Downloading Music vs Pirating Games: Is there a difference?

CheapyD

CheapyD

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I thought we could add additional discussions besides ones that just focus on specific games.

Downloading Music vs Pirating Games: Is there a difference?

I'm sure a vast majority of gamers have done one or both, but are there any differences between the two?
Do you feel guilty about doing one, while the other is acceptable in your mind? Why?

If pirating games was as quick and easy as downloading music, do you think game sales would suffer?
 
A war is brewing between individuals and the copyright corporations.

Even the term "piracy" is a huge victory for them. It equates copyright infringement with theft, rape and murder.

For an example of the damage the corporations are doing, see this slashdot article.

Personally, I believe the RIAA effectively declared war on consumers the moment they decided to sue copyright infringers, and manufacture discs that appear to be CDs but do not follow the redbook standard.

Are we headed for an all-out war with games too? Hard to say; game companies traditionally use technological measures rather than legal ones to curb piracy, but with online gaming... only time will tell.
 
When I download games, I tend to feel guilty. On the other hand, I have no qualms whatsoever with downloading music. Why? I don't feel ripped off when I pay for a game.

First and foremost, it's important to note that I'm a cheapass. That goes without saying here, though. :)

When I buy a game, the amount of entertainment I get for my money is pretty dang good. When I find a game like Fallout for $1.25 (part of a combo pack at Target a few months back), I'm happy. The game keeps me busy for hours, and it seems like a great use of my money.

I tend to get much less entertainment from a CD that, in most cases, costs more than most of the games I buy. Part of it is the "there's only one good track" syndrome, where you end up realizing that most of the CD actually sucks. The thing that burns me most about CDs, though, is feeling ripped off. No matter how much I like Weezer, I'm going to be pissed when I buy a CD that has barely a half hour of music on it. If the CD is longer but full of filler, I'm going to be just as mad. I've paid for something, and I don't want crap - I want good music, damn it!

The fact that the RIAA has completely overreacted whereas the computer industry has done little is also a factor. Why would I support an organization that sues schoolgirls and grandparents for thousands of dollars of "damages" that the RIAA recoups in about a day's time?

As a result of all of the above, I only burn games occasionally, and tend to pay for most of what I want. When it comes to music, though...it's safe to say that more than half of the CDs I own aren't ones that I've paid retail for. Used, presents, burned...as long as the RIAA isn't getting my money, I'm happy.

Until music prices drop, I'm going to continue burning and downloading music.

My $.02
 
Having worked in the game industry and seeing the blood, sweat, and tears that go into making the great games that people love it really sucks to see someone just download it. For me and the games I worked on, it's almost like a personal attack... as if I was going to your house and stealing shit from it.

Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.

After having that experience I have bought every game I have played (besides rentals and such, of course) -- if a good game comes out, I want to support the developers who produced it so that more good games of that nature continue to come out. If piracy keeps growing to a point that there will be no financial incentive to producing games, developers will obviously stop. No more games = no good. Maybe the business model needs to be revisited, I don't know, clearly it will have to to crack the Chinese market.

Any way you look at the issue it is stealing something a lot of people worked very hard on. Movies and music are the same thing. I don't necessarily agree with the tactics they are employing to enforce their copyrights, and I completely understand the shitty ripped off feeling of watching or listening to crap, but it is no different than a game.

Anyways, just my thoughts.
 
BIG difference. Here's why:

Music: I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No. Plus, the fact that they've waited so long to take action really puts the RIAA in a tough spot. It falls into the category of "salutary neglect", kind of like how England lost possession of the American colonies. Besides, reports show that album sales have _increased_ since file sharing gained popularity. Kind of ironic that the recording bigwigs want to end that trend.

Games: Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy. There are two categories, though - current games and old-school games. There's really no excuse to pirate current games. I was dumb enough to burn a couple of PC games a friend lent me several years ago, thinking I was so slick, but I could have easily tried them at my friend's house without violating any laws (I am pleased to note that I ended up buying the retail versions of both those games within three weeks). I think vintage games are a bit different, however - the publisher's don't make money anymore from games on systems like the NES, Genesis, etc. Sure, the used game stores may lose business, but they don't technically hold the rights to the games, so they're not really entitled to any profit from selling them. On the other hand, if a publisher decides to rerelease these old-school games, like the Namcomuseums, you're not entitled to free roms of those games.

Conclusion: Downloading music or current games is like flicking a cigarette out your window - it's illegal, but it's unlikely that you'll be punished. Downloading games is fine unless you can buy them new. If you download music or current games that you really like, though, purchase the retail versions so you don't feel guilty.
 
[quote name='Mulliga']I don't do either. I get CDs from the local public library :).[/quote]

I do that too...and then I burn them.

To technic: I understand that it's stealing, and I've known that for years. As far as the amount of work involved...that argument doesn't seem to hold up as well for music. Looking at the credits of a game, there are usually many involved - programmers, artists, composers, department heads...the list goes on.

When it comes to CDs...who else besides the band is involved? Beyond a few behind the scenes positions (engineering, mastering, etc.), there's not very many people. Definitely not as many as work on a game.

I probably didn't make my position clear, so let's try this again. I tend not to download games because I feel guilty when I do. When I burn a CD, I don't feel bad for anyone. So, I pay for games and I don't pay for music. Simple as that.

I know that I'm probably completely wrong in my arguements. If so...prove it. I love a good debate. :twisted:
 
I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued
 
I download music, but through this downloading I have gotten into new types of music and have bought CD's. A lot does go into making a CD and if you don't pay attention to your contract, you are basically getting raped.
They are starting to put copy protection on CD's. Anthony Hamilton's CD has it but it's REALLY easy to break, you simply hold shift.
I don't really feel different about dl'ding games. They need to put more demo's out to let you try it out.
 
[quote name='st0neface']I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued[/quote]

I feel that I'm not supporting any of the developers by buying used games, so why bother? That said, I don't use emulators anyway.

As for music, although I don't DL any, I have no problem with it since you can get the same thing on a radio. (Which I do use, rather than DLing music)

As for pirating games, if me calling people all over the boards an asshole for pirating games isn't enough, well, then, you suck!
 
[quote name='technic']
Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.
[/quote]

The analogy doesn't hold. Not even close.

If I "steal your car" you no longer have your car.
 
I've been reading this interesting book called "Prisoner's Dilemma" by William Poundstone. It's about the life of John von Neumann who was one of the principal mathematicians who invented game theory. It gives an example of a case of prisoner's dilemma which fits this context exactly:

"The most common type of prisoner's dilemma in everyday life is the 'free rider dilemma.' This is a prisoner's dilemma with many, rather than just two, players. The name refers to the dilemma confronting public transit riders. It's late at night, and there's no one in the subway station. Why not just hop over the turnstiles and save yourself the fare? But remember, if everyone hopped the turnstiles, the subway system would go broke, and no one would be able to get anywhere." (Poundstone, 126)

Obviously this can be applied to pirating and many pirates use it as an excuse as to why their single case of pirating doesn't matter. He continues:

"It is the easiest thing in the world to rationalize hopping the turnstiles. What's the chance that your lost fare will bankrupt the subway system? Virtually zero ... but if everybody thinks this way ... Since there will always be people who 'get away with' not paying, the others are suckers who pay full fare but ride a poorly maintained subway because of the revenue lost to turnstile hopping." (Poundstone, 126-127)

I don't want my games to become "poorly maintainted subway"'s, hehe I know it sounds silly, so I support the game companies that make games that I like and hope that most of others will do the same thing. Anyways, the book is an interesting read and I suggest it to anyone interested in mathematical analysis of social considerations.
 
[quote name='defender']The analogy is fine if you add that you planned on selling the car once it was completed.[/quote]

Only if by "pirating games" you mean stealing CDs off the shelves.
 
When it comes to downloading music or games I think it all boils down to the Robbin Hood effect:

Because people are stealing from multi-million dollar companies they feel justified or at least okay about doing it.

It's difficult to feel sorry for someone who sings one song and makes millions while our school teachers are struggling to get paid at the end of the week. It is even worse when the millionaires complain about it. The South Park episode that makes fun of that is a good example.


If "piracy" was stealing from your neighbor it probably wouldn't be so prevelant.
 
Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.
 
[quote name='jasonditz']Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.[/quote]

Taking something that wasn't given to you and that you didn't pay for is stealing. Period.
 
[quote name='eldad9'][quote name='video_gamer324']BIG difference. Here's why:

I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No.[/quote]

Yes, they do.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Tell me if you need more.[/quote]

I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.
 
[quote name='video_gamer324']
I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.[/quote]

Quite. Hooray for the companies that hassle honest folk, misrepresent their products as CDs when in fact they are not, make CDs that don't play on some CD players, and don't do anything whatsoever to prevent copyright infringement.
 
[quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='jasonditz']Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.[/quote]

Taking something that wasn't given to you and that you didn't pay for is stealing. Period.[/quote]

Since what's being taken here is a service and not a good, one could make a similar argument for enjoying the air conditioning in the mall when you aren't buying anything.
 
I consider downloading music pretty much ethical, despite the law. There are numerous bands/songs that ive heard once before here and there, and looked up on p2p, and loved them. This has prompted me on several occasions to purchase CD's which i legally own and can backup all i want to.

Games are an entirely different matter. Since these are two toatlly seperate mediums, i believe they need to be approached differently. Firstly, i believe if a game is more than 5 years old/ no longer sold on any platform (PC/PS/ ANYTHING), i pretty much have no qualms since the developer has made all them money they are going to and t doesent hurt them. Whereas, when you download those two new brand spankin hot-game-hasnt-even-been-released-yet 700MB isos and burn them so you can "get in on the free stuff". THIS HURTS THE GAMING INDUSTRY.

Imagine what someone said. You spend 2-3 years restoringa 1978 Mustang 2 Big body, brand new 440 big block, mint interior, pearl white finish with that perfect little chrome mustang grill logo. Now imagine someone with a duplicate key they stole from you and made walks up and drives it away.
Never to be caught, Never punished, nothing.

Gee, dont you wanna go restore another game now? As the growth of broadband spreads, i only see this problem becoming bigger. Game companies need to start doing something before they really hurt themselves.

I also think the game companies have to do something about prices, which i believe is a major contributing factor to piracy. Who wants to pay $50 dollars for the latest game when they can go grab it for free? Reasonable prices = more sales.

Just me raving and ranting people, move along.
 
I think pirating music is "less bad" than games since, yes, both the artists and devlopers/producers/etc. work very hard BUT: artists are giving us one good song of 3 minutes or on RARE ocasions a good album with 60 minutes while devlopers are giving us in some cases 60 HOUR games. While artists make us pay for their album to get just that one good song developers freuqently distribute demos and such. I think pirating a game just to try it out (I know a ton of people say this as an excuse but I'm talking about people who auctually do) and if it sucks, they delete it and forget about it. If its the best game ever, they go out and buy it. This is more of a case of a free rental than a free game and if I were a developer I really wouldn't care if someone did that to one of my games...
 
There are several fundimental differences between a game and some music.


Games can last hours and hours in one play through, while a music CD lasts 30 minutes or so, while being about a third of the price of the game. The money per hour ratio is MUCH better for a game than music.

Some games have more replay value than others, either with good multiplayer (in other words, not just tacked on), mods, multiple paths to take, and hidden areas and things to find. Music is, yet again, non-interactive and less value per dollar to the consumer.

Games have reasons to actually buy them instead of pirating. Many games require CD-Keys to play online, and those keys are checked against a server. If everyone who's downloaded the game has the same CD-Key, they cant play. Plus, there are sometimes bonuses in the box, like a good manual, a CD soundtrack, maps, figurines, ect., while a music CD's bonuses, if any, are usually on the CD so they are easily copied.

While games and music might not be equal, the "good, moral" use for P2P and piracy extends over both of these, as people can download and try them to see if the game/music is any good before buying. I myself would have never bought several CDs if it wasnt for downloading the other songs on the CD to see if its just filler or not. I've also saved myself money on games and music that sucked. I tried UFO: Aftermath this way and, without needing reviews, found out it suckd and they didnt deserve my money. Conversely, I also downloaded Rise of Nations, loved it, and bought it. Now, if I had only done the same with Force Commander... :x
 
I'm not gonna write 3 paragraphs here, just a quick response.

I download music, not that often becuase I have dial up and it takes like 30 minutes+ to download 1 song. But, I mostly download, music the not available in stores- hip hop instrumentals, or hard to find music, or a song I like by somebodyt that has no other good songs on their cd. Otherwise I buy the cd. I have a huge cd collection, but I download music too. As for games, I always buy them, no need to download them to me.
 
Its hard for me to add in my two cents since...well...most of the music I listen to is readily available from the bands' website and have no qualms with you passing along a cd-r to a friend. fans are fans when you're a struggling musician.

I used to not care when folks would pirate games, then I attended E3 in 2002. It sorta sucks to shake hands with folks you know busted their balls off to produce a game...only to have I33TGAM3R29 mention on a message board how he pirated the title since he didn't feel he should have to pay money to enjoy games.

But, its rather a moot point. No amount of conviencing will change someone's mind if they're getting instant gratification with zero resources being put into it.

I'd personally just steer clear of any "flare ups" regarding justifying (or arguing against) piracy, on any medium.
 
I admit it, I do download music and games. Drifting between unemployed and working for the minimum wage of $5.15 an hour and being well above the age where my parents would buy me games, I don't have a lot of expendable income to risk on games or CDs that I won't really like. There are some games that I do shell out money for, after they have dropped in price some, while some just aren't worth buying to me, even if they are 'good'. For instance, Max Payne 2, while having an engaging storyline for a shooter, lasted just hours. With limited replay value, I would be dissapointed to drop $50 or even $30 on it.

With music, a lot of what I download is stuff I haven't listened to before. Short clips like the stuff on amazon.com doesn't even come close to encouraging me to buy the CD - what they can do, however, is pursuade me to take a closer look at the artist or CD, and that usually means me downloading it. Since I'm 'blessed' with a broadband connection - thanks dad :), I download an entire CD when I can, so I won't have to deal with the dilemma of buying a CD based on one or two songs (usually the only good ones on the album)

I personally draw the line at -buying- pirated goods, though. I figure, if the developers/musicians/whoever aren't getting my money for the game/cd/whoever, than nobody else should, either. If I'm going to pay for something, it's going to be the people who deserve it.
 
Argh! When I'm at high sea and see a ship whose hull is full of games me and me swabbies get the gun powder and fire some cannonballs. After we overtake her we blindfold her crew and make 'em walk the plank one by one!!

Aye, its not good as doubloons but a shipment of games will have to do.

Alas on the high sea there is no internet, so downloading music is impossible!
 
I support downloading only games that are no longer for sale on older consoles. I think I saw nintendo say that they own their intellectualy property, so they don't want you to download ANY game regardless if it's not on sale anymore because they may re-release it later. But say I want to play Kid Icarus and I can't find it locally. Okay, Nintendo, now re-release it so I can buy it, you can make money, and I can play my game. No? Okay, then I'm going to download it.

You could argue that I could buy it on ebay or gamestop.com, but Nintendo still isn't making money from that old copy of Kid Icarus.
 
I also agree with the copying of out of print/out of stock, games. By out of stock I don't mean if ebgames just happens to sell out of splinter cell. I mean once it is not printed any longer and then all of the stock is sold.
 
You know, CD sales skyrocketed after Napster was introduced, and for good reason. Most people who download music will actually buy the music that they really like. For many (not all, though), it's essentially a way of "sampling" the music. I always buy CDs after I've downloaded a couple of tracks and liked them. IMHO, the only artists/bands that have to fear falling CD sales are the ones that aren't good enough for good sales.

With games, the same can't be said. You need a mod-chip (well, except with Dreamcast), which requires you to pull apart your console and solder wires. Not only that, a game isn't divided up into tracks like a CD, so once you get a "sample," you've gotten the whole game. So the "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" scenario is not possible here. You need to be serious about pirating games to actually do it.

^^^My 2 cents^^^
 
[quote name='The Cheapest Ass Gamer']You know, CD sales skyrocketed after Napster was introduced, and for good reason. Most people who download music will actually buy the music that they really like. For many (not all, though), it's essentially a way of "sampling" the music. I always buy CDs after I've downloaded a couple of tracks and liked them. IMHO, the only artists/bands that have to fear falling CD sales are the ones that aren't good enough for good sales.

With games, the same can't be said. You need a mod-chip (well, except with Dreamcast), which requires you to pull apart your console and solder wires. Not only that, a game isn't divided up into tracks like a CD, so once you get a "sample," you've gotten the whole game. So the "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" scenario is not possible here. You need to be serious about pirating games to actually do it.

^^^My 2 cents^^^[/quote]

The "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" is possible with games. Many times the copied version is crippled. One drawback is that you definately can't play a copied version of a game at a friend's house. Also, there are "trainers" released for games which are essentially samples of the games.

Also, most consoles do not require solder-in mod-chip to play copied software. Dreamcast is one notable example where many games were crippled due to the size limitation of normal cd-rs. Another example is Gamecube which can play software over a network but not from a burned disc (this results in long loading times and sometimes glitches). In fact, I'm thinking about setting up my gamecube to play copied games for the very reason of sampling them because nintendo makes it very difficult to try games out (very few demos). There is also the Saturn and Playstation, neither of which require mod-chips. In fact, the ONLY two consoles that I can think of where you need a mod-chip to play copied games are PS2 and Xbox.

I don't think your argument holds any water whatsoever. In fact, I know that I have observed the "napster effect" in my life since I started playing copied software. After I started playing copied software I was introduced to many more franchises and genres that I would never have taken the $50 risk to try out (although now a days its more like a $30 risk). As a result there are many more games that I am interested in and I buy a lot more games (both new games and games that I copied but loved so much that I have to own the original).

Take the Shenmue series for example. I first copied this game for my dreamcast because I wanted to try it out. I wasn't expecting much; in fact, I hated the first 30 minutes of it. But since it was free I decided to play a little more (if I was playing at a kiosk I definately would have walked away and a demo wouldn't give you more than 30 min). It turns out that I really loved the game so I downloaded the second one also. I loved the second game too. So I bought the Shenmue I and Shenmue II for dreamcast. I also bought Shenmue II for Xbox when it came out just for the movie that comes with it (I don't even own an Xbox). This is exactly the same phenomenon that you are talking about with music and I think that many other people that play copied games have similar sentiments.
 
I'm finally going to chime in and drop my couple of pesos on the topic at hand:

Downloading commercial CDs for free- Wrong
Pirating/Downloading Games- Wrong

The record industry crippled itself by becoming a "victim" of technology. The RIAA and the major labels did not adapt soon enough to handle changes in the distribution of music, as well as the abilities of the public to use the music that they have purchased. The public has been spoiled by the "free" downloading of music, and has a hard time accepting what are new, and very suitable comprimises.

The game, and any software industry has always been affected by piracy. It's very easy to make a "clean" copy of a game, especially back in the Commodore 64 and DOS days, where it was almost as simple as typing "COPY". While forms of media for games have advanced, so has consumer copying abilities.

The price tag of any media product reflects the cost to the producer of the product. On a CD, you have more people to pay than just the artist that performs the song. You have the session musicians, songwriters, the recording engineers, studio costs, layout people, printing/pressing people, distribution, and retail. It takes quite a large number of people to get the CD in your hands. The same goes for games, with an even larger staff for design, programming, testing, sound, and tons of other aspects.

As far as the sampling argument is concerded, products like the new Napster, itunes, Gamefly, Netflix, etc. allow you to sample as many games, movies, music, at a reasonable rate. If you can't spring the ~$25 month, well then most likely you won't be buying the product anyway. Yes some of these services aren't unlimited reaching, but if you are looking for something specific, for argument's sake let's say Buckner and Garcia's Pac-Man Fever, you most likely aren't looking to sample it, you are looking to own it, so pay the $12 for the CD.
 
BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.[/quote]

I would say as long as someone still owns the copyright, or the rights to the IP that it is based on, it is wrong. The downloading of old games can be prohibitive of some type of collection re-release, like the Sonic Mega Collection, Namco Musuems, Activision Collection, et al. While some companies may sit on the rights, like Nintendo has done on most of their 8-Bit IPs, they have even been getting into the NES re-releases with the E-Reader.

Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.

There are several IPs from game companies that ceased to exist that are now listed as "abandonware", many being arcade games from the arcade heyday of the early 80s. Downloading these and playing them via some form of emulator isn't wrong, but the commercial redistribution of them would be. The same goes for several "dead" consoles, like the Vectrex.

The whole ROM situation is about potential, like a stick of dynamite has tons of potential energy, but none if the energy to release the potential energy is not released. Parallel that to ROMs of old games have potential profit making energy, but there needs to be energy exerted to release the profit making energy. I see downloading the ROMs kind of like if you were to steal someone's dynamite.
 
[quote name='BigDirty'][quote name='E-Z-B']BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.[/quote]

I would say as long as someone still owns the copyright, or the rights to the IP that it is based on, it is wrong. The downloading of old games can be prohibitive of some type of collection re-release, like the Sonic Mega Collection, Namco Musuems, Activision Collection, et al. While some companies may sit on the rights, like Nintendo has done on most of their 8-Bit IPs, they have even been getting into the NES re-releases with the E-Reader.

Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.

There are several IPs from game companies that ceased to exist that are now listed as "abandonware", many being arcade games from the arcade heyday of the early 80s. Downloading these and playing them via some form of emulator isn't wrong, but the commercial redistribution of them would be. The same goes for several "dead" consoles, like the Vectrex.

The whole ROM situation is about potential, like a stick of dynamite has tons of potential energy, but none if the energy to release the potential energy is not released. Parallel that to ROMs of old games have potential profit making energy, but there needs to be energy exerted to release the profit making energy. I see downloading the ROMs kind of like if you were to steal someone's dynamite.[/quote]

Excellent analysis, BD. Although it sucks for us when they sit on their IP rights, that's the law whether we like it or not.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']I'm sure a vast majority of gamers have done one or both, but are there any differences between the two?[/quote]
There may not be a difference between downloading one or the other, but the results of doing so are very different.

[quote name='CheapyD']Do you feel guilty about doing one, while the other is acceptable in your mind? Why?[/quote]
I only download a song or a game if there was no way I would have bought it anyway, so I never feel guilty about it. There has never been a time that I downloaded anything that I would have bought if I couldn't have gotten it for free. Because of this, nobody lost any money.
However, if I did replace buying with downloading, I would only feel slightly guilty about downloading muisc I would have bought while I would feel very guilty for doing the same with games. This is because music artists make butt-loads of money from other things like getting music videos on TV and playing at concerts. File sharing is more like free advertising for music artists. Game developers get almost all their profits from selling the game itself, and I realy doubt that everytime someone downloads a game instead of buying it they later like the game enough to buy enough game figurines to negate the loss.

[quote name='CheapyD']If pirating games was as quick and easy as downloading music, do you think game sales would suffer?[/quote]
Possibly. It could help or hurt, although it would probably hurt.
Even though music is now shared over the internet, music artist are still filthy rich because the people that download their songs get interested in them. Many people buy music because they dowloaded other songs from that band and liked it. This could happen with videogames too and help them to obtain a much larger audience. The only problem with this theory is that while music CDs are cheap, videogames are super expensive. A person that already has some songs on their computer might not mind paying $12 to pay for them, but if they already have a game for free it's much more unlikely that they'll pay $40 for it. Downloading games causes more lost sales' dollars than downloading music anyway. The high prices will also make downloading games more appetizing than downloading music.

[quote name='BigDirty']Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.[/quote]
Huh? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.
Let's say one person buys a used copy of an old game and another person downloads it. If that game is rereleased, the person that bought the used copy will buy the new release while the one that downloaded it won't? Is that what you're saying? That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Could you clarify what you mean? I'm curious becasue you made several good points.


This is the best topic ever! Non-stop arguing! I will no longer skip over any forum. But seriously, why is this in the Game Club forum? I'm lucky to have ever found it.
 
[quote name='digioverload']Huh? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.
Let's say one person buys a used copy of an old game and another person downloads it. If that game is rereleased, the person that bought the used copy will buy the new release while the one that downloaded it won't? Is that what you're saying? That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Could you clarify what you mean? I'm curious becasue you made several good points.
[/quote]

The point is that on the used copy of the game, the proper people got the royalties at some point in that cartirige's lifecycle (assuming that it is a licesned copy and not a pirate edition). While the person who bought the used copy may not have any intentions of buying a rerelease, the rights for the FAIR use of that copy of the IP are the purchaser's.

However, the person who downloads the game, as opposed to purchasing it, has the ability to play it, but does not hold any rights for the FAIR use of the IP. All things considered, this person stole the use of the IP, whether it be from the original release, or a re-release.

Hopefully, that clears things up for you.
 
From a person who has worked in the music industry, and now currently works in the games industry, there is no valid point to the sort of piracy that has been discussed. And I don't know where you got your facts from, but CD sales have declined 7-10% every year since '98. It's hard to feel bad for multi-million selling bands, but the 75k or 100k bands get hit even harder. And there isn't much else as demoralizing as hearing someone download or copy a game you just spent 8 months working 60+ hour weeks on.

There is a reason why new games are $50. Games have always been around this price point, and just consider how much more content is involved. The value per dollar should be obvious. As for music, how about we just all stop listening to all the disposable so you'd stop bitching about its lack of quality. Congrats BigDirty for making some sense in a forum gone mad.
 
[quote name='BigDirty']Hopefully, that clears things up for you.[/quote]
Oh, ok. You were talking about legality and not whether the effects on the industry were better or worse. Thanks for the clarification. ^_^ I understand what you were saying now.
 
[quote name='roland13x'] As for music, how about we just all stop listening to all the disposable so you'd stop bitching about its lack of quality.[/quote]

=D> best point ever
 
[quote name='video_gamer324'] Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy.[/quote]

So...your neighbor who locks his door every day deserves to have his stuff kept safe, but if you leave your door unlocked when you leave the house you deserve to have someone take all of your stuff and you feel that they are justified in doing so?

Where do you live??? :lol:
 
How much does it cost to press a cd? A dollar? What percentage of cd sales actually go to the people who put the REAL work into the music (the artist)? How much money would the RIAA lose on piracy, versus how much they spend on taking individuals to court?

First of all, as other people have mentioned, console backups are cumbersome or crippled. The main reason I haven't modded my PS2 or bought a swap disc (you don't need a chip to play some copied PS2 games) is that there is cost involved in that and there is risk involved. I decided I'd rather just buy the real original games for cheap and spend a little extra than to go to the trouble of modifying my brand-new box only to play copies of games that probably won't work on PS3 anyway.

As far as computer games go, it's much easier to copy them, and while I have, I've yet to entirely play through a game that I haven't bought. If it's a good game, then I find it my obligation to purchase a legitimate copy of the game. If it's not then it gets deleted. It's a way to sample the entire product. Usually I won't even have the time or attention span to come remotely close to finishing a game that I downloaded.

I for one am tired of feeling ripped off for paying full price for a game that I didn't really like, or worse yet, a game that comes out of the box completely unfunctioning. I paid $40 for Midnight Club 2 for the pc and I have yet to play it because the game just doesn't plain work in Windows 98 (despite listing it as compatible) and the laptop I have XP on has an incompatible soundcard. That really pisses me off (and Rockstar had yet to release any sort of patch or acknowledge that there even was a problem last I checked).

The music argument is so stupid it's ridiculous. First of all, the RIAA needs to stop spending money suing people and start spending money on finding a way to use the net as a new method of music distribution. Secondly, cds have been way overpriced for years. And finally, if anyone truly cares about the quality of music, then like myself, you will find that mp3's are pointless other than for archival purposes. I can hear the difference between a 160k mp3 and a cd on crappy pc speakers; in my car I can tell the difference between a 192k mp3 and a cd, and anything bigger than 192k and you might as well save yourself the trouble and store the file as a wav. Simple truth is if the music good enough to listen to then I buy the cd. Mp3's for me exist only so that I can have my entire collection to listen to on my laptop where the speakers suck worse than the file quality anyway.
 
[quote name='rarson']
I for one am tired of feeling ripped off for paying full price for a game that I didn't really like, or worse yet, a game that comes out of the box completely unfunctioning. I paid $40 for Midnight Club 2 for the pc and I have yet to play it because the game just doesn't plain work in Windows 98 (despite listing it as compatible) and the laptop I have XP on has an incompatible soundcard. That really pisses me off (and Rockstar had yet to release any sort of patch or acknowledge that there even was a problem last I checked).

The music argument is so stupid it's ridiculous. First of all, the RIAA needs to stop spending money suing people and start spending money on finding a way to use the net as a new method of music distribution. Secondly, cds have been way overpriced for years. And finally, if anyone truly cares about the quality of music, then like myself, you will find that mp3's are pointless other than for archival purposes. I can hear the difference between a 160k mp3 and a cd on crappy pc speakers; in my car I can tell the difference between a 192k mp3 and a cd, and anything bigger than 192k and you might as well save yourself the trouble and store the file as a wav. Simple truth is if the music good enough to listen to then I buy the cd. Mp3's for me exist only so that I can have my entire collection to listen to on my laptop where the speakers suck worse than the file quality anyway.[/quote]

I hate Rockstar PC games, they dont really ever hardly release patches, and when they do, sometimes they wont ever release another one. The Vice City Patch (there has only been 1 ever) doesent even fix all the problems people complained to them about.

Thats why i encode all my mp3s in 192k and up. Most of them are 320 just so they sound good in the car real loud.
 
[quote name='rarson']How much does it cost to press a cd? A dollar? What percentage of cd sales actually go to the people who put the REAL work into the music (the artist)? How much money would the RIAA lose on piracy, versus how much they spend on taking individuals to court?
[/quote]

Actually the real people behind the CD most of the time aren't the ones that are pictured on the cover and labeled "the artist". There are the songwriters, session musicians, studio engineers, etc. etc. that are the ones who make the music, a large percentage of the "artists", especially those in cookie-cutter pop, are no more than just a marketing tool, it's their image that sells the CDs. Also when they co-write a song, some of the co-writing is, change that note, because it's out of my vocal range, or other petty differences.

I just have to make my point that piracy, along with the ignorance of the masses, is what really hurts the TRUE artists.
 
[quote name='chosen1s'][quote name='video_gamer324'] Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy.[/quote]

So...your neighbor who locks his door every day deserves to have his stuff kept safe, but if you leave your door unlocked when you leave the house you deserve to have someone take all of your stuff and you feel that they are justified in doing so?

Where do you live??? :lol:[/quote]

If you reread my original post, you'll see that I never say that I feel justified in downloading music. I simply state that the music industry has been careless overall in preventing file sharing, and because of that, I hope that they have learned their lesson so they can reduce the traffic of their music. Using your house analogy, someone who locks their front door and is responsible does not deserve to have people breaking into their house and stealing stuff. On the other hand, if you leave your front door unlocked when you leave, you don't "deserve" to have anything stolen, but if anything is stolen, it's because you were careless. You deserve the lesson learned so you don't act carelessly in the future, not so much the stuff that was stolen from you.
 
I for once agree with scrubking...the robin hood effect is what people use to justify piracy...even the name piracy is considered a cool word in the usa.
This is why I always call them thieves....its a true word with only negative connotations.

THe one problem with the robin hood effect and people think they only steal from the major or the artist is that they are blind to the fact that their neighbors are effected. I work on a block with 5 music stores and they are all having bad business these last few years...so now they dont hire staff..current staff doenst get bonuses or raises anymore. All the people in the supply chain are out of work too...truckers and shippers. Places like Tower, Sam Goody, and other retailers are just going out of business. That's less jobs for the young workers at the mall. That also has a trickle effect itself. So the irony is that kids complain they cant get a job at the local mall yet they are home stealing as much as they can. Also music itself is suffering...notice how crappy the top20 is? I think its because the majors cant afford to take chances on new music...they go with what sells.

I gotta end this rant and get some work done.
 
omg...I just went to that link downhillbattle...what a shame!

And to think that 30 year ago our parents...some of your grandparents were protesting for Civil Rights and to end war....

kids today are protesting to get free music!
 
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