Do you believe in abortion?

[quote name='U2K Tha Greate$t']You do understand we are talking about killing them before they are actually born right?

We aint suppose to be talking about once they have them, what or how they rise up them up, or are skipping ahead on adoption?[/QUOTE]

I am well aware of what abortion is thank you. I'm talking about the reasons why some people should have abortions. In some cases the child is better off not being born, rather than being born into a life of suffering.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Overgeneralization, not all religions do that. Some religions serve their purpose without that. Those negative aspects are more the flaws of individual religious followers or beliefs, however widespread they can become. They aren't essential to religion.[/quote]

Religion demands a degree of conformit to validate itself, without this it won't last a generation.


That comment was not suggesting the accuracy of their understanding.
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Then it really isn't an understand of the world is it?;)

Mass lies can be very helpful for a society but they are still lies.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
Then it really isn't an understand of the world is it?;)

Mass lies can be very helpful for a society but they are still lies.[/QUOTE]

It's hard to call it a lie when those who spread it actually believe it. It may be wrong, but not really a lie.

And understanding something doesn't mean you got it right. People used to know the sun revolved around the earth, but they were still wrong.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It's hard to call it a lie when those who spread it actually believe it. It may be wrong, but not really a lie.

And understanding something doesn't mean you got it right. People used to know the sun revolved around the earth, but they were still wrong.[/QUOTE]

See there you go confusing the word know with the word believed. People believed the sun revolved around the world when they had almost nothing in the way of proof.

And I use the word lie because at some point in time someone made it up.
 
[quote name='Starwishi'] In some cases the child is better off not being born, rather than being born into a life of suffering.[/QUOTE]

What? First off everyone who is born into this world suffers, i suffer and i'm rich and in hollywood, if other people suffer, we all should suffer at some point in this life. But we also can have a great life, so its best if someone is having a child, bring him or her into the world and if that person does not want to rise their child, just give the child to adoption and let someone else rise him or her up.

Me and my wife Do not want to bring children into this world, but we are thinking about going the adoption route, after i get in the position to change the world, we might just get 2 children and take them home to us and rise them up right.

So in all, 8 cats, 2 ducks, 2 rabbits and 2 children. :D
 
[quote name='U2K Tha Greate$t']What? First off everyone who is born into this world suffers, i suffer and i'm rich and in hollywood, if other people suffer, we all should suffer at some point in this life. But we also can have a great life, so its best if someone is having a child, bring him or her into the world and if that person does not want to rise their child, just give the child to adoption and let someone else rise him or her up.

Me and my wife Do not want to bring children into this world, but we are thinking about going the adoption route, after i get in the position to change the world, we might just get 2 children and take them home to us and rise them up right.

So in all, 8 cats, 2 ducks, 2 rabbits and 2 children. :D[/QUOTE]

If you're not prepared to raise a child yourself, dont have it. Giving a child up for adoption is not always the best option. We are in a state of over population. Whether u raise the child or not, it still has to be clothed and feed and resources are running low. People just can't continue having babies left and right and just figure they'd give them away.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']See there you go confusing the word know with the word believed. People believed the sun revolved around the world when they had almost nothing in the way of proof.

And I use the word lie because at some point in time someone made it up.[/QUOTE]

be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt; "I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:know

But religion does not need to be a lie to take hold. Every society (as far as I know) has had religion. Evidence suggest other human species had it as well. If people see seemingly supernatural occurances, lightning, rain, the sun, changes in season etc. that's very real evidence of a god, or god like force.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'] If people see seemingly supernatural occurances, lightning, rain, the sun, changes in season etc. that's very real evidence of a god, or god like force.[/QUOTE]

No it isn't, that's evidence that there exist forces that we cannot control. The god part comes out of an attempt to explain these things. Humans then take these beliefs and attempt to make them into laws and pain and suffering result.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Religion demands a degree of conformit to validate itself, without this it won't last a generation.[/QUOTE]

Some belief systems and spiritual groups are based on non-conformity, freedom, and individuality.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']No it isn't, that's evidence that there exist forces that we cannot control. The god part comes out of an attempt to explain these things. Humans then take these beliefs [/QUOTE]

That's basically what I'm saying. God comes out of the desire to explain things, and the unexplained things are the evidence that supports that belief.

and attempt to make them into laws and pain and suffering result.
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Sometimes that happens. That's a particular problem with some applications of religion, or anything adopting some religious like elements (stalin's soviet union, north korea etc.).

I believe if you took 50 secular societies and 50 moderately religious societies, you'd have less suffering and less conflict in the secular states, to an extent. Quite often then, such violence uses religion as a means, there would be plenty of other reasons to engage in wars and repression without religion. Even if the leaders of the violence genuinely believe their religious justification, that doesn't mean that other events of similar scale wouldn't have occured. There's also the issue of countries that substitute the state for religion (Though you could argue that the state is the religion), and that can be even more deadly.

Basically, I think religions true role in conflicts is overstated. Religion in society is so pervasive that practically any ill can be blamed on it. I think if we were somehow able to completely rid the world of religion, you'd be suprised how many conflicts still arise for completely secular reasons. They may be different conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']That's basically what I'm saying. God comes out of the desire to explain things, and the unexplained things are the evidence that supports that belief.[/quote]

Which isn't actually an increase in knowledge of the world around them, but a wall of shit the people have put up to protect them from it.


Sometimes that happens. That's a particular problem with some applications of religion, or anything adopting some religious like elements (stalin's soviet union, north korea etc.).

I believe if you took 50 secular societies and 50 moderately religious societies, you'd have less suffering and less conflict in the secular states, to an extent. Quite often then, such violence uses religion as a means, there would be plenty of other reasons to engage in wars and repression without religion. Even if the leaders of the violence genuinely believe their religious justification, that doesn't mean that other events of similar scale wouldn't have occured. There's also the issue of countries that substitute the state for religion (Though you could argue that the state is the religion), and that can be even more deadly.

Basically, I think religions true role in conflicts is overstated. Religion in society is so pervasive that practically any ill can be blamed on it. I think if we were somehow able to completely rid the world of religion, you'd be suprised how many conflicts still arise for completely secular reasons. They may be different conflicts, but conflicts nonetheless.
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I think the conflicts brought about in a world without religion would be much more meaningful. It makes perfect sense to fight over farmland, resources and boarders, but fights over god are meaningless.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']
I think the conflicts brought about in a world without religion would be much more meaningful. It makes perfect sense to fight over farmland, resources and boarders, but fights over god are meaningless.[/QUOTE]

War is war, whether its fought over god or oil, it still has the same end result. One isn't any better than the other.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']War is war, whether its fought over god or oil, it still has the same end result. One isn't any better than the other.[/QUOTE]

Not true, resources are necessary to survive; those who will not fight for them will die. Survival of the fittest.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Not true, resources are necessary to survive; those who will not fight for them will die. Survival of the fittest.[/QUOTE]

That's not true in much of todays world. And the areas were it is true suffer for it.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']That's not true in much of todays world. And the areas were it is true suffer for it.[/QUOTE]

It's true, except the fittest can carry a lot of baggage with them because of the quantities of resources they've managed to accumulate. The only thing that's changed is that the fittest isn't on an individual basis anymore.
 
[quote name='the3rdkey']Wow, you bring up abortion and almost everyone starts on bashing God. Unbelievers sure hate him.[/QUOTE]or her.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I think the conflicts brought about in a world without religion would be much more meaningful. It makes perfect sense to fight over farmland, resources and boarders, but fights over god are meaningless.[/QUOTE]

It makes perfect sense to control populations and create a world of plenty for everyone.

However humans yearn to be free, and humans aren't sensible creatures.
 
now i'm willing to keep an open mind that a being that we would consider God does exist, but what i don't get is how can people have faith in the bible when it was written by man? i heard the reason why people believe in God, because of the wonders of life, but why the bible?

and i'm talking about any religions text.
 
[quote name='triforcer']now i'm willing to keep an open mind that a being that we would consider God does exist, but what i don't get is how can people have faith in the bible when it was written by man? i heard the reason why people believe in God, because of the wonders of life, but why the bible?

and i'm talking about any religions text.[/QUOTE]
Supposedly, the bible is the word of God, or something. Hah. Cute.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Brave New World.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily - I was saying that each human should come to the conclusion that war is fruitless on their own, and put down the guns and help their neighbour instead of killing them. Unfortunately, before long that ol' prisoner's dilemma always rears it's ugly head.

Yet back to your idea of utopia as being a place where religion doesn't exist - most humans aren't sensible creatures, but sensuous creatures. We enjoy sensations, emotions, and interacting with the enviornment around us in an emotionally fulfilling (but often illogical) manner.

If one was to take a cold, alien, "objective" view of the world around them, then a 100% scientific and logical perspective of the world to the exclusion of spirituality would make sense. Yet for most people that would be divorcing the emotional, spritual side of their nature, the spark of life that makes them reach for an understanding of everything that can't be met by the self-referential system of logic or the detatched and impersonal perspective of science.
 
[quote name='camoor']Not necessarily - I was saying that each human should come to the conclusion that war is fruitless on their own, and put down the guns and help their neighbour instead of killing them. [/QUOTE]

If you honestly think there is not going to be war on this planet you might as well start packing your bags now. World peace is a farce and everything else is a theory.
 
[quote name='the3rdkey']If you honestly think there is not going to be war on this planet you might as well start packing your bags now. World peace is a farce and everything else is a theory.[/QUOTE]

Where did I say there was not going to be war?

However if you know of a better place then this planet, send me a PM - I can have my bags packed by tonight and I'm willing to hitchhike.
 
[quote name='triforcer']now i'm willing to keep an open mind that a being that we would consider God does exist, but what i don't get is how can people have faith in the bible when it was written by man? i heard the reason why people believe in God, because of the wonders of life, but why the bible?

and i'm talking about any religions text.[/QUOTE]

Religous text were written by God. All of them!
 
[quote name='camoor']the spark of life that makes them reach for an understanding of everything that can't be met by the self-referential system of logic or the detatched and impersonal perspective of science.[/QUOTE]

Belief gives this to people, religion takes it away and puts a a set of nonsensical rules in its place.
 
[quote name='triforcer']now i'm willing to keep an open mind that a being that we would consider God does exist, but what i don't get is how can people have faith in the bible when it was written by man? i heard the reason why people believe in God, because of the wonders of life, but why the bible?

and i'm talking about any religions text.[/QUOTE]

Well - you have to examine this by religion.

A central tenet of Islam is that the Koran is literally the word of the Allah, and Mohammad was simply the conduit through which Allah spoke.

The same goes for Jews, the Torah (a part of the Hebrew Bible) is the literal word of Yahweh, and Moses was just the faithful scribe (talking to a burning bush, very kabbalistic...)

Christians believe that the Torah is the literal word of their Christian god, but when he manifested as Jesus he changed his mind and decided to put out some new laws that conflicted (and therefore took precedence over) the old laws.

If you're talking about the entire Christian bible, I believe that only fundamentalists attempt to interpret all of it literally. Most Christians believe that most of their bible is inspired by their Christian god, but written by man. Therefore the stories within don't have to be interpreted as the literal truth - they could be intended to teach a spiritual or moral lesson.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Belief gives this to people, religion takes it away and puts a a set of nonsensical rules in its place.[/QUOTE]

I almost agree, however...

Many of the rules written in the sacred texts of mainstream religions make sense - so much sense that they have been interpreted and codified in law systems around the world (IE Thou shalt not steal). Others may simply have been health code regulations that got copied into the wrong book (IE Don't eat the pork, it has worms!)

Since the dark ages, the western world has been waking up to the fact that there are types of government (such as representative democracy) that are better at writing rules which safeguard a citizen's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness then a theocracy.

However this has not stopped the leaders of organized religion from trying to regain control of their sheep by playing politics with distorted interpretations of selectively edited sacred texts and misrepresentations of religious figures. I can only hope that someday people are guided more by their inner spirituality then the politics of organized religion.
 
[quote name='camoor']I almost agree, however...

Many of the rules written in the sacred texts of mainstream religions make sense - so much sense that they have been interpreted and codified in law systems around the world (IE Thou shalt not steal). Others may simply have been health code regulations that got copied into the wrong book (IE Don't eat the pork, it has worms!)[/quote]

And do you believe religion suddenly created those rules? Or that by removing religion anarchy will result? I believe society would be better off without religious involvement in laws, when people see laws only as commandments of god all they must do is lose god to break them.

I can only hope that someday people are guided more by their inner spirituality then the politics of organized religion.
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That's prehaps even more dangerious, but the results would certainly be interesting.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']And do you believe religion suddenly created those rules? Or that by removing religion anarchy will result? I believe society would be better off without religious involvement in laws, when people see laws only as commandments of god all they must do is lose god to break them.[/QUOTE]

I agree that society is better off without religious involvement in laws. Unfortunately there are still American citizens who believe this judeo-christian tradition revisionist history nonsense that some pundits peddle.

[quote name='zionoverfire']That's prehaps even more dangerious, but the results would certainly be interesting.[/QUOTE]

YES
 
[quote name='camoor']I agree that society is better off without religious involvement in laws. Unfortunately there are still American citizens who believe this judeo-christian tradition revisionist history nonsense that some pundits peddle.
[/QUOTE]

The problem really is that a force doesn't oppose them. Oh the democrats oppose them but they don't offer anything of force to replace them with, just water down versions of the same ideals.

That's really been my problem with the current republican party, it panders to both religion and capitalism and somehow has managed to keep both groups in its pocket.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']That's really been my problem with the current republican party, it panders to both religion and capitalism and somehow has managed to keep both groups in its pocket.[/QUOTE]

But what has Bushy really done for the religious right. Schaivo? It failed, and even if he had gotten them their way, big deal. Intelligent design? Again, it really matters little in the end, because we all know that it's a cheap vote and science is the way of the future.

Ban of marriage for homosexuals? At best he made a weak attempt to put up a speedbump.

If two supreme court openings hadn't happened, we might have gotten away scot free. I mean - even that Roberts character is a great deal smarter then the average conservative christian.

The fact is that the Republicans are hoodwinking conservative christians while selling out left and right to corporate interests. Want part of a nature preserve in Alaska? SOLD! Want to deregulate and grant public airways to two mega news/broadcast companies capable of crushing localized news? SOLD! Want government subsidized SUVs and virtually unrestricted internet gambling? SOLD!SOLD!SOLD!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/17/AR2005101701355.html
 
[quote name='camoor']But what has Bushy really done for the religious right. Schaivo? It failed, and even if he had gotten them their way, big deal. Intelligent design? Again, it really matters little in the end, because we all know that it's a cheap vote and science is the way of the future.

The fact is that the Republicans are hoodwinking conservative christians while selling out left and right to corporate interests. Want part of a nature preserve in Alaska? SOLD! Want to deregulate and grant public airways to two mega news/broadcast companies capable of crushing localized news? SOLD! Want government subsidized SUVs and virtually unrestricted internet gambling? SOLD!SOLD!SOLD!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/17/AR2005101701355.html[/QUOTE]

Exactly, when you put the "morals" and the money together things like this happen. Bush doesn't have to do much to slow progress, keeping the moralists happy and at the same time he can rape the economy.
 
[quote name='camoor']Well - you have to examine this by religion.

A central tenet of Islam is that the Koran is literally the word of the Allah, and Mohammad was simply the conduit through which Allah spoke.

The same goes for Jews, the Torah (a part of the Hebrew Bible) is the literal word of Yahweh, and Moses was just the faithful scribe (talking to a burning bush, very kabbalistic...)

Christians believe that the Torah is the literal word of their Christian god, but when he manifested as Jesus he changed his mind and decided to put out some new laws that conflicted (and therefore took precedence over) the old laws.

If you're talking about the entire Christian bible, I believe that only fundamentalists attempt to interpret all of it literally. Most Christians believe that most of their bible is inspired by their Christian god, but written by man. Therefore the stories within don't have to be interpreted as the literal truth - they could be intended to teach a spiritual or moral lesson.[/QUOTE]
but why do they believe those who wrote the text? it sounds like they just thought it sounded good enough for them so they just decided to believe it.
 
[quote name='triforcer']but why do they believe those who wrote the text? it sounds like they just thought it sounded good enough for them so they just decided to believe it.[/QUOTE]

Because you must realize until recently (last 100 years) religions have been isolated. This isolation helped people consider the rest of the world as barbarians who clearly didn't understand the true nature of god. Now that information, ideas and cultures have mingled more you see a lot more questioning of belief systems.
 
[quote name='triforcer']but why do they believe those who wrote the text? it sounds like they just thought it sounded good enough for them so they just decided to believe it.[/QUOTE]

Does any god speak to you? If not, I could see why you might want to take the word of a sacred text with a built-in group of followers.

Personally I like this theory, start reading about the point of "Preliminary Remarks"

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/aba1.html
 
[quote name='camoor']Does any god speak to you? If not, I could see why you might want to take the word of a sacred text with a built-in group of followers.

Personally I like this theory, start reading about the point of "Preliminary Remarks"

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/aba1.html[/QUOTE]

I never knew aleister crowley was ever called frater perdurabo. Significant occult figure, but something about him always struck me funny. A good thing about him is that he engaged in many anti-nazi activities during ww2 and argued that everyone (not just europeans or men) could be a "superman".
 
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