Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

[quote name='Capitalizt']As doc pointed out, the whole notion of "testing" someone to see whether they would pass..by dragging their son up a mountain and terrifying them by strapping them down and holding a knife over their chest does seem a bit crude for an omniscient being. And actually, god does seem to approve of human sacrifice. There is another story that "god" left in the bible about a man named Jephthah who promised God a sacrifice if he would help him win a battle. God did so, then Jephthah went home and slaughtered his only daughter as he had promised..and offered her up as a burnt offering. God didn't see fit to intervene in that case so he obviously doesn't have a huge problem with it. (Judges 11: 29-39)

As for the rest of your post..You seem to be missing the point of the video. Hitch isn't attacking Jesus. I'm sure he was a swell guy. The focus is on the core doctrine of Christianity..the fact that God (despite being omnipotent) appears unable to forgive someone without demanding that something innocent be slaughtered as a sacrifice. All forgiveness for god is contingent on something innocent being killed (scapegoating)..and his anger and vengeful attitude cannot be abated any other way. In the old testament he gave explicit instructions for how sins were to be forgiven..involving the slaughter of innocent animals..rubbing the blood on your body and sprinkling it around the altar..because he enjoyed the "sweet smell" of burning blood.

We humans have no problem forgiving people without setting conditions. A parent can forgive his child for a wrong action without demanding that he kill the family cat..or that he crucify his best friend, but the creator of the universe seems to lack this ability..which does makes the central Christian doctrine utterly nonsensical and laughable. You may think the following vid is a parody, but this is literally what it boils down to. (3:00) Anyone who wasn't indoctrinated with this stuff and who didn't hear the Jesus story being preached in reverent tones by their respected elders while growing up will see it for the absurdity that it is. [/QUOTE]

Like prayer, Abrahams testing was more for him then for God. God already knows what we are going to pray and what we are going to pray about, it is more for the person doing the praying to know that they have given something to let God deal with or thank him for. As with Abraham, to know that he went that far for God and to know God would never want his son to die for Abraham, and it started the use of a scapegoat. The story of Jephthah is a sad one, but not one caused by God, if you read it then it shows that Jephthah was being foolish by offering whatever he first saw come through the door when he came back. He was being so ambitious to become a hero that he lost his only daughter. God never asked for her to die, Jephthah did in a sense, and that was his fault and his alone. He did have a "problem" with it, though Jephthah had to pay the consequences of his foolishness and ambitiousness.
Also, you seem to have a misconception of how to view forgiveness. Suppose for example that I break someones window. They would most likely ask me to pay for it/repair it. But why can't they just forgive me and have me be done with it? Either I pay for, or they do. The price must be paid somehow, it won't just go away with him forgiving me. Forgiving me means they take the punishment for themselves and let the person that did the wrong doing away with punishment. As with the case of sin, a price has to be paid for that to go away, in this case, the price of blood. But the great thing is that God decided to pay that price in full for everyone of all time.
 
On the Jephthah story, the point is that god (being omnipotent and omniscient) knew what Jephthah would do if he won the battle. God helped him to commit the great slaughter, and unlike the case of Abraham and Isaac, he did not intervene to prevent the sacrifice (despite having 2 months to think it over). If God sees all and really doesn't approve of this sort of thing, why did he allow it to take place, instead of sending another angel or some other form of revelation to Jephthah to prevent it?

As to your question..(I'll pretend to be God for a minute) If you broke my window, I would either forgive you, or I would demand you compensate me for it. What I would NOT do is demand that you find an innocent animal or person and slaughter it in order to earn forgiveness. Remember, I am infinitely powerful which means I cannot be harmed by anything you do. However even if I could be harmed or have my ego bruised by your actions, I would not even consider torturing and murdering someone else for it. This would be a complete mockery of justice. If any human court tried doing something similar, it would be considered a monstrous act. They would be roundly condemned by every civilized nation on the planet..

I'm begging you to take off your god glasses, step away from your faith for a minute, and think about this question through the lens of reason:

If a fellow human being that you had wronged claimed that they could not forgive you unless some brutal harm be permitted to be done to some innocent person (or, more accurately, to themselves) then what would your opinion be regarding that person's state of mind? Be honest.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='unluckynumber11']It surprises me how little he knows about Christian Doctrine. In the case of human sacrifice, God never asked for humans to kill themselves for his "appeasement". God hates the idea of human sacrifice, that's the whole reason why he wiped out the Canaanites, because they practiced child sacrifices to their god Moloch. Also when he told Abraham to kill his son, was only done to see how faithful he was to God, and then God gave him an alternative sacrifice at the last minute because he hates human sacrifice. Now then, what about Jesus? God asked him to kill himself as a sacrifice didn't he? Yes he did, but we must remember who Jesus is, fully God and fully man. So God sent himself to be killed for our sake, how is that immoral?[/QUOTE]
I grew up Christian/Catholic. I know all the stories and I've read the bible a couple of times. I'm still completely dumbstruck by the stories when I see them. I just don't get how anyone reads any of that and actually believes it.
 
I think that depends greatly on whether or not you choose to acknowledge the old testament even exists, as many Christians seem not to.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']On the Jephthah story, the point is that god (being omnipotent and omniscient) knew what Jephthah would do if he won the battle. God helped him to commit the great slaughter, and unlike the case of Abraham and Isaac, he did not intervene to prevent the sacrifice (despite having 2 months to think it over). If God sees all and really doesn't approve of this sort of thing, why did he allow it to take place, instead of sending another angel or some other form of revelation to Jephthah to prevent it?

As to your question..(I'll pretend to be God for a minute) If you broke my window, I would either forgive you, or I would demand you compensate me for it. What I would NOT do is demand that you find an innocent animal or person and slaughter it in order to earn forgiveness. Remember, I am infinitely powerful which means I cannot be harmed by anything you do. However even if I could be harmed or have my ego bruised by your actions, I would not even consider torturing and murdering someone else for it. This would be a complete mockery of justice. If any human court tried doing something similar, it would be considered a monstrous act. They would be roundly condemned by every civilized nation on the planet..

I'm begging you to take off your god glasses, step away from your faith for a minute, and think about this question through the lens of reason:

If a fellow human being that you had wronged claimed that they could not forgive you unless some brutal harm be permitted to be done to some innocent person (or, more accurately, to themselves) then what would your opinion be regarding that person's state of mind? Be honest.[/QUOTE]
The first thing you brought up is known as the problem of evil. Evil things do happen but then why does God let them? First of all, we as human beings have been given free will by God to make whatever choice we want, but we must also face the consequences that go along with it. With the broken world we live in and the fact that we have free will, it goes without saying that evil will exist. In fact God uses evil to serve His purpose, he doesn't cause evil to happen, but He makes it work in his favor, like the story of Joseph. He uses evil so that people will grow closer to Him. For example, in the countries that endure the most hardship and the most evil, you see that they are actually the fastest growing evangelical populations as well. The reason He lets evil to continue is to grow His kingdom into the future.
If you're window was broken and you blamed me for it and punished me, you would make me pay for it and I would have to give up a burden. If you forgive me then I am absolved of the punishment but the burden still has to be payed, and the payment of sin is death. You therefor has to give up something that was most precious to you (the best of your animals) and have that serve as the price in death in your stead. Either way the payment has to be made, the payment of death. If you don't give the sacrifice then you fall on his judgement, you have to pay the price, not something else. The sacrifice isn't for His sake, it's for ours. God couldn't care less if we make it or not, but it is in our best interest for our sake to do it. But to be close to Him and someone in a relationship with him, you have to because he does not tolerate sin. Of course these days that is not necessary because the price for everyone has already been payed.
Forgiveness is something that is different for each case. For my example, forgiveness entails a monetary burden to be made upon the person doing the forgiving, in the case of emotional forgiveness, a burden still has to be paid by the person doing the forgiving, which is that they have to let it go and move on from it and not be consumed by revenge or feelings of revenge, which is a hard thing to do. Their state of mind would be fine if it would be upon themselves that they make the burden be met. If they forgave me, then they would take up the burden themselves, whether it be money wise or emotional, they would do the suffering for my sake. They would either give up money for something that was broken or go through the tough struggle of letting it go and giving up a feel of revenge and a bad attitude.
 
[quote name='Clak']I think that depends greatly on whether or not you choose to acknowledge the old testament even exists, as many Christians seem not to.[/QUOTE]

I have to admit I did laugh when I first read this. All Christians with a robust orthodox faith (whether it be Protestant, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox church) adhere to the accuracy of the Old Testament as part of God's word. Why else would we have it in the Bible?
 
Don't ask me, I'm not the one that seems to ignore much of it. Christians seem to have the image of some loving and forgiving god, and at least in the old testament that isn't exactly accurate.
 
[quote name='Clak']Don't ask me, I'm not the one that seems to ignore much of it. Christians seem to have the image of some loving and forgiving god, and at least in the old testament that isn't exactly accurate.[/QUOTE]

From the beginning God has said that he will send a savior, a messiah. God in the old testament was very judgmental on the Israelites because they kept on disobeying and turning away from him, and then he punished them and that turned them back to them. He pleaded with the Israelites not to disobey him because he doesn't want to harm them, but they brought it upon them-self. Throughout the old testament prophets have foretold that God would redeem them once and for all. The whole reason that God chose the Israelites is because of the grace he showed in the New Testament. They haven't done anything to earn their favor, he just chose them even though they didn't deserve it, no one did.
 
[quote name='Clak']God sounds like a judgmental jackass.[/QUOTE]He has every right to be judgmental, He is perfect, we are not, thus we fall under his judgement, but then we don't have to be the one that is judged.
 
How is God perfect when he created such a shitty world and sits there with "arms crossed" as Hitchesn put it, and watches his ant farm squirm?

Also how do you know it's a he?

Unlucky would you agree that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? If so, that means he is down with rape, murder, genocide, and your posts? Really? He is all good yet all good with all of this?

If your response is "Well he just gave us the world and we do with it what we will." The response is "Not uh!" God is willing all of it. He is omnipotent remember, it is God doing the raping, not us.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']How is God perfect when he created such a shitty world and sits there with "arms crossed" as Hitchesn put it, and watches his ant farm squirm?

Also how do you know it's a he?

Unlucky would you agree that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? If so, that means he is down with rape, murder, genocide, and your posts? Really? He is all good yet all good with all of this?

If your response is "Well he just gave us the world and we do with it what we will." The response is "Not uh!" God is willing all of it. He is omnipotent remember, it is God doing the raping, not us.[/QUOTE]

He/she has a plan that we don't understand.:) That's what I've always been told.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']In fact God uses evil to serve His purpose, he doesn't cause evil to happen[/QUOTE]

Orly?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD? - Exodus 4:11

So god is the one who creates evil..and who afflicts people with deafness, blindness, and mental illness, etc. He is the author of life, which means he intentionally created life forms like parasites, the AIDS virus, cancer cells, and every other form of natural evil we can think of. You call these acts of a compassionate being?

For example, in the countries that endure the most hardship and the most evil, you see that they are actually the fastest growing evangelical populations as well. The reason He lets evil to continue is to grow His kingdom into the future.
Click to expand...
Wonderful...So the reason he killed 300,000 people in the Haitian earthquake, or 260,000 people in the 2004 Indian tsunami was to make more Christians? Fantastic plan. Except it doesn't seem to be working in India at least. Their Hindu population is at an all time high while the Christians have remained stagnant. Besides, if sending disease and disaster is the only way god knows how to "bring more people into his kingdom", isn't this an argument AGAINST the idea that he is omnipotent? If the best idea that an infinitely powerful being could come up with to make more Christians is to destroy countless families, that is rather pathetic. Only a limited god would need to use such crude methods.

If you're window was broken and you blamed me for it and punished me, you would make me pay for it and I would have to give up a burden. If you forgive me then I am absolved of the punishment but the burden still has to be payed, and the payment of sin is death
Click to expand...
Why exactly? An omnipotent god cannot be injured, so why would he need to kill imperfect beings for being imperfect? Why is he so vengeful? Why does he experience petty human emotions like anger and jealousy? Most importantly (you still haven't answered this)..Why is it impossible for him to forgive people without giving them an ultimatum? Again I ask: If you offended me in some way, and I told you that the only way you could earn forgiveness was by murdering an innocent animal or person as a sacrifice, what would your opinion be on my mental state?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='Strell']This thread should stop. This is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? We finally got a bite from a real Xtian. LYNCH TIME!!!

Oh, I'm done responding since I'm sure unlucky is beyond the reach of reason. Bottom line: Christianity makes no sense, and repeating the same old canards and ancient creeds aint gonna change that.

[/thread]
 
[quote name='pittpizza']How is God perfect when he created such a shitty world and sits there with "arms crossed" as Hitchesn put it, and watches his ant farm squirm?

Also how do you know it's a he?

Unlucky would you agree that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? If so, that means he is down with rape, murder, genocide, and your posts? Really? He is all good yet all good with all of this?

If your response is "Well he just gave us the world and we do with it what we will." The response is "Not uh!" God is willing all of it. He is omnipotent remember, it is God doing the raping, not us.[/QUOTE]

The only possible way that God could create a world where free living creatures accept him would most likely be one of a small population. Otherwise there would be people that freely reject him as we see in the huge world today. The fact that He waited till two thousand years ago to send his savior and about seven thousand years ago when He sent his law was because it wouldn't make any sense to have it any earlier. Think of it historically, man is about 160 thousand years old, language wasn't invented to a couple of thousand years ago, so it wouldn't make any sense to reveal himself if there was no language to record it. Also, He sent Jesus at the perfect time, during the Pax Romana, in Israel, the crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe. And with the universality of the Greek language that it could be written on. You can't argue "Oh it should have been at X time" because you couldn't prove that. Also it's funny that Hitchens says that God has only been here for the last 2% of human history, when if you look at a graph of the history of earth population-wise, you would see the opposite, that he has been here for the majority of human lives as the population has risen exponentially in the last 2000 years.
If you read His law then you would know what he is against, things like rape, murder. We are free beings, I'm not sure you get this. We choose what we want to do, God gives us that gift of freedom. The problem of evil (sin) is both in nature and humans, due to the fall of the universe into sin. They turned away from God by not following His law and doing whatever they want. His omnipotence doesn't entail that He would stop every bad thing, that's not who God is, and if He did act like you would surmise, humanity would be a world of idiots and probably still left in the dark ages if not cavemen. If every problem that came out way was just solved before us, humanity would be left in an immature state where we couldn't do or solve anything, and we wouldn't be where we are today. But that is not to say he isn't doing anything, a lot of the things today are thanks to God, such as hospitals, universities, much of Science today (Astronomy, Physics, the scientific method as we know it today) but Hitchens seems to be just pointing all the bad things that have happened and told God "Why didn't it happen earlier" but for reasons I already explained, it wouldn't have worked.
Through evil, man becomes a more mature and morally right being. Just as I said before, without us solving out own problems we would be left in a state of infancy, mere idiots not being able to do anything. Even though the pain and suffering is hard and God knows that, we don't and couldn't know if there is a morally sufficient reason for it. He doesn't see the world like we do, He sees everywhere from all time and so He would know what is morally sufficient for His plan in the grand scheme of things. If some evil thing happened that we look at and say "How could a loving God permit this?", well we wouldn't be in a position to say that there is none because we don't see it. Another thing is that humanity for the most part think that the chief purpose in life is to be happy, but that is not true, it is the knowledge of God, which in the end brings eternal fulfillment. Evils may seem utterly trivial and purposeless, but again, happiness is not the purpose in life. This is why you see so many people turning to Christianity in many countries of hardship. One would surmise that countries that endure the most hardship wouldn't believe in a God that allows things like that to happen, but that is not the case, they live in the place where Christianity is growing exponentially, because then they know that there is a purpose for the evil, and hope. What depends though is our response to such evils, they could end up with knowledge of God and accept his plan, or freely reject Him, He gives us that choice.
God letting evil run its course just shows the world what it is like without Him, leaving us in a place under His judgement. It only heighten man's need for Him. In the end, God will make it better. With eternal life, God will turn the tables of evil and not just undo the evil that is caused, but make it so good outdoes it and finally takes over.
To think that God just sits idly and watches everything go by with His arms crossed it no who God is. He came here to suffer with us, one of the most painful ways imaginable, when He of all things didn't deserve it, but he did it anyway, He came here to suffer with us and lay down foundation to outdo evil.
To say that God makes free choosing people do things is contradictory. He doesn't make us do anything, He gave us the power of freedom and choice and He is loving enough to let us do what we want with it. The only other way for him to make us do things is to turn us into robots with no freedom of what we can do, but that wouldn't be love now would it?
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']As doc pointed out, the whole notion of "testing" someone to see whether they would pass..by dragging their son up a mountain and terrifying them by strapping them down and holding a knife over their chest does seem a bit crude for an omniscient being.[/QUOTE]

I always thought the gnostic take on Christianity was interesting.

I think religion, gods, angels, saints, etc are interesting to understand from an archetypal point of view.

I agree with the guy here who said religion is fine as long as the practitioners don't cause harm to others. In a world with nuclear weapons, it's frightening that people are still forming governments based on a fundamentalist understanding of ancient religious texts. Technology has bounded ahead, but many of the world's religions have not followed suit.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']He has every right to be judgmental, He is perfect, we are not, thus we fall under his judgement, but then we don't have to be the one that is judged.[/QUOTE]
Any being which is perfect should be capable of doing anything perfectly. So then tell me why a perfect being would create an imperfect world? And don't give me "it's his plan" or anything like that, I want a logical answer. I doubt you can answer it logically because it isn't logical that a perfect being would create something which isn't perfect.

Nevermind that an even more perfect being would have had to create god, and how can something be more perfect (we've been screwing that up since the formation of the country).
 
[quote name='Clak']Any being which is perfect should be capable of doing anything perfectly. So then tell me why a perfect being would create an imperfect world? And don't give me "it's his plan" or anything like that, I want a logical answer. I doubt you can answer it logically because it isn't logical that a perfect being would create something which isn't perfect.

Nevermind that an even more perfect being would have had to create god, and how can something be more perfect (we've been screwing that up since the formation of the country).[/QUOTE]

I don't know about the Christian Fod, but Zeus has every right to judge us - he is way powerful and a total badass. Now that is some logic you can't refute.
 
[quote name='Clak']Any being which is perfect should be capable of doing anything perfectly. So then tell me why a perfect being would create an imperfect world? And don't give me "it's his plan" or anything like that, I want a logical answer. I doubt you can answer it logically because it isn't logical that a perfect being would create something which isn't perfect.

Nevermind that an even more perfect being would have had to create god, and how can something be more perfect (we've been screwing that up since the formation of the country).[/QUOTE]God did make man perfectly, God had a relationship with us and saw that it was good, in that at first it was, but then man fell into sin and became imperfect because of the fact that we are free beings. There is always that risk when it comes to a free person, that they would be able to freely reject you. Essentially, your question becomes "Why didn't God create robotic/puppet beings" because that would be the only way for that to happen. God doesn't want to control puppets/robots, it is because of his love that gives us freedom of will. It's logically impossible for someone to make someone do something freely, like saying there can be a round square or a married bachelor. "God's being all-powerful does not mean that He can bring about the logically impossible-indeed, there is no such "thing" as the logically impossible. It's just an inconsistent combination of words" Now if you say that He CAN do the logically impossible like make round squares or married bachelors, then the problem of suffering goes away right before us, because then the "logical impossibility" of God being perfect and not making something perfect is something that God can do if God can do the logically impossible.
As for something "creating" God, again you don't understand who God is. God is eternal, he has no cause, he is a necessary being. Take for example the beginning of the universe, everything in this universe has a cause (nothing just *happens*), so therefor the universe must also have a cause, and since time and matter are part of the universe, the cause of the universe must be beyond time and space, no beginning or end because time originated at the Big Bang and so time didn't exist before it. It follows then that God is beyond time and so therefor never "began".
 
That's always the answer isn't it, god can do anyhting. God could be his own grandpa if he wanted to.

And just for the record, just because a being is free doesn't mean it's automatically imperfect. You can be free to do what you want, but always do it perfectly. So just because "god" gave man free will doesn't automatically mean that's why we aren't perfect. It just means it's all BS and that my point still stands, why would a perfect being create something which is imperfect?

And for that matter, why would a creator create something without giving it an essence or purpose? See if god is the great architect, why would he build something giving it a reason to be? Oh but that is the imperfection of god sneaking out, his creation has no purpose.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Orly?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD? - Exodus 4:11

So god is the one who creates evil..and who afflicts people with deafness, blindness, and mental illness, etc. He is the author of life, which means he intentionally created life forms like parasites, the AIDS virus, cancer cells, and every other form of natural evil we can think of. You call these acts of a compassionate being?

Wonderful...So the reason he killed 300,000 people in the Haitian earthquake, or 260,000 people in the 2004 Indian tsunami was to make more Christians? Fantastic plan. Except it doesn't seem to be working in India at least. Their Hindu population is at an all time high while the Christians have remained stagnant. Besides, if sending disease and disaster is the only way god knows how to "bring more people into his kingdom", isn't this an argument AGAINST the idea that he is omnipotent? If the best idea that an infinitely powerful being could come up with to make more Christians is to destroy countless families, that is rather pathetic. Only a limited god would need to use such crude methods.

Why exactly? An omnipotent god cannot be injured, so why would he need to kill imperfect beings for being imperfect? Why is he so vengeful? Why does he experience petty human emotions like anger and jealousy? Most importantly (you still haven't answered this)..Why is it impossible for him to forgive people without giving them an ultimatum? Again I ask: If you offended me in some way, and I told you that the only way you could earn forgiveness was by murdering an innocent animal or person as a sacrifice, what would your opinion be on my mental state?[/QUOTE]
First I think we should put the verses in context. The first is referring to ancient Israel, and how they turned away from God, and then God used disasters and then brought them back to him. For example, when they were sent into slavery into Babylon because of their betrayal of Him, they came back to Him pleading for His help, and He gave it to them. This is one of the many times Israel turned away from God and then God showed them how foolish they are into thinking that there is something better than Him.
For the second verse, God is talking to Moses and telling him to go before the Israelites and tell them that God has sent him. God is reassuring Moses that He will be there with him when Moses makes his announcement, and that he should not worry about what will happen, because God is on His side. Again referring to the problem of evil, our purpose in life is not to be happy, it is to know God. For the blind, deaf, and leapers, you seem to think that God must hate them or not care about them because he let those things come upon them. Among other things about the problem of evil, that is totally opposite of what God really thinks, again if you would have read the Bible you would understand. For it is written "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousnesses for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of their righteousnesses, for theirs is the kingdom of God" Matthew 5: 3-10. And also "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets" Luke 6 20-23. So you see even though there is suffering now, it will all be undone eventually, that's God promise. Jesus is saying in those verses that all of the suffering will be worth it in the end, that there is a purpose for it, and God especially loves those who go through. He prefers them, the poor, the weak, the disabled, the young, all throughout the Bible. Ones you would think that God "forgets" about, are actually the ones that he holds the dearest. When do you see people turn to God? When they are in trouble, when they are hurt, and so on. It shows people what the world shouldn't be like, and that in the end it will all be worth it. Take for example if someone had a dream that their family died, they would feel so horrible throughout the dream that their loved ones are dead and that they are no longer with them. But when they wake up, there is a huge amount of relief when they find their family is actually alive. They take up a new appreciation of their family and the ones they thought they lost. This is how it's going to be, evil is not going to be ended, but it will be undone with every wrong and evil was done.
He needs to judge imperfect beings because they have fallen into sin, he does not tolerate sin because it is not of him, it is not his will, and it is against who he is. The "petty human emotions" that he expresses are not like human emotions. When a human feels jealousy, he wants something from somebody else for his own sake, same with anger, it's for the human's own sake. That, again, is not who God is, he doesn't get angry or jealous for his own sake, he does it for OUR sake. He gets jealous because we would be turning away from Him because He knows it is in our best interest to be with Him and know Him. He gets angry for the same reason, because we turn away and He knows that's not the best for us.

Ancient Israelites had to give sacrifices because sin has only one punishment, death. Something has to die in order for the sin to be absolved, that is the nature, pattern, and consequence of sin. As for your second question on forgiveness, for you to owe me forgiveness of something means something has to be given up. These burdens that have to be given up are different from between a man and a man, and a man and God. Between a man and a man, the thing that would have to be given up is something that fits the circumstances (physical circumstance: Monetary or labor punishment but then again it would depend on case to case) (emotional circumstances: giving up a right to seek personal "justice" or to make things right, like if I called you a name and you forgave me, you would give up the right to call me names or feel hatred and such against me). But then, between God and man, that is an entirely different case, for there aren't to be anymore sacrifices to be made! God forgave us and took upon the burden himself, paying it in full, so that our sins would be payed for and therefor we would be closer to Him.
 
[quote name='Clak']That's always the answer isn't it, god can do anyhting. God could be his own grandpa if he wanted to.

And just for the record, just because a being is free doesn't mean it's automatically imperfect. You can be free to do what you want, but always do it perfectly. So just because "god" gave man free will doesn't automatically mean that's why we aren't perfect. It just means it's all BS and that my point still stands, why would a perfect being create something which is imperfect?

And for that matter, why would a creator create something without giving it an essence or purpose? See if god is the great architect, why would he build something giving it a reason to be? Oh but that is the imperfection of god sneaking out, his creation has no purpose.[/QUOTE]

God could not be his own grandpa, that would be logically impossible as I have gone over. I never said that because something was free it is therefor imperfect. But because we are free we are susceptible to sin and the consequences of sin. At first man did not sin, but then when sin got introduced to us we became imperfect. God gave us the freedom to chose, at first we were perfect, but then became imperfect due to that free will. His love is why he created us, to have a relationship with us. God's purpose for us is to get to know him, because only then will we be fulfilled.
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh, now you're worried about logic?[/QUOTE]

I never said I wasn't worried about logic. I said God cannot do the logically impossible, which would entail that He can do the logically possible. Logic has been one of the greatest assets of my faith. From the creation of the universe to the historicity of Jesus Christ, logic has told me that they are both true.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']I never said I wasn't worried about logic. I said God cannot do the logically impossible, which would entail that He can do the logically possible. Logic has been one of the greatest assets of my faith. From the creation of the universe to the historicity of Jesus Christ, logic has told me that they are both true.[/QUOTE]

There's a Greek myth where an uncatchable fox is chased by a dog that can catch anything. After a while Zeus gets frustrated and turns them both to stone. Gotta say - the Greeks did have a sense of humor.
 
Agnostic here
The insecure atheists who have to shove their point of view against the throat of others really me sick.
They are no better than your extremist religious person.

All in all,
i hate extremism.
It's good to believe in something.
but i hate it when either side just feels the need to HAVE to go out of their way to "prove" something they both fail to understand.

ugh
 
Hate is a very extreme word don't you think?

All kidding aside you have a point. It's always good to be able to think critically about your own beliefs in addition to others'.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Are you kidding? We finally got a bite from a real Xtian. LYNCH TIME!!!

Oh, I'm done responding since I'm sure unlucky is beyond the reach of reason. Bottom line: Christianity makes no sense, and repeating the same old canards and ancient creeds aint gonna change that.

[/thread][/QUOTE]

Reason is the entire point of why I am a Christian, for I have "reasonable faith" as some might call it. Christianity to you may seem to not make any sense, but then again for what I can ascertain, you don't seem to even know what Christians believe or why we believe it. I for one think atheism makes no sense, and that changing their old "arguments" isn't going to change anything. In atheism, there is no purpose for anything, thus no point for anything, no value in anything, no morality in anything, and thus nothing. To live like an atheist is to live one of sadness and despair if they are consistent with their beliefs, for they know nothing they do matters, and ultimately has no meaning or effect on anything. There are also no good arguments for atheism. I ask and I ask people for reasons why I should believe there is no God, they give me the same "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" line, when that statement is simply illogical, for if one does not have evidence of something, that does not necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. It wouldn't even work practically, say I accuse somebody of committing a crime but have no evidence of it, that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do it, what he would need is an alibi, proof that he didn't do what he was accused of doing. Since that seems to be the only argument given, I don't see any reason why I should stop believing in what I do since the argument of objection doesn't even work. The other assertion I hear is that they don't have to prove anything because the burden of proof is on the theist, which is just laughable because if someone makes a claim, they better have evidence to back it up, otherwise why should I believe in an evidence lacking assertion? Finally, another thing that I hear from atheists is that they cannot prove a negative and so therefore they are exempt from giving any evidence. But they themselves said they have no evidence of their assertion, so again why should anyone care or believe what they have to say?
Anyway I'm still waiting for the lynching, have yet to be convinced by any assertion made or "proof" of biblical contradictory or any claim that God is immoral.
Also it would seem that one of the first unwritten rules for forums is that a thread doesn't end just because you write "/thread" or have you not learned that yet?
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']Reason is the entire point of why I am a Christian, for I have "reasonable faith" as some might call it. Christianity to you may seem to not make any sense, but then again for what I can ascertain, you don't seem to even know what Christians believe or why we believe it. I for one think atheism makes no sense, and that changing their old "arguments" isn't going to change anything. In atheism, there is no purpose for anything, thus no point for anything, no value in anything, no morality in anything, and thus nothing. To live like an atheist is to live one of sadness and despair if they are consistent with their beliefs, for they know nothing they do matters, and ultimately has no meaning or effect on anything. There are also no good arguments for atheism. I ask and I ask people for reasons why I should believe there is no God, they give me the same "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" line, when that statement is simply illogical, for if one does not have evidence of something, that does not necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. It wouldn't even work practically, say I accuse somebody of committing a crime but have no evidence of it, that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do it, what he would need is an alibi, proof that he didn't do what he was accused of doing. Since that seems to be the only argument given, I don't see any reason why I should stop believing in what I do since the argument of objection doesn't even work. The other assertion I hear is that they don't have to prove anything because the burden of proof is on the theist, which is just laughable because if someone makes a claim, they better have evidence to back it up, otherwise why should I believe in an evidence lacking assertion? Finally, another thing that I hear from atheists is that they cannot prove a negative and so therefore they are exempt from giving any evidence. But they themselves said they have no evidence of their assertion, so again why should anyone care or believe what they have to say?
Anyway I'm still waiting for the lynching, have yet to be convinced by any assertion made or "proof" of biblical contradictory or any claim that God is immoral.
Also it would seem that one of the first unwritten rules for forums is that a thread doesn't end just because you write "/thread" or have you not learned that yet?[/QUOTE]

We told you, your God can control everything, yet allows bad things to happen to people. Either your God is either disinterested in what happens to his creations or is unusually cruel. Of course, your response is that he has a plan we don't understand. Also, your basing all your knowledge on a book that was written by man, even if it was apparently the word of your God, it was still written by men, so it's open to interpretation. I honestly don't really care if you believe in God, but I'm pretty sure the Christian interpretation of God is wrong.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']In atheism, there is no purpose for anything, thus no point for anything, no value in anything, no morality in anything, and thus nothing. To live like an atheist is to live one of sadness and despair if they are consistent with their beliefs, for they know nothing they do matters, and ultimately has no meaning or effect on anything. [/QUOTE]

And you complain that atheists don't understand Christianity. Oh boy. To say that you are clueless would be too generous.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']I for one think atheism makes no sense, and that changing their old "arguments" isn't going to change anything. In atheism, there is no purpose for anything, thus no point for anything, no value in anything, no morality in anything, and thus nothing. To live like an atheist is to live one of sadness and despair if they are consistent with their beliefs, for they know nothing they do matters, and ultimately has no meaning or effect on anything. There are also no good arguments for atheism. I ask and I ask people for reasons why I should believe there is no God, they give me the same "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" line, when that statement is simply illogical, for if one does not have evidence of something, that does not necessarily mean that it doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

If you like logic so much why do you refuse to use it yourself?

You think atheism makes no sense because you've seemingly made up your own definition for "atheist" which is not the normal given definition, simply to suit your own delusions.

An atheist is someone that does not believe in god or gods. None of your other illogical nonsense follows from that. Wake up.

As for you believing in god, if you wanted to logically follow your belief and remain consistent, you would also argue for the existence of Santa Claus or my dancing unicorns right? If not, why not? Why god but no dancing unicorns?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='ShockandAww']If you like logic so much why do you refuse to use it yourself?

You think atheism makes no sense because you've seemingly made up your own definition for "atheist" which is not the normal given definition, simply to suit your own delusions.

An atheist is someone that does not believe in god or gods. None of your other illogical nonsense follows from that. Wake up.

As for you believing in god, if you wanted to logically follow your belief and remain consistent, you would also argue for the existence of Santa Claus or my dancing unicorns right? If not, why not? Why god but no dancing unicorns?[/QUOTE]
Yes someone who is atheist is one that believes there is no God or gods. but if there is no God or gods, then the universe has no purpose, there are no objective moral values, there is no real purpose for anyone, nothing matters. Why should it? The universe will implode on itself eventually, making everything done utterly pointless. There would be no difference in what happens today in light of tomorrow because in the end it'll end up the same. I'm not sure you understand the implications atheism holds.
On the existence of Santa Claus, it could mean two things. Do you refer to Saint Nicholas of Turkey? He existed. Although the Santa Claus that is in pop culture today does not exist, we would see evidence of him. For example, we would see warehouses in the north pole, reindeer flying, a large sleigh and so forth. Second, can unicorns even dance? There are no fossil records to prove that there are any unicorns, and it has been shown that people got unicorns from narwhal horns.
But we do have considerable evidence that God exists. For example, everything that began to exist has a cause, since the universe began to exist it follows that it has a cause. But what could have caused the universe into being? It would have to be something beyond space and time obviously, something powerful enough to create everything in existence. Something that exists necessarily of its own nature. There are two types of things that would exist necessarily, an unembodied mind, or numbers. But numbers can't cause anything to happen or be created, so therefore it would have to be an unembodied mind.
 
lucky, I don't have the time to respond to all of your stuff..but I will address one of your bad assumptions. Let me ask you something. Can you name any commodity on earth that becomes LESS valuable as it's rarity increases? We tend to see the opposite in all cases. The fact that human life is rare, finite, and fleeting is precisely what gives it value. It becomes MORE valuable to us precisely because it will not last forever. If this were just some type of "rehearsal" in preparation for the main event (infinity), our existence here becomes infinitely devalued. On the other hand if this really is the one shot we get, every day spent living becomes priceless. Every good action that benefits humanity becomes much more praiseworthy, and every wicked action becomes much more intolerable. In the long run, we all die..this is true. One of the virtues of atheism is that we prefer to live in truth and accept the implications of living in a natural universe..even when they aren't particularly welcome. In other words...We may not like the idea that we will cease to exist one day, but given the fact that all evidence gathered to date indicates a physical brain is necessary for consciousness, we are willing to accept that when the brain dies, our consciousness ceases to be. If any evidence of spirits or "souls" is made available, we will reexamine that conclusion. Until then, the persistent belief in such things becomes no more than wishful thinking.

On the issue of "purpose".. I've never really understood this slavish mentality from theists..the idea that without a divine big brother guiding your life and imposing a purpose on you from above, everything you experience becomes meaningless. This makes no sense. The fact that purpose is not imposed on us does not mean we can't create our own purpose here and now. If you discovered tomorrow morning that Jesus never existed, would you suddenly not care if your close friends and family members were murdered? Would you suddenly lose interest in learning new things and in the recreational activities you enjoy? Would your loved ones become less important to you if you discovered that you wouldn't be with them forever?? If you honestly think about this for a moment, I think you will come to the opposite conclusion. As I said earlier, the fact that life doesn't last forever is precisely why you should treasure it. The fact that you've only got one shot to live, learn, and love means you better make the most of it now. You don't need a cosmic daddy to impose meaning on you. Carl Sagan said if you want your life to have meaning "do something meaningful".

P.S. As to your other points, I will simply direct you to the sites below. Every argument for god/gods has been thoroughly refuted (including your attempt at WLC's Kalam argument)...and there are several good arguments against the existence of such beings. Here ya go:

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/u/AtheologyReligionCriticism.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='unluckynumber11']
But we do have considerable evidence that God exists. For example, everything that began to exist has a cause, since the universe began to exist it follows that it has a cause. But what could have caused the universe into being? It would have to be something beyond space and time obviously, something powerful enough to create everything in existence. Something that exists necessarily of its own nature. There are two types of things that would exist necessarily, an unembodied mind, or numbers. But numbers can't cause anything to happen or be created, so therefore it would have to be an unembodied mind.[/QUOTE]

Even if there is a God, I still don't think it's the God you describe.
 
[quote name='StealthNinjaScyther']And you complain that atheists don't understand Christianity. Oh boy. To say that you are clueless would be too generous.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that's just....wow. I didn't know I was living in despair.

edit- Damn he's really drank the kool-aid.
 
I can't believe I'm taking the bait on this, but I'm getting pissed off. You think there is some creator force behind everything, yet what kind of creator creates something and doesn't giveit a purpose? Just answer this, why are we here? And any answer along the lines of "To worship god" is not acceptable. The fact is that it makes no logical sense (and I mean real logic, not what you think is logic) for a creator to create something with no purpose.

Besides that, any creator god would have to have been created by a greator creator, and so on and so forth. Even the big bang didn't come from nowhere, some sort of natural reaction would have had to have happened.
 
[quote name='Clak'] what kind of creator creates something and doesn't giveit a purpose? [/QUOTE]

We could be some great work of art or an experiment of free will. There are plenty of reasons to create things that do not have a practical purpose.
 
Art can have a purpose though, an experiment in free will would have a purpose as well. I'll say it again, it makes no sense for the creator of anything to not give purpose to it's creation, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it's illogical. And since this person claims to understand logic, I would expect them to agree.
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']But we do have considerable evidence that God exists. For example, everything that began to exist has a cause, since the universe began to exist it follows that it has a cause. But what could have caused the universe into being? It would have to be something beyond space and time obviously, something powerful enough to create everything in existence. Something that exists necessarily of its own nature. There are two types of things that would exist necessarily, an unembodied mind, or numbers. But numbers can't cause anything to happen or be created, so therefore it would have to be an unembodied mind.[/QUOTE]


You realize this isn't evidence, right? This is "I don't understand, so... God."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top