Factor 5 Developing for the "GameCube 1.5"

[quote name='The Crotch']I found the on-foot missions to be unbelievably easy. [/QUOTE]

They were easy. They just sucked. Hard.
 
[quote name='Lan_Zer0']
- Will be very much geared toward the casual market. Waiting for other developers to be successful with real games, before making their own. :roll:[/QUOTE]

This is just killing the Wii for me.

No one's willing to take a chance, and as such third parties are just trying to cash in on this causal game, mini game bullshit that is selling so well on the Wii.

Probably good business sense, but sucks for Wii owners who just want to play traditional types of games with the Wii controller.
 
I'm not part of the problem. I don't buy that casual/minigame crap and support it.

If third parties would put out some original AAA quality games in traditional genres (not oddball stuff like Z&W and NMH, the "lightgun" games etc.) I'd definitely vote with my wallet by purchasing them.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']This is just killing the Wii for me.

No one's willing to take a chance, and as such third parties are just trying to cash in on this causal game, mini game bullshit that is selling so well on the Wii.

Probably good business sense, but sucks for Wii owners who just want to play traditional types of games with the Wii controller.[/QUOTE]

Well, initially, developing for the Wii was taking a chance. And then you have to go up against Nintendo games on the Wii.

And than you have the option to please gamers ($$) or non-gamers ($$$$$$$$$) on the Wii.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm not part of the problem. I don't buy that casual/minigame crap and support it.[/quote]I was neither talking about you, nor was I talking specifically to you.
 
The quote somebody instead of posting one line non-sense that has no context and makes no sense if not in response to the post directly above it.

fucking canadiens! :D
 
I understood the crotch completely as saying that Factor 5 was part of problem, not you.

But immediate denial makes me wonder about your guilt in this vicious Wii cycle.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']I understood the crotch completely as saying that Factor 5 was part of problem, not you.

But immediate denial makes me wonder about your guilt in this vicious Wii cycle.[/quote]

I agree...


Also, sad about this new Factor 5 development.
 
I dunno. Personally I think of Star Wars games as for the casual crowd, since it's the gateway drug of franchises for any form of entertainment. Much like how I see Madden as for the casual crowd, and yet no "hardcore" gamer would deny that the franchise is like gold that actually burps forth more gold.

I will not lie and say I am not disheartened with such news, especially considering that F5 can be a powerhouse developer. But this is counterbalanced by the fact that Lair was so horrid that the living dead actually crawled back to their graves.

Which makes me wonder what they can and can't do.

A casual game on the Wii currently has shitty graphics and terrible gameplay. F5 seems to want to make their product look really nice, which already sets it apart from other casual games. Of course, maybe the gameplay will be equally terrible, hence making it a big waste of proper graphic engine throttling.

I guess we'll see.
 
I think my not having played Lair - or even expecting Lair to be all that great - is colouring my views here. When I think Factor 5, I think "HOLY SHIT THERE ARE, LIKE, A HUNDRED THOUSAND TIE FIGHTERS AND OH fuck THAT WAS A HUGE EXPLOSM!" instead of "Why is my dragon flying into walls?"
[quote name='dmaul1114']The quote somebody instead of posting one line non-sense that has no context and makes no sense if not in response to the post directly above it.

fucking canadiens! :D[/quote]
What Mulligan said. Seemed pretty obvious to me. And, apparently, to other people who weren't you.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']I understood the crotch completely as saying that Factor 5 was part of problem, not you.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Just went over my head I guess as I just saw a 1 line worthless reply after my post that looked to be related.

But immediate denial makes me wonder about your guilt in this vicious Wii cycle.
Click to expand...

No guilt at all. Like I said, I haven't bought a single casual game, mini game collection etc. And I've not bought any of the niche/oddball stuff like Z&W, NMH, fake light gun games etc.

I have no desire to play any of that kind of stuff, and thus I don't shell out any money to support it and encourage developers to make more of these types of games.

I guess the only guilt I could have is in buying into the pre launch hype and buying the console and thus supporting Nintendo's switch to focus on casual gamers.

Oh well, I may remedy that soon. I'm letting my girlfriend's family borrow it for at least a month later this week, and I may well just give it to them or sell it cheap since I see nothing other than Smash coming this year that looks like a must buy to me. And I could live without that game.

Then I'd have the plus of being tied to this horseshit casual game movement AND not having to read the nintendo fanboy nonsense on forums like this. The other consoles have their idiot fanboys for sure, but Nintendo somehow struck the jackpot in that area.
 
NMH isn't niche. It's stylistic. There is a big difference. Writing it off as such is actually more part of the problem than anything else.

Killer7 is far more niche than a game that is basically an anime spin on GTA.

Z&W I can almost understand since it's basically a point-and-click adventure game, even though the pure sales numbers argue strongly against it being niche.

Nevermind, of course, according to you that the games aren't actually good (which they really are). They're niche, which is this really nice nebulous word that you happen to spin in a negative "that means it's not something I like and even though others like it, I'm still going to to relegate it as nothing more than paltry attempt at something I don't care about." Nevermind also that the games are somewhat unique in some manner, be in presentation (NHM) or execution (Z&W, which is still one of the most brilliant uses of motion control to date). Calling them niche is just an umbrella term that doesn't really require definition or explanation.

And yeah yeah. Go on with the "I only play the Wii for Mario/Metroid/Brawl and after that I might sell it and be done with this forum" stuff you've been doing for the past entire time the Wii has been out. Which is funny since most people on this forum actually have encouraged you do that since you come off as a troll half the time and a whiner the other.

But please come back at me with something childish since you're predictable and I'm just reiterating what I and dozens of others have said. Like $$$$$$ Nintendo fanboy or something. That'll be rich.
 
[quote name='Strell']NMH isn't niche. It's stylistic. There is a big difference. Writing it off as such is actually more part of the problem than anything else.

Killer7 is far more niche than a game that is basically an anime spin on GTA.

Z&W I can almost understand since it's basically a point-and-click adventure game, even though the pure sales numbers argue strongly against it being niche.

Nevermind, of course, according to you that the games aren't actually good (which they really are). They're niche, which is this really nice nebulous word that you happen to spin in a negative "that means it's not something I like and even though others like it, I'm still going to to relegate it as nothing more than paltry attempt at something I don't care about." Nevermind also that the games are somewhat unique in some manner, be in presentation (NHM) or execution (Z&W, which is still one of the most brilliant uses of motion control to date). Calling them niche is just an umbrella term that doesn't really require definition or explanation.

And yeah yeah. Go on with the "I only play the Wii for Mario/Metroid/Brawl and after that I might sell it and be done with this forum" stuff you've been doing for the past entire time the Wii has been out. Which is funny since most people on this forum actually have encouraged you do that since you come off as a troll half the time and a whiner the other.

But please come back at me with something childish since you're predictable and I'm just reiterating what I and dozens of others have said. Like $$$$$$ Nintendo fanboy or something. That'll be rich.[/quote]
I think I have a bit of a man-crush now.
 
[quote name='Strell']
Nevermind, of course, according to you that the games aren't actually good (which they really are). They're niche, which is this really nice nebulous word that you happen to spin in a negative....[/QUOTE]

You're misreading me. I never said they aren't good games. They just aren't my cup of tea. But by all accounts they are GREAT games for fans of these types of games.

I don't mean niche as a negative either. It just means they don't have mass market appeal. These games aren't going to be million sellers.

But their are plenty of games, albums, movies, etc. that I've loved that I'd call niche.

The rest of your post doesn't warrant the time to type up a response.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']You're misreading me. I never said they aren't good games. They just aren't my cup of tea. But by all accounts they are GREAT games for fans of these types of games.

I don't mean niche as a negative either. It just means they don't have mass market appeal. These games aren't going to be million sellers.

But their are plenty of games, albums, movies, etc. that I've loved that I'd call niche.

The rest of your post doesn't warrant the time to type up a response.[/QUOTE]

Aren't there only 14 games on the 360 that sold a million copies? Maybe I have that wrong...

Dmaul you have been pretty negative and apparently thats how its going to stay. Was that your stance on the Gamecube as well?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
I don't mean niche as a negative either. It just means they don't have mass market appeal. These games aren't going to be million sellers.[/quote]

The majority of games aren't million sellers, but you'd be hard pressed to say they don't have mass market appeal. Every other week during the PS2's lifetime, another JRPG came out that would fit the mold of "hardcore gamer mass appeal," yet would garner sales below 100K. We could go look up Roland's topic (wherever it is, I just know it pops up in my subscriptions) for proof of that.

You can't call them niche because in a post FF7 world, JRPG games get enough attention and the gaming crowd tends to know about them. And yet they don't put up stellar numbers. (Pre-FF7 in America I'd call them borderline niche, and even that doesn't really work because I have to restrict it to America, where in Japan they'd be eaten up like candy.)

Meanwhile, games there are both niche and "mass appeal" games that sell well, sell admirably, or fail. It's really hard to differentiate and constantly re-evaluate the rules determining this and that and x and y. Is the 50 cent game niche because it's appealing to his music fans and not gamers in general? Is Katamari niche, despite getting lots of sequels? Is Soul Calibur 3 more niche than 2 because 2 was crossplatform and 3 wasn't? You could make arguments for and against each on both sides.

So my question is where you are drawing this ever-moving-target line, since I don't believe it actually exists with any kind of set guidelines or criteria. Going by "they aren't million sellers" is laughable because by that very definition, most games are niche.

Again, you can't tell me in this desperate-for-Japanese-slash-anime-culture-starved gaming community - especially one that has its fair share of GTA fans - that NMH is niche. It's not as fleshed out as GTA, and there are some technical issues, but it's essentially a brawler with some neat customization and stat-building elements. There was a time in gaming history that such a game would be common, there are times it would have been seen as progressive, and there are times it would be seen as dime-a-dozen. It's part fighter (a not niche genre, although even THAT is debateable since fighters don't register as much as they used to) and part adventure/sandbox (which encompasses all sorts of non-niche games).

And yet, the guys that just play Halo and Madden don't know about these games and don't give a shit about them. So are they niche to those guys?

Do you see how hard it is to get a solid grasp on this? I can't figure it out myself. Which means the best I can get out of someone is the old "I may not know art, but I know what I like" response. Or, in some respects, like the judge who famously said "I know pornography when I see it." Which is sometimes called common sense or collective opinion, since it's just something you kind of know.

It's like how in philosophy class once, my professor asked us to define what a chair is. We all innately know what a chair is, but have you ever sat down (ho ho, pun) and thought about exact definitions? You'll go mad. You can't talk about building materials, how many legs it has, what shape it is, how it's made, etc etc without running into a million exceptions that can't all be accounted for. You'll never be able to fully define it.

And that's kind of the same thing I see here with trying to sort out what from what and what-not. And this isn't even considering that it all goes back to subjective opinion anyway.

The ultimate point is that it seems to me that if something isn't falling into EXTREMELY defined roles, it's niche. Which today means "If it doesn't have guns." Portal is niche, and yet tons of people like it. See how I can say that? Because none of friends know shit about it except the two or three who really follow the industry and play games on the PC. My other friends just Madden and NCAA Football.

It's just that at this point, a game has to be "hardcore" to not be niche. It has to be online, has to have guns, has to have characters who cuss, etc etc etc. It's got to be visceral and action-packed and have great graphics and be backed by a huge advertising campaign with licensed music and smartass developers acting like shithead high school students.

Meanwhile the fans of those types of games sit on this pedastal proclaiming everything else to be niche, and acting like anyone who argues with them is being a douchebag.

In the end, I'm smart enough to know I can't change your mind, and that it doesn't matter how fluid or cohesive my argument is. "Niche" is actually a really brilliant argument to make in terms of strategy because it's a wholly unassailable word. It's like I'm a supervillian, and I want to flood the world, and the best plan I can think up is to throw rocks at the Hoover Dam.

'Cuz it's like....even if I did somehow break the dam, then I'm fucked.

But their are plenty of games, albums, movies, etc. that I've loved that I'd call niche.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make them so.

Beyond that, the game industry doesn't warrant honest comparison to the music and movie industries. They all fall under "entertainment," but after that, the similarities tend to thin out.

The rest of your post doesn't warrant the time to type up a response.
Click to expand...

Well of course it doesn't. It's not like you don't have some canned response waiting to be copied and pasted into the quick reply box.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']
Dmaul you have been pretty negative and apparently thats how its going to stay. Was that your stance on the Gamecube as well?[/QUOTE]

I wasn't a huge fan of the GC either (played the PS2 the most by far last gen, played the X-box about the same as the GC) but there was definitely more to play that was up my alleys then.

If for no other reason than we hadn't seen this move to casual gamers, mini games etc.

Plus the GC was on par power-wise with the competition, so a lot of the big multiplatform games got ported over in well done ports (a lot of ports were better than PS2, not as good as X-box). Where as now with the power difference we're either not getting them at all (e.g. CoD4) or getting crappy ports (e.g. CoD3).
 
[quote name='Strell']
You can't call them niche.......

So my question is where you are drawing this ever-moving-target line, since I don't believe it actually exists with any kind of set guidelines or criteria. Going by "they aren't million sellers" is laughable because by that very definition, most games are niche. [/quote]

These are fair points. Niche is probably too strong a word. Too loaded to use the way I meant.

Maybe I should just just say something like non-mainstream. Z&W, NMH aren't GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Mario, Zelda, Madden (and other major sports games), Street Fighter, Smash Bros. etc. etc.

But they probably are too successful to label niche in the traditional meaning of the word.

All I mean as I'm 97% a major, AAA mainstream game player. I don't have a lot of time/am not willing to devote a ton of time to gaming, so I try to stick the cream of the crop in the genres I love--which happen to be mainstream stuff like FPS, Sports, Platformer etc.

That doesn't make them so.
Click to expand...

Nothing about me makes them niche. They're niche because they aren't played on the radio, not shown in any major theaters etc. etc.

My only point is that I didn't mean anything negative by calling something Niche. It was just to say they weren't mainstream successes, most people not even aware of them etc. And that those things are independent of quality.
 
Nothing wrong with wanting to play the best games, especially once you're beyond points of no return when other things demand your attention. I think everyone understands that.

I won't press points further, since it's going to come down to semantics.

Were I to pick a point to stress more, it would probably be that gaming itself could still be labeled as a niche thing, more or less. The Wii has come to mitigate that (whether you big bad hardcore gamers like it or not, "you" being "anyone" in this case) to a certain degree. But even with the PS2 selling...let's say some 125-150 million systems worldwide, that's still a fraction of the Earth's population. Which is why gamers are considered nerdy - the thick rimmed glasses computer dork stereotype is alive and well. Or the uber-extreme-annoying-as-shit-fratboy takeoff, which is also considered common (just look at advertising to gamers to see many examples of this).

Point being that you could conceivably say that all of gaming is niche at this time. It has certainly revved up mainstream appeal and acceptance in the past 5 years (and especially within the last year), but it's going to be another 10-20 years before - I think - it'll be considered as commonplace as going to the movies and whatnot.

Kind of like how cell phones and e-mail address and IM handles all segued into popculture and become cornerstones of the standards of communication these days. It took some time, but now you can probably get one of those bits of information faster and easier than someone's address or home phone number.

But this is really kind of taking this discussion in a wildly new direction, so I'll stop pressing it.
 
[quote name='Strell']

Kind of like how cell phones and e-mail address and IM handles all segued into popculture and become cornerstones of the standards of communication these days. It took some time, but now you can probably get one of those bits of information faster and easier than someone's address or home phone number.

But this is really kind of taking this discussion in a wildly new direction, so I'll stop pressing it.[/QUOTE]

I can certainly attest to that as when I was a teen the mere mention of a "computer" got you labelled as an ultra-geek. The cool kids didn't use computers you know - they hand wrote their essays. I was one of the only people to type up and print my papers. Can you believe we actually had to get special permission from teachers to do so? They thought it was cheating, somehow, not to write things out :lol:.

Anyway, all sorts of tangents there. So what's this about some new game from Factor 5?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Fair enough. Just went over my head I guess as I just saw a 1 line worthless reply after my post that looked to be related.
[/quote]I said more-or-less what you said, but with less words. If the internet was a printer, I would have saved us a fortune on ink.
 
[quote name='Strell']
Point being that you could conceivably say that all of gaming is niche at this time. [/QUOTE]

True. But that doesn't mean you can't have niches within niches. :D i.e. small games some love that most who own the console it's on have never heard of etc.
 
I'm really sick and tired of all the bitching about "casual" games, "casual" gamers, and Wii mini-game xenophobia. Especially the rhetoric of how it's destroying gaming. It's a complete fallacy.


Yes there are mini-game compilations on the Wii, big deal. There are also FPS's, RPG's, RTS's, Platformers, Fighters, and every other genre represented. Yes many of them suck, just like they sucked on the PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox last generation. Just like most of them suck this generation - but they sure look much prettier with all those textures !

Why all the focus on mini-games and novelty titles anyway? Where was the outcry when the 100th incarnation of the rhythm game was published on other platforms under names like PaRappa, Gitaroo Man, Amplitude, Elite Beat Agents, etc. Pressing the button to the beat is somehow more genuinly industry worthy than a little waggle? Those games didn;'t even bother to have the variation that the Wii compilations have. They're the same mini game over and over with varying difficulty levels.

Then lets expand this to include the niche minigame releases like 10 different DDR games, Taiko drums, bongos, maracas, karaoke, and the ubiquitous Guitar hero phenomenon that pretends to be a full fledged videogame but is really just a variation of the press the button to the rhythm mini-game with a dorky-looking guitar peripheral. Honestly, I don't understand how some can say they feel like idiots with a Wiimote in hand yet will pick up this mini-guitar-facsimile and think they exude coolness by doing so. Hypocracy in motion, I guess.

Now, I'll address the holiest of all mini-game-collections: Grand Theft Auto. Yes, the greatest game of all time is heralded as divinely inspired because of it's diversity of gameplay, aka: mini-games. Control a remote car during a mini game, kill 30 people in 30 seconds in a mini-game, run a race against a rival in a mini-game. Avoid the police for 5 minutes - mini-game. Drop this person off at the hospital in 60 seconds. This game is no different than any other mini-game compilation except that you have to walk around in-between games instead of just choosing them from a menu. I guess mini-games can only be considered legitimate if you are killing someone in the process, otherwise it's just "kid stuff." No wonder videogames are still looked at as a bad influence on our youth.

There isn't any inherent 'badness' or illegitimacy in a MGC. It just needs to be done well. Just like any other game, it's presentation and implementation has as much to do with the quality game as the concept of the game itself. Any game done badly ends up being a bad game, regardless of its content.
 
The problem for me isn't that there are minigames--it's that developers are scared to try anything else. As evidenced by the Factor Five quotes above.

Yes, there are FPS, racing etc. on the Wii. But none are anywhere near the quality of the best games those genre's have to offer.

Right now it's Nintendo's fucking awesome first party stuff, mini-game causal games (great if you like that stuff), very good games like Z&W, NMN etc. that don't have mainstream appeal, and ports of varying quality.

As for not having any inherent badness in mini-game collections- I agree as I'm a big differnet strokes for different folks. Mini games can be good, they're just not for me. I'm not much for gaming in short bursts. Despite having very limited time, I'd rather free up one or two times a week I can game for a couple hours or more rather than squeezing in a little here and there. And also, I agree on GTA. I've always LOATHED that series for pretty much the reasons you point out.

But the Wii is selling like gangbusters, so obviously there's a huge market for this type of gaming, and kudos to Nintendo for tapping it. It's just getting to the extent of where I need to just accept that they've gotten to far removed from my gaming tastes and be done with them.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The problem for me isn't that there are minigames--it's that developers are scared to try anything else. [/quote]
Have you even looked at the lists of upcoming games? There are at least 18 I'm looking forward to (
Brawl (March 9th)
Untitled Treasure Project
Blast Works (Spring 2008)
Zombie Massacre
Eternity's Child (Q2 2008)
Okami (March 25)
Kirby
Boom Blox (May)
de Blob (June 27)
Rygar (May 1)
Sam and Max
Oboro Muramasa Youtouden
Star Wars
Mario Kart (March 15)
Worms: A Space Oddity (March 10)
Wii Music
Super Mario Baseball
House of the Dead
), none of which are focused on minigames, and 12 of which are pretty damn far from niche (I'm counting Zombie Massacre as non-niche because of its potential with the frat crowd). 7 of these are also extremely original and unique (I'm counting Treasure's project as original and unique because when have they ever let us down there?). And these are just my personal picks, there are plenty of other games that people are looking forward to as well. There are probably more minigame collections coming out, too; so don't worry, you can ignore the influx of fantastic AAA titles and keep bitching. Just don't expect us to take you seriously.
 
Brawl and Mario Kart the only that really grab me on that list. Okami is fucking great, but I played it too recently on the PS2 to replay it any time soon (hard to replay long games).

But I'm not going to waste time getting into this debate, as it's just different strokes for different folks.

I'm also not going to bitch anymore. My I just lent my Wii to my g/f's brother's family, and told her to tell him that if they like it they can buy it (with extra controllers and Mario Galaxy) for $200 flat. If they don't buy it for that family discount price :D then I'll just through it on Craig's List.

It's just not the system for me. I love Mario, Metroid and Zelda, but those are all done with and who knows if more will come. And in any case it's just not worth keeping the system around in hopes of getting a sequel to one or two of those. There are other games here and there that interest me, but just not enough to play over the next game on my 360 to buy list (have to prioritize as I'm so damn busy any more and have so little time for games) so I just can't justify keeping the Wii around anymore.

Anyhow, peace out. Was fun annoying you fanboys the past couple of years!
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Was fun annoying you fanboys the past couple of years![/quote]That sentence there is at the heart of every argument I've ever had with you. Your positions aren't really that offensive - I've never taken issue with Pittpizza, and he and you agree on many, many things - it's that "Lulz fanboys, don't be so serious lol!" thing that just gets to me.

Not saying that to start an argument or create a bitch-fest or anything, just getting it out there.
 
I wouldnt sell your Wii to family or people you'll occasionally be in close proximity to. Your casual contact with it might be enough to get some more complaints out of you.

Craigslist it and get more money for it.
 
I'm actually surprised he'd sell it. It's clearly given him the most mileage. I mean he gets to play games and then complain about playing them. That's like double-double-dipping.

That's more than I can say about lots of other people and other systems.

TC - When you are an arrogant bastard and place yourself in a position you yourself deem unassailable, of course it's easy to base your entire argument on "Oh you idiots fanboyz." It's like how the one guy with a well in his backyard gets to sell water during a drought. Except, really, it's more like a guy with a well in his backyard who goes around during the rain and says things like "Oh you assholes! Wanting my well water! IT'S THE ONLY WATER IN THE ENTIRE WORLD!"

I wonder how the Xbox fanboys are going to handle the inevitable "GAWD ARE THERE ANY OTHER GAMES BESIDES SHOOTERS" for the next....forever.
 
[quote name='Strell']
TC - When you are an arrogant bastard and place yourself in a position you yourself deem unassailable...[/quote]I'm gonna have to stop you right there. I'm already a fucking expert on the topic.
 
I've still gotta apologize to Jarvis' brother Mike for all the verbal abuse he's taken from me those times we were on the same team.

You wanna play tonight? A bit of 1v1?
 
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