Clover Studios is no more.

Cell- shaded games sell fine in the U.S. as long as it's a proven franchise(released by a big name company). Dragon Quest 8 sold quite well. Zelda WW sold very well. Viewtiful Joe also sold pretty damn well. If the next GTA or Halo was CS they would also sell well.

Spades22 is 100% right about what Americans want. Sad but true. Video Games now are about what your friend has which is why the Shit Box sells decently.
 
[quote name='Kendal']I didn't know FOX ran Capcom.[/QUOTE]

I can't stop laughing at this. :)



I'm very sad to see Clover dissolve, but I do agree with Capcom's decision; it was definitely the right move. Still, it's sad...I hope we see more awesome games come from ex-Clover people someday.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Mega Man 9 already exists...it's called Rockman & Forte / Megaman & Bass. Maybe you meant 10?

Also, to people saying that Viewtiful Joe sold poorly: It became a Player's Choice on Gamecube, and spawned a TV show. It couldn't have done THAT badly.


And Shipwreck, just a couple more caveats: You forgot to mention Dragon Quest VIII, which is cel-shaded, but sold fantastically.[/quote]

Yeah, but it is Dragon Quest.
 
Capcom should've sold them to Nintendo... Clover + Wii + DS = Godsend.

(Yes, I realize their first DS game sucked but I think they could've done better if they used an original property rather than one that's already established.)

This is sad news. As much as I hate Capcom for doing this, I can't blame them since they only did what was logical financially. This is the price of games becoming mainstream.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']The game won't sell well in the U.S.

I can't be the only one that can look at games prior to release and tell that they aren't going to sell... can I?

Things going against Okami selling well in the U.S.

1. The name Okami. This means nothing to Americans. It does not make one want to pick up the box, nor does it give one any idea what the game is about. (See also Otogi, Otogi 2, Odama)

2. The game looks cartoony. Cel shaded games do not sell in the States. Wind Waker gets a pass because people want to play Zelda, but even so, look at all the flack that game got due to it's art style. (See also Jet Set Radio Future, Viewtiful Joe, XIII)

3. It's a game where you fight as a wolf using caligraphy?!? This does not appeal to American audiences. I can't even come up with a see also here.

4. Bad timing. Everybody is getting ready for the big franchise releases just around the corner. To be honest, Okami actually probably couldn't have released at a much better time (maybe a little earlier in the summer would help), but if it was released any later it would have just gotten swallowed up by the big sellers for the holidays.


And this isn't the type of game that sells huge numbers at Wal-Mart. This is a video game for people that are really into video games (like people who visit this site), but it doesn't have crossover appeal outside of the people that care if a game is "critically acclaimed".


[Disclaimer - I own Okami and I am going to start playing it tomorrow. I got it for $15 out of pocket though, because I didn't want to wait until February when this drops to $20.][/QUOTE]



There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.
 
[quote name='Apossum']There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I'll agree with all of that, although this starts to get into more of the differences between the companies, rather than how well a game will sell in the States. The main difference between those smaller companies and Capcom though is expectations. Capcom widely distributes it's games in massive numbers to all retailers and wants blockbuster sales numbers which requires infiltrating more that just the core group of gamers. They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies that generally stay in the same genre RPG/Strategy games and they have loyal followings among those types of gamers. They ship smaller quantities of games and have obviously found a way to make money while not selling a huge quantity of games. They know their niche, they know how many games they expect to sell, and they don't produce an absurd amount of product that won't sell. Nippon Ichi worries me sometimes though as they seem to be putting out a lot of product that sits on shelves for awhile now. All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.

Tecmo is a little different from those three as they have some titles that cross over to the mainstream like Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden. They know those games are going to sell like crazy, but they temper their expectations and their production runs of titles like the Fatal Frame series. They've got a much different approach than what Capcom does and as pointed out, a much smaller group of core franchises to handle.
 
[quote name='Scorch'](it's morons, not morans.)[/QUOTE]
He's the one they call "Dr. Killjoy".
 
[quote name='Apossum']There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.[/QUOTE]

I don't know... do you have sales numbers that indicate Viewtiful Joe failed? Like it was said, it went player choice for the Gamecube, it got its own anime, and Clover envisioned the games as a trilogy... they were going to make sequels whether Capcom told them to or not, so bringing up the fact that they were "forced" to make sequels is kind of ridiculous. Clover obviously wanted sequels since the first and second game each blatantly tied into a sequel.

I mean, Viewtiful Joe got TONS of accolades and LOTS of praise, more than any other game Clover ever did, so to say it "didn't really catch on", well, that will require proof.

I mean, Clover released it's games on a decent timeframe... VJ 2 came out in 2004, the VJ games for PSP / DS came out in 2005, and Okami and Godhand came out in 2006. We don't really have evidence as to how large their team was, how much other Capcom studios were helping them, anything like that.

Capcom may whore out its games but its mostly confined to sequels these days, and that's it. They occasionally experimented with SSBM type games but threw that aside after it failed with Onimusha and Viewtiful Joe.

I mean, imo, Clover made one really good game, and that was Okami, and that won't even sell in the US. The only reason it would have sold better if Atlus or someone made it was because everyone would have thought it would be rare and would have run out and snatched it up.

It should have come out during the summer, but now it will be quickly forgotten as Bully, FFXII, and the PS3 / Wii draw near.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Capcom isn't dissolving Clover just because they are bored or hate them, it's probably that Capcom invested alot of money into Clover and they aren't really making it back, and that's nobody's fault except for the game buyer. I liken it to the whole Nintendo / Rare thing awhile ago, and how Nintendo just decided to let them go (best decision they ever made, probably, as Rare hasn't had a good game in a loooooooooong time).
 
[quote name='shipwreck']They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.
.[/QUOTE]

I think Dead Rising changed that, and I have a feeling Lost Planet will too. They seem to realize what will sell over here now, and that is action games, like DMC, Dead Rising, etc.

Most companies wouldn't even have taken a chance on bringing Okami out over here... if Capcom does one thing right, is that it brings almost everything it makes out to the US. The same can't be said about alot of companies.
 
[quote name='LostRoad']Yeah, but it is Dragon Quest.[/QUOTE]
Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.[/QUOTE]

It had a ton of commercials and came with a FF11 demo.
 
[quote name='-Never4ever-']Make that; original games that DIDN'T suck.

I hope this doesn't mean no VJ3 or Okami 2 :(

BTW VJ2 wasn't horrible. Sure, it wasn't VJ1, but it was still pretty good. Can't speak for Godhand though.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe Clover was ever planning on making an Okami 2, as it was supposed to be just a single game IP.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']The game won't sell well in the U.S.

I can't be the only one that can look at games prior to release and tell that they aren't going to sell... can I?



[/quote]

Preachin' to the choir Ship--I was addressing the guy who was refuting my post. Yeah, basically I was agreeing with you and asking him to show me hard numbers before making the leap from gamestore experience to national sales report.

More from Kotaku about the details.

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/mikami/capcom-on-clover-closing-207287.php
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.[/QUOTE]DQVIII was still not as big of a success Square Enix wanted. It wasn't even listed on NPDs top sale charts from what I remember, when it came out. The game definitely sold better than any DQ game in the U.S., but it was still far more successful in Japan and even Europe (in Europe, sold 600k in less than a month).
 
I have so much respect for Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Agetec (haven't heard anything from them in a while), and the other smaller companies. They only own about 5% of the market but they only produce quality stuff which is not determined by the MSRP or the review scores of the game. Clover Studios should have disbanded from Capcom and formed their own company. With talent like that, they'd be able to find fundings in no time.
 
[quote name='nintendokid']I have so much respect for Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Agetec (haven't heard anything from them in a while), and the other smaller companies. They only own about 5% of the market but they only produce quality stuff which is not determined by the MSRP or the review scores of the game. Clover Studios should have disbanded from Capcom and formed their own company. With talent like that, they'd be able to find fundings in no time.[/QUOTE]

But with sales figures of their games, who would want to publish their games? Maybe someone like Atlus, since they publish a lot of stuff from smaller companies. But other companies want developers who make large profits and properties that are sequel prone.

BTW, Okami's September sales were... 87K according to the NPD. Absolutely amazing how masterpieces like this hardly get noticed while shit like Dirge of Cerberus still sells 100K two months after its release.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=7053
 
[quote name='Vinny']But with sales figures of their games, who would want to publish their games? Maybe someone like Atlus, since they publish a lot of stuff from smaller companies. But other companies want developers who make large profits and properties that are sequel prone.

BTW, Okami's September sales were... 87K according to the NPD. Absolutely amazing how masterpieces like this hardly get noticed while shit like Dirge of Cerberus still sells 100K two months after its release.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=7053[/QUOTE]

It's a good start but I think sales numbers will be cut in 1/2 or more for next month... you also have to compare Okami, a new release, to all the older games on that list that are still selling high numbers compared to a new release.

Valkyrie Profile 2 failed big time... I'm REALLY surprised to see Enchanted Arms so high up on the list.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.[/QUOTE]


DQ has become a major franchise because its Square Enix now, the name square will attract millions of final fantasy fans who were looking for a major rpg fix. If you look at it, the last normal final fantasy hadnt come out since FFX, so this was bound to sell well(esp with FFXII demo).


As for clover, good riddance...for capcom at least. I think people are forgetting that Capcom is a business. I dont think they care if VJ became a players choice or if Okami is critically acclaimed.

Companies only know two things, red and green. You can sell 500 million copies of a game, but if it doesnt make a profit(green) you are only losing money(red). If you continue being in the red, you will find yourself out of business. I think Capcom made a smart move in cutting their losses before they got worse, even though i personally liked Clover games(GH looks like it sucks though).

The thing that sucks is that games like these dont appeal to the normal gamer, only those type that visit sites like CAG as someone mentioned earlier. At the same time, the type of person to visit this site is also the type to wait and get the game cheap.


Long story short:
Original games are very hit or miss, which is why we wait on a verdict and a price drop, but i bet most of these same people will be getting the new Zelda on launch without so much as looking at a review. So yes we are as much to blame as capcom is and clover is. It just didnt work out.
 
So, how do we take back the train? Because now, the train has become the "Grand Madden Auto Fantasy Turismo" and we have no choice but to take a ticket...or get run over.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']Valkyrie Profile 2 failed big time... I'm REALLY surprised to see Enchanted Arms so high up on the list.[/QUOTE]Well, the game was released kind of late in the month, so I won't judge sales until October. I didn't even see DDR SuperNOVA listed and normally the DDR games sell around 400k. I'm thinking the game should still get 100k.

As for Enchanted Arms, it doesn't surprise me it's selling. It's the only JRPG on teh 360 right now, where most everyone who has some interest into them bought it (A friend of mine who has a PS2, but is kind of a PS2 hater, won't buy a single good PS2 RPG but will buy them for 360 and Cube). If Enchanted Arms was on PS2 (and let's say it still looked impressive), it would sell less than 50k I'd bet (PS2 is saturated in RPGs). Once more JRPGs are out, I expect sales to drop. The first JRPG on PS2 (I'm not going to inculde Evergrace, Orphen, etc.) Dark Cloud sold 500k, and most PS2 RPGs didn't even sell that high, despite being much better.
 
[quote name='nintendokid']Simply put, Mikami and the others felt that RE4 shouldn't have been released on the PS2.

A true artist never sells a painting and then proceed to paint the same piece....[/QUOTE]
At least, not on an inferior canvas.

[quote name='shipwreck']Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.[/quote]
With the exception of Atlus which does a few different type games, NI and Koei do save enormous costs by cutting man-hours in development with simple updating/ tweaking of their engines and/or re-skinning BG/FG/character models.

Of course it's after 2am so I'm sure I just said the above incoherently. Take it with a grain of something. I'll be having tea in Strells backyard.
 
Well, that blows. I remember buying VJ off my friend a couple of months after it came out, and almost putting my face through the TV due to the game's difficulty. Guess I should pick up Okami as a final send-off. Thanks for the memories, Clover.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Yep, I'll agree with all of that, although this starts to get into more of the differences between the companies, rather than how well a game will sell in the States. The main difference between those smaller companies and Capcom though is expectations. Capcom widely distributes it's games in massive numbers to all retailers and wants blockbuster sales numbers which requires infiltrating more that just the core group of gamers. They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies that generally stay in the same genre RPG/Strategy games and they have loyal followings among those types of gamers. They ship smaller quantities of games and have obviously found a way to make money while not selling a huge quantity of games. They know their niche, they know how many games they expect to sell, and they don't produce an absurd amount of product that won't sell. Nippon Ichi worries me sometimes though as they seem to be putting out a lot of product that sits on shelves for awhile now. All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.

Tecmo is a little different from those three as they have some titles that cross over to the mainstream like Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden. They know those games are going to sell like crazy, but they temper their expectations and their production runs of titles like the Fatal Frame series. They've got a much different approach than what Capcom does and as pointed out, a much smaller group of core franchises to handle.[/QUOTE]


Fair enough. I think Clover could've been managed and cultivated better, balancing dev costs and production, so as to gain a loyal following like those other companies. Of course, we wouldn't have Okami as it is today without a 4 year dev cycle and absurd amounts of cash thrown into it.

One big problem with capcom is that they over-produced an absurd amount of product-- I mean every store has like 5000 viewtiful joe games sitting on the shelves, clearanced out at $5. to me that's a sign that they were overconfident in clover.

[quote name='roufuss']I mean, imo, Clover made one really good game, and that was Okami, and that won't even sell in the US. The only reason it would have sold better if Atlus or someone made it was because everyone would have thought it would be rare and would have run out and snatched it up.

It should have come out during the summer, but now it will be quickly forgotten as Bully, FFXII, and the PS3 / Wii draw near.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Capcom isn't dissolving Clover just because they are bored or hate them, it's probably that Capcom invested alot of money into Clover and they aren't really making it back, and that's nobody's fault except for the game buyer. I liken it to the whole Nintendo / Rare thing awhile ago, and how Nintendo just decided to let them go (best decision they ever made, probably, as Rare hasn't had a good game in a loooooooooong time). [/quote]

i don't think people buy atlus games just because they think they'll become rare. A few internet game fans may do that...

i never said they were bored with them :p I know they've thrown tons of cash into them, I'm saying the team seemed like it was managed poorly. I have no evidence for that, other than the various VJ games for all systems rotting on shelves nationwide.
 
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