Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

They were charged with unlawful entry (entering a Congressional office and refusing to leave when told to do so) and/or disorderly conduct (yelling in the hallway outside an office) at Room 235 in the Cannon House Office Building.
Click to expand...

look at that. 0 arrests for violent crimes.

Of course, I'm sure I'll get accused of moving the goal posts, in spite of the fact that I very clearly asked for an example of Tea Party protesters being arrested for assault during a protest.

derp, indeed.
 
well. i can still see the indention from where they used to be, so yes.

of course one has to consider whether or not there is enforcement prior to everything in arizona versus the tea parties, which fox news and company tell us are peaceful groups of millions of people, and thus, the law aint needed. because let's go ahead and equate eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverythiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing, and unless absolutely congruent in every single way, no one is as dastardly as the WATER BATTLE BRIGADE
 
Sarah Palin reiterated that racial profiling is banned in this bill. But then she qq's when she remembers she said this:

“I say profiling in the context of doing whatever we can to save innocent American lives, I’m all for it then,”

We should profile, it will protect...hang on... Brewer says the law "protects every Arizona citizen." Yeah. Let's do it.
 
What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona.

I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself (sic) and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona.

I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have.

Please refer to:
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=1070&image.x=6&image.y=7

and
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html
and
http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001306----000-.html

The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration.

There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue.

The requirements for proof are rather lenient:
a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license;
b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or
c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance.

Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...
 
Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works?

What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID?

I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.
 
Writing a law is one thing. Enforcing it is another. Gov. Brewer admitted she doesn't know what an illegal immigrant looks like. I guess cops do? Awesome, let's keep signing laws that are impossible to enforce.

I agree with BigT to some extent, this is overblown. A fucking boycott of Arizona? Are you kidding me?

But I think although the law may be written in a way to save political (brown) face, enforcing the law is going to be something else entirely. I think that's where most of the anger is coming from. How are they supposed to determine reasonable suspicion without stereotyping? I'd love to meet the cop that can do that and have 0 false positives.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works?

What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID?

I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.[/QUOTE]
Driving While Black is the perfect analogy for this.
 
[quote name='BigT']Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have.

Please refer to:
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=1070&image.x=6&image.y=7

and
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html
and
http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001306----000-.html

The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration.

There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue.

The requirements for proof are rather lenient:
a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license;
b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or
c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance.

Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...[/QUOTE]

I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.[/QUOTE]

What amuses me, so many people are saying that you can't trust them not to abuse their power.

As if there's something about government employees abusing their power... I mean, that never happens. Let's give them some more power. Should be fun when all the doctors are government employees. Wait until you're "Sick While Black".
 
[quote name='docvinh']I guess the biggest issue is that we're going to have to trust that police officers will not find a way to abuse this law.[/QUOTE]

watch
 
[quote name='depascal22']What a mess. My wife was all for this bill until I told her that myself and our daughter would probably be stopped for ze papers if we ever visited Arizona.

I'm actually looking forward to a confrontation with the police on the matter if I should ever drive through the state or visit for business.[/QUOTE]


[quote name='depascal22']Suspicion of a crime..... I suspect you have drugs because you're Mexican. Oops. Because you're carrying a backpack. Now how about we see them papers, boy. See how that works?

What about the dude that doesn't carry his ID when he grabs a gallon of milk at the corner store? Let's say cops roll by and think he's a perfect match for an APB. On top of it, the cops suspect he's an illegal alien. Do you think the cops are going to let him run and grab his ID?

I've been pulled over for Driving While Black. Don't give me this bullshit about the cops just going by the letter of any law.[/QUOTE]

First of all, what you just described already happens in Arizona and has always happened in Arizona. Nothing will change in that regard.

Last I checked there are not a ton of black people streaming across the border in Az, so I don't think you should be too worried about asking for proof of being here legally.
 
[quote name='BigT']Wow. I read this whole thread and there is a ton of misinformation. Have any of you even read the bill? I have.

Please refer to:
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=1070&image.x=6&image.y=7

and
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1304.html
and
http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/usc_sec_08_00001306----000-.html

The law essentially provides provisions for local Arizona officials to help with the enforcement of pre-exisiting federal law. Read 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) and 1306(a). If you are a resident alien in the US above age 18, you are required by federal law to carry proof of Alien Registration.

There is no provision that allows police to just ask someone to show them papers at random... this can only occur when the police stops you for a legitimate reason (traffic violation, suspcion of a crime, or if you are arrested). Then, if they suspect that you may be illegal, they can further look into the issue.

The requirements for proof are rather lenient:
a) a valid Arizona driver license or nonoperating identification license;
b) a valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification; or
c) a valid U.S. federal, state or local government issued identification if the entity requires proof of legal presence in the U.S. before issuance.

Personally, I find the DMCA and patriot act more objectionable. This law is really not as wide reaching as it has been represented. If you disagree, please show me where I'm wrong...[/QUOTE]

1070 (the AZ law) uses the "reasonable suspicion" standard for stopping someone.

Go revisit section 13-1509 of sb1070:

42 A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF
43 TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH:
44 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE.
45 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).
Click to expand...

Hey, being in the states illegally is a crime - therefore, a person can be detained based on reasonable suspicion of being here illegally.
 
I find it highly hilarious they had Raul Grizalva on the news talking about this fiasco. Also... If this were the case everyone except for maybe Indians would be "immigrants" to this place we call "America"...
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']I find it highly hilarious they had Raul Grizalva on the news talking about this fiasco. Also... If this were the case everyone except for maybe Indians would be "immigrants" to this place we call "America"...[/QUOTE]

Sure, but the only immigrants that "count" are the white ones that are REAL AMERICANS.;)
 
We really need to just do one of the following:

A) Repeal all immigration laws and abolish the INS. Put neon signs on the border that say "Abierto para todos!"

or

B) Start enforcing our existing laws.


Why is it more complicated than that? Why do so many people think we can, and should, do something in-between?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']We really need to just do one of the following:

A) Repeal all immigration laws and abolish the INS. Put neon signs on the border that say "Abierto para todos!"

or

B) Start enforcing our existing laws.


Why is it more complicated than that? Why do so many people think we can, and should, do something in-between?[/QUOTE]

You're not going far enough for Plan A covers more than just policing it. Even if we open it up, other areas of government will be hit harder.

Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?
 
[quote name='xycury']
Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?[/QUOTE]

That's easy. Look at the news headlines. We don't have the political will to threaten 20+ million potential voters.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why can't Mexicans be more like Canadians?[/QUOTE]
What are you talking aboot, neither can speak english. Ask a Canadian what time it is and your assaulted with "Je ne comprends pas ce que vous dites".
 
[quote name='xycury']
Plan B is what we should be doing, but no one is doing it. Why?[/QUOTE]

Like it or not, answer is simple: tons of industries rely on the cheap labor.

I'm willing to bet the people in power in Arizona have had tons of interactions with people who could be deported at the drop of the hat. Respectfully said, let's not mince words here - the day laborers (maids, construction, gardening, etc) are going to fall into this category.

A way to troll this law (if you're kind of a double edged sword bastard) would be to rat out this group from the bourgeois. Find who works for the governor, or the rich people, or whatever, and set your traps. Course, you're playing with the lives of hard working people, but at the same time, you're sending a message. Hence why I said it's a double edge here.

Point is, our country wants to throw up some nonsense about how we hate these illegal groups being around. But we absolutely are standing on their backs. Industries lose out on this labor, and I guarantee you they'll raise prices, having been cushy for the last few decades on their infinite access to those willing to work for lower pay.

So I don't know what the answer is. But let's not faf about here - enforcing these things is going to have a lot of aftershocks echoing around endlessly, and by the time Joe Teabagger finds out prices for certain services and products is jumping up, we'll have wasted billions in taxpayer money fending off something we can't win.

This is just another drug war, Iraq war, building your sand castle too close to the waves situation.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']First of all, what you just described already happens in Arizona and has always happened in Arizona. Nothing will change in that regard.

Last I checked there are not a ton of black people streaming across the border in Az, so I don't think you should be too worried about asking for proof of being here legally.[/QUOTE]

Last time I checked, most people assume I'm Puerto Rican or another Hispanic nationality. I can't tell you how many people come up to me and start speaking Spanish only to get frustrated because I'm not fluent.

Also, many black people of Hispanic descent are flowing across the border. Did you forget that the Spanish also held slaves in the Caribbean and Central America? Dark scary Spanish speaking people are coming across this border as we speak and if they're smart, they're making a run to the "urban" stores first.

So you're telling me that cops will automatically and correctly assume that I'm black and not Hispanic while I'm driving through the crappy state of Arizona?

As for you Uncle Bob, don't equate the institutional racism of police departments around this country with a new program by the government. With your logic, if I don't like one branch of local government, I must hate and distrust EVERY branch of local, state, and federal government. You make no sense, dude.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Last time I checked, most people assume I'm Puerto Rican or another Hispanic nationality. I can't tell you how many people come up to me and start speaking Spanish only to get frustrated because I'm not fluent.

Also, many black people of Hispanic descent are flowing across the border. Did you forget that the Spanish also held slaves in the Caribbean and Central America? Dark scary Spanish speaking people are coming across this border as we speak and if they're smart, they're making a run to the "urban" stores first.

So you're telling me that cops will automatically and correctly assume that I'm black and not Hispanic while I'm driving through the crappy state of Arizona?

As for you Uncle Bob, don't equate the institutional racism of police departments around this country with a new program by the government. With your logic, if I don't like one branch of local government, I must hate and distrust EVERY branch of local, state, and federal government. You make no sense, dude.[/QUOTE]
But who remembers Latin Mullatos in this day and age?
 
[quote name='cindersphere']But who remembers Latin Mullatos in this day and age?[/QUOTE]

Obviously, not anyone that seems to care so much about immigration.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']We really need to just do one of the following:

A) Repeal all immigration laws and abolish the INS. Put neon signs on the border that say "Abierto para todos!"

or

B) Start enforcing our existing laws.


Why is it more complicated than that? Why do so many people think we can, and should, do something in-between?[/QUOTE]
But official languages of Canada are French and English. Wait, you weren't thinking about the northern border.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']That's easy. Look at the news headlines. We don't have the political will to threaten 20+ million potential voters.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. If there's one thing I can agree with Glenn Beck on, it's that immigration reform is about which party can kowtow to Hispanic population to get their votes.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']But who remembers Latin Mullatos in this day and age?[/QUOTE]

Mariah Carey fans?

Irhari:

It isn't even so much the potential voter thing as what is going on in Arizona is pissing off a lot of Americans who are Hispanic but born and raised here, they have legitimate fears of being harassed if others state try what AZ has.
 
Agreed, and I don't even think it's the written law itself that's pissing people off, but the enforcement of that law, which will foster racial profiling.

Bush's push for immigration reform isn't that dissimilar from what a Democrat would propose, and it was defeated. But it would have created a ton of Hisp votes for Repubs if it had passed, thats for sure. Even if it passed through a Democrat controlled Congress. That's why I think it's more a political ploy than doing what's best for the country.

Admittedly, I don't know what's best for the country regarding immigration reform. Maybe the political ploy is what's best for the country. I dunno. Meh.
 
i guess according to brewer they're going to be looking for the white people jumping over the border to the us or the asian people they won't be looking for any hispanic folk
 
[quote name='Msut77']Mariah Carey fans?

Irhari:

It isn't even so much the potential voter thing as what is going on in Arizona is pissing off a lot of Americans who are Hispanic but born and raised here, they have legitimate fears of being harassed if others state try what AZ has.[/QUOTE]

Plus the fact that Arizona used to belong to Mexico means that some of those people been in the state for generations before it even became a part of US
 
I wonder if the police will also suspect the agricultural laborers of committing a crime or any other labor market where the majority workers are barely paid a minimum wage. Now that's the real crime, pay workers what they deserve. Maybe after saving enough they'll move back to Mexico. This law is bs, it targets those who the US (Arizona) feels it has no need for. Yet, where is the minimum wage reform? The one that will investigate and heavily punish suspected employers of hiring workers and breaking the minimum wage law.

It's also bs how some agricultural work is not required to have a minimum wage. I can't wait for the time when Latinos are the predominant people in the US. This country will be be New Mexico... wait that name is already taken. How about United States of Latinos?
 
[quote name='62t']Plus the fact that Arizona used to belong to Mexico means that some of those people been in the state for generations before it even became a part of US[/QUOTE]

yes.
 
Haha, didn't know about the refried bean swastikas (linked on the same site), that's good shit.

And that campaign ad is for real?
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']It begins!

http://guanabee.com/2010/04/american-truck-driver-illegal-alien-arizona-sb1070/

And slightly related, it looks like this douche from Alabama doesn't want Arizona to hog all the racism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ohsvJHkbY&feature=player_embedded[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to lie, I actually agree with English being the official language for the United States. However, I think people want it for other reasons (racism, learn our language or gtfo hrrrrrrr!). For some reason, people think that if English was the official language, they would no longer have to deal with Spanish ever again, which is untrue.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I'm not going to lie, I actually agree with English being the official language for the United States. However, I think people want it for other reasons (racism, learn our language or gtfo hrrrrrrr!). For some reason, people think that if English was the official language, they would no longer have to deal with Spanish ever again, which is untrue.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, this is the United States, and we should all speak the Queen's language.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I'm not going to lie, I actually agree with English being the official language for the United States. However, I think people want it for other reasons (racism, learn our language or gtfo hrrrrrrr!). For some reason, people think that if English was the official language, they would no longer have to deal with Spanish ever again, which is untrue.[/QUOTE]

So much for that 'melting pot.'
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1070 (the AZ law) uses the "reasonable suspicion" standard for stopping someone.

Go revisit section 13-1509 of sb1070:
[/QUOTE]
This just states that they should help enforcing what is already on the books as federal law.


Hey, being in the states illegally is a crime - therefore, a person can be detained based on reasonable suspicion of being here illegally.
Click to expand...
I disagree with your interpretation. By the letter of the law
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED.
Click to expand...
The police must have a reason for stopping you, first. Stopping a person to check their immigration status solely would be akin to a tautology. Furthermore, the law specifically prohibits this:
A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.
Click to expand...
Look, I am all for immigration. Hell, I'm an immigrant myself. I feel bad for the people of Mexico - their country is a corrupt mess and the elites in Mexico do little to help the poor. If you want to see people who really hate poor Mexicans, just go to Mexico and meet their elites and see how they treat their poor!

We cannot successfully mix unrestricted immigration with wide reaching social welfare programs... we have enough problems trying to support our own poor people and we'll go bankrupt by trying to support Mexico's poor people! A state should not be required to undertake such a burden. Thus, I agree with Arizona's right to pass such a law.
 
[quote name='IRHari']So much for that 'melting pot.'[/QUOTE]

Hey, being the child of first generation immigrants, I can understand how hard it is to adapt to a new language. However, my parents understood that to be able to get around in the United States, they would have to learn a new language, no matter how hard it was. They still spoke Vietnamese at home, so I grew up learning both languages. We still were able to keep our culture, and we all ended up being bilingual to boot. I'm not saying that people want this for the RIGHT reasons, but I don't think that it's that big of a deal that English be the official language. I think most countries have official languages, but they're still accepting of other languages. I dunno, just my opinion and experiences of course.
 
[quote name='BigT']If you want to see people who really hate poor Americans, just go to America and meet their elites and see how they treat their poor![/QUOTE]

Fixed for more accuracy.
 
[quote name='D_Icon']I wonder if the police will also suspect the agricultural laborers of committing a crime or any other labor market where the majority workers are barely paid a minimum wage. Now that's the real crime, pay workers what they deserve. Maybe after saving enough they'll move back to Mexico. This law is bs, it targets those who the US (Arizona) feels it has no need for. Yet, where is the minimum wage reform? The one that will investigate and heavily punish suspected employers of hiring workers and breaking the minimum wage law.

It's also bs how some agricultural work is not required to have a minimum wage. I can't wait for the time when Latinos are the predominant people in the US. This country will be be New Mexico... wait that name is already taken. How about United States of Latinos?[/QUOTE]

Your ideas are noble but misguided.

People coming from Mexico as laborers, in general, do not have many specific skills. Their biggest bargaining chip, is their willingness to work for a cheap wage. As you raise the minimum wage and enforce it more strictly, you weaken their bargaining chip and thus, instead of getting paid a low wage (that is still much higher than they would earn in Mexico), they may potentially lose their job... thus, I believe that your idea would actually hurt Mexican immigrants.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Fixed for more accuracy.[/QUOTE]

I take it you haven't been to many other countries... in the majority of the world, there is a much bigger divide between the high and low classes than in the US... go to India and see how untouchables are treated... go to Mexico and see how many social programs poor countryside farmers are eligible for
 
[quote name='BigT']This just states that they should help enforcing what is already on the books as federal law.


I disagree with your interpretation. By the letter of the law
The police must have a reason for stopping you, first. Stopping a person to check their immigration status solely would be akin to a tautology. Furthermore, the law specifically prohibits this:

Look, I am all for immigration. Hell, I'm an immigrant myself. I feel bad for the people of Mexico - their country is a corrupt mess and the elites in Mexico do little to help the poor. If you want to see people who really hate poor Mexicans, just go to Mexico and meet their elites and see how they treat their poor!

We cannot successfully mix unrestricted immigration with wide reaching social welfare programs... we have enough problems trying to support our own poor people and we'll go bankrupt by trying to support Mexico's poor people! A state should not be required to undertake such a burden. Thus, I agree with Arizona's right to pass such a law.[/QUOTE]

Our constitution also prohibits illegal searches and our laws prohibited illegal wire taps. You can see how well that has worked out in this country. Reason is what police use after they have you in handcuffs.
 
[quote name='BigT']I take it you haven't been to many other countries... in the majority of the world, there is a much bigger divide between the high and low classes than in the US... go to India and see how untouchables are treated... go to Mexico and see how many social programs poor countryside farmers are eligible for [/QUOTE]

Been to both India and Jamaica, thanks. But just because the disparity there is much larger doesn't mean that America is exempt from criticism.
 
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