CAGcast #189: DRM Free!

Good show and good sound quality ,too. I not pissed at the DRM because piracy on the pc is Crazy but I don't think any DRM have even worked good . I disagree with wombat about assassin creed 2 being better for the console ,because Pc offers better graphics faster frame rates ,and higher resolutions ,and you can connect ps3 or 360 controller to it, but I haven't seen this port ,I am just showing pc is very versatile.
 
[quote name='Earmuffin585']Good show and good sound quality ,too. I not pissed at the DRM because piracy on the pc is Crazy but I don't think any DRM have even worked good . I disagree with wombat about assassin creed 2 being better for the console ,because Pc offers better graphics faster frame rates ,and higher resolutions ,and you can connect ps3 or 360 controller to it, but I haven't seen this port ,I am just showing pc is very versatile.[/QUOTE]

Games made for the PC look, play and perform better on the PC. Games made for consoles and sloppily ported to the PC don't do so well but that is not the PC's fault so much as lazy developers and/or pushy publishers.

Yeah Wombat calling all PC gamers a bunch pirates... right, that's why the PC game market is a multi-billion dollar market and two of the most successful franchises ever are on... the PC.
 
[quote name='Curufinwe']http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235596&site=pcg[/QUOTE]



Thanks!

Well, to be honest still - I don't see it as a big deal. Servers rarely go down (how often do you go to sites that are down????)....and as I mentioned, all they have to do is patch a game later on with a no-DRM patch, and it would eliminate the need for the online connection (which could be done later on if they choose to shut down any servers for older games). By that time, sales would have dropped enough to not worry about it.
 
Thanks for another great show guys! I'm glad you guys mentioned how bad Risen was, because I went right to my Gamefly q and removed it. I will be buying the PS3 version of Final Fantasy 13 because of a problem I had with Lost Odyssey: Disc 4 was defective. I want it on 1 disc not 3, so I won't have to wait for Square Enix to ship a replacement for any defective discs.
 
I don't expect someone who is a console-only gamer like Wombat to understand the issues concerning PC gamers like myself, but his contempt for the idea of a PC version of AC2 is absurd. Does he realize that you can plug in a 360 controller and enjoy the same experience on games like AC2 that are built around the gamepad? Maybe some of us enjoy playing games at 60 fps and high resolutions.

Piracy is an issue with PC games, no shit, but it doesn't mean the platform shouldn't be supported or that people don't buy and play PC games legit. Look at my Steam folder and I can prove that.
 
Wow, the cagcast thread is turning into a heated argument about PC DRM issues? Isn't this a console podcast? I have never heard any of the hosts discuss PC gaming. Anyway, as said on the cagcast, its AC2 on PC, who really cares? You shouldn't be playing AC on the PC anyway, play a strategy game,
there's a ton of good ones coming out this year.
In 10 years if ubisoft wants to take down the servers for PC AC2, they can just patch the game to work w/o connection, problem solved. By that time they won't care about pirating of AC2, hell it will probably be free to download and play.
 
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']Gonna have to agree with Wombat about this one for a simple reason. People, while bitching about how mean Ubisoft is, forgot about this.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/13/no-drm-prince-persia-what039s

It wasn't just Prince of Persia though, every game they dropped for three full months were DRM free as a test to see if consumers would support such efforts. So how did it fair? Over 5 million torrent downloads and less than 200K sold across retail and Steam for the first full year.

So everyone thinking Ubisoft is being unreasonable? Screw you. When they TRUSTED the PC users, they received the single highest pirated game they ever released. If PC gamers want games, they NEED to quit stealing them because, as Shipwreck said, when this doesn't work, support for the platform dies. No ifs,ands,or buts. This is their line in the sand, if it's compromised... well let's just say you've lost yet another developer pulling support for the much more profitable PS360 sales. Want to keep your industry intact, how about you actually start BUYING the games.[/QUOTE]

Wait, Ubisoft had a non-DRM trial period? I had been avoiding their PC stuff since they started using Starforce, and I just assumed I should go for the pirated version of anything they put out to avoid the hassle.

Here's the deal: There are two types of pirates out there. First are the ones who wouldn't or couldn't purchase the game anyway. These aren't lost sales. They might even convert to real sales one day if they get enough brand loyalty during the free plays (Kind of like considering listening to a song on the radio "stealing".)

The second type are the ones that publishers create. Real world analogy, imagine if they raised movie prices to offset the lost income due to people sneaking into the theater mid-movie. On top of that though, imagine they stopped the movie every 20 minutes and turned up the lights so ushers could go through the aisles checking IDs and ticket stubs. An alternative is available though: Go home and click a button, and then watch the whole thing uninterrupted on your television. Oh, and it's free.

I'm as honest of a person as the next guy, but I don't particularly like paying to be treated like a potential criminal. The PC game industry especially has been breeding their own pirates for years, training people to look for these things. One of their most basic forms of anti-piracy is the CD check, and that just resulted in everyone learning about cracks and patches that negate that requirement. After that, it's very honestly about the path of least resistance.

It's very simple: If you want people to do something, you have to make it preferable. You don't make the option you want them to take the least appealing and then rely on the moral distinction. Steam figured this out, it's more hassle to pirate Valve games than it is to just buy them on Steam, and then have them available to install anywhere, for free. I've got a 14 hour flight coming up. Know what I'll be playing? Steam games. Know what I won't be playing? Assassin's Creed 2. At least not a legitimate version.

Final note though: Wombat, "who is going to be playing a game 10 years from now?" is a horrible rationalization for DRM. The number is arbitrary, the main problem is you really don't know how long those servers will be up. Again, which is the more tempting option, paying for uncertainty, or just downloading something that, much like Apple fans tout about the Mac, "Just works"? No caveats, no fine print.
 
[quote name='Energy Penguin']Wow, the cagcast thread is turning into a heated argument about PC DRM issues? Isn't this a console podcast? I have never heard any of the hosts discuss PC gaming. Anyway, as said on the cagcast, its AC2 on PC, who really cares? You shouldn't be playing AC on the PC anyway, play a strategy game,
there's a ton of good ones coming out this year.
In 10 years if ubisoft wants to take down the servers for PC AC2, they can just patch the game to work w/o connection, problem solved. By that time they won't care about pirating of AC2, hell it will probably be free to download and play.[/QUOTE]

If its a console podcast why are they talking about PC DRM?
 
Loved the show!

A few comments on the DRM discussion. I'm pretty sure we all know that the DRM restrictions really only affect the legitimate consumers in the long run. Pirates will always end up with the more superior (meaning less restricted) version of the game. There are plenty of servers out there dedicated for illegitimate copies of WoW, and many other games (modded servers for COD:MW2, etc.). DRM is not going to deter pirates, it hasn't, and it won't. If it's made, it will be cracked. I'm not condoning it, but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation and the DRM will not stop it, as it will just be cracked. There will always be a way around it.

For a legitimate customer, this really sucks for several reasons. Piracy aside, you bought the game. I don't like "renting" the game from a company only to have them take away my ability to play it whenever they want to. They may not even want to. Things happen, they could go out of business, and BAM, no support, no game.

Any time i want I can break out my old NES or any other system, pop in a game and play no problem. Unfortunately this will not be the case in years to come for some people with some games. I don't want the risk of that happening to me, so I don't support the companies/games that do this. I vote with my wallet, as all consumers do. The business strategy needs to be adapted. We saw the same thing happen with the music industry. DRM only hurt it as it moved into the digital era. Now you can get all your music from iTunes/Amazon completely DRM free, and has it hurt the sales? No. Again, it's the business model that needs to adapt to the new digital era. You can't stop piracy, but there are ways to make it so that the legitimate product is more appealing. Limiting the "rights" someone has to their own purchased merchandise is not that way to do it.
 
Good show as usual. Glad to have the audio back to normal after the last couple of shows.

I also like having Shipwreck aka Boatcrash on the show. 2 is ok, 4's a crowd, 3 makes for a good mix in a podcast in my opinion.

Thanks for pointing out JM's The Time Belt. I am a fan of Joystiq and somehow I missed that.
 
why do cheapy and wombat say mare-e-ooo, can they not hear in the game they say Mario? i don't know why but it irritates me that cannot pronounce one of gaming's most important characters names!!!


good show as always, just learn how to say the damn name correctly! :)
 
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Am I the only person here who doesn't give a shit about Final Fantasy 13? I have been playing it since it's creation but starting with X-2 the series has been in a serious decline. I think they are going more realtime with all the combat and less and less exploration and I have no real interest in this one. I am going to skip it until I get it for $20 or less.

I do think that it well sell best in march, with the 360 version topping the chart.
 
Hey guys, I've been listening since cagcast #1 and have loved all of them. You guys talk about your lives in the way that real friends speak to one another and that,to me, is what makes the cast special. I'm listening to cast #188 as I type this and just want to say that I didn't think the audio was bad at all. Certainly 100% better than the last live show you did! I was wondering if there's a reason that Shipwrecks vocals always seems to be at a lower volume than the other 2 guys? Does he just speak more quietly or does he have his mic level set too low? I'd love to be able to hear him more clearly with out turning up the volume so much because then when Wombat and Cheapy speak it blows my eardrums out! Thanks guys.
 
As a PC gamer, I would rather not play ubisoft games at all over playing it with terrible DRM.

Look, I understand that companies need to protect their products, but if you're going to screw over the consumers in the process you need to rethink your strategy.

Maybe the better solution is to only release the game on steam or some other digital distribution site like direct 2 drive because that won't screw over the legit costumers and it would make it harder for pirates.
 
Cheapyd Does tai watch the Toei Super Sentai shows (the show that the power rangers were based on in america) I was just wondering if everyones kids watched it in japan I just started watching it. I liked the podcast it went well after having to deal with some bad customer service at a gamecrazy. anyhow thanks and Im hoping I can win for next weds contest.
 
[quote name='200STM']Cheapyd Does tai watch the Toei Super Sentai shows (the show that the power rangers were based on in america) I was just wondering if everyones kids watched it in japan I just started watching it. I liked the podcast it went well after having to deal with some bad customer service at a gamecrazy. anyhow thanks and Im hoping I can win for next weds contest.[/QUOTE]

Not to derail this thread, but tokusatsu shows are great. Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Ultraman. Good stuff. Highly recommend Kamen Rider Kabuto and, if you can find it, GARO.

Sorry to be off topic.
 
I liked the talk about project 10 dollar, but I'm curious about an facet you didn't address: How many of these games are traded in without codes or incentives used or redeemed? Do you think that if there is an unredeemed code included in the trade-in that GS and other retailers will take that into consideration when giving trade credit? Should this matter?

I believe that so many consumers are unaware of the promotion that they will ignore any pack-in much like most ignore the manual.
 
[quote name='retromufc']Am I the only person here who doesn't give a shit about Final Fantasy 13? I have been playing it since it's creation but starting with X-2 the series has been in a serious decline.[/QUOTE]

That's a weird statement. Starting with X-2, there's only been three Final Fantasies released in America; X-2, XI, and XII. And they're all completely different games.
 
The ending of this CAGcast was one of the funniest ever. Cheapy fucking with Wombat's shout-outs by editing in the Tic Tac Dough music was genius. I was laughing my ass off in my car on the commute home!
 
[quote name='Curufinwe']That's a weird statement. Starting with X-2, there's only been three Final Fantasies released in America; X-2, XI, and XII. And they're all completely different games.[/QUOTE]

X2 was mediocre story wise buy the gameplay was not bad. Admittedly I did not play XI since I did not want to shell out a monthly fee to play it. XII to me is the weak point in the FF series. It has been almost three years since I have played it but I do remember thinking the story was not very good and the almost completely automated battle system was terrible. This game looks more of the same and what little I have read about it does not interest me.
 
Hey, guys, nice show :).

I did want to put my two cents about the whole Project $10 issue. I think it comes down to a simple issue for certain gamers and buying it new or used (I'm bettin' more than just myself if I'm on a website called CHEAPASS GAMER): Does it really matter if I can get an extra weapon or an exclusive something-or-other? I rarely care because it doesn't BREAK the game if I don't own it! A game should have plenty of other weapons and armors for me to use and enjoy the game with! So they can take most of this "incentive" DLC and shove it right back up Wombat's ass.
 
I just used your crappy godaddy codes to register 5me77i.com, 5me77i.me, 5me77i.us, and 5me77i.biz. Total waste of money!

Does www.Gixen.com for eBay sniping have an affiliate program. Gixen is cheap and ROCKS. (no affiliation - no disclousures - totally random)

Luv the CAGcast!
 
[quote name='eberm72492']I have to disagree with wombat, i dont believe the 360 version of Final
Fantasy 13 is going to outsell the PS3 version.[/QUOTE]
It's just hard for me to imagine it outselling the ps3 version.
I'll take..

1. Battlefield BC2 Xbox 360
2. Final Fantasy XIII PS3
3. God of War III
4. Battlefield BC2 PS3
5. Final Fantasy XIII 360
 
you should have mentioned the Spore DRM(4 installs max then it wont install) and how it blew up in EA's face with all the complaints
 
[quote name='Gigan22'] As for the backlash from legit gamers, you can look at EA's Spore as an example. They placed a heavy drm on it and tons of people downloaded it out of spite.[/QUOTE]

You know, I love PC gaming, I really do. But you pointed out the problems, not the evidence. What happened when this occured? Here, let me break this down for you.

1. Command & Conquer has become an online persistant franchise thus requiring constant log-ins even when playing single player. In other words, they don't trust PC gamers anymore because the response to Red Alert 3's DRM, instead of of "I'm just not going to buy it" like MY reaction, was "I'm going to fucking steal it because I'm a self-entitled parasytic bastard manchild who feels EA owns me something beyond the game I just bought."

2. Battlefield has become a primarily console franchise with Bad Company 2. Meanwhile, the last two other battlefield games where either for a console downloadable service, or basically free... the only price the bulk of PC gamers are willing to pay.

3. Spore, the game at the center of the entire "evidence against" the DRM argument, has meanwhile shifted it's focus entirely to console with announced sequels on Wii, DS, PS3, and 360.

4. EA support of PC gaming in general has gone down dramatically since the Spore fiasco.

In essence, the PROPER reaction to DRM you object to is simply NOT buying the game. If you are stealing it just to send the message that you will steal it if they do this, guess what, message received. Tragically, the message is that your platform of choice is a variable den of theives who cannot be called upon to have nice things. So when a company says they can't trust you because of the Spore fiasco, just look at that torrent file on your hard drive while you were "sending a message" and try to argue with that logic.

What the downloading protest does is something that would be absolutely laughed out of court. Imagine this scenario. You're in a store and followed by some store detectives. It's annoying, stereotyping, and insulting. If you were a reasonable person, you would walk right up to this person, items in hand, put them in this persons hands and say, "Thanks, you've given me reason to shop elsewhere." The PC Gamer manchild response is instead to stop by electronics, grab handsfull of consoles and games, and run right out the front door. Then, as police show up, you tell them "I had to steal it because they THINK I'm a theif." In real life, the "stealing because of righteous indignation" cause doesn't work and the Judge will say ,"Yes, but you still STOLE it." Your right, as a consumer, is to take your business elsewhere. Your right is NOT to steal because you don't agree with the purchase agreement.

I say this because it is, in fact, truth. And if you're one of the PC gamers who buys games and hate to see this happen to your industry, guess what, I'm right there with you. I love PC gaming, enjoy the HELL out of Relic RTS games and many of the genres that just DO NOT work on a console. I love that it's a truly open platform. And if me saying any or all of this offends you and makes you wave your Steam account in the air to disprove this point, then guess what. You're the exception, NOT the rule. Just as I, when I disagree with DRM on a game decide NOT to buy it, am the exception, not the rule. And it's about damn time PC gamers start acknowledging the problem displayed in this very thread by the person who readily admitted he steals Ubisoft games just because they use Starforce.

There is the person responsible for Ubisofts actions. There is the reason why Epic has gone from being Unreal focused to Gears of War focused. There is the reason why PC games are now the after thought and PC is used more as the development platform for most games instead of the release platform.
 
[quote name='Curufinwe']That's a weird statement. Starting with X-2, there's only been three Final Fantasies released in America; X-2, XI, and XII. And they're all completely different games.[/QUOTE]

Technically XI came out on the PC a month before X-2, so the only Final Fantasy since X-2 has been XII, and even if you don't like XII I definitely wouldn't consider 1 game "a serious decline".
 
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']You know, I love PC gaming, I really do. But you pointed out the problems, not the evidence. What happened when this occured? Here, let me break this down for you.

1. Command & Conquer has become an online persistant franchise thus requiring constant log-ins even when playing single player. In other words, they don't trust PC gamers anymore because the response to Red Alert 3's DRM, instead of of "I'm just not going to buy it" like MY reaction, was "I'm going to fucking steal it because I'm a self-entitled parasytic bastard manchild who feels EA owns me something beyond the game I just bought."

2. Battlefield has become a primarily console franchise with Bad Company 2. Meanwhile, the last two other battlefield games where either for a console downloadable service, or basically free... the only price the bulk of PC gamers are willing to pay.

3. Spore, the game at the center of the entire "evidence against" the DRM argument, has meanwhile shifted it's focus entirely to console with announced sequels on Wii, DS, PS3, and 360.

4. EA support of PC gaming in general has gone down dramatically since the Spore fiasco.

In essence, the PROPER reaction to DRM you object to is simply NOT buying the game. If you are stealing it just to send the message that you will steal it if they do this, guess what, message received. Tragically, the message is that your platform of choice is a variable den of theives who cannot be called upon to have nice things. So when a company says they can't trust you because of the Spore fiasco, just look at that torrent file on your hard drive while you were "sending a message" and try to argue with that logic.

What the downloading protest does is something that would be absolutely laughed out of court. Imagine this scenario. You're in a store and followed by some store detectives. It's annoying, stereotyping, and insulting. If you were a reasonable person, you would walk right up to this person, items in hand, put them in this persons hands and say, "Thanks, you've given me reason to shop elsewhere." The PC Gamer manchild response is instead to stop by electronics, grab handsfull of consoles and games, and run right out the front door. Then, as police show up, you tell them "I had to steal it because they THINK I'm a theif." In real life, the "stealing because of righteous indignation" cause doesn't work and the Judge will say ,"Yes, but you still STOLE it." Your right, as a consumer, is to take your business elsewhere. Your right is NOT to steal because you don't agree with the purchase agreement.

I say this because it is, in fact, truth. And if you're one of the PC gamers who buys games and hate to see this happen to your industry, guess what, I'm right there with you. I love PC gaming, enjoy the HELL out of Relic RTS games and many of the genres that just DO NOT work on a console. I love that it's a truly open platform. And if me saying any or all of this offends you and makes you wave your Steam account in the air to disprove this point, then guess what. You're the exception, NOT the rule. Just as I, when I disagree with DRM on a game decide NOT to buy it, am the exception, not the rule. And it's about damn time PC gamers start acknowledging the problem displayed in this very thread by the person who readily admitted he steals Ubisoft games just because they use Starforce.

There is the person responsible for Ubisofts actions. There is the reason why Epic has gone from being Unreal focused to Gears of War focused. There is the reason why PC games are now the after thought and PC is used more as the development platform for most games instead of the release platform.[/QUOTE]

I most certainly agree with you. I'm not going to wave my Steam account in front of you, but am only going to say I tend to buy more indie titles on the PC because I can't acquire them on the consoles. That's not only because I prefer the consoles but I also don't have to deal with "Will my computer be able to handle this?" and all the other BS that comes with it. You can say I'm lazy or whatever, but doesn't matter to me. Thankfully, most of the indie scene is more than happy to pay for and support indie developers on the PC. The exception being World of Goo which, I think the statistic was some 85% of people on the PC leaderboards, had a very high illegal download percentage.

I guess my point is that I don't necessarily NOT buy games on the PC because of the drm, I just tend to buy them on the consoles where I don't have to deal with it. Makes me wonder how many people have done the same... The games I do buy on the PC tend not to have any drm anyway because they're indie games. Though it's much easier to snag them off of Steam if available.
 
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
1. Command & Conquer has become an online persistant franchise thus requiring constant log-ins even when playing single player. In other words, they don't trust PC gamers anymore because the response to Red Alert 3's DRM, instead of of "I'm just not going to buy it" like MY reaction, was "I'm going to fucking steal it because I'm a self-entitled parasytic bastard manchild who feels EA owns me something beyond the game I just bought."
[/QUOTE]
Did any one say that? No, But if a company cripple's a game with DRM that only promotes pirating.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
2. Battlefield has become a primarily console franchise with Bad Company 2. Meanwhile, the last two other battlefield games where either for a console downloadable service, or basically free... the only price the bulk of PC gamers are willing to pay.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying in response to selling millions of copies a game on the PC EA moved it's franchise to the console?
You realize that bad company is more of a spin off, 1943 is planned to be ported to the PC and Batttefield 3 is in the works as a PC only game.

[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
3. Spore, the game at the center of the entire "evidence against" the DRM argument, has meanwhile shifted it's focus entirely to console with announced sequels on Wii, DS, PS3, and 360.[/QUOTE]
You mean the game where no sequel has been announced yet, then next planned release is for the wii and PC and as far consoles go it had some spin offs on the wii and DS but the original game is still only available on the PC/mac ?
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
4. EA support of PC gaming in general has gone down dramatically since the Spore fiasco.[/QUOTE]
Judging by the accuracy of what you said so far I'm not taking your word for it.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
In essence, the PROPER reaction to DRM you object to is simply NOT buying the game. If you are stealing it just to send the message that you will steal it if they do this, guess what, message received. Tragically, the message is that your platform of choice is a variable den of theives who cannot be called upon to have nice things. So when a company says they can't trust you because of the Spore fiasco, just look at that torrent file on your hard drive while you were "sending a message" and try to argue with that logic.

What the downloading protest does is something that would be absolutely laughed out of court. Imagine this scenario. You're in a store and followed by some store detectives. It's annoying, stereotyping, and insulting. If you were a reasonable person, you would walk right up to this person, items in hand, put them in this persons hands and say, "Thanks, you've given me reason to shop elsewhere." The PC Gamer manchild response is instead to stop by electronics, grab handsfull of consoles and games, and run right out the front door. Then, as police show up, you tell them "I had to steal it because they THINK I'm a theif." In real life, the "stealing because of righteous indignation" cause doesn't work and the Judge will say ,"Yes, but you still STOLE it." Your right, as a consumer, is to take your business elsewhere. Your right is NOT to steal because you don't agree with the purchase agreement.

I say this because it is, in fact, truth. And if you're one of the PC gamers who buys games and hate to see this happen to your industry, guess what, I'm right there with you. I love PC gaming, enjoy the HELL out of Relic RTS games and many of the genres that just DO NOT work on a console. I love that it's a truly open platform. And if me saying any or all of this offends you and makes you wave your Steam account in the air to disprove this point, then guess what. You're the exception, NOT the rule. Just as I, when I disagree with DRM on a game decide NOT to buy it, am the exception, not the rule. And it's about damn time PC gamers start acknowledging the problem displayed in this very thread by the person who readily admitted he steals Ubisoft games just because they use Starforce.
[/QUOTE]
And do you no what a company will say if no one buys or pirates the game?
1. No one on this platform wants are games lets stop making them
2. They will still say it didn't sell well do to piracy.

Also I'd like to point out that piracy is becoming more prevalant on the consoles, with games like sf4 and mw2 being downloaded nearly 1,000,000 times, and many wii games have higher piracy numbers than sales numbers.
(this isn't even looking the handhelds)
As piracy gets easier on the consoles(as the consoles get more computer like) piracy will become a bigger problem for them too.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
There is the person responsible for Ubisofts actions. There is the reason why Epic has gone from being Unreal focused to Gears of War focused. There is the reason why PC games are now the after thought and PC is used more as the development platform for most games instead of the release platform.[/QUOTE]
Well then Ubisoft loses money. Plenty of other companies make money on the PC so if ubisoft can't then they are doing something wrong.

Any one that thinks that crippleing a game with DRM is going to help stop it from being pirated is an idiot. They may as well release free DLC that only works with pirated versions of the game.
 
DRM doesn't make any sense to me, well it does for what it's SUPPOSED to do. But the problem is, people that pirate games are going to pirate them no matter what. they have that mentality in the first place. And people that have the mentality to purchase a game are now going to be less likely to purchase the game because of DRM. It's something they have no reason to deal with because of the people that will ALWAYS pirate no matter what. It's ridiculous.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']
Well then Ubisoft loses money. Plenty of other companies make money on the PC so if ubisoft can't then they are doing something wrong.

Any one that thinks that crippleing a game with DRM is going to help stop it from being pirated is an idiot. They may as well release free DLC that only works with pirated versions of the game.[/QUOTE]

AHAHHAAHA, that's brilliant. Effectively, that's what they're doing. It would be much less work doing that too, put out a free hat for your player character if the exe is unsigned or something. People gravitate towards whatever is easiest or has the most benefit when all other things are equal, and by giving something to pirates for free, it's almost the same as putting limitations on the retail release. Absolutely brilliant, logic win. :)

I think that guy was talking about me as being the guy who "admitted to pirating Ubisoft titles", and I will gladly wave my steam account in front of his face. 265 games, thanks. It's also not that I pirate Ubisoft games out of spite because they used starforce, it's that I didn't even consider buying Ubisoft games for YEARS because a few games had that ugly DRM on them. That Ubisoft label may as well have said "may contain rat droppings". No matter what deal I got, I passed on it. Ubisoft also never really put anything out on PC first that I really wanted to try, I played most of their stuff on console.

Also, let's not kid ourselves, people, EA, Ubisoft, all the big players are investing heavily in console because that's where the money is, they're not trying to get away from pirates. PC gaming outside of maybe Steam is just too complicated. You need too much specialized hardware, patches, windows updates, etc. Too many things go wrong even on a good day, and throwing the perils of DRM on top of that just turns people right off.

As far as EA moving Spore to console... well, the game ultimately wasn't revolutionary or evolutionary at all, it was a mash up of very average knockoffs of games in other genres. So they sold it, but what now? They're not going to be able to sell creature clothing packs to bored housewives. I think they tried it with creature parts, but I can't imagine anyone picking that up (Ugh, you know what my creature needs? some FABULOUS new claws!). What can they really do to monetize that thing other than hope some 6 year old likes the primary colors in it and mom gets it for Christmas?

Again, I'm not pirating Ubisoft's stuff. I just have no desire to. I could get it in about 3 clicks, but it's just not worth my time. They've completely lost me as a PC game customer. PC gaming now is about convenience, it's the big boy's gameboy, and if I don't have access to my entire games library at a moment's notice from anywhere in the world, then really, what's the point of investing my time and money into the platform?
 
You guys may have missed this a couple of years ago, or whenever this was, but when Spore was released with heavy DRM, many people in the PC gaming community were so offended that Spore became the most torrented PC game of 2008. This was not because people had "made that decision" before the DRM was announced, as Wombat suggested about the piracy of Assasins Creed. This was largely because of a backlash against DRM.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Did any one say that? No, But if a company cripple's a game with DRM that only promotes pirating....[/QUOTE]
Condensed for space...

1. Why does that HAVE to promote pirating? It only PROMOTES pirating if you're a self-entitled prick. Period. If you feel that Red Alert 3's DRM is too restrictive and that entitles you to a free copy of the game, that isn't promotion. That shows a complete lack of morality. Restrictive DRM should, instead, promote a "no bai." That's as far as your rights, as a consumer, go.

2. Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 1943 are right at the top of DICE's worklist, let me tell you. That's why we're still waiting for a 9 month old game and DICE's is busting ass on medal of Honor's multiplayer...

3. With the EA Financials came Spore sequels on several platforms excluding only PSP and PS2. Mentioned focus on "next gen platforms." There typically is more to those financial stories than the one sentence summary Kotaku likes to do.

4. Okay, fair enough. But hey, remember back in 2008, when many, many of EA released titles came out day and date with the PC version or just about a month behind? Remember when Command & Conquer didn't require you to be online to play? Remember when a Visceral deved game hit PC as well and Mirror's Edge was delayed to add a shitton of PC exclusive features like PhysX support? Because I remember. And aside from BC2 talking about dedicated server support and Dragon's Age DLC, have you seen EA getting excited about ANYTHING they;re doing this year on PC? I certainly haven't. Hell, even the new Command & Conquer prelaunch hype is much lower than before Red Alert 3 got pirated to hell and back.

And finally, yes. The developers could, in fact, see lack of sales simply being that consumers will not buy on the platform. That's certainly how lazy PS3 devs saw lack of sales when their buggy, ugly year late ports to PS3 didn't sell. But that's where the other part comes in. You know, supporting the companies that DON'T do this. Show PC as a viable platform instead of the afterthought.

Because, in the end, your sales and your torrents do matter. If the money you were going to spend on Spore or Red Alert 3 went to Company of Heroes or Dawn of War II instead, guess what? That shows EA that RTS is still viable as a genre, just that there's SOMETHING people didn't like about Red Alert 3. But if the game, from a moral high ground, gets pirated to hell and back, then those numbers count too. Those numbers essentially say, "no matter what you do, we're going to steal."

And I say this because DRM wasn't something invented in a secret lab to screw over consumers. DRM was created AS a reaction to theft. And that's the part that annoys me. The pirates DO have a role in why this stuff keeps happening. And as long as the reaction to these moves is "your protections don't bother us, we'll get past them," then the message by action is NOT "we stole because of your DRM" but rather "we steal because we steal." And ultimately the focus is either quit making the kinds of games theives want (kind of like the PC Sims 3 EA focus), or just keep locking stuff down until you find the true lockdown.
 
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']Condensed for space...

1. Why does that HAVE to promote pirating? It only PROMOTES pirating if you're a self-entitled prick. Period. If you feel that Red Alert 3's DRM is too restrictive and that entitles you to a free copy of the game, that isn't promotion. That shows a complete lack of morality. Restrictive DRM should, instead, promote a "no bai." That's as far as your rights, as a consumer, go.[/QUOTE]
It promotes pirating the same way parking a unattended Porsche in the ghettos of Detroit for 2 hours with the doors unlocked windows open the engine running and your wallet on the seat promotes stealing.
Ya if we where in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, but we are not, so you take actions which encourage people to make the right choice, which in this case is making the legit version better than the pirated version.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
2. Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 1943 are right at the top of DICE's worklist, let me tell you. That's why we're still waiting for a 9 month old game and DICE's is busting ass on medal of Honor's multiplayer...
[/QUOTE]
You are they one who brought up battlefield and said it was now a console franchise, don't try to change the subject just because you where wrong.
Dice may not be focusing on the battlefield games I don't know, but I know that battlefield is still a PC franchise and as they have sold millions of copies I think they will continue it.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
3. With the EA Financials came Spore sequels on several platforms excluding only PSP and PS2. Mentioned focus on "next gen platforms." There typically is more to those financial stories than the one sentence summary Kotaku likes to do.[/QUOTE]
Well then do your research, spore is only out on PC and Nintendo consoles and there are no plans to bring it to the 360 or ps3 anymore.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
4. Okay, fair enough. But hey, remember back in 2008, when many, many of EA released titles came out day and date with the PC version or just about a month behind? Remember when Command & Conquer didn't require you to be online to play? Remember when a Visceral deved game hit PC as well and Mirror's Edge was delayed to add a shitton of PC exclusive features like PhysX support? Because I remember. And aside from BC2 talking about dedicated server support and Dragon's Age DLC, have you seen EA getting excited about ANYTHING they;re doing this year on PC? I certainly haven't. Hell, even the new Command & Conquer prelaunch hype is much lower than before Red Alert 3 got pirated to hell and back.[/QUOTE]
Actually I have never been that interested in EA's offering so I wouldn't know.
[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
And finally, yes. The developers could, in fact, see lack of sales simply being that consumers will not buy on the platform. That's certainly how lazy PS3 devs saw lack of sales when their buggy, ugly year late ports to PS3 didn't sell. But that's where the other part comes in. You know, supporting the companies that DON'T do this. Show PC as a viable platform instead of the afterthought.

Because, in the end, your sales and your torrents do matter. If the money you were going to spend on Spore or Red Alert 3 went to Company of Heroes or Dawn of War II instead, guess what? That shows EA that RTS is still viable as a genre, just that there's SOMETHING people didn't like about Red Alert 3. But if the game, from a moral high ground, gets pirated to hell and back, then those numbers count too. Those numbers essentially say, "no matter what you do, we're going to steal." [/QUOTE]
I don't think you got my point, If to protest a game nobody buys it and no body pirates it the company is not going to be jumping for joy just because no one pirated the game.

[quote name='sheppyboy2000']
And I say this because DRM wasn't something invented in a secret lab to screw over consumers. DRM was created AS a reaction to theft. And that's the part that annoys me. The pirates DO have a role in why this stuff keeps happening. And as long as the reaction to these moves is "your protections don't bother us, we'll get past them," then the message by action is NOT "we stole because of your DRM" but rather "we steal because we steal." And ultimately the focus is either quit making the kinds of games theives want (kind of like the PC Sims 3 EA focus), or just keep locking stuff down until you find the true lockdown.[/QUOTE]
1.DRM does nothing to stop piracy their is no "lockdown" if there were the would be no piracy.
2.DRM does encourage stealing, it ruins games and spits in gamers faces. spore with is invasive DRM was the most pirated game of all time it sold an estimated 2 million copies, That DRM was removed for sims 3, sims 3 not only was pirated less than spore(sims 3 was only the 2nd most pirated game of 2009) it's estimated to have sold almost 6 million copies and it is still selling. You can see a similar effect with MW2, while there where no DRM problems, inifityward did spit in PC gamers faces and as a result it sold poorly but was the most pirated game of 2009. while other recent fps S.T.A.L.K.E.R TF2 ect... sold much better and had much less piracy.

3.Indy developers with no DRM at all have managed to have retail games that sell 500,000+(it won't surprise me if AC2 sells less than this)


There is piracy on the PC that's a fact and no amount of DRM is going to get a pirate to buy your game.
There are also millions of PC gamers that buy game.
There are also millions of PC gamers that do both.

Sure companies have to deal with piracy and there a 2 ways to do this.

Companies can either antagonize their customers by accusing them of piracy. Show that they mean it by including DRM that cripples the game. Then expect the people they just called thieves not to get the better version of the game, early, with no need to leave the comfort of their home, and with out paying money to people who just spat in their faces.

Or they can accept the fact that some people are going to steal no matter what they to do, show your trust of people by having only cd-keys, reward the paying customers with the best version of they game, and have incentives for the people on the fence to choose the legit version.
Which version do you think will end up in more sales?(hint wombat thinks it is the first option)
 
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Great show guys. Questions for the next show:

(1) Assassin's Creed has been on steep discounts lately ($36 at Amazon, Walmart, etc.), what do you guys think is the rationale for this? The game got rave reviews so they don't need the discount to clean the shelf. Is it because there is a GOTY version coming out?

(2) About Yakuza 3, will you guys recommend it even without the deleted contents and even though Yakuza 4 is coming out in Japan? Shipwreck, can you please do a Yakuza 3 review as well?

Keep up the good work.
 
Good show guys. It made my extended commute a little more tolerable.

When I was talking about the Aaron Greenberg thing, I should have been more clear. I wasn't referring to the sales numbers. I was referring to an interview from Joystiq. Basically, the entire interview is one PR fluff, as are every single interview Greenberg has done in his life. First off, the guy at Joystiq starts off with some lame joke. Then he doesn't press him on any issues when it's ripe for opportunity, such as the original Xbox Live shutdown, Project Shitbox, overpriced Games on Demand, or the Hard Drive issue.

For the Xbox Live shutdown, he could have asked him, "Why did you guys take down the DLC without informing anyone? Once the content is gone, how are people supposed to get it back in case of a system malfunction? Is this how you're going to be handling the 360's digital content once the new Xbox rolls around and is well into its lifespan?" Greenberg says now they're able to bring new experiences to the 360, bla bla bla. What new experiences required shutting down the service and removing all the content online? That would have been the cue for the guy to press Greenberg.

When he discussed the 250GB hard drive, he could have asked Greenberg, "Why are Microsoft hard drives so expensive/are we ever going to see a price drop? Why can't gamers use different HDs like with the PS3? What are 20GB owners supposed to do?" Instead, Greenberg goes on about how great it is that FF13 is having a special edition bundle on the 360. For Shitbox he could have asked him, "Isn't this nothing more than a glorified vision cam? Are we going to see actual games for it?" When Greenberg answers the question about Shitbox, he barely touches on it but instead talks about how they are focusing on their core games, and 2010 is going to be their biggest year yet.

Later on Greenberg says, "And so we're excited. We think that's great for our current owners, we think it's great for the folks that are going to be buying Xbox 360s this year, we think it'll be good for the Live service. Just tons of innovation, tons of new experiences, month after month." Um, tons of innovation month after month? Really? Tons? Like what? Isn't that something they should have pressed him on?

Cheapy, while I know it's the guy's job to promote the system, it's also the journalist's job to question him, not let him spit the company line word for word. It's an interview. That shit wouldn't fly if someone was working for a newspaper and interviewing basically anyone. Why does it get a pass when it comes to games? How are we supposed to get some real answers if they aren't asking any real questions? I know we're not dealing with something major like a war or economic meltdown here, but it would be nice to see something besides PR pieces and softball questions when it comes to game journalism. Especially in the case of the 360's digital distribution and how Microsoft is going to handle it when Xbox 720 comes out, because they haven't exactly set a good precedent.


[quote name='usickenme']
AS2 is really bad because it requires a CONSTANT connection. You lose connection you lost the game. It's dumb. Even in a fully broadband capable house, the internet connection can and does get lost for a multitude of reasons. And if you think Ubi is not looking at this for console games as well, you are kidding yourself.

And let's be honest. The what the people who are okay with this are saying is "I don't play PC games, it doesn't affect me so fuck all of you who do"[/QUOTE]

You bring up a good point. I wouldn't doubt if they had something like that in mind. I'm not a PC guy but I would hate to see that crap come to consoles. I don't think piracy is as big of an issue on consoles as it is on PC, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't attempt something similar down the line with consoles.

[quote name='lebkin']I disagree with Wombat on DRM for one single reason:

DRM only hurts legitimate customers.

It's that simple. Pirates are not affected by DRM in the least. They crack it and get a perfectly functional game. The legitimate customer, who paid $60 bucks for AC2 and needs no punishment, gets hassled and frustrated instead.

And believe it or not, I do play PC games that are 10 years old. I even play PC games that are 20 years old. The longevity of a game is important to me. DRM like in AC2 means that game is worth significantly less, since it is simply a glorified long-term rental.[/QUOTE]

As someone else posted, the game will be unplayable once they close down the servers. Wombat's 10-year-old game argument is weak. It doesn't matter how old it is. If you paid for the product you should be able to use it whenever the hell you want, not until some suit decides it's time to take it out to pasture. We've already seen something like this on consoles with the original Xbox Live shutdown and that content. Whose to say the same thing won't happen to the PS3, 360, and Wii?
 
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Like Mega Man, X doesn't mean ten for Metal Slug X. The X games are just an enhanced version of a Metal Slug game, as the first Metal Slug X was MS2 with extra stuff in its campaign and Metal Slug XX is MS7 with at least a mission mode as its extra content. Like it says on the back of the box, "What beats X?! A shock-wave of XX!!!"

I don't usually have much of an issue with DRM because I have just one PC to play PC games with and I buy 90% of my PC games through Steam, so I don't even have an issue with limited install DRM. Requiring a constant internet is probably the stupidest DRM you could have since there are so many variables that can cause issues that have nothing to do with just the publisher having the servers up whenever you want to play, so that's just punishing the player if they don't have a great internet connection for a single-player game. I do agree that pirates that feel like they're entitled to play every PC game that's released whether they can afford it or not is a huge issue that has caused many PC exclusive developers to move to multiplatform development this generation.

Do you guys actually buy most of the games you own and play? Any time one of you mentions buying a PSN game, the others quickly ask about taking it from their account so they don't have to pay for it. After hearing Shipwreck talk about sending his copy of Heavy Rain around to a bunch of people, Cheapy mentions getting the PSN version of Trine from Shipwreck, so I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on that subject.

Cheapy, since you mentioned that you're interested in seeing how different sites are doing advertisements, what did you think of Kotaku's blog hits counters being sponsored by Dante's Inferno whenever they reached 10k hits? I know they'll change the color scheme of the blog if they're paid to do so along with the traditional banners and such, but I thought it was interesting that that was part of EA's advertising on Kotaku.

If you haven't noticed, I tend to say that the show was good if I have a good amount of comments on the show and decent or less if I don't. Of course, I've often lied about episodes being good when they really weren't so you guys wouldn't feel bad.
Just kidding.
 
Wow. Until now I didn't know what a colossal dochebag Wombat is.

“The people complaining the loudest were going to 'pirate' the game anyway”? Uh...no. People who were going to steal the game have no reason to complain, as the DRM doesn't affect them.

“You have to be online to play World of Warcraft!” Yeah genius, it's an MMO.

“Why'd they even make a PC version?” Gee, I don't know. Why'd they make a PC version? Genius.

EDIT: Greeeeeat. I find out I mistyped this by hearing it quoted on the CAGCast. :lol:

I meant to say "Why'd they make an Xbox version" and mistyped...as in it's a ridiculous question, they made a PC version for the same reason they released it on the Playstation and Xbox.

[quote name='trip1eX']Wombat for the DRM argument win. WoW does the same thing and has millions of games. And you aren't going to be playing the game in 10 years.[/QUOTE]

Wow. They're breeding.
 
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Wombat, I'm usually a fan of yours but for some reason I didn't like your tone towards PC gamers dealing with DRM issues. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your viewpoint, but it sounded like you felt the PC gamers deserve struggling with DRM issues? If that's the case, I disagree.

Piracy is a huge issue, but to require online connectivity for a single player game sounds a little off. Is it a huge deal? Probably not, but why have the need for a constant monitor? I personally don't know how to effectively combat piracy, but at least give the honest player some benefit of the doubt.

It was still a good show and I enjoyed listening to all of your view points. Keep it up.
 
Glad Wombat intervened and saved us from letting Cheapy answer the exact same CAGbag question about smoking that he has addressed on 100 other shows. I'm guessing you just refer to the CAGbag thread when it comes time to pick out questions. Possibly you can spend some prep time on that section of the show and pick out some questions ahead of time. I'm not sure how many times we can stand to hear the same questions answered over and over again on every show.
 
After reading some of the arguments back and forth and listening to the podcast I just wanted to leave my 2 cents.

Pirates are going to find a way around the DRM, so really the only people that are being penalized is the consumer, so I am not even sure what the debate is? You build a higher wall someone is going to build a taller ladder so that others can climb to get over the wall.

Not saying that the backlash of the DRM is to pirate the game is right, but at the same time is it right for the developers who are asking for your money to make you jump through hoops to give it to them? Ok sure, then don't buy the game, but if it’s something you've been looking forward to because you do like the game/genre/story/etc you get to miss an experience that maybe you had been looking forward to because they want to punish pirates who are getting the game for free and not having to jump through the hoops... Not to mention the risk is still relatively low. I don't know if those same people who choose the easier route would of bought the game or not, but I can definitely see why someone choose easy vs. paying for difficulty.

As for the comment from wombat about getting a console if your wanting to play that game. That is a pretty asinine statement considering the times we live in with the economy as it is. Buy a $300 dollar system to play 1 game that costs $60+ (at release). Sure they probably shouldn’t be buying games at all if they’re enduring hardships but we all need a break from our troubled times and $50 dollars is a hell of a lot easier to come by than $360. To continue on this point, what if you have the computer system to play AS2 but cant afford the internet fees to go with a cable or DSL connection, then I guess you're assed out. Lets also not forget, that the servers on ubisofts side is a factor, when they crash, what happens?
 
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