the Cy in 2010 not last year.
 
Let's not get this Twisted, Kuroda did indeed pitch well, and has all season (Curse me for dropping him early on Fantasy), but the Rangers killed themselves tonight. They go up there waving at the first pitch they say. They've hardly worked counts in the two games in NY so far.

Washington needs change the line-up. Mike Olt should be playing over Mike Young (the worst player in baseball based on WAR) and Craig Gentry being delegated to a bench position is just maddening. Back to Mike Young, the man hasn't hit a homer in nearly 2 months, and has just 6 XBH in the past month or so. He's declined, and he's declined quick. And Ron Washington refusing to bench him is just mind-boggling.
 
What's weird though is that he only had 11 home runs this year...but was hitting an incredible .346. PEDs don't help your hand eye coordination or your bat speed. At first, I wanted to say "Ha...that explains it!" too considering all the below average years he spent in NY/ATL/KC. But really, if you look at his numbers, it doesn't make much sense. I really don't even see what benefit he could have been getting from them. Melky has always been mentally deficient though, so this could very easily be a case of "I think they're helping me...so they must be!" Just Melky being Melky.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']What's weird though is that he only had 11 home runs this year...but was hitting an incredible .346. PEDs don't help your hand eye coordination or your bat speed. At first, I wanted to say "Ha...that explains it!" too considering all the below average years he spent in NY/ATL/KC. But really, if you look at his numbers, it doesn't make much sense. I really don't even see what benefit he could have been getting from them. Melky has always been mentally deficient though, so this could very easily be a case of "I think they're helping me...so they must be!" Just Melky being Melky.[/QUOTE]

But they can help your bat speed in the sense they make your muscles recover quicker and fatigue over a season can wear you down.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']But they can help your bat speed in the sense they make your muscles recover quicker and fatigue over a season can wear you down.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but so could "less partying", which is something Melky also had a problem with.
 
There have been 4 no-hitters against Tampa Bay in the last 3-4 years, as well. I wonder if the Rays fans come to expect it now.
 
[quote name='GhostShark']There have been 4 no-hitters against Tampa Bay in the last 3-4 years, as well. I wonder if the Rays fans come to expect it now.[/QUOTE]
Ahahaha Rays fans..good one.

Tampa realizes that there is a team a few miles away from the city when Rays make the post season.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']What's weird though is that he only had 11 home runs this year...but was hitting an incredible .346. PEDs don't help your hand eye coordination or your bat speed. At first, I wanted to say "Ha...that explains it!" too considering all the below average years he spent in NY/ATL/KC. But really, if you look at his numbers, it doesn't make much sense. I really don't even see what benefit he could have been getting from them. Melky has always been mentally deficient though, so this could very easily be a case of "I think they're helping me...so they must be!" Just Melky being Melky.[/QUOTE]

Bond's average went through the roof when he started hitting the juice. He went from being 1A/1B with Griffey as far as best player of his generation to being the third best hitter of all time.
 
Braves continue to play well--20 games over .500 now. Just can't make up ground in the NL East as the Nats keep wining and have the best record in baseball.

Kind of cool that Chipper hit two homers last night as it was his bobblehead giveaway night. Strong outing from Medlen with a 5 hit complete game shutout. Him, Maholm and Sheets have sured up the rotation and pretty much negated losing Beachy for the year and Jurrjens sucking this year.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Bond's average went through the roof when he started hitting the juice. He went from being 1A/1B with Griffey as far as best player of his generation to being the third best hitter of all time.[/QUOTE]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=1109,327

Bonds had him by over 50 points in OBP, 200 SB, and in 230 fewer AB, had 7 fewer HR. Bonds bested Griffey in wOBA by 32 points (about the difference between Andrew McCutchen and Austin Jackson this season) and wRC+ by 27 points (difference between Ryan Braun and Alex Rios this season). Bonds played most of his home games in Candlestick, with Griffey playing in homer happy Kingdome.

It's not 1A/1B, Bonds is the clear winner of the 90s.
 
Going into 1990, Bonds already had 4 full seasons under his belt and was 25 years old. Griffey was a rookie in '89 and 20 years old going into the season. Comparing the two guys purely on the stats they accumulated during that 10 year stretch doesn't tell the whole story. Also, Griffey was one of the best defensive center fielders of his generation. Now, of course, in his prime, Bonds was a great outfielder, too, but at the end of the day, a great center fielder is better than a great left fielder.

Also, in '99, if you asked 100 baseball fans who was more likely to break Hank Aaron's record, all 100 would have said Griffey. At the point, it was basically a foregone conclusion in everyone's mind that Griffey was going to be the homerun king.

[quote name='CaseyRyback']http://deadspin.com/5935831/the-crime-dog-rips-melky-cabrera-a-new-one

This is part of the reason I love the Crime Dog. Best nickname, best commercial, and the fact that steroid users make his numbers look pedestrian is ridiculous. He needs to get into the HOF with that damn Tom Emanski hat on his bust.[/QUOTE]

McGriff needs to start getting the same consideration that Jim Rice got. Just like Rice, McGriff was FEARED in the '90s. I remember he scared the balls off of me everytime he got up in the '96 series against the Yankees.
 
Bruce is right. Don't let this century taint how you view the kid. Griffey in his prime was unreal.

This is coming from a Bonds fan so it isn't like I am discounting Bonds at all. He did more to carry his team and had a far worse supporting cast.
 
Growing up, I hated Griffey, especially after he completely owned the Yankees in the '95 ALDS. But the man was beyond freakin' electric. He didn't run...he simply glided...and his swing was a thing of beauty. Such a shame that injuries did him in.
 
Being a Rangers fan since the I first started loving baseball as a kid, I could never hate Ken Griffey Jr. (mostly because his name was on all my gloves) despite him being a divisional rival for so many years. The way he played inspired an entire generation of youngsters to play the game. And I was among the crowd that thought he would break the home run record, then he went to Cinci and became a walking injury.
 
[quote name='Jodou']Lol, that dude is garbage and doesn't deserve the ring he's got.[/QUOTE]

False. He was vital to the 09 team winning the World Series. Yankees aren't paying him like Werth though. Even Werth doesn't deserve that deal lol.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Growing up, I hated Griffey, especially after he completely owned the Yankees in the '95 ALDS. But the man was beyond freakin' electric. He didn't run...he simply glided...and his swing was a thing of beauty. Such a shame that injuries did him in.[/QUOTE]
Man. Dat swing.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']False. He was vital to the 09 team winning the World Series. Yankees aren't paying him like Werth though. Even Werth doesn't deserve that deal lol.[/QUOTE]

I think vital is a pretty strong word. A lot of players could have filled the role Swisher has with the Yankees. But he has been a good player. His playoff numbers are beyond laughable, though.

You already pointed out the flaw inherent to Swisher's demands: Werth didn't deserve the deal he got. There's the case of people getting overpaid...and then there's the Werth contract. A very, very, very desperate team with a lot of money would have to be get suckered into giving Swisher that kind of deal. Like Werth was with the Phils, Swisher's a product of being protected by a powerful lineup and playing home games in a hitter's park.
 
I dunno, but I think the Nationals actually playing good ball inspired Werth to play well once he got back from his wrist injury. The Nationals are 7 games up on the Braves after tonight. They'll probably be at 81 wins before the end of the month at this rate, guaranteeing a +.500 record for the first time since they got to Washington.
 
No surprise.

All these guys who are getting positive tests, and had obvious rejuvenation, is making me real worried about Jeter.

I think he's smarter than that, but obviously nothing's sacred.
 
[quote name='DestroVega']No surprise.

All these guys who are getting positive tests, and had obvious rejuvenation, is making me real worried about Jeter.

I think he's smarter than that, but obviously nothing's sacred.[/QUOTE]

If Jeter had a positive test come up, I think that would be the final nail in the coffin for this entire era of baseball. Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, A-Rod, Manny, Ortiz, Pujols...and then Jeter? At that point, you might as well seal up the record book at 1985 and start over.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']If Jeter had a positive test come up, I think that would be the final nail in the coffin for this entire era of baseball. Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, A-Rod, Manny, Ortiz, Pujols...and then Jeter? At that point, you might as well seal up the record book at 1985 and start over.[/QUOTE]

What about greenies? Are you not going to count those as a performance enhancing drug?
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']What about greenies? Are you not going to count those as a performance enhancing drug?[/QUOTE]

You don't have to convince me. If you can convince the media and the rest of society in general that PEDs have always been a "part of sports", then we can talk. I'm just saying, as negatively as this era has been viewed already, if Jeter were to go down too, there would basically be nothing left to stand on.

The other problem is, now we've got solid proof of who was caught using what. The argument against greenies is basically the same as the one for players who haven't been caught using steroids. They "might've been" on something. But it's damn hard to escape the scrutiny when you're sitting on a failed drug test, a suspension from MLB, and a large sect that wants your name as far away from the Hall of Fame as possible.
 
I'd really hope that Jeter would be smarter than that given having first had experience with seeing what AROD went through etc. But who knows in this day and age.
 
Beltre has a shot for a 4HR night. He has 3 HR through 5 innings. I highly doubt the O's throw him anything he can hit though seeing as Josh did it to them earlier in the year.
 
[quote name='Jodou']Lol, that dude is garbage and doesn't deserve the ring he's got.[/QUOTE]

Boston and 89 other teams would drool to get him on the team.

I think he gets somewhere bteween Kubel/Werth money. This year's OF market is very weak with Melky's fallout, 5/75 is very possible. My money is on Red Sox, they need an OF and may have a filter like effect on the club house.
 
There was a lot of complaining among the Rangers community when they decided to ship away Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter for Koji Uehara two years ago, mostly because Rangers fans loved Hunter so much for some reason. Tonight is why we traded Hunter away. He just doesn't have the stuff and is super prone to give up the longball.
 
[quote name='GhostShark']There was a lot of complaining among the Rangers community when they decided to ship away Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter for Koji Uehara two years ago, mostly because Rangers fans loved Hunter so much for some reason. Tonight is why we traded Hunter away. He just doesn't have the stuff and is super prone to give up the longball.[/QUOTE]

Tommy went 13-4 the year in 2010 and people thought he would build on that. Koji came over and carried a gas can out to the mound every time he pitched. Texas didn't get the pitcher they thought they were getting, which is why people were angry.
 
[quote name='GhostShark']There was a lot of complaining among the Rangers community when they decided to ship away Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter for Koji Uehara two years ago, mostly because Rangers fans loved Hunter so much for some reason. Tonight is why we traded Hunter away. He just doesn't have the stuff and is super prone to give up the longball.[/QUOTE]

IIRC Uehara performed great in Texas until this year. At the time the trade made a ton of sense, Davis was a failed prospect and Hunter had minimal value.
 
[quote name='HornyPony']IIRC Uehara performed great in Texas until this year. At the time the trade made a ton of sense, Davis was a failed prospect and Hunter had minimal value.[/QUOTE]


He has been better this year, but last year he was beyond fucking terrible in Texas. Beyond terrible, as in one of the worst relievers I have ever seen. The amount of bombs he gave up were just ridiculous. There is a reason he didn't end up on the WS roster.
 
I always get entertained when fans and journalists will worship the players from the amphetamines era but when it came to the steroid era, they rage pretty hard and pretend amphetamines either didn't exist and claim to be completely ignorant about it.

Also, yay for the sweep of the Dodgers and RIP Melky, sounds like Colon ate him and got busted for it.
 
At least the Braves got one game from the Nats. Medlen has been great since entering the starting rotation. 5-1 with a 1.86 ERA on the year currently.

Sheets has struggled some lately, he may end up as the odd man out when the Braves go back to a 5 man rotation in September.
 
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