Chrisitianity (or any religion really) is a order of bullshit and chips.

[quote name='camoor']Yeah but again you're saying religion but really talking about contemporary American Christianity.
[/QUOTE]

Nope. All religions I'm familiar with have some explanation of creation, some conception of an afterlife (or reincarnation) etc.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree. I respect people's right to have what ever beliefs they want, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves.
 
Wow I thought you were being theorhetical about when you have kids. You seem like such a free spirit and I mean that as a giant compliment.
Does he grow some Heirloom too?
Frankly, I liken GMO's to poison.
edit: As for you and dmaul's argument I wish more religion's that act like they're about the community would be. What they NEED to be is a counterpoint or competition to Big, heartless, blind, greedy Corporations. They need to start up not for profit businesses that pay a LIVING wage and employ people here. If not for helping people like this, where they're desperately needed, what the fuck are they good for? It's your JOB to help your parishioners if they're suffering.
 
[quote name='punklivz']Now on the other side of my argument, if there were NEVER religion, I don't think the world would be anymore chaotic then it is now. Now does that make sense? I am just stressing that if religion were proven wrong RIGHT NOW, it would become a hell on earth.[/QUOTE]

You can't disprove religion, people have and will continue to rework their religions around whatever occurrences or discoveries happen in the future.

Religion to me is just a part of culture, and it has had a huge impact in how civilizations have evolved and how values of certain peoples have formed. It's a valuable aspect of our history and traditions. But I think when people preach about creation and afterlives, more and more people are starting to scratch their heads.
 
[quote name='punklivz']AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING RAISING THEM LIKE THIS. I AM SAYING IF RELIGION WAS TO BE TAKEN AWAY AT THIS MOMENT. NOT SAYING THAT I CAN RAISE MY KIDS BETTER THEN ANYONE ELSE WITH OR WITHOUT RELIGION.

but you are right, lets disagree to agree... err u know[/QUOTE]

One last thought....getting away from the kids angle.


You and I have dropped religion and are perfectly moral people. But you assume that for other people losing religion would make them immoral as that religious belief is the ONLY (or main) thing keeping them moral.

Don't you see the implied superiority inherent in that logic? You and I can be moral with out religion, but enough other people would become immoral people without it to raise crime rates!

Must be something special about you and I to remain moral without religion while others can't! :D

Again, not saying you're being an elitist or anything. I know you mean your comments in an innocent manner and aren't trying to put anyone down.

But people don't take enough time to look at the underlying meaning of certain opinions. If one thinks they can be a good person without something, but other's can't--there's some self confidence in there. Some belief that you have what it takes to be moral without religion, but across society the majority (enough to raise the crime rate) could not.


Just wanted to clarify a tad, and hopefully make it clearly that I'm not trying to belittle you, so much as to get you to look more closely at the implicit/subconscious logic behind your opinion on religion and morals.
 
[quote name='punklivz']Now on the other side of my argument, if there were NEVER religion, I don't think the world would be anymore chaotic then it is now. Now does that make sense? I am just stressing that if religion were proven wrong RIGHT NOW, it would become a hell on earth.[/QUOTE]

Just saw this post, which builds on to my above post.

I will say I agree with that--but for a different reason.

The chaos wouldn't be because of declining morals, lack of fear of hell etc.

It would be chaos because of the shock of having deep rooted beliefs proven wrong and a hugely increased fear of dying, rage over knowing deceased loved one's were gone for good etc. etc All of that would create a huge panic. Like the chaos in the movie Children of Men over humans no longer being able to reproduce. :D

But it would level off after a while, and things would be back to normal in a generation or two as those people die off and new people are born into a religionless world with no afterlife.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Nope. All religions I'm familiar with have some explanation of creation, some conception of an afterlife (or reincarnation) etc.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree. I respect people's right to have what ever beliefs they want, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves.[/QUOTE]

I suppose. I have a somewhat gnostic viewpoint, so suffice to say I'm the last guy to defend any sort of dogma. I have to respect the viewpoint of anyone who states they're deeply skeptical, it's very 'know thyself', very Socratic.

Besides, we can always pick this convo up next lifetime ;)
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']One last thought....getting away from the kids angle.


You and I have dropped religion and are perfectly moral people. But you assume that for other people losing religion would make them immoral as that religious belief is the ONLY (or main) thing keeping them moral.

Don't you see the implied superiority inherent in that logic? You and I can be moral with out religion, but enough other people would become immoral people without it to raise crime rates!

Must be something special about you and I to remain moral without religion while others can't! :D

Again, not saying you're being an elitist or anything. I know you mean your comments in an innocent manner and aren't trying to put anyone down.

But people don't take enough time to look at the underlying meaning of certain opinions. If one thinks they can be a good person without something, but other's can't--there's some self confidence in there. Some belief that you have what it takes to be moral without religion, but across society the majority (enough to raise the crime rate) could not.


Just wanted to clarify a tad, and hopefully make it clearly that I'm not trying to belittle you, so much as to get you to look more closely at the implicit/subconscious logic behind your opinion on religion and morals.[/QUOTE]
Yes, basically, if that is how you want to interpret it. I do not feel superior to anyone, and if SOMEONE was raised with morals and no religion, I do believe they'd be fine. However, if that SAME person was raised WITH religion, and it be taken away from them, I think they'd be likely to commit crimes they wouldn't of otherwise committed.

I do understand where you are coming from, and a very valid point you have made. I did enjoy this, and thank you for your comments, they've shed light on things I've not thought about before, and I appreciate that.


I guess I should have been more clear early on, I am saying if religion were to be taken away at this moment. I am not saying if there were NEVER religion, because my opinion would be different in that matter.
 
[quote name='punklivz']Yes, basically, if that is how you want to interpret it. I do not feel superior to anyone, and if ANYONE was raised with morals and no religion, I do believe they'd be fine. However, if that SAME person was raised WITH religion, and it be taken away from them, I think they'd be likely to commit crimes they wouldn't of otherwise committed.

I do understand where you are coming from, and a very valid point you have made. I did enjoy this, and thank you for your comments, they've shed light on things I've not thought about before, and I appreciate that.[/QUOTE]


I guess I should have been more clear early on, I am saying if religion were to be taken away at this moment. I am not saying if there were NEVER religion, because my opinion would be different in that matter.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']You can't disprove religion, people have and will continue to rework their religions around whatever occurrences or discoveries happen in the future.

Religion to me is just a part of culture, and it has had a huge impact in how civilizations have evolved and how values of certain peoples have formed. It's a valuable aspect of our history and traditions. But I think when people preach about creation and afterlives, more and more people are starting to scratch their heads.[/QUOTE]

hypothetically :) I know you can't disprove it, at this time.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Must be something special about you and I to remain moral without religion while others can't! :D[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying punklivz is right, he is massively oversimplifying all of his arguements. However do you honestly think most people are half as smart as you are?
 
[quote name='punklivz']Yes, basically, if that is how you want to interpret it. I do not feel superior to anyone, and if SOMEONE was raised with morals and no religion, I do believe they'd be fine. However, if that SAME person was raised WITH religion, and it be taken away from them, I think they'd be likely to commit crimes they wouldn't of otherwise committed.

I do understand where you are coming from, and a very valid point you have made. I did enjoy this, and thank you for your comments, they've shed light on things I've not thought about before, and I appreciate that.


I guess I should have been more clear early on, I am saying if religion were to be taken away at this moment. I am not saying if there were NEVER religion, because my opinion would be different in that matter.[/QUOTE]

No problem.

And as I said in the other post above, I think taking religion away now would lead to some chaos, rioting etc.

But not from a decline in morals, just from people losing they're minds over having their world view shattered, people going insane over the thought of seeing deceased loved ones in the after life etc.

But I think things would be back to normal in a few decades when that all blows over and the people that went crazy died off, and society has gone on to living life. Morals, crime etc. would bounce back to where they are currently as the other social control agencies (family, school, community etc.) pick up the slack.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'm not saying punklivz is right, he is massively oversimplifying all of his arguements. However do you honestly think most people are half as smart as you are?[/QUOTE]

Smart, no. :D Not being an eltiest ass, but all us academics know that we've had the blessing of getting over educated and have the luxury of devoting our careers to developing our intellects etc. We're extremely "overeducated" so of course there's an air of intellectual superiority in academia. Just like there's an are of physical superiority in pro athletics or military special forces etc. :D


But on morals? I think by far the majority of people out there have perfectly fine morals. Anti-social/immoral behavior is a minority occurrence. That's why it's labeled immoral or criminal or anti-social--it goes against the majority norms.

So I definitely don't think I'm morally better than most people out there by any stretch of the imagination.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'm not saying punklivz is right, he is massively oversimplifying all of his arguements. However do you honestly think most people are half as smart as you are?[/QUOTE]


She, and Her* ty :)
 
[quote name='camoor']I'm not saying punklivz is right, he is massively oversimplifying all of his arguements. However do you honestly think most people are half as smart as you are?[/QUOTE]

I think punk is a girl.
 
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