heard this on the radio this morning. pretty funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFZ4dvZ-1mQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFZ4dvZ-1mQ&feature=player_embedded
Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill
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bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='Knoell']they are allowed to profile already, I think theres a better word for it that I cant think of right now, but they just cannot racially profile.[/QUOTE]
This is a concept that a lot people simply don't understand. How on earth do you think law enforcement catches a good number of criminals? By profiling. And guess what the profile for illegal immigrants in this country is. This isn't rocket science, folks.
The bottom line, the federal government has dragged its feet on this issue for years and years. I don't blame Arizona for finally stepping up and doing something about this problem. Someone had to do. At the very least, maybe, just maybe, this will finally force the federal government to do something...anything!
This is a concept that a lot people simply don't understand. How on earth do you think law enforcement catches a good number of criminals? By profiling. And guess what the profile for illegal immigrants in this country is. This isn't rocket science, folks.
The bottom line, the federal government has dragged its feet on this issue for years and years. I don't blame Arizona for finally stepping up and doing something about this problem. Someone had to do. At the very least, maybe, just maybe, this will finally force the federal government to do something...anything!
depascal22
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']This is a concept that a lot people simply don't understand. How on earth do you think law enforcement catches a good number of criminals? By profiling. And guess what the profile for illegal immigrants in this country is. This isn't rocket science, folks.[/QUOTE]
Or do you think they only catch criminals of a certain type? I'm pretty sure there are many white people out there dealing drugs and committing crimes but why are blacks over-represented in prisons?
It goes beyond simple police work and goes into a systematic preference for busting black and brown people. This law only bolsters this position for local and state cops.
Or do you think they only catch criminals of a certain type? I'm pretty sure there are many white people out there dealing drugs and committing crimes but why are blacks over-represented in prisons?
It goes beyond simple police work and goes into a systematic preference for busting black and brown people. This law only bolsters this position for local and state cops.
bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='depascal22']Or do you think they only catch criminals of a certain type? I'm pretty sure there are many white people out there dealing drugs and committing crimes but why are blacks over-represented in prisons?
It goes beyond simple police work and goes into a systematic preference for busting black and brown people. This law only bolsters this position for local and state cops.[/QUOTE]
Here's a good question for people like you. If you honestly believe that, why in the world do you live here? If you believe the system is racist and so corrupt that this racism (and, you would assume, other prejudices) determine what happens, why are you here? Personally, if I thought some crazy nonsense like that, I'd get out. Fortunately, I'm not insane, but just saying, if I were, I'd be on the first plane out.
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...
It goes beyond simple police work and goes into a systematic preference for busting black and brown people. This law only bolsters this position for local and state cops.[/QUOTE]
Here's a good question for people like you. If you honestly believe that, why in the world do you live here? If you believe the system is racist and so corrupt that this racism (and, you would assume, other prejudices) determine what happens, why are you here? Personally, if I thought some crazy nonsense like that, I'd get out. Fortunately, I'm not insane, but just saying, if I were, I'd be on the first plane out.
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...
cindersphere
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Here's a good question for people like you. If you honestly believe that, why in the world do you live here? If you believe the system is racist and so corrupt that this racism (and, you would assume, other prejudices) determine what happens, why are you here? Personally, if I thought some crazy nonsense like that, I'd get out. Fortunately, I'm not insane, but just saying, if I were, I'd be on the first plane out.
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...[/QUOTE]
k Are you serious? God, I sincerely hope you are joking.
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...[/QUOTE]
k Are you serious? God, I sincerely hope you are joking.
Dr Mario Kart
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Getting out of the country is a lot harder than you might think. I mean, I guess you can just pack a suitcase, overstay your visa and live on the streets somewhere. Otherwise there is an arduous process just like there is here. The move is even more difficult for the poor classes of people that are primarily the ones afflicted.
Alternatively, you can feel reasonably good about most of the things in our country but want to fix some things. Afterward, we can proceed to return the comments about leaving the country to the people who used to make them.
Alternatively, you can feel reasonably good about most of the things in our country but want to fix some things. Afterward, we can proceed to return the comments about leaving the country to the people who used to make them.
depascal22
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I love the whole love or leave it attitude. Maybe you can give the Tea Party a little dose of that medicine.
bigdaddy, I doubt you've ever been pulled over for Driving While Black so I don't think you can possibly understand how messed up the cops are. So you're saying that minorities naturally commit so many crimes as to be the MAJORITY in prison. Hell, blacks make the majority of inmates. To you, this is a natural thought.....
As for leaving this country, I've done my research and I can't afford it. I'd rather live with the chance of getting
ed up by cops here instead of getting ed up by gangs (that prey on immigrants) in other countries.
Back on topic, I found this interesting link: http://mediamatters.org/research/201005050001
I wonder why Arizona was in such a hurry to get this law passed when their own sheriffs are claiming that "the border has never been more secure" and "crime on the border is at the same level it was at a decade ago." Did anyone hear anything about how the border was a warzone a decade ago? I used to cross the border once a week a decade ago and never felt like I was about to get messed with by the cartel. All of a sudden, the people of Arizona are fed up with the fed's inaction. You don't think the racist component came into play on this one? There's absolutely no evidence that crime is worse but you enact a sweeping immigration law that forces state and local cops to become immigration officials at the drop of a hat? Please.
bigdaddy, I doubt you've ever been pulled over for Driving While Black so I don't think you can possibly understand how messed up the cops are. So you're saying that minorities naturally commit so many crimes as to be the MAJORITY in prison. Hell, blacks make the majority of inmates. To you, this is a natural thought.....
As for leaving this country, I've done my research and I can't afford it. I'd rather live with the chance of getting
ed up by cops here instead of getting ed up by gangs (that prey on immigrants) in other countries.Back on topic, I found this interesting link: http://mediamatters.org/research/201005050001
I wonder why Arizona was in such a hurry to get this law passed when their own sheriffs are claiming that "the border has never been more secure" and "crime on the border is at the same level it was at a decade ago." Did anyone hear anything about how the border was a warzone a decade ago? I used to cross the border once a week a decade ago and never felt like I was about to get messed with by the cartel. All of a sudden, the people of Arizona are fed up with the fed's inaction. You don't think the racist component came into play on this one? There's absolutely no evidence that crime is worse but you enact a sweeping immigration law that forces state and local cops to become immigration officials at the drop of a hat? Please.
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Here's a good question for people like you. If you honestly believe that, why in the world do you live here? If you believe the system is racist and so corrupt that this racism (and, you would assume, other prejudices) determine what happens, why are you here? Personally, if I thought some crazy nonsense like that, I'd get out. Fortunately, I'm not insane, but just saying, if I were, I'd be on the first plane out.
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...[/QUOTE]
I know this is a loony concept, but maybe "brown" people are "over-represented" in prisons, because...they commit a shit load of crime? I know, I know. Simply impossible. It's just a bunch of racists that threw them in there and ignore white crime. Yeah...[/QUOTE]
I love how you are criticizing him, and practically saying that the reason blacks have a higher ratio to whites in prison is because everyone is racist to them?
Again, you are all speaking from your hearts and not your heads. Here are some statistics. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/64
According to the 2000 Census Whites make up 69.1% of the US population. Blacks make up 12.5% of the US population. Hispanics make up 12.5% of the US population. In 2007, the prison population is made up of 2,308,300 million people. Blacks make up 35.4% of that population. Whites make up 32.9% and hispanics make up 17.9% of the prison population.
So how is it that 12.5% of the US population make up 35.4% percent of the prison population? Of course this does not mean all blacks commit crime, nor does it mean that whites are incapable of commiting crime. The statistics do show however that there must be a reason that this is true. I do not believe that we have a margin of error of racism in 1 in 2.78 (prison population) to a 1 in 64 (U.S. population). There must be another reason besides racism that this is occuring, you don't see hispanic numbers up there nearly as high as blacks. Remember these are in jail statistics so they were allegedly arrested, tried, and sentanced.
It is a touchy subject to be sure because anytime you talk about it, the racist witchhunt begins, but the statistics prove it so maybe we should talk about why it is happening.
Again, you are all speaking from your hearts and not your heads. Here are some statistics. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/64
According to the 2000 Census Whites make up 69.1% of the US population. Blacks make up 12.5% of the US population. Hispanics make up 12.5% of the US population. In 2007, the prison population is made up of 2,308,300 million people. Blacks make up 35.4% of that population. Whites make up 32.9% and hispanics make up 17.9% of the prison population.
So how is it that 12.5% of the US population make up 35.4% percent of the prison population? Of course this does not mean all blacks commit crime, nor does it mean that whites are incapable of commiting crime. The statistics do show however that there must be a reason that this is true. I do not believe that we have a margin of error of racism in 1 in 2.78 (prison population) to a 1 in 64 (U.S. population). There must be another reason besides racism that this is occuring, you don't see hispanic numbers up there nearly as high as blacks. Remember these are in jail statistics so they were allegedly arrested, tried, and sentanced.
It is a touchy subject to be sure because anytime you talk about it, the racist witchhunt begins, but the statistics prove it so maybe we should talk about why it is happening.
mykevermin
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except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population.
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion.
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion.
[quote name='mykevermin']except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population.
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Did even you look at the website?
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Did even you look at the website?
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).
[quote name='SpazX']Well ya know knoell, Atheists are underrepresented in the prison population. It's because being religious makes you more likely to commit crimes, I'm sure of it.
And knoell's gonna tell myke about crime stats.[/QUOTE]
You aren't going to provide statistics that show the ratio of the population of athiests compared to the population of atheists in prison?
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.
And
knoell's gonna tell myke about crime stats.[/QUOTE]You aren't going to provide statistics that show the ratio of the population of athiests compared to the population of atheists in prison?
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.
cindersphere
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[quote name='Knoell']You aren't going to provide statistics that show the ratio of the population of athiests compared to the population of atheists in prison?
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.[/QUOTE]
Debate what? Why you think it is normal that 25 percent of the population makes up about 60 percent of the prison population?
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.[/QUOTE]
Debate what? Why you think it is normal that 25 percent of the population makes up about 60 percent of the prison population?
mykevermin
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[quote name='Knoell']Did even you look at the website?
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).[/QUOTE]
...and hispanics make up *what* percentage of the US population?
Don't start arguing numbers if you aren't literate.
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).[/QUOTE]
...and hispanics make up *what* percentage of the US population?
Don't start arguing numbers if you aren't literate.
xxDOYLExx
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[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Getting out of the country is a lot harder than you might think. I mean, I guess you can just pack a suitcase, overstay your visa and live on the streets somewhere. Otherwise there is an arduous process just like there is here. The move is even more difficult for the poor classes of people that are primarily the ones afflicted.
Alternatively, you can feel reasonably good about most of the things in our country but want to fix some things. Afterward, we can proceed to return the comments about leaving the country to the people who used to make them.[/QUOTE]
immigrating to another country from america is actually a lot harder than immigrating to america. have you read up on Mexico's laws? It's actually quite ironic.
Alternatively, you can feel reasonably good about most of the things in our country but want to fix some things. Afterward, we can proceed to return the comments about leaving the country to the people who used to make them.[/QUOTE]
immigrating to another country from america is actually a lot harder than immigrating to america. have you read up on Mexico's laws? It's actually quite ironic.
[quote name='cindersphere']Debate what? Why you think it is normal that 25 percent of the population makes up about over 60 percent of the prison population?[/QUOTE]
I don't know why it is, but I have theories about the living situations in inner cities, and the social programs that keep people these there (everyone). It would be interesting to find a statistic showing where they (everyone) city vs suburb vs rural living at the time of arrest.
I bet if it turns out the city has more arrests and convictions then cops must hate the city too. kidding.
The only strange thing that would come from that statistic is if there was a disproportionate ratio between one of the categories. Like if the city had less crime than rural in terms of proportion not raw numbers.
I don't know why it is, but I have theories about the living situations in inner cities, and the social programs that keep people these there (everyone). It would be interesting to find a statistic showing where they (everyone) city vs suburb vs rural living at the time of arrest.
I bet if it turns out the city has more arrests and convictions then cops must hate the city too. kidding.
The only strange thing that would come from that statistic is if there was a disproportionate ratio between one of the categories. Like if the city had less crime than rural in terms of proportion not raw numbers.
mykevermin
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It would be totally weird if rural areas have differential crime rates compared to urban areas. Because they're exactly alike and not qualitatively different.
Because there are so many meth labs densely-populated urban areas.
Because there are so many meth labs densely-populated urban areas.
[quote name='mykevermin']...and hispanics make up *what* percentage of the US population?
Don't start arguing numbers if you aren't literate.[/QUOTE]
...insults insults insults....
You made a very misleading comment, you said "except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population."
This would lead people who don't know the numbers to believe that blacks and hispanics have the same disproportion in population and prison population which isnt the case.
35% of inmates are black.
18% of inmates are hispanic.
12.5% of the US population are hispanic.
12% of the US population are black.
Now tell me why you brought up hispanics again? You think that their ratio (which is less than half as disproportionate as the black population) is a reason to not talk about and ignore why the black prison population is so disproportionate?
Don't start arguing numbers if you aren't literate.[/QUOTE]
...insults insults insults....
You made a very misleading comment, you said "except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population."
This would lead people who don't know the numbers to believe that blacks and hispanics have the same disproportion in population and prison population which isnt the case.
35% of inmates are black.
18% of inmates are hispanic.
12.5% of the US population are hispanic.
12% of the US population are black.
Now tell me why you brought up hispanics again? You think that their ratio (which is less than half as disproportionate as the black population) is a reason to not talk about and ignore why the black prison population is so disproportionate?
[quote name='Knoell']You aren't going to provide statistics that show the ratio of the population of athiests compared to the population of atheists in prison?
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.[/QUOTE]
You hate debates. You've only directly responded to any of my posts if they aren't substantive, like that one. Otherwise you deflect.
The statistics for atheists in prison don't really exist, they don't keep good statistics for religious affiliation of prisoners. The point is that inferring that religious belief leads to crime from data such as that would be idiotic (and putting a capital A will bring Crotch around).
Sigh...almost thought I could get a real debate.[/QUOTE]
You hate debates. You've only directly responded to any of my posts if they aren't substantive, like that one. Otherwise you deflect.
The statistics for atheists in prison don't really exist, they don't keep good statistics for religious affiliation of prisoners. The point is that inferring that religious belief leads to crime from data such as that would be idiotic (and putting a capital A will bring Crotch around).
cindersphere
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[quote name='xycury']I would have thought those numbers would be higher than that.[/QUOTE]
Its a half story when you also factor in recidivism rates as well as parole rates between the races. Also while these do reflect national averages states with a Latino population have a higher percentage of minorities in prison, such as California where a large percentage of the prison are nortenos and surenos. In Midwestern states the rate is lower, which is inline with population, and while crime rates are the same the percentages usually come from african-american population but also white populations as well.
[quote name='SpazX']You hate debates. You've only directly responded to any of my posts if they aren't substantive, like that one. Otherwise you deflect.
The statistics for atheists in prison don't really exist, they don't keep good statistics for religious affiliation of prisoners. The point is that inferring that religious belief leads to crime from data such as that would be idiotic (and putting a capital A will bring Crotch around).[/QUOTE]
There actually was a study done on this a few years back. Atheists are under represented and if I remember right christians and muslims are actually the top two religious organizations in prison. I am in the middle of midterms right now. Later on this week I will try to find these statistics again.
Its a half story when you also factor in recidivism rates as well as parole rates between the races. Also while these do reflect national averages states with a Latino population have a higher percentage of minorities in prison, such as California where a large percentage of the prison are nortenos and surenos. In Midwestern states the rate is lower, which is inline with population, and while crime rates are the same the percentages usually come from african-american population but also white populations as well.
[quote name='SpazX']You hate debates. You've only directly responded to any of my posts if they aren't substantive, like that one. Otherwise you deflect.
The statistics for atheists in prison don't really exist, they don't keep good statistics for religious affiliation of prisoners. The point is that inferring that religious belief leads to crime from data such as that would be idiotic (and putting a capital A will bring Crotch around).[/QUOTE]
There actually was a study done on this a few years back. Atheists are under represented and if I remember right christians and muslims are actually the top two religious organizations in prison. I am in the middle of midterms right now. Later on this week I will try to find these statistics again.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='xxDOYLExx']immigrating to another country from america is actually a lot harder than immigrating to america. have you read up on Mexico's laws? It's actually quite ironic.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm lazy. Please elaborate.
No, I'm lazy. Please elaborate.
The Crotch
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[quote name='SpazX']The statistics for atheists in prison don't really exist, they don't keep good statistics for religious affiliation of prisoners. The point is that inferring that religious belief leads to crime from data such as that would be idiotic (and putting a capital A will bring Crotch around).[/QUOTE]
You bastard son of a cunt.
You bastard son of a cunt.
[quote name='cindersphere']There actually was a study done on this a few years back. Atheists are under represented and if I remember right christians and muslims are actually the top two religious organizations in prison. I am in the middle of midterms right now. Later on this week I will try to find these statistics again.[/QUOTE]
I've seen some numbers, but I don't trust them. If you find what you're talking about then I'll look at what you've got.
I imagine Christians would make up the bulk anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if atheists actually are underrepresented, but their imprisonment would have little to do with the fact that they're Christian or atheist of course.
I've seen some numbers, but I don't trust them. If you find what you're talking about then I'll look at what you've got.
I imagine Christians would make up the bulk anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if atheists actually are underrepresented, but their imprisonment would have little to do with the fact that they're Christian or atheist of course.
[quote name='cindersphere']Its a half story when you also factor in recidivism rates as well as parole rates between the races. Also while these do reflect national averages states with a Latino population have a higher percentage of minorities in prison, such as California where a large percentage of the prison are nortenos and surenos. In Midwestern states the rate is lower, which is inline with population, and while crime rates are the same the percentages usually come from african-american population but also white populations as well.
[/QUOTE]
Those weren't averages they were total numbers.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf take a look at page 36. Blacks double and almost triple inmates per 1000 of the US population in every age group. Again this does not mean all blacks commit crimes nor does it mean whites are incapable of committing crime.
heres a report although I'm still trying to find the cited stats. Look at page 8.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf
[/QUOTE]
Those weren't averages they were total numbers.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf take a look at page 36. Blacks double and almost triple inmates per 1000 of the US population in every age group. Again this does not mean all blacks commit crimes nor does it mean whites are incapable of committing crime.
heres a report although I'm still trying to find the cited stats. Look at page 8.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf
mykevermin
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[quote name='Knoell']12.5% of the US population are hispanic.[/QUOTE]
nope. try again.
nope. try again.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='mykevermin']nope. try again.[/QUOTE]
Higher or lower? Does it include all of those illegals taking my yob and raping all the white women?
Higher or lower? Does it include all of those illegals taking my yob and raping all the white women?
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Higher or lower? Does it include all of those illegals taking my yob and raping all the white women?[/QUOTE]
*pulls number out of ass.
2008 reported 15%. Growth of 3.2% for one year, 2007>2008. I would guess that that number would grow too.
So it could be well over 20%, and maybe close to 25% which I would agree with more.
12.5% is ... just not making sense.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hispanic/hispanic_pop_presentation.html
Data is from 2006 in that gov site, the first one has more present data.
really the Census for 2010 would be excellent right now....
*pulls number out of ass.
2008 reported 15%. Growth of 3.2% for one year, 2007>2008. I would guess that that number would grow too.
So it could be well over 20%, and maybe close to 25% which I would agree with more.
12.5% is ... just not making sense.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hispanic/hispanic_pop_presentation.html
Data is from 2006 in that gov site, the first one has more present data.
really the Census for 2010 would be excellent right now....
did you guys read the part where it says stuff about the 2000 census...
According to the US Census Bureau, the US population in 2000 was 281,421,906. Of that, 194,552,774 (69.1%) were white; 33,947,837 (12.1%) were black; and 35,305,818 (12.5%) were of Hispanic origin. Additionally, 2,068,883 (0.7%) were Native American, and 10,123,169 (3.8%) were Asian.
Try to read the evidence before you bash me instead of talking about the issue.
Even if you factor in the population growth between 2000 and 2007 the disproportions are the same.
According to the US Census Bureau, the US population in 2000 was 281,421,906. Of that, 194,552,774 (69.1%) were white; 33,947,837 (12.1%) were black; and 35,305,818 (12.5%) were of Hispanic origin. Additionally, 2,068,883 (0.7%) were Native American, and 10,123,169 (3.8%) were Asian.
Try to read the evidence before you bash me instead of talking about the issue.
Even if you factor in the population growth between 2000 and 2007 the disproportions are the same.
cindersphere
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[quote name='Knoell']Those weren't averages they were total numbers.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf take a look at page 36. Blacks double and almost triple inmates per 1000 of the US population in every age group. Again this does not mean all blacks commit crimes nor does it mean whites are incapable of committing crime.
heres a report although I'm still trying to find the cited stats. Look at page 8.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf[/QUOTE]
I say averages, with the administration errors inherent in our justice system, I would not be surprised if these numbers were off. Especially considering how a person is tallied into each race. The presence of biracial or undercover minorities can also affect the collection of the data in prison statistics. Also in terms of good statistics coming from our justice system from things like prison rates, and the almost downright refusal to track aids cases until recently makes me question a lot of doj statistics, especially when other groups print their own statistics that differ with the doj. Beyond this still only half the picture. What about juveniles where african americans (from here on out I say blacks) in many states constitute about half of the people in juvenile detention.
However, as vermin points out, the main point isn't if the numbers are correct, but why are the statistics like this in the first place. If you think it is okay that minorities are over represented in prisons by a margin of 2-3 and see nothing wrong with it, then there is a problem.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf take a look at page 36. Blacks double and almost triple inmates per 1000 of the US population in every age group. Again this does not mean all blacks commit crimes nor does it mean whites are incapable of committing crime.
heres a report although I'm still trying to find the cited stats. Look at page 8.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf[/QUOTE]
I say averages, with the administration errors inherent in our justice system, I would not be surprised if these numbers were off. Especially considering how a person is tallied into each race. The presence of biracial or undercover minorities can also affect the collection of the data in prison statistics. Also in terms of good statistics coming from our justice system from things like prison rates, and the almost downright refusal to track aids cases until recently makes me question a lot of doj statistics, especially when other groups print their own statistics that differ with the doj. Beyond this still only half the picture. What about juveniles where african americans (from here on out I say blacks) in many states constitute about half of the people in juvenile detention.
However, as vermin points out, the main point isn't if the numbers are correct, but why are the statistics like this in the first place. If you think it is okay that minorities are over represented in prisons by a margin of 2-3 and see nothing wrong with it, then there is a problem.
[quote name='Knoell']Did even you look at the website?
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).[/QUOTE]
(2007) "Of the 2.3 million inmates in custody, 2.1 million were men and 208,300 were women (table 9). Black males represented the largest percentage (35.4%) of inmates held in custody, followed by white males (32.9%) and Hispanic males (17.9%).[/QUOTE]
[quote name='cindersphere']
However, as vermin points out, the main point isn't if the numbers are correct, but why are the statistics like this in the first place. If you think it is okay that minorities are over represented in prisons by a margin of 2-3 and see nothing wrong with it, then there is a problem.[/QUOTE]
.....that was my point from the beginning, then I asked quite honestly why you all think this occurs? I dont think its about race, I think more blacks live in the city than anywhere else, and inner city conditions are terrible. and you all attacked the statistics.
However, as vermin points out, the main point isn't if the numbers are correct, but why are the statistics like this in the first place. If you think it is okay that minorities are over represented in prisons by a margin of 2-3 and see nothing wrong with it, then there is a problem.[/QUOTE]
.....that was my point from the beginning, then I asked quite honestly why you all think this occurs? I dont think its about race, I think more blacks live in the city than anywhere else, and inner city conditions are terrible. and you all attacked the statistics.
[quote name='Knoell'].....that was my point from the beginning, then I asked quite honestly why you all think this occurs? I dont think its about race, I think more blacks live in the city than anywhere else, and inner city conditions are terrible. and you all attacked the statistics.[/QUOTE]
From the beginning we were attacking your logic (for example, myke's first post, the first post in response to you). The hispanic crime rate was just the only thing you responded to.
You're discounting racism by saying that black people live in bad conditions in cities?
From the beginning we were attacking your logic (for example, myke's first post, the first post in response to you). The hispanic crime rate was just the only thing you responded to.
You're discounting racism by saying that black people live in bad conditions in cities?
cindersphere
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[quote name='Knoell']I love how you are criticizing him, and practically saying that the reason blacks have a higher ratio to whites in prison is because everyone is racist to them?
Again, you are all speaking from your hearts and not your heads. Here are some statistics. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/64
According to the 2000 Census Whites make up 69.1% of the US population. Blacks make up 12.5% of the US population. Hispanics make up 12.5% of the US population. In 2007, the prison population is made up of 2,308,300 million people. Blacks make up 35.4% of that population. Whites make up 32.9% and hispanics make up 17.9% of the prison population.
So how is it that 12.5% of the US population make up 35.4% percent of the prison population? Of course this does not mean all blacks commit crime, nor does it mean that whites are incapable of commiting crime. The statistics do show however that there must be a reason that this is true. I do not believe that we have a margin of error of racism in 1 in 2.78 (prison population) to a 1 in 64 (U.S. population). There must be another reason besides racism that this is occuring, you don't see hispanic numbers up there nearly as high as blacks. Remember these are in jail statistics so they were allegedly arrested, tried, and sentanced.
It is a touchy subject to be sure because anytime you talk about it, the racist witchhunt begins, but the statistics prove it so maybe we should talk about why it is happening.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Knoell'].....that was my point from the beginning, then I asked quite honestly why you all think this occurs? I dont think its about race, I think more blacks live in the city than anywhere else, and inner city conditions are terrible. and you all attacked the statistics.[/QUOTE]
To me this looks like you are trying to deflect the racism component and act like you are trying to have a debate at the same time, I don't like people who stack the deck. In reality you are never debating, your simply needling.
Again, you are all speaking from your hearts and not your heads. Here are some statistics. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/node/64
According to the 2000 Census Whites make up 69.1% of the US population. Blacks make up 12.5% of the US population. Hispanics make up 12.5% of the US population. In 2007, the prison population is made up of 2,308,300 million people. Blacks make up 35.4% of that population. Whites make up 32.9% and hispanics make up 17.9% of the prison population.
So how is it that 12.5% of the US population make up 35.4% percent of the prison population? Of course this does not mean all blacks commit crime, nor does it mean that whites are incapable of commiting crime. The statistics do show however that there must be a reason that this is true. I do not believe that we have a margin of error of racism in 1 in 2.78 (prison population) to a 1 in 64 (U.S. population). There must be another reason besides racism that this is occuring, you don't see hispanic numbers up there nearly as high as blacks. Remember these are in jail statistics so they were allegedly arrested, tried, and sentanced.
It is a touchy subject to be sure because anytime you talk about it, the racist witchhunt begins, but the statistics prove it so maybe we should talk about why it is happening.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='Knoell'].....that was my point from the beginning, then I asked quite honestly why you all think this occurs? I dont think its about race, I think more blacks live in the city than anywhere else, and inner city conditions are terrible. and you all attacked the statistics.[/QUOTE]
To me this looks like you are trying to deflect the racism component and act like you are trying to have a debate at the same time, I don't like people who stack the deck. In reality you are never debating, your simply needling.
depascal22
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http://mediamatters.org/research/201005050001
Did anyone read this link? We could argue with Knoell all day and it will just lead to an aneurysm. Scroll down below the Scarborough and Barnicle piece and you'll find some really good stuff.
Basically Knoell, the cops and the courts are set up against the poor black man. Rights are never fully explained unless you have a decent lawyer. Bad plea bargains (that still carry hefty jail time) are taken because defendants don't know any better. Like any other part of government, most people are up in arms about the draconian rules that only favor those in the know. I don't know what else to say.
You might not think racism is a factor in every arrest but I'm pretty sure racism played a role in every inmate's story. Black and brown people didn't build the ghetto. Hell, some of you probably don't think black people build anything. Can't stay on food stamps when you work, right?
Did anyone read this link? We could argue with Knoell all day and it will just lead to an aneurysm. Scroll down below the Scarborough and Barnicle piece and you'll find some really good stuff.
Basically Knoell, the cops and the courts are set up against the poor black man. Rights are never fully explained unless you have a decent lawyer. Bad plea bargains (that still carry hefty jail time) are taken because defendants don't know any better. Like any other part of government, most people are up in arms about the draconian rules that only favor those in the know. I don't know what else to say.
You might not think racism is a factor in every arrest but I'm pretty sure racism played a role in every inmate's story. Black and brown people didn't build the ghetto. Hell, some of you probably don't think black people build anything. Can't stay on food stamps when you work, right?
[quote name='depascal22']http://mediamatters.org/research/201005050001
Did anyone read this link? We could argue with Knoell all day and it will just lead to an aneurysm. Scroll down below the Scarborough and Barnicle piece and you'll find some really good stuff.
Basically Knoell, the cops and the courts are set up against the poor black man. Rights are never fully explained unless you have a decent lawyer. Bad plea bargains (that still carry hefty jail time) are taken because defendants don't know any better. Like any other part of government, most people are up in arms about the draconian rules that only favor those in the know. I don't know what else to say.
You might not think racism is a factor in every arrest but I'm pretty sure racism played a role in every inmate's story. Black and brown people didn't build the ghetto. Hell, some of you probably don't think black people build anything. Can't stay on food stamps when you work, right?[/QUOTE]
You quoted mediamatters? Really? Really? The same people who quoted the bolded line but seemed to ignore the part directly after it.
CIS: "No clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others." The November 2009 CIS report stated:
In conclusion, we find that it would be a mistake to assume that immigrants as a group are more prone to crime than other groups, or that they should be viewed with more suspicion than others. Even though immigrant incarceration rates are high in some populations, there is no clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others. Nevertheless, it also would be a mistake to conclude that immigrant crime is insignificant or that offenders' immigration status is irrelevant in local policing. The newer information available as a result of better screening of the incarcerated population suggests that, in many parts of the country, immigrants are responsible for a significant share of crime. This indicates that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement agencies to determine the immigration status of offenders and to work with federal immigration authorities. [CIS, "Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue," November 2009]
Wow, Im sure a few judges would love to have your ear. You just called our entire justice system inherently racist.
Did anyone read this link? We could argue with Knoell all day and it will just lead to an aneurysm. Scroll down below the Scarborough and Barnicle piece and you'll find some really good stuff.
Basically Knoell, the cops and the courts are set up against the poor black man. Rights are never fully explained unless you have a decent lawyer. Bad plea bargains (that still carry hefty jail time) are taken because defendants don't know any better. Like any other part of government, most people are up in arms about the draconian rules that only favor those in the know. I don't know what else to say.
You might not think racism is a factor in every arrest but I'm pretty sure racism played a role in every inmate's story. Black and brown people didn't build the ghetto. Hell, some of you probably don't think black people build anything. Can't stay on food stamps when you work, right?[/QUOTE]
You quoted mediamatters? Really? Really? The same people who quoted the bolded line but seemed to ignore the part directly after it.
CIS: "No clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others." The November 2009 CIS report stated:
In conclusion, we find that it would be a mistake to assume that immigrants as a group are more prone to crime than other groups, or that they should be viewed with more suspicion than others. Even though immigrant incarceration rates are high in some populations, there is no clear evidence that immigrants commit crimes at higher or lower rates than others. Nevertheless, it also would be a mistake to conclude that immigrant crime is insignificant or that offenders' immigration status is irrelevant in local policing. The newer information available as a result of better screening of the incarcerated population suggests that, in many parts of the country, immigrants are responsible for a significant share of crime. This indicates that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement agencies to determine the immigration status of offenders and to work with federal immigration authorities. [CIS, "Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue," November 2009]
Wow, Im sure a few judges would love to have your ear. You just called our entire justice system inherently racist.
Dr Mario Kart
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So you've got stats that say they dont commit crimes at higher rates but are imprisoned vastly more. That sounds like racism to me.
mykevermin
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Center for Immigration Studies.
lol.
lol.
[quote name='SpazX']From the beginning we were attacking your logic (for example, myke's first post, the first post in response to you). The hispanic crime rate was just the only thing you responded to.
You're discounting racism by saying that black people live in bad conditions in cities?[/QUOTE]
So you are living under the idea that the reason blacks are 1 in 2.78 of inmates and 1 in 8 in the US population is that were all a bunch of racists?
How am I discounting racism in the least? All im saying is that there has to be other factors attributed to this disproportion than the white man setting the black man up. I wanted to discuss these other factors, but as usual noone will get away from the racist aspect.
heres what myke said
[quote name='mykevermin']except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population.
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion. [/QUOTE]
Is this what I didnt comment on? How is this different than what Im saying? As I said above, I wanted to talk about these other conditions that dont involve racism, but Im too busy defending myself from the racism witchhunt. Racism cannot be the only reason for black peoples problems.
You're discounting racism by saying that black people live in bad conditions in cities?[/QUOTE]
So you are living under the idea that the reason blacks are 1 in 2.78 of inmates and 1 in 8 in the US population is that were all a bunch of racists?
How am I discounting racism in the least? All im saying is that there has to be other factors attributed to this disproportion than the white man setting the black man up. I wanted to discuss these other factors, but as usual noone will get away from the racist aspect.
heres what myke said
[quote name='mykevermin']except you're wrong b/c incarcerated populations are disproportionately hispanic - i.e., like blacks their proportion of the prison population is greater than their proportion of the US population.
you're also coming to a conclusion (blacks are more crime prone) without controlling for *anything else* in the world. Not policing, not legislation and policy making, not poverty, not unemployment.
you're using the conclusion to satisfy the conclusion. [/QUOTE]
Is this what I didnt comment on? How is this different than what Im saying? As I said above, I wanted to talk about these other conditions that dont involve racism, but Im too busy defending myself from the racism witchhunt. Racism cannot be the only reason for black peoples problems.
[quote name='Knoell']So you are living under the idea that the reason blacks are 1 in 2.78 of inmates and 1 in 8 in the US population is that were all a bunch of racists?
How am I discounting racism in the least? All im saying is that there has to be other factors attributed to this disproportion than the white man setting the black man up. I wanted to discuss these other factors, but as usual noone will get away from the racist aspect.
heres what myke said
Is this what I didnt comment on? How is this different than what Im saying? As I said above, I wanted to talk about these other conditions that dont involve racism, but Im too busy defending myself from the racism witchhunt. Racism cannot be the only reason for black peoples problems.[/QUOTE]
So I'm assuming here that you think that myke's list and racism are mutually exclusive?
How am I discounting racism in the least? All im saying is that there has to be other factors attributed to this disproportion than the white man setting the black man up. I wanted to discuss these other factors, but as usual noone will get away from the racist aspect.
heres what myke said
Is this what I didnt comment on? How is this different than what Im saying? As I said above, I wanted to talk about these other conditions that dont involve racism, but Im too busy defending myself from the racism witchhunt. Racism cannot be the only reason for black peoples problems.[/QUOTE]
So I'm assuming here that you think that myke's list and racism are mutually exclusive?
JolietJake
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From what i can tell, this is Knoell's reaction to any issue involving race.
bread's done