Chrisitianity (or any religion really) is a order of bullshit and chips.

gargus

Banned
Personally Im of the mind that if religion and faith in it make someone happy then by all means, have at it. Im not going to personally dump on someones faith, because its their own choice and that makes freedom of the mind so great is you like or dislike what you chose. I would never single anyone out and Ive known quite a few people who were christian of varying degrees and I never said a word about it because their business. Only time I dont like it is when its forced on me or shoe horned into a conversation. So this isnt about a certain person or individual, its just a blanket rant over religion as a whole.


I guess the simplest format for this is to just go through a small list of major points or topics Id like to discuss because Im going to do alot of bouncing around and in the end it will sound convoluted trying to read it as if it had some sort of flow. So with that out of the way lets just dive right in.


Well to approach a topic such as this we have look back at humanitys past and see how its behaved. Basically humans as individuals are smart but as humanity as a whole they are very stupid, scared, superstitious, self centered, pretentious and mindless cattle needing to be led. All those things birthed religion.


1- I wont go back to far, but Im sure were all familliar with the fact that thousands of years ago we were afraid of everything because we believed a god or demon lived just over a hillside or in a cave. But a thousand years ago we believed that illness was due to posession, or that we had tiny frogs living in our stomachs. Just a couple hundred years ago good, honest, faithfull, god fearing christians would burn their own family members alive because they thought they were witches, or simply throw them off a cliff and say "If your a witch youll fly off if not then youll die a good and pure christian". So obviously were not the brightest species around and certainly scared of anything we dont understand because humans are very superstitious. I mean if we accused someone of being a witch they would be tortured, with the churches consent, until they confessed to being a witch and then were burned alive, if they didnt confess then they just died from the torture, yeah love they neighbor I dont think was intended like that. About 300 years ago we knew the earth was flat and you would fall off it if you sailed to far out. We knew it was impossible to get to the moon. We knew that earth was the center of all exsistence. When you were sick you could be cured of letting of the "bad blood" to get the sickness out. Crazy people had holes drilled in their head to let out the spirits that haunted them. Those are very minor examples but you can see how intelligent we are and it just goes to show that humans only know what they want to know or are told. Who is to say we are any smarter now? Or are we just smarter now because we have a pill that makes your dick hard, cinnamon flavored dental floss or lights in our sneakers? Honestly we havent come that far.


2- Now religion was born long before those times, so does that it mean its as dependable as all those other things we believed? Religion during its inception was a form of control in a rather lawless world. Because how do you control a bunch of wild and superstitious creatures? You tell them that a god is vengeful and will send them to a firey pit of hell ruled by satan for all eternity, does that honestly sound the least bit sane to you? Because honestly if you took say 1,000 people right now that are good and law abiding christians who go to church every week, pay their taxes, dont drink, gamble, have sex other than for to have more children, obey every commandment and never do anything wrong and put them in the exact same life with nothing changed except the lack of christianity do you honestly believe all those people would still be as good, caring, kind, timid as they are now? Hell no they wouldnt, a portion of them may be but the control of religion missing would make them different people. Its still evident today and still used as a means of control by the controlling powers, why else do you think churches are about the only people in the nation that dont pay taxes? Hell its obvious a man wrote the bible, just look at it, its all about men because in those days men were dominant over women virtually everywhere, it wasnt till last 100 years ago that women have started to get out from underneath men where men put them. How many women besides Mary were mentioned in good light at depth in the bible? Hardly any. Bible says woman should be submissive to her husband, a daughter sleeps around her dad should burn her for her indescrestions, man did this, man does that, Eve fucked up the garden of eden and all this other nonsense. Hell the old school catholic church deemed divorce a sin but it was perfectly acceptable by the church for a man to kill his wife instead. 100 years ago in this country it was a sin for a woman to wear less than a bonet on her head, gloves and a dress that went from her neck to her feet as to not show any skin, give me a fucking break. If she did she was a whore, thats just fucking stupid and just men trying to control women because they were afraid if they had their own way they would leave the dickheaded, controlling, asshole men.


3- Holidays, oh shit this is a big one folks. Every single christian holiday is stolen from someone else. Along time ago the christians would stomp on the pagans and do their best to get them out of the picture (Pagans being around alot longer than christians) to make way for themselves and cover up anything pagan related. Even today pagan when used is a negative way of describing someone or something. 1- In the spring the pagan's had their spring festival for the birth of new life and during their festivals eggs and bunnies were used as signs of fertility for the new life. So the christians turned it into Easter which is in the spring, easter uses colored eggs and has a tale of a bunny to keep children interested, is meant for the new life of jesus and incase you didnt notice, easter day changes every year according to the posistion of the fucking moon, if thats not pagan then I dont know what is. Honestly what does coloring eggs, a bunny hiding them in grass for kids to find, and chocalate candy have to do with the birth of jesus? Nothing thats what, its just distorted pagan rituals used for christian means. 2- Halloween was basically a celtic pagan festival called Samhain on March 13 and pope gregory III changed it to October 31st and instead of burning their offerings christians made it so you got treats (yeah another thing to lure kids in and make it seem "less evil" in the eyes of the lord) by going door to door. 3- Christmas Im sorry was something else stolen from the pagans. Every wonder where Yule comes from in christmas and christian songs? Its a pagan word, it was a tree they would decorate outside during the winter equinox, so christians called it a christmas tree and chopped it down to bring inside to put presents under (yet again hooking the children). During the winter equinox pagans would offer gifts to show their thankfullness and hope for a easy winter, now christians made it so kids offer cookies and milk to santa in hopes for presents. I could go on and on but basically all holidays religion based today were stolen and transformed by christians to further their spread of their religion. Thou shalt not steal indeed. Even April Fools day is just the christians making fun of pagans. The pagans new year was April 1st, so when the christians changed their calendar new year to Janurary 1st and the pagans didnt they called it April Fools day because they didnt go along with them. So next time you pull a April Fools day joke on someone remember your partaking in a christian holiday invented to persecute a entire peoples ideals, isnt that like racism kinda? Yeah but christians dont care, they get to dislike anyone they want, more on this shortly.


4- Now we have something that always pissed me off, a bible story. So, we have Abraham a truly devoted, loving, caring man of god who loved his lord more than anything. So satan tells god that if he were stricken that he would denounce gods name. So according to the story god basically gives him boils and sores, kills his family, kills his livestock and knocks down his home and does terrible things to Abraham just to win a bet with satan. Hold the fuck on here, I thought god cherrished us and loved us above all else, why would he hurt people and ruin a faithfull mans good life just to prove a point? Alot of bible stories are like this, if you actually sit and look at them you'll find they arent exactly nice and usually just examples of someone being punished for something or something bad happening because of god or in the name of god.


5- Then you have all the contradictions like "thou shalt not kill", ok so its a commandment and its never ok to ever kill anyone for any reason. Excuse me didnt god just kill Abrahams family? What about all the armies in the name of god that killed thousands in the bible? What about this
"(Levtiticus 21:9 NAB) A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death" what happened to thou shalt not kill?. Or here is a real fucking beauty, "(GE50:13) Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite. "(AC 7:15-16) He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor." Or how about all the times god describes him and is described as loving, gentle, forgiving, caring, fatherfly but at the same time is vengeful, a warrior, jealous and a consumming fire. Thats the tip of iceberg, I could go and on about blatant contradictions.


6- How come the dinosaurs werent mentioned anyway? I mean if he created man in his own image what did he create dinosaurs in since they predate us? His cousin ted? And why is there a 65 billion year gap? Did he create the earth and then sit around playing checkers for 65 billion years before creating us? Bible talks in days. Ill tell you why dinosaurs werent mentioned, because they were here first and died before us, then 65 billion years went by and man came out of the swamps, evolved some and had no idea about dinosaurs because they were buried under the ground to far for us to reach or know about. So man wrote the bible with no understanding of them or the fact the earth was billions of years old already.


7- I have a personal distaste for religion as its sort of a convience that you can make it anything you want and a crutch for the weak minded. Honestly if christianity and the bible are the final word then how come we have dozens of versions of it? I tell you why, its so people who want to believe can pick their own desired level of commitment. On one hand if you want to be a diehard and really taking it to extremes you can be like a snake handler moron or if you just want to be religious enough to get by and have a get out of free jail card when you die you can be a lutheran, or if you want some crazy ideas and more than one wife? Be a mormon. So pick whatever religion you like. But who is really the right one? They all seem to think they are right but they cant all be. And crutches, oh the crutches are just a easy answer for anything for a christian. If a boy dies in a car wreck his mother can say "It was gods will", if the boy is in a car wreck and lives his mom can say "God saved you". You never hear a athlete loosing the big game and saying "Well, god must not have wanted us to win" you only hear god when they win. You can say it was or wasnt gods will to any scenario and it will sound just fine. A woman can have a mutated, cancer ridden baby that takes months to die of agonizing pain while the mother dies delivering it and the husband commits suicide over his grief and some small minded idiot will say "Well it was gods will". Its kind of like how idiots can make anything, no matter how stupid sound plausible if they add at the end "I read it in a article".


8- Humans are anything if vain, we all know it and we all see it everyday in our own lives and the lives of others. We love to feel so important, unique, special, gifted and the center of everything in this world that we invented god so we could say how important we are. Really its no surprise, were at the top of the food chain, created nuclear weapons, gone to the moon and all this other stuff that makes us (atleast in our minds) the most important thing on this planet ever in exsistence. So if were on top how do we feel better about ourselves? We create a imaginary god that lives in heaven and has specially created us just so he can watch us and love us from afar. How much fuller can we get of ourselves than to believe some omnipotent creator of the universe would create all of exsistence just for us to live in? Its the ultimate form of conceitement.


9- I guess god is just a aligator. He must be because if we were created in his own image then why do we share so many indisputeable anatomical and physiological and biological traits with many species of animals on the planet in a ever declining evolutionary scale? Surely if god created us in his own image we would physically be a little further up the scale than we currently are. An octopus has a far more complex anatomy than a human does, roaches are probablly the peak of evolution as we know it as they can survive far more than anyother creature on the planet. Everyone knows we share a great many traits with monkeys and vice versa, we also have organs that have ceased to be functional through evolution like the gal bladder and appendix. We have hair like animals, we have nails on our hands and feet like animals, we have sharp teeth for tearing meat, we have our eyes placed on the front of our heads to be able to see our prey and attack them since were predatory animals, we have fight or flight tendencies like animals, we even have basest sexual desires like animals (and yes even jerry faldwell has them, everyone does even if they dont admit it) because we are animals that happen to be able to build things well. Men have the sex drive of animals, thats why men want to fuck everything that moves is because they are compelled by animal instincts to spread the seed around, thats why women love creature comforts like bath towels, lots of pillows, a comfortable surrounding in their home and such is because they are just doing a form of nesting like animals do. So called "human behavior" can be drawn directly to the same things animals do also we just call it different things so we can be more civilized.



10- "I felt the touch of god", "God called out to me personally and blessed me with his light" or someother comment a person makes when they actually think they have felt god in their lives as a reality and not a metaphor is what is called, the placebo effect. Time and time again you hear about people who have been personally and literally felt god, well, its bullshit because its a placebo. A placebo has been used in medicine for a very long time, its basically where you take a ill person and give them like a little pill thats just colored sugar and tell them it will make them feel better. Simply because in their mind they think it will make them feel better and the mind is a powerfull thing, so they will feel better physically and mentally even though the pill has done nothing at all. Dr's in the 50's would do this alot today. Same thing applies here if a person believes hard enough jesus will reach out to them then they will actually believe its happening and the excitement of will just cement it as even more of a reality to them.


11- Religion breeds the most judgemental and unaccepting people I have ever met, I truly mean that. Religious people on whole will not accept anyone that doesnt agree with them (Ive already shown that above multiple times). If you talk to a atheist and you say your a christian unless they are just an asshole they wont care, but almost everytime that chritisian will start having to talk about jesus and try to convince the other person to agree with them instead of just letting them be without a single word otherwise. Ive gotten into a dozen arguments with relgious douche bags that come to my door and want to talk to me about god and I would say "I dont believe in god please dont bother me again, good day" and they stand there and counter point argue everything I say till I close the door in their face or get really nasty. I recently tried a online dating site and I had one woman message me saying how cute I was, how much she liked my profile and so on but after a couple messages she said she noticed my religion was listed as atheist and asked if it was right, course I said yes because its the truth and she replied "I cant be interested in anyone who doesnt love jesus"........really. And that didnt happen once, it happened 3 times in one month. None of them were willing to even find out my first name or even find out if I was a nice person and obviously didnt really care about who I was as a person, all they knew was that I didnt agree with their religion and thus labeled me unworthy to even send emails to anymore. Personally I wouldnt have cared, if I liked them for who they were as a person inside I wouldnt have cared what their faith was because I liked them. Far as judgemental, no one judges others more than christians. Christian (especially conservative ones) are constantly protesting something and condemming people because of something they believe. I have never seen a aethist or a satan worshipper or a pagan protest a catholic church, or even heard of such a thing because they dont like what they believe. But Ill tell you what I have seen many times, and thats a person dying in a hospital from lung, throat, brain, bone marrow, liver, kidney cancer just pissing and shitting themselves, not able to get out of bed and in constant pain and misery and wanting assisted suicide and some christian fuck getting on the news or calling them to say "You cant do that because god says its a sin and youll go to hell" fuck that, mind your own fucking business. You can also see how much of a bully christians are to how they will walk up to strangers houses to annoy them about jesus with no warning, hell how many times am I going to see christians going to poor countries to convert them to christian? The only reason those people put up with it is because they dont know what the fuck they are talking about but if your starving to death and someone offers you food in exchange for hearing about the lord, youll listen all they want if you get a hamburger out of the deal. Christians are the only people who barge into other countries and have the balls to tell them what to think and believe. Ive never had a budhist confront me at the store or a fucking satanist show up at my door.


After some reflection I am starting to think that christianity was started by pagans. Even the part "Drink this wine for it is my blood" sounds alot like vampirism and "eat this bread for it is my body" sounds pretty close to cannibalism. The two biggest holidays for christians are christmas and easter, meaning jesus was born and died on two of the biggest pagan holidays.


Really I could sit and write a novel on this stuff but thats not the point here and my point isnt to shit on anyones beliefs either, everyone has to make up their own mind in the end whether I agree with it or not its their own choice and Id never look down at someone for deciding what they want or dont want as a principal.


If were ever going to move forward as a species and mentally evolve we need to get rid of this old world, superstitious nonsense, all it does is hamper our minds and hold us back. Yes you can do whatever you like but try thinking for yourself for once, try using your mind and considering all the paths instead of just one set before you from a book of fairy tales. It takes a strong person to make their own choices, live up to their own convictions and be truly open minded about everything. Any simple minded sheep can just go through life believing what they are told to by others.
 
Wouldn't I be a simple minded sheep if I believed you and went through life believing in none of that "superstitious" stuff?
 
[quote name='Rex_Banner']Uhhh....can I get flag or lock for this topic?[/QUOTE]

You haven't been banned yet? What's going on in this forum?

And to the OP, how does believing in a religion make someone weak minded? There have been a lot of religious people that have done more with their lives than you ever will.
 
I only read the end, but Christianity was started by Jews - duh, Jesus was a Jew, his friends were Jews, etc. It wasn't intended to be its own religion so much as a reformation of Judaism. But anyway, the pagan holidays were incorporated later as Christianity spread as a means of converting pagans and consolidating everything.

Well I just went and read the first point and also Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth a couple hundred years before Jesus, so people knew the earth wasn't flat long before 300 years ago (and you realize 300 years ago was the year 1710 right? I guess it sounds like a long time...).
 
Oh man, so much here, and I don't really know if I wanna get into a discussion, because this thread seems more like a way to just piss and rant about religion, but there are a few things I'd like to point out.
[quote name='gargus']Personally Im of the mind that if religion and faith in it make someone happy then by all means, have at it. Im not going to personally dump on someones faith, because its their own choice and that makes freedom of the mind so great is you like or dislike what you chose. I would never single anyone out and Ive known quite a few people who were christian of varying degrees and I never said a word about it because their business. Only time I dont like it is when its forced on me or shoe horned into a conversation. So this isnt about a certain person or individual, its just a blanket rant over religion as a whole.


I guess the simplest format for this is to just go through a small list of major points or topics Id like to discuss because Im going to do alot of bouncing around and in the end it will sound convoluted trying to read it as if it had some sort of flow. So with that out of the way lets just dive right in.


Well to approach a topic such as this we have look back at humanitys past and see how its behaved. Basically humans as individuals are smart but as humanity as a whole they are very stupid, scared, superstitious, self centered, pretentious and mindless cattle needing to be led. All those things birthed religion.


1- I wont go back to far, but Im sure were all familliar with the fact that thousands of years ago we were afraid of everything because we believed a god or demon lived just over a hillside or in a cave. But a thousand years ago we believed that illness was due to posession, or that we had tiny frogs living in our stomachs. Just a couple hundred years ago good, honest, faithfull, god fearing christians would burn their own family members alive because they thought they were witches, or simply throw them off a cliff and say "If your a witch youll fly off if not then youll die a good and pure christian". So obviously were not the brightest species around and certainly scared of anything we dont understand because humans are very superstitious. I mean if we accused someone of being a witch they would be tortured, with the churches consent, until they confessed to being a witch and then were burned alive, if they didnt confess then they just died from the torture, yeah love they neighbor I dont think was intended like that. About 300 years ago we knew the earth was flat and you would fall off it if you sailed to far out. We knew it was impossible to get to the moon. We knew that earth was the center of all exsistence. When you were sick you could be cured of letting of the "bad blood" to get the sickness out. Crazy people had holes drilled in their head to let out the spirits that haunted them. Those are very minor examples but you can see how intelligent we are and it just goes to show that humans only know what they want to know or are told. Who is to say we are any smarter now? Or are we just smarter now because we have a pill that makes your dick hard, cinnamon flavored dental floss or lights in our sneakers? Honestly we havent come that far.
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First, plain and simple, yes, some people had some REALLY DUMB ideas about demons and diseases and what not, but I've not really found where those ideas are supported in the Bible, or any other religions main text. So until I have seen otherwise, I'll go with Humans-1, Religion-0
2- Now religion was born long before those times, so does that it mean its as dependable as all those other things we believed? Religion during its inception was a form of control in a rather lawless world. Because how do you control a bunch of wild and superstitious creatures? You tell them that a god is vengeful and will send them to a firey pit of hell ruled by satan for all eternity, does that honestly sound the least bit sane to you? Because honestly if you took say 1,000 people right now that are good and law abiding christians who go to church every week, pay their taxes, dont drink, gamble, have sex other than for to have more children, obey every commandment and never do anything wrong and put them in the exact same life with nothing changed except the lack of christianity do you honestly believe all those people would still be as good, caring, kind, timid as they are now? Hell no they wouldnt, a portion of them may be but the control of religion missing would make them different people. Its still evident today and still used as a means of control by the controlling powers, why else do you think churches are about the only people in the nation that dont pay taxes? Hell its obvious a man wrote the bible, just look at it, its all about men because in those days men were dominant over women virtually everywhere, it wasnt till last 100 years ago that women have started to get out from underneath men where men put them. How many women besides Mary were mentioned in good light at depth in the bible? Hardly any. Bible says woman should be submissive to her husband, a daughter sleeps around her dad should burn her for her indescrestions, man did this, man does that, Eve fucked up the garden of eden and all this other nonsense. Hell the old school catholic church deemed divorce a sin but it was perfectly acceptable by the church for a man to kill his wife instead. 100 years ago in this country it was a sin for a woman to wear less than a bonet on her head, gloves and a dress that went from her neck to her feet as to not show any skin, give me a fucking break. If she did she was a whore, thats just fucking stupid and just men trying to control women because they were afraid if they had their own way they would leave the dickheaded, controlling, asshole men.
Ruth and Esther both have books written about or by them, which was something that would have been unheard of in the times of the OT. Deborah was a leader over the entire nation of Israel(Judges). Rahab's story was written in Joshua 2, and she is also mentioned in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. Oh yeah, she even made it into the geneology of Jesus, Matthew 1. Pretty good for a prostitute. In the NT, Priscilla was a large help to Paul in his ministry, and mentioned more than once by name with her husband Aquilla.
3- Holidays, oh shit this is a big one folks. Every single christian holiday is stolen from someone else. Along time ago the christians would stomp on the pagans and do their best to get them out of the picture (Pagans being around alot longer than christians) to make way for themselves and cover up anything pagan related. Even today pagan when used is a negative way of describing someone or something. 1- In the spring the pagan's had their spring festival for the birth of new life and during their festivals eggs and bunnies were used as signs of fertility for the new life. So the christians turned it into Easter which is in the spring, easter uses colored eggs and has a tale of a bunny to keep children interested, is meant for the new life of jesus and incase you didnt notice, easter day changes every year according to the posistion of the fucking moon, if thats not pagan then I dont know what is. Honestly what does coloring eggs, a bunny hiding them in grass for kids to find, and chocalate candy have to do with the birth of jesus? Nothing thats what, its just distorted pagan rituals used for christian means. 2- Halloween was basically a celtic pagan festival called Samhain on March 13 and pope gregory III changed it to October 31st and instead of burning their offerings christians made it so you got treats (yeah another thing to lure kids in and make it seem "less evil" in the eyes of the lord) by going door to door. 3- Christmas Im sorry was something else stolen from the pagans. Every wonder where Yule comes from in christmas and christian songs? Its a pagan word, it was a tree they would decorate outside during the winter equinox, so christians called it a christmas tree and chopped it down to bring inside to put presents under (yet again hooking the children). During the winter equinox pagans would offer gifts to show their thankfullness and hope for a easy winter, now christians made it so kids offer cookies and milk to santa in hopes for presents. I could go on and on but basically all holidays religion based today were stolen and transformed by christians to further their spread of their religion. Thou shalt not steal indeed. Even April Fools day is just the christians making fun of pagans. The pagans new year was April 1st, so when the christians changed their calendar new year to Janurary 1st and the pagans didnt they called it April Fools day because they didnt go along with them. So next time you pull a April Fools day joke on someone remember your partaking in a christian holiday invented to persecute a entire peoples ideals, isnt that like racism kinda? Yeah but christians dont care, they get to dislike anyone they want, more on this shortly.
Not gonna lie, didn't really read this one that muchAlright, now I'll point out a few things since I have a bit more time. First off, what do the Easter bunny and colored eggs and chocolate have to do with the birth of Jesus? Well, Easter doesn't celebrate Jesus' birth, but his resurrection. That aside, you are right, those things have nothing to do with Jesus' res., yet it's not like the Bible says "To remember the resurrection of our Christ, you should hide eggs for children." Once again, that's a man-made thing, not a Christian belief.
Also, I think it was mentioned that the time of the celebration is derived from the time of Passover, which is when the events of Jesus death/burial/resurrection allegedly took place. Passover is a Jewish tradition, which is why Jesus was in Jerusalem to begin with. So the timing of celebrating the event of Jesus' resurrection is more in line with the Jewish Passover. I suppose you are right about the bunnies and eggs being a Pagan thing, never really looked into it, don't really care, because I don't connect bunnies/eggs with cross/resurrection.
Also, most of the traditions you are referring to(eggs, bunnies, xmas trees, Santa) are not Biblical doctrine, just man-made stuff. So perhaps man did steal them from Pagan traditions, I don't know. Once again, don't really care, because for me, as a Christian, Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus, and Easter is about his resurrection from the grave. Our culture is the one guilty of changing the focus to those other things.
So I guess chalk another one up to humans, not Christianity.
4- Now we have something that always pissed me off, a bible story. So, we have Abraham a truly devoted, loving, caring man of god who loved his lord more than anything. So satan tells god that if he were stricken that he would denounce gods name. So according to the story god basically gives him boils and sores, kills his family, kills his livestock and knocks down his home and does terrible things to Abraham just to win a bet with satan. Hold the fuck on here, I thought god cherrished us and loved us above all else, why would he hurt people and ruin a faithfull mans good life just to prove a point? Alot of bible stories are like this, if you actually sit and look at them you'll find they arent exactly nice and usually just examples of someone being punished for something or something bad happening because of god or in the name of god.
You confusing Abraham with Job? Abraham was the man who was ready to sacrifice his son because God commanded him to, but God provided the sacrificial lamb at the 11th hour. Job is the one who went through the trials you wrote. I could also point out how Satan is the one who caused all the things to happen, God simply allowed Satan to. And then in the end, Job got back all his stuff back x2. Twice the livestock, money, land, family.
5- Then you have all the contradictions like "thou shalt not kill", ok so its a commandment and its never ok to ever kill anyone for any reason. Excuse me didnt god just kill Abrahams family? What about all the armies in the name of god that killed thousands in the bible? What about this
"(Levtiticus 21:9 NAB) A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death" what happened to thou shalt not kill?. Or here is a real fucking beauty, "(GE50:13) Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite. "(AC 7:15-16) He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor." Or how about all the times god describes him and is described as loving, gentle, forgiving, caring, fatherfly but at the same time is vengeful, a warrior, jealous and a consumming fire. Thats the tip of iceberg, I could go and on about blatant contradictions.
Armies of God that killed other nations? Those were nations that were hellbent on destroying the Hebrews. So it was kill or be killed.
As for that Genesis 50:13 quote, not sure what you are trying to prove with that. I'm pretty sure Jacob simply died of old age, and the passage you referenced was simply his family burying him. Is there something wrong with that?
6- How come the dinosaurs werent mentioned anyway? I mean if he created man in his own image what did he create dinosaurs in since they predate us? His cousin ted? And why is there a 65 billion year gap? Did he create the earth and then sit around playing checkers for 65 billion years before creating us? Bible talks in days. Ill tell you why dinosaurs werent mentioned, because they were here first and died before us, then 65 billion years went by and man came out of the swamps, evolved some and had no idea about dinosaurs because they were buried under the ground to far for us to reach or know about. So man wrote the bible with no understanding of them or the fact the earth was billions of years old already.
7- I have a personal distaste for religion as its sort of a convience that you can make it anything you want and a crutch for the weak minded. Honestly if christianity and the bible are the final word then how come we have dozens of versions of it? I tell you why, its so people who want to believe can pick their own desired level of commitment. On one hand if you want to be a diehard and really taking it to extremes you can be like a snake handler moron or if you just want to be religious enough to get by and have a get out of free jail card when you die you can be a lutheran, or if you want some crazy ideas and more than one wife? Be a mormon. So pick whatever religion you like. But who is really the right one? They all seem to think they are right but they cant all be. And crutches, oh the crutches are just a easy answer for anything for a christian. If a boy dies in a car wreck his mother can say "It was gods will", if the boy is in a car wreck and lives his mom can say "God saved you". You never hear a athlete loosing the big game and saying "Well, god must not have wanted us to win" you only hear god when they win. You can say it was or wasnt gods will to any scenario and it will sound just fine. A woman can have a mutated, cancer ridden baby that takes months to die of agonizing pain while the mother dies delivering it and the husband commits suicide over his grief and some small minded idiot will say "Well it was gods will". Its kind of like how idiots can make anything, no matter how stupid sound plausible if they add at the end "I read it in a article".


8- Humans are anything if vain, we all know it and we all see it everyday in our own lives and the lives of others. We love to feel so important, unique, special, gifted and the center of everything in this world that we invented god so we could say how important we are. Really its no surprise, were at the top of the food chain, created nuclear weapons, gone to the moon and all this other stuff that makes us (atleast in our minds) the most important thing on this planet ever in exsistence. So if were on top how do we feel better about ourselves? We create a imaginary god that lives in heaven and has specially created us just so he can watch us and love us from afar. How much fuller can we get of ourselves than to believe some omnipotent creator of the universe would create all of exsistence just for us to live in? Its the ultimate form of conceitement.


9- I guess god is just a aligator. He must be because if we were created in his own image then why do we share so many indisputeable anatomical and physiological and biological traits with many species of animals on the planet in a ever declining evolutionary scale? Surely if god created us in his own image we would physically be a little further up the scale than we currently are. An octopus has a far more complex anatomy than a human does, roaches are probablly the peak of evolution as we know it as they can survive far more than anyother creature on the planet. Everyone knows we share a great many traits with monkeys and vice versa, we also have organs that have ceased to be functional through evolution like the gal bladder and appendix. We have hair like animals, we have nails on our hands and feet like animals, we have sharp teeth for tearing meat, we have our eyes placed on the front of our heads to be able to see our prey and attack them since were predatory animals, we have fight or flight tendencies like animals, we even have basest sexual desires like animals (and yes even jerry faldwell has them, everyone does even if they dont admit it) because we are animals that happen to be able to build things well. Men have the sex drive of animals, thats why men want to fuck everything that moves is because they are compelled by animal instincts to spread the seed around, thats why women love creature comforts like bath towels, lots of pillows, a comfortable surrounding in their home and such is because they are just doing a form of nesting like animals do. So called "human behavior" can be drawn directly to the same things animals do also we just call it different things so we can be more civilized.



10- "I felt the touch of god", "God called out to me personally and blessed me with his light" or someother comment a person makes when they actually think they have felt god in their lives as a reality and not a metaphor is what is called, the placebo effect. Time and time again you hear about people who have been personally and literally felt god, well, its bullshit because its a placebo. A placebo has been used in medicine for a very long time, its basically where you take a ill person and give them like a little pill thats just colored sugar and tell them it will make them feel better. Simply because in their mind they think it will make them feel better and the mind is a powerfull thing, so they will feel better physically and mentally even though the pill has done nothing at all. Dr's in the 50's would do this alot today. Same thing applies here if a person believes hard enough jesus will reach out to them then they will actually believe its happening and the excitement of will just cement it as even more of a reality to them.


11- Religion breeds the most judgemental and unaccepting people I have ever met, I truly mean that. Religious people on whole will not accept anyone that doesnt agree with them (Ive already shown that above multiple times). If you talk to a atheist and you say your a christian unless they are just an asshole they wont care, but almost everytime that chritisian will start having to talk about jesus and try to convince the other person to agree with them instead of just letting them be without a single word otherwise. Ive gotten into a dozen arguments with relgious douche bags that come to my door and want to talk to me about god and I would say "I dont believe in god please dont bother me again, good day" and they stand there and counter point argue everything I say till I close the door in their face or get really nasty. I recently tried a online dating site and I had one woman message me saying how cute I was, how much she liked my profile and so on but after a couple messages she said she noticed my religion was listed as atheist and asked if it was right, course I said yes because its the truth and she replied "I cant be interested in anyone who doesnt love jesus"........really. And that didnt happen once, it happened 3 times in one month. None of them were willing to even find out my first name or even find out if I was a nice person and obviously didnt really care about who I was as a person, all they knew was that I didnt agree with their religion and thus labeled me unworthy to even send emails to anymore. Personally I wouldnt have cared, if I liked them for who they were as a person inside I wouldnt have cared what their faith was because I liked them. Far as judgemental, no one judges others more than christians. Christian (especially conservative ones) are constantly protesting something and condemming people because of something they believe. I have never seen a aethist or a satan worshipper or a pagan protest a catholic church, or even heard of such a thing because they dont like what they believe. But Ill tell you what I have seen many times, and thats a person dying in a hospital from lung, throat, brain, bone marrow, liver, kidney cancer just pissing and shitting themselves, not able to get out of bed and in constant pain and misery and wanting assisted suicide and some christian fuck getting on the news or calling them to say "You cant do that because god says its a sin and youll go to hell" fuck that, mind your own fucking business. You can also see how much of a bully christians are to how they will walk up to strangers houses to annoy them about jesus with no warning, hell how many times am I going to see christians going to poor countries to convert them to christian? The only reason those people put up with it is because they dont know what the fuck they are talking about but if your starving to death and someone offers you food in exchange for hearing about the lord, youll listen all they want if you get a hamburger out of the deal. Christians are the only people who barge into other countries and have the balls to tell them what to think and believe. Ive never had a budhist confront me at the store or a fucking satanist show up at my door.


After some reflection I am starting to think that christianity was started by pagans. Even the part "Drink this wine for it is my blood" sounds alot like vampirism and "eat this bread for it is my body" sounds pretty close to cannibalism. The two biggest holidays for christians are christmas and easter, meaning jesus was born and died on two of the biggest pagan holidays.


Really I could sit and write a novel on this stuff but thats not the point here and my point isnt to shit on anyones beliefs either, everyone has to make up their own mind in the end whether I agree with it or not its their own choice and Id never look down at someone for deciding what they want or dont want as a principal.


If were ever going to move forward as a species and mentally evolve we need to get rid of this old world, superstitious nonsense, all it does is hamper our minds and hold us back. Yes you can do whatever you like but try thinking for yourself for once, try using your mind and considering all the paths instead of just one set before you from a book of fairy tales. It takes a strong person to make their own choices, live up to their own convictions and be truly open minded about everything. Any simple minded sheep can just go through life believing what they are told to by others.
i'm actually just gonna stop there because i've had about enough.
 
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I've been an atheist for a few years now and have really delved into the arguments for god/gods in the past 12 months..and came to the conclusion that there is literally NO sound argument out there for the existence of any supernatural/magical phenomenon. I was always hesitant to get into debates before out of fear of being Pwned..but every time I've debated a theist over the past few months, they end up presenting the same fallacious arguments that can be easily refuted. And once the refutation is offered, they end up falling back on some unfalsifiable "proof" for their beliefs like "personal experience"..or secondhand anecdotes from people who claim to have experienced "miracles". Needless to say this stuff would not stand up in a court of law, and would count for less than nothing in the realm of science.. I'm really astonished that people are willing to come to hold such extraordinary beliefs for the flimsiest of reasons. They don't come to their faith through any process of reason. It ultimately boils down to a combination of fear and emotionalism.

P.S. You will probably enjoy this gargus. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6851159367044940771#

Just watch Hitchens' opening statement (15 minutes, from 8:00-23:00). I challenge theists here to watch it as well. I'm sure he will bring up a few points you may not have considered before. ;)
 
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Be careful about debating the religious. It's an important part of their lives and shaking the tree just to be an asshole is a karmically dangerous thing.

Let people believe what they want as long as they aren't in your face about it.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Be careful about debating the religious. It's an important part of their lives and shaking the tree just to be an asshole is a karmically dangerous thing.[/QUOTE]
I also enjoy debating people who believe in silly things like karma. ;)

Beliefs inevitably influence actions speed..That's why the issue is so important, but I agree, if people simply have a personal belief and don't seek to impose it on others, we should have a live and let live attitude. I'm not going out of my way to "deconvert" people..nor are most folks. You don't see atheists riding bicycles around town and preaching to believers do you. :) If people visit a forum and want to discuss/debate the issue however, the gloves come off. The days of passive respect for religious claims are over. Religious people make truth claims about how the world operates..and this isn't simply "a matter of opinion". If they want to assert that their beliefs are true without rational justifications, they rightly deserve to be ridiculed.
 
You should check out a channel called "Thunderf00t" on Youtube if you haven't already. His videos always put religion to shame and quite humorous.
 
Are you sure it wasn't Job not Abraham who was tested by Satan? I believe it was Abraham who was asked to sacrifice his son. I might be wrong though since it's been a while.

Anyways I read the whole thing and agree with you. Problem though, if everyone agreed with you that there was no god, the world would be absolutely chaos. So maybe it's for the greater good that at least a majority of people believe in some form of "karma/god" to keep the world from destroying itself.
 
[quote name='camoor']Good for you gargus, you're thinking for yourself.

However you are really speaking about Christianity, not religion in general.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying that people who have searched high and low for truth and come to the conclusion that Christianity is the real deal, they aren't really thinking for themselves?

And most of his complaints were regarding PEOPLE who are Christians, not the basic claims of Christianity. And no one seems to be pointing out that when he actually does refer to the Bible, he screws up the facts almost everytime or complete seems to talk out of his ass.

I love how if this were a political rant by a Republican, and they had as many errors in their thread as Gargus did, they would have been chewed to shreds by now. Even if a Christian wrote and had this many errors, the same would happen.

Yet this guy gets an "attaboy" from people and his mistakes are ignored by everyone but myself, and recently DV8?
 
[quote name='myl0r']Yet this guy gets an "attaboy" from people and his mistakes are ignored by everyone but myself, and recently DV8?[/QUOTE]

Are you really going to criticize him for flipping the names? The Abraham story reflects no better on god.. It makes him look like a monster who enjoys putting his little pets in traumatic situations just to see if they pass the test. What kind of an asshole deity does this? What kind of deity demands unswerving obedience and worship from his creation? Certainly not one worthy of worship. Any father who commanded his child to kill the family pet in order to prove his devotion would probably be arrested..yet this event is considered noble and is celebrated every year by people from all three Abrahamic religions. It's sick.
 
One of my favorite topics, but I am not going to tackle the OP because that wall of text will get me fired.


[quote name='Capitalizt']I've been an atheist for a few years now and have really delved into the arguments for god/gods in the past 12 months..and came to the conclusion that there is literally NO sound argument out there for the existence of any supernatural/magical phenomenon. I was always hesitant to get into debates before out of fear of being Pwned..but every time I've debated a theist over the past few months, they end up presenting the same fallacious arguments that can be easily refuted. And once the refutation is offered, they end up falling back on some unfalsifiable "proof" for their beliefs like "personal experience"..or secondhand anecdotes from people who claim to have experienced "miracles". Needless to say this stuff would not stand up in a court of law, and would count for less than nothing in the realm of science.. I'm really astonished that people are willing to come to hold such extraordinary beliefs for the flimsiest of reasons. They don't come to their faith through any process of reason. It ultimately boils down to a combination of fear and emotionalism.
[/QUOTE]

Classic atheist argument.
I have many atheist friends and we argue all the time. I've heard it all. In my view, there is no right and wrong in this argument - so the only thing worth discussing is the argument itself.

This is how I now view the classical differences between the spiritual and the atheist:

Really what it comes down to, and what you verify above, is that it's about the five senses every human was born with. Atheists essentially think that if you can't verify something to another humans five senses in a repeatable fashion then it didn't exist, didn't happen, or at the very least doesn't matter.

The "believers", for lack of a better term, think the opposite; if you have a profoundly spiritual experience - hell, if you met with supernatural beings for example - what do you do with that experience?

The Atheist has that experience and he has to conclude he hallucinated, because it can't be reproduced or proven to another humans five senses. Thus, it holds no value without peer-review.

The spiritual person has that experience and he values it, treasures it, helps others with it (hopefully) and proof of it is irrelevant to it's value.

This is the very essence of what faith is and means to different minds; it's the core argument of whether or not an experience can and should be valued, if it can't be reproduced or proven.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Are you really going to criticize him for flipping the names? The Abraham story reflects no better on god.. It makes him look like a monster who enjoys putting his little pets in traumatic situations just to see if they pass the test. What kind of an asshole deity does this? What kind of deity demands unswerving obedience and worship from his creation? Certainly not one worthy of worship. Any father who commanded his child to kill the family pet in order to prove his devotion would probably be arrested..yet this event is considered noble and is celebrated every year by people from all three Abrahamic religions. It's sick.[/QUOTE]
That is not the only instance that I pointed out. Yes, he mistook Abraham for Job, twice. I'll be honest, this is a BIG topic to discuss alone. God was testing Abraham, the man he would go on to build the Hebrew nation upon. He was testing Abraham to see if Abraham's devotion to God would stand firm in the face of what God provided to him, a son. The story also shows that God did NOT have Isaac murdered, but instead provided the sacrifice at the last moment.
(Side note-is this a story I struggle with as a Christian? Somewhat. I don't completely understand it, because it does make God look bad to some people. But God tested Abraham and Abraham proved his reliance upon God to provide. I wrestle with it, but in the grand scheme of the Bible, which I believe to be inerrant, I see that I can trust God. While I don't understand his ways always, I know that his ways are always working for the best. My personal belief)
He also was dead wrong when he said that there were no women written about in a positive light in the Bible, when I pointed out several that played a significant role.
He also quoted Genesis 50:13, and made absolutely no sense with it. He made it out to be a terrible verse, when really it just documents that Jacob had died(of natural causes) and his family was burying him, which is a custom still practiced today.
3 times he referenced to the Bible, and he screwed up something in each time. That was my point. He has shown a lack of information in a book/religion he is claiming is bullshit.
And on that note, I stand by my claim. If a republican or even Christian came in and made claims about Dems/another religion and called it bullshit, yet made this many errors, that person would be mocked to the point of no return. Yet Gargus gets a free pass?

Also, this event is celebrated every year by all 3 Abrahamic faiths? As a Christian, I can't think of anytime in the year where we have a celebration to this event.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
This is the very essence of what faith is and means to different minds; it's the core argument of whether or not an experience can and should be valued, if it can't be reproduced or proven.[/QUOTE]

No, the real essence here is what counts as knowledge..and what is a valid means of acquiring knowledge. Applying reason and critical thinking to observation and experiment is a proven method of discovery. It what has pulled us out of the dark ages. "Faith", revelation, or other magical claims have failed miserably at the same task.

The reality is that we have NO examples of a consciousness existing apart from matter. Theists have yet to come even remotely close to showing that something like a disembodied consciousness can exist..and are about a billion miles away from showing that such a consciousness can (or ever has) suspended the laws of nature by MAGIC. Believers take these propositions on "FAITH", while nonbelievers reject the concept of faith entirely as a means of acquiring knowledge. Faith and meditation are not ways of acquiring knowledge about the external world..no matter how much some wish it to be otherwise. If they were, every person in every competing religious denomination on earth would have an equal claim on truth, given that they have faith in their beliefs just as strongly as Christians do. Yet what do we see when we try and mash these together? Conflict..contradiction..and proven FALSEHOODS, all being preached as if they were knowledge.

Every country on the planet uses the same physics..the same mathematics..the same biology..all for good reason, because science and reason converges on TRUTH, regardless of cultural differences. Faith on the other hand builds up permanent walls of division. Every religious person on earth prays, meditates, reads their holy books, and has the same "personal experiences" described by Christians, yet they all come to different conclusions. The truth is we have no reason to think these experiences are anything more than psychological events caused by electrical signals shooting through a 3 pound blob of chemicals in the human head. Bottom line: Believers have yet to demonstrate the epistemological credentials of faith. They have yet to prove that faith is a valid means of learning anything about anything. They have given no sound reason for anyone to believe in god/gods and have failed to demonstrate there is a method other than reasoned skepticism for discovering the nature of reality and discerning true claims from false claims. Until they are able to demonstrate the validity of faith/meditation as a means of acquiring new knowledge about the world, everything that they take on faith can be considered irrational and justly dismissed.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Really what it comes down to, and what you verify above, is that it's about the five senses every human was born with. Atheists essentially think that if you can't verify something to another humans five senses in a repeatable fashion then it didn't exist, didn't happen, or at the very least doesn't matter.

The "believers", for lack of a better term, think the opposite; if you have a profoundly spiritual experience - hell, if you met with supernatural beings for example - what do you do with that experience?

The Atheist has that experience and he has to conclude he hallucinated, because it can't be reproduced or proven to another humans five senses. Thus, it holds no value without peer-review.

The spiritual person has that experience and he values it, treasures it, helps others with it (hopefully) and proof of it is irrelevant to it's value.

This is the very essence of what faith is and means to different minds; it's the core argument of whether or not an experience can and should be valued, if it can't be reproduced or proven.[/QUOTE]

Not quite. If something isn't explicable then it isn't explicable. The supernatural is an explanation and explanations require evidence. You don't conclude that something is a hallucination because "it can't be reproduced or proven to another humans five senses" you only conclude that something is a hallucination if it can be replicated as a hallucination, which would give support to that explanation.

Whether you value an experience that you can or can't explain is irrelevant to what it is. Obviously you can value many experiences that are entirely explicable naturally. But when trying to explain something you have to have a foundation to do so.
 
[quote name='myl0r']He was testing Abraham to see if Abraham's devotion to God would stand firm in the face of what God provided to him, a son.[/QUOTE]
God is supposedly omniscient..which means he knows everything about everything, past present and future. Surely he could have looked into Abraham's mind and known he was loyal. The fact that he needs to test people and that he frequently descends to earth to "investigate" what is going on would seem to contradict this. I've read a few passages where god is talking directly to people in an effort to obtain information.. The first one that comes to mind comes just before the story of Balaam and his talking donkey (lol). http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+22&version=NIV Before the donkey starts speaking, God visits Balaam and says "Who are these men? Why have you brought them here?" I gotta wonder..What's wrong..Did god not know who the men were? He is a timeless and infinitely wise being who created the entire universe, yet he still needs to ask questions like this? Stuff like this is a clear indication that the god character in the bible is not omniscient. Yet this is a core doctrine of christianity..just one of many contradictions in your "inerrant" book.

God did NOT have Isaac murdered, but instead provided the sacrifice at the last moment.
Well golfclap for god. :applause: He only allowed the boy to be traumatized for life by letting the father raise a knife over his heart..how merciful. Too bad God didn't intervene in the story of Jephthah. He was obviously looking forward to the burnt human sacrifice of a young girl and did not intervene in that case. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%2011:31,Judges%2011:34-40&version=NLT

Also, this event is celebrated every year by all 3 Abrahamic faiths? As a Christian, I can't think of anytime in the year where we have a celebration to this event.
Of course, America and Europe are a bit too civilized for this event. We have grown out of the more crude aspects of the religion..but orthodox Jews and many muslim sects in the middle east still celebrate it every year.
 
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[quote name='myl0r']So you are saying that people who have searched high and low for truth and come to the conclusion that Christianity is the real deal, they aren't really thinking for themselves?

And most of his complaints were regarding PEOPLE who are Christians, not the basic claims of Christianity. And no one seems to be pointing out that when he actually does refer to the Bible, he screws up the facts almost everytime or complete seems to talk out of his ass.

I love how if this were a political rant by a Republican, and they had as many errors in their thread as Gargus did, they would have been chewed to shreds by now. Even if a Christian wrote and had this many errors, the same would happen.

Yet this guy gets an "attaboy" from people and his mistakes are ignored by everyone but myself, and recently DV8?[/QUOTE]

Well it was a rant, he did warn you. It shows alot more thought then anything anyone has refuted him with (including hurp durp I luv Jebus hurp durp)
 
I don't want toge t into some big argument here, and this could certainly turn into it. Religion seem almost cute to me in a way, in the way that we tell children stories about how babies are born because they can't fathom the truth, to me religion is like that, but for adults. No one has ever been able to explain to me how an adult believing in Santa Claus is ridiculous, but believing in God is perfectly normal. You realize there is as much proof one exists as the other, right? Oh or the way that a preacher saying he's communicated with God is a holy thing, but the dude on the street corner saying the same thing is crazy.

It's all a bunch of hypocritical nonsense. It's like what I said about cults in another thread, the only difference between a cult and religion is that the religion is accepted by a large enough number of people to be considered legitimate. Get enough people to join a cult and poof, religion. Yet most people would think anyone in a cult is crazy.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']I think it shows a lot more thought then anything anyone has refuted him with because no one cares to argue about this topic.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Christianity is like Apple Jacks.

Why do they like blind faith? Who knows - they just do!
 
[quote name='Clak']I don't want toge t into some big argument here, and this could certainly turn into it. Religion seem almost cute to me in a way, in the way that we tell children stories about how babies are born because they can't fathom the truth, to me religion is like that, but for adults. No one has ever been able to explain to me how an adult believing in Santa Claus is ridiculous, but believing in God is perfectly normal. You realize there is as much proof one exists as the other, right? Oh or the way that a preacher saying he's communicated with God is a holy thing, but the dude on the street corner saying the same thing is crazy.

It's all a bunch of hypocritical nonsense. It's like what I said about cults in another thread, the only difference between a cult and religion is that the religion is accepted by a large enough number of people to be considered legitimate. Get enough people to join a cult and poof, religion. Yet most people would think anyone in a cult is crazy.[/QUOTE]

Like I keep saying, when people say religion here they mean Abrahamic religion. Don't be so ethnocentric.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']pretty much.

why do you care what other people decide is their truth?[/QUOTE]

I'm always interested in how others perceive the world. As Nietzsche said "we are all better artists than we realize". However personally I wouldn't quite go that far, I find those with rigid views to be awesomely boring.

I also found Mylor's response humorous, he is the classic dogmatist. The guy may be able to quote the Christian bible but he can't make a convincing arguement to save his life. I doubt Mylor has ever heard of Kirkegaard or Hume but I bet he knows all the Christian myths by heart. Gargus's post was rough around the edges but at least he has a brain, a set of balls to think for himself, and potential as a thinker.
 
As long as we are divulging our deepest convictions., I would also like to point out that Bitches aint nothing but hoes and tricks
 
[quote name='camoor']I doubt Mylor has ever heard of Kirkegaard or Hume but I bet he knows all the Christian myths by heart.[/QUOTE]

I doubt 95% of the population has heard of Kirkegaard or Hume.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']I doubt 95% of the population has heard of Kirkegaard or Hume.[/QUOTE]

Tell me about it. It's like arguing theoretical physics with kids who believe in the Easter bunny.
 
I have my own thoughts to add. If you look at the concept of Hell, to me it just wrecks of a king mad with his subjects, torturing them to death if they don't obey him. In the God context you flip it to God being a petulant child if you don't believe in "him" and letting you be tortured for all eternity(see a dungeon here). Also if you disobey "him". To me that idea makes God a complete asshole and less then humans, to just not believe in "him" or to be Gay or Crossdress, that sends you to Hell. Seriously to me that seriously invalidates the idea God is a higher being if it's even the Christian God as the one that exists.
I don't know if I can believe in so strict an archetype, so authoritarian. Instead if I believe in a higher evolutionary being, supreme to us, we commune with it and it is loving, guiding and not forceful I have to think. I mean especially for the last one if it's omniscent or has some sort of sense something is wrong it might guide or encourage us but the choice is never truly theirs. It respects free will.
I also steadfastedly believe in the balance that Daoism argues for. I think this idea can easily fit into Science and mesh. I mean "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.".
I hope it's also clear I'm not speaking to all Christians when I put forth my thoughts in the first paragraph.
My issue with Atheists, and not all of them, I suppose is that they replace religion with science which completely lacks morality. I'm not saying the scientific figures so much as science itself. I think people need to have some grounding moral ideology. It doesn't have to be religion but I hope there are some places Atheists will hold in common with their Christian counterparts such as no human cloning. Also that clones in general should not be allowed to breed but that's my belief. I believe clones cause too much potential damage to the genome in breeding. We've already seen that their lifecycle isn't as good as natural born beings.
I'm opposed to stem cell research as well in everything BUT curing Paralysis. I'm not for using it to cure Cancer or other things of the like. I believe there are cures in the Rainforrest and other places that can do that that are cheaper.
 
[quote name='camoor']Tell me about it. It's like arguing theoretical physics with kids who believe in the Easter bunny.[/QUOTE]

I love Kierkegaard(while in Copenhagen I went to have a drink and read Either/Or in the bar that used to be his apartment), but have yet to read Hume. Any recommendations?
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']No, the real essence here is what counts as knowledge..and what is a valid means of acquiring knowledge. Applying reason and critical thinking to observation and experiment is a proven method of discovery. It what has pulled us out of the dark ages. "Faith", revelation, or other magical claims have failed miserably at the same task.

The reality is that we have NO examples of a consciousness existing apart from matter. Theists have yet to come even remotely close to showing that something like a disembodied consciousness can exist..and are about a billion miles away from showing that such a consciousness can (or ever has) suspended the laws of nature by MAGIC. Believers take these propositions on "FAITH", while nonbelievers reject the concept of faith entirely as a means of acquiring knowledge. Faith and meditation are not ways of acquiring knowledge about the external world..no matter how much some wish it to be otherwise. If they were, every person in every competing religious denomination on earth would have an equal claim on truth, given that they have faith in their beliefs just as strongly as Christians do. Yet what do we see when we try and mash these together? Conflict..contradiction..and proven FALSEHOODS, all being preached as if they were knowledge.

Every country on the planet uses the same physics..the same mathematics..the same biology..all for good reason, because science and reason converges on TRUTH, regardless of cultural differences. Faith on the other hand builds up permanent walls of division. Every religious person on earth prays, meditates, reads their holy books, and has the same "personal experiences" described by Christians, yet they all come to different conclusions. The truth is we have no reason to think these experiences are anything more than psychological events caused by electrical signals shooting through a 3 pound blob of chemicals in the human head. Bottom line: Believers have yet to demonstrate the epistemological credentials of faith. They have yet to prove that faith is a valid means of learning anything about anything. They have given no sound reason for anyone to believe in god/gods and have failed to demonstrate there is a method other than reasoned skepticism for discovering the nature of reality and discerning true claims from false claims. Until they are able to demonstrate the validity of faith/meditation as a means of acquiring new knowledge about the world, everything that they take on faith can be considered irrational and justly dismissed.[/QUOTE]

I read all that and I still stand by what I said. Look at how many times you used words like 'demonstrate' and 'showing'. That's what I'm talking about. I personally feel it's totally unnecessary to demonstrate or show you, or anyone, why I believe what I believe; and the fact that such an endeavor is difficult or impossible does not mean, to me, that it's an invalid belief.

If you are talking about people trying to start a religion, then what you are saying is valid. But for someone that has personal experiences that can't be explained by known science (yet), thus can't be 'demonstrated' or 'proven' or 'shown' to any other person - they can be a rather spiritual person. There are lots of people like that - and to act like their beliefs and their experiences are pointless, meaningless, or ignorant because they can't prove their experiences to you is pretty obtuse, isn't it?

[quote name='SpazX']Not quite. If something isn't explicable then it isn't explicable. The supernatural is an explanation and explanations require evidence. You don't conclude that something is a hallucination because "it can't be reproduced or proven to another humans five senses" you only conclude that something is a hallucination if it can be replicated as a hallucination, which would give support to that explanation.[/quote]

Why do explanations require evidence? If you explain that you love someone, can others ask for evidence?

Whether you value an experience that you can or can't explain is irrelevant to what it is. Obviously you can value many experiences that are entirely explicable naturally. But when trying to explain something you have to have a foundation to do so.

Agreed, mostly.

But seriously - let's say you wake up tomorrow night and there are glowing beings in your room that tell you they are not from here and tell you all kinds of random stuff about the importance of storing and hording water and not wearing deoderant, and that you should spread the message - and it goes on for several hours.
What would you do with that experience? Would you keep it to yourself? Would you assume it was all in your head? Would you ever even try to tell someone else? You certainly can't prove it happened or what they told you is true, so is that the same as it not happening at all?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Why do explanations require evidence? If you explain that you love someone, can others ask for evidence?[/quote]

Well because otherwise there's no difference between something that's true and something that isn't true. Explanations without evidence are just speculation, they can be good for thinking about something, but ultimately it's just making shit up.

You certainly can ask for evidence that somebody loves someone. It being a subjective feeling that evidence may vary, but it would be relatively consistent on an individual basis and those people would generally have some reason for it.


[quote name='thrustbucket']Agreed, mostly.

But seriously - let's say you wake up tomorrow night and there are glowing beings in your room that tell you they are not from here and tell you all kinds of random stuff about the importance of storing and hording water and not wearing deoderant, and that you should spread the message - and it goes on for several hours.
What would you do with that experience? Would you keep it to yourself? Would you assume it was all in your head? Would you ever even try to tell someone else? You certainly can't prove it happened or what they told you is true, so is that the same as it not happening at all?[/QUOTE]

I would attempt to find an explanation for it. I could discuss it with someone I trusted, but there are plenty of things to look for that would require grander and grander explanations for it to have actually happened.

If they don't say anything particularly unique or important, or things that I already know or have thought about then what they said is pretty useless, whether or it was real or not, and is evidence that it could possibly have been generated in my own head.

Then of course if it lasted for several hours, or what felt like several hours, but that time hadn't actually passed, then the possibilities are that it was real, but didn't last that long, it didn't really happen, or it happened, lasted that long, but involved some kind of time dilation. You can see that some explanations are a bit more realistic than others.

If it happened, then I woke up, that would be good evidence that it was a dream, especially in combination with some message that wasn't unique, or no message at all. And of course if it never happened again then there wouldn't be much need to continue with it, or think up explanations that are more complicated.

Not having an explanation for it isn't the same as it not happening, but unless there's a good reason to think that it happened in reality rather than only in my brain then it would be most reasonable to think that it happened only in my brain. Every experience you have is created by your brain, it's not necessary that everything you experience actually has a real existence independent of your brain.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I personally feel it's totally unnecessary to demonstrate or show you, or anyone, why I believe what I believe; and the fact that such an endeavor is difficult or impossible does not mean, to me, that it's an invalid belief.

[/QUOTE]

Whatever tickles your pickle buddy. :) If you take off your face glasses and step back from the issue, I think you will recognize that it is an irrational belief by any normal standard. I know you have a good understanding of "what" you believe, but have you ever really thought about WHY you believe it? What convinced you in the first place to take any of those magical beliefs seriously? I believed biblical doctrine whole-heartedly for many years, but once I started asking myself this question that I was forced to admit I had come to my positions mainly through inheritance..through respect for my parents and other relatives growing up. I didn't come to them through a process of reason and wasn't using the same standards of evidence in the realm of religion that were demanded of me in every other area of life. Most believers I've spoken with are in the same boat..and when they do dive into issue thoroughly, they find that supernaturalism withers under scrutiny, and even experienced theologians don't have good answers to the questions raised by skeptics.

Most defenses of belief fall back to a horribly weak argument like Pascal's wager or quoting scripture like "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23" I explained earlier why faith is not a valid means of learning anything about reality. If your goal is comfort, consolation, and community, going to church serves a purpose. Faith can be rewarding in many areas, but this says nothing about the truth claims of religion. If your goal is to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible (which was my goal), faith is an utterly impotent tool for the job.

There are lots of people like that - and to act like their beliefs and their experiences are pointless, meaningless, or ignorant because they can't prove their experiences to you is pretty obtuse, isn't it?
I wouldn't say their beliefs are pointless to them. I'm sure people of all faiths get "something" out of their emotional experiences. It is certainly real to them. The moment they start asserting that their beliefs are factually true is where the gloves come off. Private religious beliefs are one thing.. Asserting knowledge of god's will and using it as a justification to make decisions that affect other people is quite another.

Why do explanations require evidence? If you explain that you love someone, can others ask for evidence?
We can see evidence for love. ;) It is visible both in outward behavior and internal brain chemistry. Scientists have actually studied the electrical impulses that light up in certain parts of the brain when emotions are triggered. It is a very real phenomenon that can be verified.. That isn't the case with claims of a magical being that intervenes within the universe. It isn't the case when it comes to the dozens of conflicting holy books around the world. An intervening god should be much more tangible than something like a human emotion..yet god remains remarkably well hidden. Bottom line: If people want to take seriously the idea that magical interventions take place and that the creator of the universe has revealed his will to humanity, our standards of evidence must be a bit higher.

But seriously - let's say you wake up tomorrow night and there are glowing beings in your room that tell you they are not from here and tell you all kinds of random stuff about the importance of storing and hording water and not wearing deoderant, and that you should spread the message - and it goes on for several hours.
What would you do with that experience? Would you keep it to yourself? Would you assume it was all in your head? Would you ever even try to tell someone else? You certainly can't prove it happened or what they told you is true, so is that the same as it not happening at all?
Knowing what I know about the fallibility of the human mind..about our propensity to hallucinate (especially when waking from sleep), and our propensity to exaggerate and distort memories over time, looking back on it I would probably assume the event was a figment of my imagination. Glowing aliens is so far outside the realm of everything we understand about the natural world, I would require a bit more verification to prove I wasn't under some sort of delusion. If they perhaps gave me concrete knowledge of future events or scientific principles that had not yet been discovered by man, that would count as hard evidence that something unusual did in fact happen. But if they told me nothing that was beyond my capacity to imagine, I would have no reason to take it seriously. This incidentally is another reason why you shouldn't take the bible literally. It contains no profound wisdom and no transcendent knowledge. The pages look exactly as we would expect a book to look written by first century primitives with a first century understanding of science and a first century sense of morality.. Many of the stories are colored with racism, sexism, and barbaric attitudes towards outsiders that were prevalent at the time...certainly not the moral lesson you would expect from the mind of a timeless and perfect god.
 
I don't have as much time as I'd like but these are both great responses, leading to a really good discussion from both of you. I applaud it.

[quote name='SpazX']Well because otherwise there's no difference between something that's true and something that isn't true. Explanations without evidence are just speculation, they can be good for thinking about something, but ultimately it's just making shit up.

You certainly can ask for evidence that somebody loves someone. It being a subjective feeling that evidence may vary, but it would be relatively consistent on an individual basis and those people would generally have some reason for it.[/quote]

I personally decided a while a go that the majority of "truth" is more relative than subjective. I don't have an explanation for why I feel that way that you will find acceptable, and it's a bit off topic, but the quantum doors of science have started to show us how such a claim is not entirely insane.

The reason I constantly bring up five senses is that I think the possibility is very high that our five senses collectively and severely twist and distort our ability to interpret what is in this (and other?) universes. Devices and new tech that we build to try and detect more than our five senses provide, only get us so far.

It's also a bit sad to me that if the above is true, and society defines truth by repeatability in lab circumstances, then we are severely limiting ourselves as a people to what we can experience and learn as long as we depend on external tools that do not yet, and may never, exist.


I would attempt to find an explanation for it. I could discuss it with someone I trusted, but there are plenty of things to look for that would require grander and grander explanations for it to have actually happened.

If they don't say anything particularly unique or important, or things that I already know or have thought about then what they said is pretty useless, whether or it was real or not, and is evidence that it could possibly have been generated in my own head.

Then of course if it lasted for several hours, or what felt like several hours, but that time hadn't actually passed, then the possibilities are that it was real, but didn't last that long, it didn't really happen, or it happened, lasted that long, but involved some kind of time dilation. You can see that some explanations are a bit more realistic than others.

If it happened, then I woke up, that would be good evidence that it was a dream, especially in combination with some message that wasn't unique, or no message at all. And of course if it never happened again then there wouldn't be much need to continue with it, or think up explanations that are more complicated.

I can totally respect that approach. It's a valid, and probably wise approach. I personally wouldn't approach the situation like that though. That's just a personal choice. I embrace such situations and/or scenarios as potentially great learning and growing episodes. I wouldn't concern myself much with the how's, why's, or who's.

Not having an explanation for it isn't the same as it not happening, but unless there's a good reason to think that it happened in reality rather than only in my brain then it would be most reasonable to think that it happened only in my brain. Every experience you have is created by your brain, it's not necessary that everything you experience actually has a real existence independent of your brain.

Now you are starting to speak my language. :) This is part of why I enjoy postulating the confines of what reality really is, and the existential possibilities that line of questioning reveals.

[quote name='Capitalizt']Whatever tickles your pickle buddy. :) If you take off your face glasses and step back from the issue, I think you will recognize that it is an irrational belief by any normal standard. I know you have a good understanding of "what" you believe, but have you ever really thought about WHY you believe it? What convinced you in the first place to take any of those magical beliefs seriously? I believed biblical doctrine whole-heartedly for many years, but once I started asking myself this question that I was forced to admit I had come to my positions mainly through inheritance..through respect for my parents and other relatives growing up. I didn't come to them through a process of reason and wasn't using the same standards of evidence in the realm of religion that were demanded of me in every other area of life. Most believers I've spoken with are in the same boat..and when they do dive into issue thoroughly, they find that supernaturalism withers under scrutiny, and even experienced theologians don't have good answers to the questions raised by skeptics. [/quote]

I am no longer concerned with proof. I am no longer concerned with proving. In fact, I am no longer concerned with much of the 'why's'.

For me, this life is a personal journey. I decided a long time ago to stop wasting my short time in this life trying to prove to others why certain experiences and feelings were important or should be important to me.

Dogma doesn't concern me. I think we agree, for the most part, that what a person believes is their business. Using those beliefs and experiences to try and control others is what you find disgusting.

Most defenses of belief fall back to a horribly weak argument like Pascal's wager or quoting scripture like "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23" I explained earlier why faith is not a valid means of learning anything about reality. If your goal is comfort, consolation, and community, going to church serves a purpose. Faith can be rewarding in many areas, but this says nothing about the truth claims of religion. If your goal is to have as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible (which was my goal), faith is an utterly impotent tool for the job.
It's impossible to defend feelings, so why try? I laugh at bible bashers. To me, the personal spiritual journey is what it's all about.

I won't defend any book written by a mortal as the word of a god. If someone had some unexplainable experiences and they tried to write it in a book, it would immediately be biased and not terribly useful anyway. That, above anything, is what I hope to help religious people realize.

We can see evidence for love. ;) It is visible both in outward behavior and internal brain chemistry. Scientists have actually studied the electrical impulses that light up in certain parts of the brain when emotions are triggered. It is a very real phenomenon that can be verified.. That isn't the case with claims of a magical being that intervenes within the universe. It isn't the case when it comes to the dozens of conflicting holy books around the world. An intervening god should be much more tangible than something like a human emotion..yet god remains remarkably well hidden. Bottom line: If people want to take seriously the idea that magical interventions take place and that the creator of the universe has revealed his will to humanity, our standards of evidence must be a bit higher.
I don't personally adhere to the beliefs you are listing, that's why I never brought up any religion or book as part of my argument. All I can say to the above is that your car would seem like 'magic' to anyone living more than 150 years ago. The word 'magic' is simply an admittance that you don't know how something works.

Knowing what I know about the fallibility of the human mind..about our propensity to hallucinate (especially when waking from sleep), and our propensity to exaggerate and distort memories over time, looking back on it I would probably assume the event was a figment of my imagination. Glowing aliens is so far outside the realm of everything we understand about the natural world, I would require a bit more verification to prove I wasn't under some sort of delusion. If they perhaps gave me concrete knowledge of future events or scientific principles that had not yet been discovered by man, that would count as hard evidence that something unusual did in fact happen. But if they told me nothing that was beyond my capacity to imagine, I would have no reason to take it seriously. This incidentally is another reason why you shouldn't take the bible literally. It contains no profound wisdom and no transcendent knowledge. The pages look exactly as we would expect a book to look written by first century primitives with a first century understanding of science and a first century sense of morality.. Many of the stories are colored with racism, sexism, and barbaric attitudes towards outsiders that were prevalent at the time...certainly not the moral lesson you would expect from the mind of a timeless and perfect god.

Again, you can interject biblical and specific religious dogma into what you are saying, but they are of little importance to me. I'm trying to focus on truly unexplained phenomena that can and do influence people's lives which might later be interpreted by others as religious or silly.

I guess I wouldn't measure the value of such a strange or unexplainable experience in what I gained from it that I couldn't have found elsewhere. The experience itself would have huge value to me.

I also think that if there were entities out there undetectable by science that could, under certain circumstances (on the part of the receiver) communicate to someone, that there is no reason to believe what they communicated would be useful to anyone other than that person. It's arrogant of us to believe that if anything or anyone "more" than us had something to say, it would have to do with physical technology or humanities technical progression.

Wish I could write more. But I like having a job. Great discussion guys....
 
[quote name='looploop']I love Kierkegaard(while in Copenhagen I went to have a drink and read Either/Or in the bar that used to be his apartment), but have yet to read Hume. Any recommendations?[/QUOTE]

That's so cool and European.

"Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" is a great read, short and to the point. Thinking about it, I might read it again myself this weekend if I get some time.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I didn't read one word in this topic.

On that note, Marjoe is an amazing documentary everybody should watch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe[/QUOTE]

Good one. I recommend Elmer Gantry.

Sarang, I'm with you on the wisdom of eastern religion but I must say that there are many athiests that are also humanists. I find that athiests are far better moral judges then Christians, they typically are cerebral people who base their decisions on reason rather then a rigid moral accounting based on archaic rule systems.
 
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