CAGcast #280: Half CAGcast, Half Mass Effect 3 Spoilercast

[Blue Arcana]

[quote name='Froogin']Great show guys, only errors I noticed in regards to Mass Effect 3 was Shipwreck thinking that you get Ashley if you're male and Kaiden if you're female. It's entirely based on who you picked to survive in the first game. Bioware has always been cool about giving the option to be gay if you so happen to swing that way, so they made a point to give you either option. The other thing was Wombat saying how he would have appreciated a couple lines of dialogue to explain why Cerberus was now shooting at Shepard. During my game I talked to the Elusive man via hologram, not sure if it's game specific. Any-way's, keep it up![/QUOTE]

He was probably thinking of the begining of Dragon Age 2, where

Spoiler

one of your siblings die depending on what class you chose

 

[MSUHitman]

Thanks to Ravenhood for typing up everything I was thinking when listening to the podcast. Guys, would it have hurt to come consult us in the ME 3 thread in the 360 forum if you needed some help with a couple of things before you broadcast? I promise we don't bite, this isn't Bioware Social Network.

 

[MSUHitman]

Like I said on my show's spoilercast, unless Bioware REALLY fixes this up I'm pretty much done with them. First they screw up Dragon Age (and I have defended DA 2 as much as I can on my show and on this site) and now my beloved Mass Effect, which is still one of the major reasons I even own a 360 (back when it was a given this was going to be a MS-only game as MS was publishing it.)

After playing Witcher 2 and seeing the potential in what Tell Tale does with The Walking Dead, I think Bioware is going to look like amateurs' when it comes to choice in games. They started it, but they have now been passed by as EA cracks the whip on their backs to rush out the games too fast.

 

[The Crotch]

[quote name='MSUHitman']After playing Witcher 2 and seeing the potential in what Tell Tale does with The Walking Dead, I think Bioware is going to look like amateurs' when it comes to choice in games. They started it...[/QUOTE]

 

[MSUHitman]

[quote name='The Crotch']

[/QUOTE]

OK who started the whole "choice" concept in videogames or at least promoted the hell out it as its major feature then?

 

[The Crotch]

Well...

1: There is no, "this is where narrative-altering choice came in" game. It is not yes/no, on/off.

2: As far as games that heavily, noticeably involved (relative to other games) narrative-altering choice prior to 1998's Baldur's Gate? 1988's Wasteland, 1997's Fallout, 1992's Ultima Underworld, 1996's Blood Omen...

 

[MSUHitman]

[quote name='The Crotch']Well...

1: There is no, "this is where narrative-altering choice came in" game. It is not yes/no, on/off.

2: As far as games that heavily, noticeably involved (relative to other games) narrative-altering choice prior to 1998's Baldur's Gate? 1988's Wasteland, 1997's Fallout, 1992's Ultima Underworld, 1996's Blood Omen...[/QUOTE]

OK well all those examples except Wasteland are within 1-2 years of BG so at least I'm in the ballpark

This is my PC Gaming history:
Wing Commander 3/4/Prophecy (played 1 on SNES.)
Madden NFL 96 (had to get a RAM upgrade to our newly bought IBM Aptiva just to play this.)
Baldur's Gate
Sims 1
Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3
Bunch of gameshow games (2 Minute Drill, Who Wants to be a Millionaire, Jeopardy, WoF)
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
WWF With Authority! (the online-only WWE card game that became the basis for their physical game Raw Deal)
Black Hawk Down
Battlefield 2
WoW for 2 months when Burning Crusade came out

Needless to say I'm a PC newb so I never heard of Wasteland, never heard of Fallout before Fallout 3, and never got into Ultima considering how bad the NES ports were and there was nowhere to get help since I grew up in a world without internet and strategy guides.

Thanks for correcting me, although can I at least say they're one of the founders of choice in games and still be accurate?

 

[The Crotch]

[quote name='MSUHitman']Thanks for correcting me, although can I at least say they're one of the founders of choice in games and still be accurate?[/QUOTE]
Hm.

It is easy for me to say something stupid and misleading, so I shall take care with my words.

First, when you say "choice", I am interpreting that as "player agency over narrative and characterization". "Equip the sword or equip the bow" is a choice, but I don't think that's the kind of thing you're talking about. Going to the eagle level or the ship level in Golden Axe is a choice, but that's also not what you mean. You have a billion choices to make in a game like X-Com, but again, different kind of choice.

Now, player agency over narrative and characterization is considered one of the defining parts of a WRPG (though there are tons of counter-examples). They have their heart in traditional pen-and-paper RPGs, which allow far more room for player agency than any computer game. Player agency is effectively infinite, limited only by the players themselves and their GM.

With that as their origin, many early RPGs were boring and bland as all . Generic dungeon crawlers and number-crunchers. Though it is impossible for a conventional PC/console game to equal the amount of player agency offered by a "proper RPG", they did eventually start trying to play catch-up. As such, I can't really say that there is such a thing as a "founder" (or group of founders) of "choice in videogames". They're not so much cutting a path through dense forest as they are trying to follow a winding deer-trail.

I think I managed to not anything up in those paragraphs. A bit more in-depth on player agency in Baldur's Gate, its predecessors, contemporaries, and successors in a while. I think I'm-a go get some ice cream right now.


EDIT: God ing damn you Cheapy, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the size of the "" graphic utterly s the appearance and flow of multiple paragraphs. Even though I put proper paragraph breaks in, everything looks like one giant, double-spaced ramble because the "" graphic is a few pixels too tall. Calice d'hostie.

EDIT2: Haha, making another post.

 

[munkishine]

@wombat I hope you don't have to give presentations at work because the start Of the me3 spoiler section was probably the most awkward and unprepared start to a planned discussion I have ever heard. And the jokes were especially bad this week

@cheapyd yo lay off smoking so much of the wacky stuff, mon....everytime ship or wombat mentioned a key element of the story, you were completely lost...."what hammer? There was a hammer???"

@ship wombat is right, from me1 you can choose to save Kaiden or the chick...I know this because I saved kaiden(didn't realize the finality of the decision I was making at the time). Don't worry though, Kaiden is a total douchebag and if I played this series again I was definitely killing his ass off but I will make sure not to romance Ashley based on wombats feedback

 

[munkishine]

@wombat I hope you don't have to give presentations at work because the start Of the me3 spoiler section was probably the most awkward and unprepared start to a planned discussion I have ever heard. And the jokes were especially bad this week

@cheapyd yo lay off smoking so much of the wacky stuff, mon....everytime ship or wombat mentioned a key element of the story, you were completely lost...."what hammer? There was a hammer???"

@ship wombat is right, from me1 you can choose to save Kaiden or the Ashley...I know this because I saved kaiden(didn't realize the finality of the decision I was making at the time). Don't worry though, Kaiden is a total douchebag and if I played this series again I was definitely killing his ass off but I will make sure not to romance Ashley based on wombats feedback

 

[Ravenhood]

Wow, I didn't expect so many people to like the massive post I made those few weeks ago... Thanks to everyone who commented and replied with the kind words about it! It took a lot longer than I expected, and it was already about 2:30am when I started typing everything out, but it was certainly worth it to run through the lore and podcast at the same time.

@usickenme: Hmm... dormant relays could certainly help to expand the story further, if the ending can be taken at face value. I would imagine a lot of time might still pass between ME3 and whatever the next game may be, if it is a sequel.

And I do agree with you on both points, that the Bioware quotes are open to interpretation and that there may not be any real ending, though I sincerely hope that Bioware can clarify some sort of canon material to continue the universe. I just feel like, regardless of what the outcome is, there's still a lot to explain away. I may believe the indoctrination theory right now, but I'm certainly willing to change that stance if I see some concrete information in-game to, without-a-doubt, prove otherwise.

@ZombieJeebus: So, you'd prefer a sequel? What kinds of things do you think they could do with a sequel? Would it be able to take place soon after ME3, or a long time after? Or does that depend on what really happened in the ending?

I guess another good question could be, why not a prequel? There's certainly a lot of content they could expand on, and a lot of things I think I'd love to experience. the Rachni Wars, for one. But any of those previous major battles would be interesting. I've always thought that, for franchises with a large backstory, there's always room for smaller games that expand on what we already know about. Sort of like Resident Evil's Umbrella/Darkside Chronicles, but with more focus on the story and not just reliving previous games.

For Mass Effect, there could be a small release solely focused on fleshing out the details of the major wars, like the war against the Rachni, or between the Humans/Turians, or Quarians/Geth. Maybe finishing off with a greater expansion of the Protheans' fall to the Reapers, showing what some previous evolutions of the races we know looked like, and see more about Prothean life rather than just hearing it from Javik.


I also have a question for anyone out there who'd like to respond. Given the difficulties explaining the ending has proven, which ending theory do you all believe to be true? The indoctrination theory already has a lot of examples and proof to back itself up, even if it all turns out to be false; but for those who believe the ending can be taken at face-value, how do you all explain the things that happened? I've seen a lot of discussion about the ending, and I rarely see people explain their reasons for believing the "at-face-value" idea, so I'd like to hear what you all think.

 

[Baron O Hell]

Just finished the game and was saving this podcast. Loved the song at the end. All in all I thought the ending I got was horrible but fine. I just watched the other endings also and they are horrible and fine also but better than the one I chose. I would have liked to see a update on how every culture and person I touched in this game was doing a few years after the war ended. The endings made it seem like my choices didn't really make a difference in the world. For example I let the queen live twice but her insects were not in the ending at all.