80gb $399.99 PS3 Now Available at BBy
- Thread starter J7.
- Start date
[quote name='turls']ok, well technically you "got" me.
1) Nintendo said they would provide anybody with a GameCube that needed one with a component output[/quote]
First I've ever heard of this. My DOL-101 certainly did not come with any literature stating this. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if I asked Nintendo for a digital output GC I'd be summarily dismissed.
Consider what you want, you cant argue the fact that the Game Boy Micro is designed to play Game Boy Advance games and GBA games only. Thus it is indeed the 3rd incarnation of the GBA. That the 2nd incarnation was still available is irrelavent.
And Sony's position is apparently that BC is a "niche limitation". Sure, we can argue size, but to the vast majority of consumers, neither PS3 BC nor PS2 HDD is a big concern. So to some FF11 players, the PS2 HDD is a big deal. Who are you to call them any more "niche" than those who want BC in PS3s?
And while the system didnt come with the HDD, the game sure did. If one was interested in playing FF11 after the slim came out, they just got a big
you from Sony. Sure, it might have been a small group, but I'm sure those in that group cared about as much as some here in defense of BC.
Anyway, all this is moot. You asked for an example, I provided. Not really much else to see here
1) Nintendo said they would provide anybody with a GameCube that needed one with a component output[/quote]
First I've ever heard of this. My DOL-101 certainly did not come with any literature stating this. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if I asked Nintendo for a digital output GC I'd be summarily dismissed.
Consider what you want, you cant argue the fact that the Game Boy Micro is designed to play Game Boy Advance games and GBA games only. Thus it is indeed the 3rd incarnation of the GBA. That the 2nd incarnation was still available is irrelavent.
And Sony's position is apparently that BC is a "niche limitation". Sure, we can argue size, but to the vast majority of consumers, neither PS3 BC nor PS2 HDD is a big concern. So to some FF11 players, the PS2 HDD is a big deal. Who are you to call them any more "niche" than those who want BC in PS3s?
And while the system didnt come with the HDD, the game sure did. If one was interested in playing FF11 after the slim came out, they just got a big
you from Sony. Sure, it might have been a small group, but I'm sure those in that group cared about as much as some here in defense of BC.Anyway, all this is moot. You asked for an example, I provided. Not really much else to see here
bigdaddybruce44
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
- 26 (100%)
It's not irrelevant at all. The whole point is that people want features that are available in older units. If the GBA SP was still available, which it was, then the people that wanted those features could still get them. Because the older model PS3 systems are not available, people are stuck with either buying the system that doesn't have the feature they want or not getting a PS3...or shelling out another $130 for a PS2, which I'm sure has had some small effect on Sony's decision here.
No one is debating the passion different groups had. They are debating the size of the groups. If one person feels extremely passionate about something, but a thousand people feel passionately about something, the group with a thousand people are going to carry more weight, no matter how passionate that one other guy is. Were their people disappointed by the lack of HD support in the slim PS2? Yeah, sure. That's obvious. But the HD was only needed for one game, supported by a few others, and had a handful of perks. PS2 BC, on the other hand, offers one the ability to delve into the vast library of the PS2. It doesn't take a lot to realize that PS3 BC would be a concern to more people than HD support was in the PS2.
[quote name='hostyl1']First I've ever heard of this. My DOL-101 certainly did not come with any literature stating this. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if I asked Nintendo for a digital output GC I'd be summarily dismissed.[/quote]
Of course it didn't come with literature explaining that, and if you called them right now they may tell you to buy a Wii (which I understand will not work with a GameBoy player, yada, yada). But its a fact. Nintendo actually understands customer service as you are probably aware.
Of course it didn't come with literature explaining that, and if you called them right now they may tell you to buy a Wii (which I understand will not work with a GameBoy player, yada, yada). But its a fact. Nintendo actually understands customer service as you are probably aware.
My point is, the features *were* available and people were buying the system, even after the "fire sale" clearance of the 60GBs if somebody was *really* interested in those features, then they would have purchased as Guy Legend above said they did.
As to the "size of the groups" both Sony in the case of PS3 BC and Ninty in the case of digital out GCs decided that the groups that would be "mad" were small enough that it doesnt matter. It appears the CAG has a disproportionate number of those "mad", but amoung the general populous, the 40GBs sold. Which I'm sure led Sony to believe that the loss of BC is no big deal.
Seriously, what percentage of the video game playing audience do you think is concerned with this loss of BC? Are we talking half (I dont think so)? 30%? 10%? 5%? How many people are really basing their decision on getting a PS3 on if it can play PS2 games? Sure, there are some people to whom that is important, but I'd like to know how significant a number of people do you think that is?
I will submitt that number of people concerned with component out on the GC was statistically insignificant, but I'd contend that the number of people concerned with PS3 BC is equally statiscally insignificant. I dont base that on numbers pulled outta my ass, but rather based on Sony's decision. If Sony believed that including BC would significantly boost sales, there should be no doubt that they would include it....unless they are run by idiots that dont want to make money. But it is apparent that they believe the number of people that are pissed off about no BC is completely offset by those who will be attracted by the lower cost. Much like Nintendo and the 001 to 101 Gamecubes.
Now do you see why the comparison is valid?
As to the "size of the groups" both Sony in the case of PS3 BC and Ninty in the case of digital out GCs decided that the groups that would be "mad" were small enough that it doesnt matter. It appears the CAG has a disproportionate number of those "mad", but amoung the general populous, the 40GBs sold. Which I'm sure led Sony to believe that the loss of BC is no big deal.
Seriously, what percentage of the video game playing audience do you think is concerned with this loss of BC? Are we talking half (I dont think so)? 30%? 10%? 5%? How many people are really basing their decision on getting a PS3 on if it can play PS2 games? Sure, there are some people to whom that is important, but I'd like to know how significant a number of people do you think that is?
I will submitt that number of people concerned with component out on the GC was statistically insignificant, but I'd contend that the number of people concerned with PS3 BC is equally statiscally insignificant. I dont base that on numbers pulled outta my ass, but rather based on Sony's decision. If Sony believed that including BC would significantly boost sales, there should be no doubt that they would include it....unless they are run by idiots that dont want to make money. But it is apparent that they believe the number of people that are pissed off about no BC is completely offset by those who will be attracted by the lower cost. Much like Nintendo and the 001 to 101 Gamecubes.
Now do you see why the comparison is valid?
bigdaddybruce44
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
- 26 (100%)
Sony's decision is far more a financial one than it is something based on any kind of market survey about BC. One, they are trying to reduce the production cost of the PS3, which is already losing them a lot of money. Two, they are still marketing the PS2 as a viable gaming platform and BC in the PS3 makes moving new PS2 units a bit more difficult.
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Sony's decision is far more a financial one than it is something based on any kind of market survey about BC. [/quote]
You say this as if the two are mutally exclusive. *Because* BC is such a relatively under-used feature by the vast majority of PS3 buyers/prospective buyers, it is something that is easily cut. They added Wi-Fi and larger HDDs which, while more expensive, are features they believe prospective buyers will appreciate.
I dont see why that is so hard to grasp. (insert shrugging winky)
You say this as if the two are mutally exclusive. *Because* BC is such a relatively under-used feature by the vast majority of PS3 buyers/prospective buyers, it is something that is easily cut. They added Wi-Fi and larger HDDs which, while more expensive, are features they believe prospective buyers will appreciate.
I dont see why that is so hard to grasp. (insert shrugging winky)
bigdaddybruce44
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
- 26 (100%)
No where did I say or suggest that they are mutually exclusive. You can't simply say something to make your argument look better. I clearly said it is far more financial. It is. Obviously, Sony looked at the market and decided that it is something they could afford to cut. But they wouldn't have bothered cutting it if it wasn't going to make them money.
And as I also clearly said, it is more than just cutting the cost of the PS3. It's about making the PS2 a more attractive purchase. It's a little easier to push the $130 PS2 when the $400 PS3 doesn't give you any access to the PS2's library.
Oddly enough, I don't see why what everyone else is saying is so hard for you to grasp.
And as I also clearly said, it is more than just cutting the cost of the PS3. It's about making the PS2 a more attractive purchase. It's a little easier to push the $130 PS2 when the $400 PS3 doesn't give you any access to the PS2's library.
Oddly enough, I don't see why what everyone else is saying is so hard for you to grasp.
No, the reason *BC* was cut was because BC was not important. I will agree that it was a financial move. They needed to drop the price of the system. But the reason that they *chose* dropping BC and the card readers was that they determined that their audience didnt need or want to pay for those features in the aggregate. If they had figured that cuttig BC would lose them sales, then BC would stay in.
What I dont agree with is that this is to better position the PS2. The PS2 was selling fine without any adjustment to the PS3 because, quite frankly, they target different audiences. The BC containing PS3 was just far too expensive for the gamer who wanted to play PS2 games so they just continued to buy PS2. Coincidently, the BC PS3 was too expensive for gamers that wanted to play PS3 games. The number of gamers who want a machine to play PS2 and PS3 games is relatively small. This is evidenced by the fact that the 40GB PS3 sells well. If BC were so important, people just would not buy PS3s.
Clearly, BC is something that the mass market can live without.
What I dont agree with is that this is to better position the PS2. The PS2 was selling fine without any adjustment to the PS3 because, quite frankly, they target different audiences. The BC containing PS3 was just far too expensive for the gamer who wanted to play PS2 games so they just continued to buy PS2. Coincidently, the BC PS3 was too expensive for gamers that wanted to play PS3 games. The number of gamers who want a machine to play PS2 and PS3 games is relatively small. This is evidenced by the fact that the 40GB PS3 sells well. If BC were so important, people just would not buy PS3s.
Clearly, BC is something that the mass market can live without.
you can say that Hostyl1, but that's been the back-breaker for a lot of us on the fence who started looking after blue-ray won, and meanwhile happy with an xbox360
hardware ps2 b/c, then just software, then just mostly not at all/not on the new bundles, means they're missing out on a group who are looking for excuses to adopt the ps3 once blueray won and are curious about HOME - it doesn't help that's still not out either, they finally got the dualshock back, etc.
I always like users posting like they're marketing majors and know it all, because it's their perspective. I couldn't disagree with you more, I have a big PS2 library and getting it hooked up to HD, wireless controllers, and now back to dualshock would have given my wife and I an immediate library while easing into the blueray and PS3 library. Just seems they've been late and convoluted with so many things, and now that the format war is won, dualshock is back, and HOME is close (??) they take away what might attract *ps2 but own xbox360/gold live* users.
Instead I might eventually buy a new PS2 (mines old/big/cd no longer works), try to find a pair of good wireless controllers and HD cable on the cheap, and write the PS3 off. Since apparently I'm in the market they've written off, it only seems fair, eh?
edit - or more likely just skip PS2 on the HD all together.
A lot of people upgraded with the new wave, big HD TVs and a need for wireless - sit back, get wife approval
It certainly helped my xbox360 adoption and I still mix in some original xbox
And now that Sony is finally catching up with more reasons to look at them, they're taking that hook away
Had PS3 replacements for a lot of the varied and fun PS2 games, co-op/multi... but they really don't.
More than the Xbox360, b/c for PS2 was a nice hook and something I expected would bring me over at the right time.
Guess not. You suggest I'm not mass market, but I've seen a lot of similiar grumbling and wonder how big it in fact, is.
hardware ps2 b/c, then just software, then just mostly not at all/not on the new bundles, means they're missing out on a group who are looking for excuses to adopt the ps3 once blueray won and are curious about HOME - it doesn't help that's still not out either, they finally got the dualshock back, etc.
I always like users posting like they're marketing majors and know it all, because it's their perspective. I couldn't disagree with you more, I have a big PS2 library and getting it hooked up to HD, wireless controllers, and now back to dualshock would have given my wife and I an immediate library while easing into the blueray and PS3 library. Just seems they've been late and convoluted with so many things, and now that the format war is won, dualshock is back, and HOME is close (??) they take away what might attract *ps2 but own xbox360/gold live* users.
Instead I might eventually buy a new PS2 (mines old/big/cd no longer works), try to find a pair of good wireless controllers and HD cable on the cheap, and write the PS3 off. Since apparently I'm in the market they've written off, it only seems fair, eh?
edit - or more likely just skip PS2 on the HD all together.
A lot of people upgraded with the new wave, big HD TVs and a need for wireless - sit back, get wife approval
It certainly helped my xbox360 adoption and I still mix in some original xbox
And now that Sony is finally catching up with more reasons to look at them, they're taking that hook away
Had PS3 replacements for a lot of the varied and fun PS2 games, co-op/multi... but they really don't.
More than the Xbox360, b/c for PS2 was a nice hook and something I expected would bring me over at the right time.
Guess not. You suggest I'm not mass market, but I've seen a lot of similiar grumbling and wonder how big it in fact, is.
leesiulung
CAGiversary!
I think we should have a poll somwhere to see what the percentage of people think BC is important. Me think the decision to remove the PS3 BC was a desperate move to cut cost that Sony just creatively responded by saying low demand.
Personally, if it weren't for the PS3 MGS4 LE console, I would not buy a PS3 at this time due to the lack of BC. For instance, I want to go back and play the older MGS games and can't since I currently do not own a PS2, not to mention I don't have space on my entertainment shelf or the number of inputs on my TV. Re-plugging in devices constantly isn't good for the hardware.....
I don't care if somebody has done it in the past, but judging from the complaints (and the fact that Costco had to clearly display the lack of BC in the 40GB model) I think it is a significant portion of users that are unhappy.
edit: I wanted also to add that the 80GB PS3 has Dualshock 3, something the 40GB lacked and had the six axis instead.
Personally, if it weren't for the PS3 MGS4 LE console, I would not buy a PS3 at this time due to the lack of BC. For instance, I want to go back and play the older MGS games and can't since I currently do not own a PS2, not to mention I don't have space on my entertainment shelf or the number of inputs on my TV. Re-plugging in devices constantly isn't good for the hardware.....
I don't care if somebody has done it in the past, but judging from the complaints (and the fact that Costco had to clearly display the lack of BC in the 40GB model) I think it is a significant portion of users that are unhappy.
edit: I wanted also to add that the 80GB PS3 has Dualshock 3, something the 40GB lacked and had the six axis instead.
theflicker
CAGiversary!
[quote name='CKaz']Instead I might eventually buy a new PS2 (mines old/big/cd no longer works), try to find a pair of good wireless controllers and HD cable on the cheap, and write the PS3 off. Since apparently I'm in the market they've written off, it only seems fair, eh?
Guess not. You suggest I'm not mass market, but I've seen a lot of similiar grumbling and wonder how big it in fact, is.[/QUOTE]
I've never owned a PS2 and just grabbed a slew of games with the current EB/GS coupon. If BC were readily available, I would pick up a PS3 right now. PS3 w/o BC is a great deal for a BR player, but one that I can wait on. As it is, seeing as I don't own an HDTV, I'm now in the market for a PS2 and will grab a PS3 at some distant point down the line.
Heck, if I waited ~10 years to pick up a PS2, I guess I can go another 10 with my fingers crossed for a BC PS3.
Guess not. You suggest I'm not mass market, but I've seen a lot of similiar grumbling and wonder how big it in fact, is.[/QUOTE]
I've never owned a PS2 and just grabbed a slew of games with the current EB/GS coupon. If BC were readily available, I would pick up a PS3 right now. PS3 w/o BC is a great deal for a BR player, but one that I can wait on. As it is, seeing as I don't own an HDTV, I'm now in the market for a PS2 and will grab a PS3 at some distant point down the line.
Heck, if I waited ~10 years to pick up a PS2, I guess I can go another 10 with my fingers crossed for a BC PS3.
Sideswiper
CAGiversary!
Are we talking half (I dont think so)?
There are a LOT of people with PS2. There are a FEW people with PS3. Who cares whether or not current PS3 owners use BC? The real trick is to get people who have PS2 systems to purchase a PS3. I think BC really matters to at least half of current PS2 owners who don't own a PS3. But this is hardly science, we don't have actual numbers.
Without a killer app or BC, we aren't buying a fancy Blu-Ray player. It can wait.
There are a LOT of people with PS2. There are a FEW people with PS3. Who cares whether or not current PS3 owners use BC? The real trick is to get people who have PS2 systems to purchase a PS3. I think BC really matters to at least half of current PS2 owners who don't own a PS3. But this is hardly science, we don't have actual numbers.
Without a killer app or BC, we aren't buying a fancy Blu-Ray player. It can wait.
bigdaddybruce44
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
- 26 (100%)
Indeed. What's really funny about discussions like this...and the dreaded 360/RRoD discussions...is that none of us have any hard evidence, at all. The problem is, some people like to act as if their anecdotal evidence means something, while everyone else's is useless. Just take this topic, for example. It seems like half the posters care about BC...and the other half doesn't. Sure, it's meaningless sample size, but someone out there obviously cares about BC. After all, Sony wouldn't have bothered adding it in the first place...with the much more expensive full hardware support in the 20GB and 60GB models...if they didn't find it to be a draw.
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']You do realize there are plenty of good reasons why someone doesn't want to have to own a PS2 and PS3, right? Everyone isn't just "lazy," as you put it. Some people have a PS2 that broke down. That's been known to happen, believe it or not. Some people don't want the clutter. Some people never owned a PS2, but still want the ability to delve into that back catalog. And yes, after the updates, most PS2 games I have played look better on the PS3, so that's another reason why folks want a system that is BC.
One of the main reasons I got my PS3 was because GameStop was giving $100 credit when you traded in any PS2 system, an extra controller, and memory card. I had an old model, so it was pretty good deal to me. If the system did not have BC, I probably wouldn't have bothered getting a PS3.
And I really don't think people are concerned with what "we need to do for Sony." They are more concerned with what Sony has to do to get us to want to buy into their product.[/quote]
Everyone is not just lazy, but the majority are. And the far majority that had a PS2 break down, had it repaired or bought another one, especially those who would care about BC. Not wanting the clutter is a lamish excuse, which is linked to laziness. People can put a little effort into their entertainment centers, i.e. how they keep their appliances and such. And if that's too much trouble they can always keep the PS2 out of that area until they go to use it again. Yes, people are not concerned with what we need to do for Sony, but it's in your best interest to do that ultimately.
One of the main reasons I got my PS3 was because GameStop was giving $100 credit when you traded in any PS2 system, an extra controller, and memory card. I had an old model, so it was pretty good deal to me. If the system did not have BC, I probably wouldn't have bothered getting a PS3.
And I really don't think people are concerned with what "we need to do for Sony." They are more concerned with what Sony has to do to get us to want to buy into their product.[/quote]
Everyone is not just lazy, but the majority are. And the far majority that had a PS2 break down, had it repaired or bought another one, especially those who would care about BC. Not wanting the clutter is a lamish excuse, which is linked to laziness. People can put a little effort into their entertainment centers, i.e. how they keep their appliances and such. And if that's too much trouble they can always keep the PS2 out of that area until they go to use it again. Yes, people are not concerned with what we need to do for Sony, but it's in your best interest to do that ultimately.
[quote name='turls']This is laughable.
Did they survey CAG?
Bulloney. They are going to keep the PS3 for 10 years right? And the price of the components has already dropped significantly, and will continue to drop.
What does laziness have to do with it? I don't have the inputs or space to do it. I've got a 360, PS2, Xbox, and Wii plus a ton of other set-top stuff.[/quote]
MS did the survey, and I believe they did it with early owners of the 360, which are the more hardcore gamers and CAG is also full of more hardcore gamers so they did survey a population similar to CAG.
How is it "bulloney" or baloney right... that Sony did not lose a ton of money on the PS3??? They lost 3.2 Billion dollars on the hardware. They attempted to offer BC, but they cannot afford it. Stringer (President) recently said they would not make that money back in his lifetime!
You do not have the inputs because they are being used by another system. But guess what? You can unplug that other system from the TV and plug the PS2 into the TV!!! You can even have the PS2 all setup except not have the ends of the cord plugged into the TV until you want to use it! Why is this so hard to do? It's called laziness!
Did they survey CAG?
Bulloney. They are going to keep the PS3 for 10 years right? And the price of the components has already dropped significantly, and will continue to drop.
What does laziness have to do with it? I don't have the inputs or space to do it. I've got a 360, PS2, Xbox, and Wii plus a ton of other set-top stuff.[/quote]
MS did the survey, and I believe they did it with early owners of the 360, which are the more hardcore gamers and CAG is also full of more hardcore gamers so they did survey a population similar to CAG.
How is it "bulloney" or baloney right... that Sony did not lose a ton of money on the PS3??? They lost 3.2 Billion dollars on the hardware. They attempted to offer BC, but they cannot afford it. Stringer (President) recently said they would not make that money back in his lifetime!
You do not have the inputs because they are being used by another system. But guess what? You can unplug that other system from the TV and plug the PS2 into the TV!!! You can even have the PS2 all setup except not have the ends of the cord plugged into the TV until you want to use it! Why is this so hard to do? It's called laziness!
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='Sideswiper']
J7., So you're sick of hearing that we want cheap PS3 consoles with BC? Why am I supposed to care? Who are you anyways, Sony's accountant?[/quote]
I'm sick of people on the internet complaining about BC, when the far majority of them would barely ever use it at all. When Sony did offer it but cannot anymore because they lost 3.2 billion dollars and still are losing money on the hardware, and people still expect it, so that Sony could lose another 500 million-1 billion dollars... When people could just hold onto their PS2's they already own, and put a little effort into plugging in its cords when they want to use it... It's my opinion that I'm sick of hearing this ridiculousness, I did not say you had to care.
J7., So you're sick of hearing that we want cheap PS3 consoles with BC? Why am I supposed to care? Who are you anyways, Sony's accountant?[/quote]
I'm sick of people on the internet complaining about BC, when the far majority of them would barely ever use it at all. When Sony did offer it but cannot anymore because they lost 3.2 billion dollars and still are losing money on the hardware, and people still expect it, so that Sony could lose another 500 million-1 billion dollars... When people could just hold onto their PS2's they already own, and put a little effort into plugging in its cords when they want to use it... It's my opinion that I'm sick of hearing this ridiculousness, I did not say you had to care.
bread's done