CAGcast #270: Man Down

[quote name='K_G']this route clearly shows they have an audience for the product right out of the gate[/QUOTE]

Yup, 40,000 people want to play it. That is enough of an audience for me to create a game.

You know what else shows that they have an audience? Game sales. How much did Psychonauts sell?
 
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[quote name='XXXplosive1']I agree with Wombat about Double Fine and Kickstarter. This move reeks of desperation from Double Fine.[/QUOTE]

I just don't understand how anyone who considers themselves a gamer and wants to actually support the devs could ever take issue with the Double Fine Kickstarter campaign.

[quote name='XXXplosive1']Brutal Legend was crap and as a result the studio could not get anymore publishing deals. That essentially turned them into a XBLA/PSN games developer that tend to get good reviews from journalists who cannot seperate the Lucas Arts-era Tim Schafer from the one who is churning out mediocre digital games. Despite the critical handjobs these game get, the gaming public is largely apathetic to their output. [/QUOTE]

Brutal Legend wasn't crap. It, and pretty much every game they've made so far scores on average a 7.5 to 8.5 out of 10 (critic and user scores.) That is pretty consistent quality, whether or not one or many of their games wasn't your cup of tea.

And if they could not get anymore publishing deals, why the hell not go to Kickstarter?

[quote name='XXXplosive1']Tim Schafer used the goodwill he earned in the 90's to bait nostalgic gamers who have largely ignored his 00's output to fund his next project. That goes against the spirit of Kickstarter, which is intended for people with no viable way of funding an idea, not established businesses that have pretty much failed over the past ten years and are desperate to remain relevant.[/QUOTE]

Sour grapes. The mere fact that, as of right now, some 40,000 fans kicked in $1.5 million for this project says just how much people believe in the studio and Schafer. Double Fine should be applauded for going directly to the fans, and not being beholden to the publishers who fuck things up every chance they get. I guess they should make a Kickstarter+ which would be only for well known names/studios, so people wouldn't give them shit for taking the spotlight away from the little guys.

Judging from his tweets, Wombat is pretty much just trolling to stir up controversy anyways, which is the epitome of douchiness. At least there's a story you CAN talk about on the CAGcast.
 
I think Double Fine does it just the right way. I remember the whole community cry for a rerelease of "Psychonauts" and they brought it to the Marketplace - guess what really did not so well!!!
The thing is people like to cry out loud a lot if they demand something, but thats all they do. The psychonauts example and the CoD:MW 2 -"Boykott" showed this very well
there is always dumbass manager on the publisher side that will talk into the developer to change this and that in the game or come with " and here .... some online pass.... and here: take this part out of the game - it would make a good download episode".
They ensure their freedom in the design of the game. Also they ensure that there is some interest in this game.
I prefer to crowdfund games over being fucked by developers via online-pass and other cheap tricks to suck more money out of gamers (some overpriced and mostly recycled CoD-MapPacks, anyone ... no... maybe an overpriced statistic system that shows how often you farted in the sweet camperspot). Not to mention the people who bought Batman Arkham City but can not play as Catwoman because they have no Internet-Connection to suck the 200 MB File, while it was always advertised as a part of the game.
 
[quote name='Porksta']Yup, 40,000 people want to play it. That is enough of an audience for me to create a game.

You know what else shows that they have an audience? Game sales. How much did Psychonauts sell?[/QUOTE]

Psychonauts didn't sell well. What does that have to do with Double Fine having fans of point & click adventures games directly fund a new point & click adventure game thru kickstarter?
 
[quote name='Porksta']Here is a good site for XBL whiners:

http://whywasibanned.com/[/QUOTE]


Hilarious website. I am wowed by the ridiculousness of the offenders. Xbox Live Enforcer seems like a fun job for the first four to six weeks. Definitely not something I'd want to do for any long amount of time.

—

In regards to the Double Fine Kickstarter adventures, it's interesting to see a developer kick the publisher out of the equation. Publishers do still have relevancy, tho. What Double Fine raised is nice for a point-and-click adventure game, but they'll still need real money to produce high-level games and for marketing and production costs.

While production costs will plummet when digital distribution takes over, I think marketing costs would have to increase—especially if companies implement systems into the next generation of consoles that discourage and prohibit friends sharing games with friends. Outside of storing games on discs, what the physical copy does is market and get that game out there in the public. People visit places like Wal-Mart and Target, and browse the video game aisle for their kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews. Remove that section, and game titles, not video games, will lose exposure. A good example: The Imagine series. I imagine many not-quite-so-video-game-savvy parents and grandparents bought those games while just browsing the store.

Times will be interesting when video game consoles evolve to where physical media is dropped in favor of digital distribution or streaming. However, that won't be any time soon. There have been recent news polls that state around 40-percent of people in the U.S. don't have broadband internet. I think technology adoption will improve to where the next-next generation will be ready for digital distribution and streaming-based consoles.
 
I think Double Fine's Kickstarter method might hurt their chances of getting traditionally funded in the future.

They'll be giving out thousands of free codes to download this game, as per the arrangement with their Kickstarter donators. Surely these free code downloads are tracked and counted seperately than paid downloads, right? How do they determine if the code user was an early supporter, or just a guy who won the code in a contest?It wouldn't make sense for industry watchers to count 100,000 downloads of a normally for-pay product as the same as 100,000 downloads of a free CAGcast.

And since 40,000 of their small, but loyal, fanbase will be getting their game for free instead of buying a copy straight up, it's going to look like a sales dip in Double Fine's track record.

Plus, publishers might feel slighted by the fact that DF went this route in the first place, and could very well hold a petty grudge against them in the future.

And any disappointment in the final product this time around will definitely be remembered by supporters during DF's next Kickstarter attempt.

So, unless Double Fine really knocks it out of the park and produces a game that redefines the Point & Click genre, their independent funding success could really hurt them down the road.
 
[quote name='Curufinwe']Psychonauts didn't sell well. What does that have to do with Double Fine having fans of point & click adventures games directly fund a new point & click adventure game thru kickstarter?[/QUOTE]

If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.
 
[quote name='meager']I think Double Fine's Kickstarter method might hurt their chances of getting traditionally funded in the future.

They'll be giving out thousands of free codes to download this game, as per the arrangement with their Kickstarter donators. Surely these free code downloads are tracked and counted seperately than paid downloads, right? How do they determine if the code user was an early supporter, or just a guy who won the code in a contest?It wouldn't make sense for industry watchers to count 100,000 downloads of a normally for-pay product as the same as 100,000 downloads of a free CAGcast.
[/QUOTE]

XBLA sales numbers are often not disclosed to the public.....Steam sales figures are also often not disclosed to the public . This isn't anything new in digital distribution. If the game is successful, it will show in the double fine's balance sheets, which future funding sources will be far more concerned with than what the public thinks their sales numbers were.

[quote name='Porksta']If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.[/QUOTE]

If the Wikipedia page it to be believed, in physical retail copies (ie, non-digtial), Psychonauts sold 400K by 2007. That is quite a lot of "nobody". Now was that enough to cover their production costs? Almost assuredly no. But I guess they are the odd man out in the industry, given that absolutely no one else lost money on a game. I mean, come on, everyone bought Shenmue back in the day, didn't they?

But I get it.. In your view, if you can't sell out stadiums, don't even bother to try. Jonathan Coulton should just hang it up already. I mean, $500K a year is just chump change. If you can't beat Transformers at the box office, you shouldn't be even in the film business at all.

And why do you even care in the first place? If you like Double Fine's style of kool aid, and want to buy some more, people can now do that....if you don't, don't buy it and move on....no one is trying to pour it down your throat.
 
I know Cheapy and Wombat wanted more people to talk about the A/B/C/D rating of Internet celebrities. The problem is that fans and casual observers do not define these lists. There are actual lists put out by Hollywood talent agencies that categorize celebrities based on their marketability.

An A list celebrity is someone who is attractive, experienced, well-known, easy to publicize, eloquent, great during interviews, etc. A B list celebrity is one or two attributes removed from an A-Lister and C-Lister 3-4 steps away from an A-Lister. A D-Lister is not easily marketed.

I'm not that hip on Internet celebrities but I'll try to grade the CAGcasters accordingly.

CheapyD - B-list.
Moderately recognized, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, interviews well.

Shipwreck - C-list.
Lacks recognition, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, eloquent, interviews well.

Wombat - D-list.
Lacks recognition, polarizing figure, not always appropriate. (Truth be told, I respect wombat, he's just not very marketable)

My understanding of the celebrity grading system comes from Horace Dediu on the podcast The Critical Path, episode "Below the (belt)line"
 
Wow Wombat, you must have been feeling like hell. I can't remember the last time I heard this much language from you. Get some rest, and I'm with you on the Kickstarted crap. I thought Kickstarter was out there for the little guys with great ideas, but oh well.
 
[quote name='S0LIDARITY']I know Cheapy and Wombat wanted more people to talk about the A/B/C/D rating of Internet celebrities. The problem is that fans and casual observers do not define these lists. There are actual lists put out by Hollywood talent agencies that categorize celebrities based on their marketability.

An A list celebrity is someone who is attractive, experienced, well-known, easy to publicize, eloquent, great during interviews, etc. A B list celebrity is one or two attributes removed from an A-Lister and C-Lister 3-4 steps away from an A-Lister. A D-Lister is not easily marketed.

I'm not that hip on Internet celebrities but I'll try to grade the CAGcasters accordingly.

CheapyD - B-list.
Moderately recognized, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, interviews well.

Shipwreck - C-list.
Lacks recognition, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, eloquent, interviews well.

Wombat - D-list.
Lacks recognition, polarizing figure, not always appropriate. (Truth be told, I respect wombat, he's just not very marketable)

My understanding of the celebrity grading system comes from Horace Dediu on the podcast The Critical Path, episode "Below the (belt)line"[/QUOTE]

really, I am not even fairly attractive?
 
[quote name='Porksta']If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.[/QUOTE]

Enough people have bought recent Double Fine games like Trenched to keep them in business, and enough people wanted a new adventure game from Double Fine that they raised a million dollars in a day on kickstarter. Those are the facts, regardless of your bizarre obsession with a platform game they released seven years ago.
 
Wombat running his mouth about something he knows nothing about? Must be a new episode of the Cagcast.
 
Generally I enjoy listening to the show. But that rant that Wombat had against Kickstarter was a whole lotta nothing.

We should do a kickstarter program to buy a sock for his mouth.
 
Even though I tend to somewhat agree with his point about having the development already paid for gives them little incentive to work hard on the game, Wombat does have a tendency to rant and whine about things far too much.

I will say one thing though, if after releasing 3 games in the past year they don't have $400,000 in equity as a company, it begs the question of their longterm viability as a studio...
 
I would love, LOVE if Sega came to the fans and spent a year or so collecting funds to make a game like Shenmue 3. I think if they did that for 12-18 months they would have enough backing to kick it off. I'd gladly put in $30. I wish more devs or fans would go to companies and help them make the obscure games a small segment of fans really want. Would love another AKI wrestling game,
 
Independent developers like this guy have got more funding thanks to all the extra publicity kickstarter has received.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/564944684/pixel-sand/posts

PixelSand.png
 
Double Fine should be congratulated. After the whole Brutal Legend fiasco, with Activision pulling the funding, the lawsuit and then eventual release by EA to mediocre sales, I'm sure they were in financial trouble. Most developers would have been laying off staff; instead they took an aggressive strategy, split into four separate teams and manage to quickly push out some good quality downloadable games. Still, four downloadable games selling for a total less than one full release doesn't mean they are rolling in cash, so I really don't understand Wombat's attitude.

Most of the game industry works by publishers providing money up front so the developers can pay their staff during the development phase, but then the publisher takes the bulk of the sales revenue. Developers very rarely get to keep enough profit to be able to fund their own future projects. By using Kickstarter Double Fine now have a chance to fund the type of game that no big publisher would touch with a 10 foot pole, and to guarantee employees that they will still have a job when the game is done. And of course they still have motivation; if they give their Kickstarter supporters what they want - involvement in the development process, and a good game - they will have the potential to continue on with this model for years to come.
 
David Jaffe and Kickstarter
http://kotaku.com/5884350/outgoing-...r-kickstarter-funding-for-his-new-project-too
LOL
also my grrl loves to reward my gameplay performance with sexual favors. I get hj/bjs all the time for doing well in MW3, but she would just laugh and kick sand in my face if I 'let her win' a game. He just said that for some free PR. der

oh and EA/DoubleFine, EA is a bunch of douches for not releasing the Brutal Legend patch to fix the corrupt save data after 75% stat completion. I was working on the plat this weekend and couldnt get it and looked online and he has the patch ready to go but EA won't release it. assholes.
 
Coaching girls basketball, sniffing pissy underwear, contracting a stomach virus, and slowly increasing the curse per minute count. Sounds like the plot for Hangover 3.
 
[quote name='Wombat']really, I am not even fairly attractive?[/QUOTE]
I asked my girlfriend to rate attractiveness for me. The best picture I could find for you was
2ri9ee.jpg

she said you looked like a 'nerdy dad.' Upon further review, she came up with 'somewhat attractive.'
 
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[quote name='guardian_owl']

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.[/QUOTE]



[quote name='K_G']No, that would be extremely flawed metaphor. [/QUOTE]

It's a flawed metaphor (analogy) because the dude getting a free meal isn't giving anything back. Double Fine is providing a game. That is the difference.

and who is to say Double Fine doesn't have $$ in the bank? That doesn't mean they have to be opposed to alternative development sources. Wombat wasn't playing "devil's advocate", he was playing dumb.

I personally didn't know anything about kickstarter and now I do. That's a win for everyone.
 
screw the kickstarter controversy, where did Solidarity find that 'nerdy dad' picture? And 'somewhat attractive'? That sounds horrible.

Post that on hotornot.com. In fact, get Ship and Cheapy up there. I want real numbers.
 
[quote name='S0LIDARITY']I asked my girlfriend to rate attractiveness for me. The best picture I could find for you was
2ri9ee.jpg

she said you looked like a 'nerdy dad.' Upon further review, she came up with 'somewhat attractive.'[/QUOTE]

screw the kickstarter controversy, where did Solidarity find this 'nerdy dad' picture? And 'somewhat attractive'? That sounds horrible.

Post that picture on hotornot.com. In fact, get Ship and Cheapy up there. I want real numbers.
 
Yes, Wombat went on at pretty extraordinary length on this show about a topic I'm not even sure he cared about. But this was just a proportionally larger rendition of what he does on most of the episodes; he talks up topics to create interest. In this case, it was a rare misfire.

If he didn't do this, the show would lack momentum. Cheapy, though I like him, works best as a smartass, rhetorical foil, because he basically just dismisses any aspect of gaming/industry news that doesn't jive 100% with his interests...And Shipwreck works best as a dry reporter with the occasional, unexpected interjections of humor.

Every show would be a pretty dull 20 minutes if the 3 weren't on simultaneously. They're great together when they're in synch, but --given that this isn't their day job-- they're not all gonna be cohesive on every single episode. I'm just glad we get what we do from this bunch; it's my favorite podcast, without question.
 
Shipwreck should speak up more often. It sounded like he had something to say about kickstarter, but he keeps getting interrupted and gives up.

Love listening to the CAGcast. Keep up the gaming related debates; interesting to hear even if it is to get us to post feedback.

Cheapy should watch the TV Show "Chuck". Yvonne was in Mass Effect first (ME2 Miranda), and damned if she isn't in her underwear every other episode. Chobot Robot is old news. Wasn't she a failed G4 host like Olivia Munn and Candace Bailey?
 
Wombat's comments on the whole kickstarter thing are bizarre.

For someone who attends industry events, you'd think he'd actually understand more about how the industry works:

-Publishers are the ones who fund the majority of the games and tend to only fund games that they believe will sell / are low risk
-Small studios are small meaning they can usually only work on one game at a time
-The industry is reputation based such that you're really only as good as your last game

So Double Fine asking for money so they can make another game in parallel; a classic adventure game that a publisher would never fund, and actually use the money to make a good game instead of just take it and run shouldn't be seen as greed / a "surprise".
 
I usually like Wombat playing devil's advocate, but Costume Quest and Stacking didn't cost $400k to make. The budget for each were around $2 million according to Tim Schafer and he's made it clear that no publisher would fund a point and click adventure game. That and they rather not have to pander to the wishes of a publisher to make the game more mainstream friendly. The point of the Kickstarter was to make a point and click adventure game and they only wanted to make it if people wanted it.
 
Wombat you're not alone on the Double Fine/Kickstarter issue: Colin Moriarity from the IGN Playstation team shares your opinion on it and also is as strongly opinionated on it as you are.
 
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[quote name='triforcer']I usually like Wombat playing devil's advocate, but Costume Quest and Stacking didn't cost $400k to make. The budget for each were around $2 million according to Tim Schafer and he's made it clear that no publisher would fund a point and click adventure game. That and they rather not have to pander to the wishes of a publisher to make the game more mainstream friendly. The point of the Kickstarter was to make a point and click adventure game and they only wanted to make it if people wanted it.[/QUOTE]

This +1 .. :whee:
 
Heard you guys mention my NBA Elite 11 blog in the cagcast. Just to clarify: yes, I paid $1000 for it. Also added that to the blog since many people asked. Only reason I left it off to begin with was to avoid flames. I'm happy with the buy but it is the internet, after all, and flames tend to happen there.

Also: from the research I did when I was gathering info on the game, there are about 15 known copies out there right now.
 
Cheapie says he wants to give money to support his favorite game by purchasing lame DLC, but I think all he is supporting is more lame DLC.
 
[quote name='Porksta']He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.

I think Double Fine and maybe Valve would be the only companies that could pull this off. Could you imagine Activision doing this for MW4?[/QUOTE]

Valve? Really, Valve? They have more money than God. The only reason they have EA publish their games is to distribute them physically. Other than that, they're almost totally independent.
 
Wombat when you announce you've got a great Tim Schafer story, and you can't share it, that's called bad radio.

Also the weight loss competition should be incorporated with kinect. I know both of you rarely use the device, this could be a good opportunity to use it. I personally recommend the Biggest Loser game. I can even imagine Microsoft taking notice to something like this. Regarding the rules for this bit, it should be simple. My only problem is that i don't trust Wombat or Cheapy to give an honest weigh in. So I'm going to need the both of you to take a picture with your feet on the scale. In the picture i need your weight, a current newspaper and a dime for scale.
 
Wombat when you announce you've got a great Tim Schafer story, and you can't share it, that's called bad radio.

Also the weight loss competition should be incorporated with kinect. I know both of you rarely use the device, this could be a good opportunity to use it. I personally recommend the Biggest Loser game. I can even imagine Microsoft taking notice to something like this. Regarding the rules for this bit, it should be simple. My only problem is that i don't trust Wombat or Cheapy to give an honest weigh in. So I'm going to need the both of you to take a picture with your feet on the scale. In the picture i need your weight, a current newspaper and dime for scale.
 
Hopefully y'all are still reading the show comments thread even though it's been almost a week, because I'd like to remark on something other than Wombat and the Kickstarted thing:

Cheapy D's bizarre inability to understand why some people like sequels to games he doesn't like. He has consistently remarked that the Vita's lineup isn't good because it's just "more of the same" for games that came out on consoles. But let's look at some of his favorite games from 2011: Forza 4 (4th in the series), Skyrim (5th in the series), Saint's Row the Third (3rd in the series). All "more of the same!"

I'm not getting a Vita, and I personally don't want more Wipeout, Hot Shots Golf, etc, etc, but I certainly understand why some people do. Handhelds vs consoles vs simple phone games is a whole other subject which I'll leave alone for now.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Hopefully y'all are still reading the show comments thread even though it's been almost a week, because I'd like to remark on something other than Wombat and the Kickstarted thing:

Cheapy D's bizarre inability to understand why some people like sequels to games he doesn't like. He has consistently remarked that the Vita's lineup isn't good because it's just "more of the same" for games that came out on consoles. But let's look at some of his favorite games from 2011: Forza 4 (4th in the series), Skyrim (5th in the series), Saint's Row the Third (3rd in the series). All "more of the same!"

I'm not getting a Vita, and I personally don't want more Wipeout, Hot Shots Golf, etc, etc, but I certainly understand why some people do. Handhelds vs consoles vs simple phone games is a whole other subject which I'll leave alone for now.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I agree. I hate Modern Warfare and Call of Duty shit, but I don't ask "Why is there a sequel to that dumb game?". I take that back, I do. Four hour campaign and slight updates doesn't sound like a new game.

One bad google search brought up: FFXIII sold 450,000 copies day one and 5,750,000 copies overall. And that's for what some deem as a "Failure to the series". Sure it's not the 9mil of MW3, but it's a different target audience. Just like the Wii has its (huge) audience.

Iphone sucks, bad Wombat!
 
There are three problems with Wombats anti-Double Fine rant:

1) Mid level developers are struggling to survive in general. If they can't get publisher backing then their game generally has little chance nowadays because they get buried in the marketing and press attention AAA budget titles get. This has little to do with the quality of the game or even public interest. It is about mindshare. Those with the money can buy the mindshare. This kickstart move was a means for Doublefine to get some mindshare for their product despite the fact that they lack a publisher or the deep pockets necessary to provide a huge marketing blitz.

2) There are many many people whose motivation to do well has jack shit to do with money. Maybe Wombat finds this hard to believe, but people who follow their passion as career are not really motivated to do their best by money. If this were the case, they all would have become lawyers or doctors rather than musicians, artists, or teachers. They usually value the freedom to follow they passion more than they value money. As a college instructor, I can tell you flat out if you offered one job where I made half the salary but was allowed to structure my own courses and another where I made double but had to follow a set course structure, I would not only take the first option in a heartbeat, I would work a lot harder because I am passionate about my teaching. What is going to drive Schafer and crew is their newly found freedom to make the game they want to make. If you fear a developer half assing a game you should have far more fears about all the greenlit sequels teams are forced to continually make.

3) Regardless of the situition, it is pretty shitty to automatically condemn someone you don't know as a "douche." It is even more shitty to call them this in public without explaining. Maybe you are so naive that when someone tells you something, you assume they aren't trying to put themselves in a positive light, that there is no telephone game exaggeration effect happening, and that what you are being told is representative of the person being talked about. If so, grow up. Most of us learned how stupid, self serving, and false gossip is when we were in middle school. The only people who deserve to be subjected to immature gossip is the type of person who spreads it. So I hope someone out there knows the shittiest thing Wombat ever did and that they then exaggerate it and spread it to thousands of people. He deserves it. I heard he was a douche.
 
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