Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - *Its Over...Toshiba Swings White Flag*

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[quote name='dallow']RB Films Drops HD-DVD Support because of HD-DVD AVS Forum posters (yes, seriously)



http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/20/rb-films-to-exclude-hd-dvd-for-future-releases/

I loled.[/quote]
Yeah I remember those threads. People really were asshats. For every one guy who said "thanks for taking the time to make a great looking and sounding release" (that would be me) there were 400 who said "you fucking crippled the audio to prove a point" or other such horseshit, despite the fact that the HD DVD version had very nice 96/24 DTS-HD HR audio at 3.0Mbps--probably the highest quality lossy track that's ever been offered on either format.

I for one, don't blame him. He doesn't make a real profit on HiDef releases--just does it for the love of the media and to help the industry grow--so it's just not worth it when almost everyone acts like stupid spoiled children.
 
Ultimately, I'm sure that he would weather the insults if the sales/profits were there, so it isn't all about "jerks." But I'm sure it made it far easier to stop supporting them. Why go where you aren't wanted?

He's well known for utilizing the relative strengths of each format, too, IIRC.
 
I know I'm new here and all... but I read the R&B threads on AVS. I give him respect for his work and publicly stating things but how this carried out in the end shows that even professionals, from amir to R&B films, show that they themselves get a little carried away. Take a look at R&B for this example. They seemed to lash out at HD DVD fans on AVS. Some were extreme (as we have seem similar from Blu-ray fanatics) but what is his intent on even mentioning this?

They made a blind study based on screen caps of a nature film (Nature's Journey) that was optimized for each format. In these screen caps we noticed BARELY that one version had more detail, but not significant enough to point it out and definitely not significant enough to point it out as the film is playing. Both showed that both are suitable for HDM. (HD DVD & Blu-ray = 2 solutions to the same problem). In the end, R&B seemed very Blu biased but his own studies/tests yielded no difference (in fact based on what I mentioned, the 'better' version based on this study was in fact the HD DVD version with it's lower specs ;)). I think as a professional he should have come out with a statement like 'we are going Blu exclusive because of the theoretical advantage due to more disk space/higher bandwidth or how it makes our lives easier due to the higher bitrates' rather than siding with the obvious HDM winner and then publicly pointing fingers at HD DVD supporters on AVS.
Let's just say egos, or passions, are flairing out of control.

I support both formats but heavily favor HD DVD not for the BS nonsense all the brand loyalists preach but because the format is final, is ready NOW and price structure is just more sound in my book... just in case anyone wanted to know my intentions ;) and yes I am one of the few rare breeds that absolutely LOVED the combo idea!
 
[quote name='cuco33']...and yes I am one of the few rare breeds that absolutely LOVED the combo idea![/QUOTE]

I liked the idea as well, if they could do it and get prices down.

One of the things holding me back from taking the HDM plunge is the fact that I'd only be able to watch them at home on my main TV.

Where as with DVDs I can watch in my bed room, on my laptop when traveling, at my girlfriends place, at any of my friends houses, at my parents etc. And I in fact do a lot of movie watching outside of my home theater, so it is an issue for me as I'm essentially paying for a more expensive version of a movie that would look much better on my HT, but limit my options form where I could watch it.

Combo discs solve that problem--but I'm not willing to pay current prices for them since I just don't care enough about high def to pay a premium. I'm a movie buff, but not much of a videophile.
 
Something I was looking forward to more than the TL51 (triple layered 51gb) disks were the TL twin format (essentially SD and HD on the same side without losing the disk art). I hope Blu-ray in the future would adopt this and make it work some how... it'll allow more people to embrace HDM since not everyone has a player in every room (see poster above as perfect example).
 
People are seeing Paramount titles popping up on Amazon UK this afternoon w/ March release dates. Some stuff that's been out before (in the US, at any rate), like Trading Places and Failure to Launch, but also more recent releases that never made it to Blu-Ray, like Anchorman.

No word if this is an indicator of something big happening, or if Amazon UK needs to sack some buffoon. ;)
 
[quote name='cuco33']I hope that's a good thing :D[/QUOTE]

People seem to like geko so it is.

Could you reveal the full pic of that booth babe from HDD or what?
 
Without going back some 100+ pages in this thread I'll make it short n simple for my take on things. I'm a debateable MOFO so bare with me :cool:
I have always thought as neutral and unbiased as possible but I have always leaned red (HD DVD) for many MANY reasons.

This war is coming to an end, I think we all can agree on this. I had no issues embracing both formats but I don't think the masses felt the same. 1 format had to come out on top otherwise HDM would remain a very small niche line of products. But what I find most striking is that it wasn't the PS3 effect that won it for Blu-ray, nor the weekly Nielsen's VideoScan data dominance for 2007, nor higher bandwidth/bitrate, nor larger disk capacity, nor anti scratch coating, nor more studio support, nor more industry support that won it for Blu-ray... It was the latest Warner Bros announcement and the apparent $620 million that was paid to make this happen ($120mil to Fox to stay in place, $500mil to WB to come over... this is all rumors but very good and valid ones. I knew from the get go that the winner of HDM would get WB and to get WB to go exclusive to either side would require a big payment as well as the best incentives). Now we can see a Blu-ray future but I still have my gripes with Blu...

I think my only real main issues about Blu-ray is the compatibility issues, both realistic and potential, due to an incomplete spec and the obvious arrogance of the BDA claiming superiority of an unfinished product. Remember that over 400 titles on each format have visual and audible spectactular works as well as absolute shit transfers and crappy audio tracks. Both do the same thing. The BDA has since inception relied heavily on the PS3 and even up until today still do so. You only need to look at what they said at this year's CES. I have an A2 (with 40+ HD DVDs) as well as a PS3 (JUST started building my collection) but eventually want a stand alone. I don't like to hear how BD reps say the consumer should know what we are getting into when buying current stand alone BD players and when asked about issues with the new Java coding on newer disks having issues or even playing on current stand alones. But hey, at least my PS3 will hold me over until then!
Oh yeah, and about those extra features BD guys bash... I love extras and I know most don't but I personally know a good amount of people who love them also. I'm very disappointed, to say the list, the lack luster features in T2 on Blu-ray and can see a double dipping of the mass Blu-rays when BD2.0 profile becomes the norm... I just hope that Blu-ray people fix the apparent issues and make the format unified. Essentially fix the shit that the BDA has released onto the public... :bomb:
 
[quote name='Sarang01']People seem to like geko so it is.

Could you reveal the full pic of that booth babe from HDD or what?[/quote]

I've actually been looking for it for some time... so let's cross my fingers that I find it :D
 
It all makes sense cuco.

I only like BD for the greater storage capacity and higher possible bitrates.
No other reason.

I blame the unfinished spec due to their having to release early due to HD DVD coming out so soon. Can't blame them for not wanting to be left behind.

The lack of extras on many earlier titles I can blame on studios.
Wish every title had at least commentary and extra scenes. I almost never watch anything other than that.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol: Alright, if you say so, man. 2007 wasn't enough to convince you?[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm just crazy or some type of wacked out optimistic but 2007 didn't seem that bad.

We had 2 neutral studios pick two separate formats, one exclusive studio bow out thanks to very bad sales, actual disc sales ratio staying relatively the same, day and date exclusive blockbusters selling about the same amount, alot of HD-DVD standalones pushed out in Q4, and Target/Blockbuster going Blu.

So a year of growth for both formats and good/bad things happening to both.

Right now, we are still in the wake of Warner's decision and eventually things will settle back down just like after Paramount left you guys earlier in the year. Universal/Paramount are staying put and the loss of Warner is causing Toshiba to become very aggressive with standalone prices.

Also, who wasn't expecting the ratio for last week to be skewed? Blu-Ray had a end of BOGO and a few day-and-date released while HD-DVD had 2 catalog titles. If the ratio stays the same (80ish/20ish) when American Gangster/Beuwolf/Bee Movie/etc are released, than I'll admit we have a huge problem...but I seriously doubt that will be the case.
 
On a different note, here's a pretty interesting interview with Ken Graffeo.

In an exclusive interview with BetaNews, Ken Graffeo, executive vice president for Universal Studios and also the co-president of HD DVD, provided a behind-the-scenes look at the high-def industry and said that, despite the rumors, HD DVD is here to stay. But he does leave the door open to ending the format war by coming to some sort of an agreement with Blu-ray.

Nate Mook: Let's start with a little background. You work for Universal, but you are also the co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. Does this create a conflict of interest?

Ken Graffeo: I am the executive vice president of high-def strategic marketing. So my role at Universal is in the high-def format, and being that we're in HD DVD exclusively, that's where I'm concentrated. We setup the Promotional Group in the early summer of 2006, and board members include Microsoft, Toshiba, HP, Intel, Paramount, Universal and Warner Bros. It's very similar to the Blu-ray Disc Association -- we have committees and our goal is to work together educating the consumer and our retailers on the format.

Nate Mook: How does it change things in the Promotional Group now that Warner Bros. has stated its intention to go Blu-ray exclusive once its contract obligations end?

Ken Graffeo: Well, we heard about the whole move when everyone else did -- when a lot of us were on planes flying to CES in Las Vegas. To be very honest with you, we have not addressed that yet -- Warner is still releasing HD DVD titles up until May. Warner has always been in two formats, and prior to Paramount's switch, they had been in two formats, so now that Warner is exclusive... we just haven't addressed it yet.

NM: There was a lot of surprise when you canceled the CES press conference and meetings after Warner jumped ship. It appeared to many that you were simply giving up. Two weeks after the fact, do you regret canceling everything?

KG: It's very easy to look back and say "I could have" because you always know the result. But at the time... imagine the orchestration of a press event with the presenters, the scripts, the entire presentation, videos that were produced -- everything. The crew was already setting up and we were on a plane on Friday, so not being able to get back to everyone to say "how do we make a change for Sunday" was very difficult. And what are the answers? We had no idea because we were reading and hearing about Warner's move the same time everyone else was.

If we had our press event on Monday, it would have been different, but because it was right there on Sunday and we heard Friday afternoon we couldn't even get to everybody. If I had to go back, it was probably the right thing to do. The entire flow of the presentation would have had to been changed. When we found out at the last minute, we had to regroup and say "Toshiba, what are you doing?" and we didn't have any answers. I hate to stand in front of someone and say I don't have an answer, I don't know what's going on.

At that time, not knowing and being so last minute, we had to make some changes. I will say that Toshiba went forward with their press event, which I applaud them for.

NM: After Warner essentially stabbed you in the back, speculation was rampant that Universal and Paramount would do the same, effectively killing HD DVD. There was also a lot of talk about the phrase "current" being used in the statements. Where does Universal stand on this -- are you willing to say you have an ongoing, future commitment?

KG: First of all, I want to say that none of those rumors were substantiated. Nobody ever talked to us. I know nobody talked to Paramount because Brenda, their PR person, sent out a statement immediately. This is business as usual for us and there are no plans to make any changes. We just made an announcement of our new HD DVD titles yesterday, with American Gangster. We also have a lot of other things planned. It's business as usual.

NM: Sony claims that the PS3 has given Blu-ray the market lead -- is this just posturing so Blu-ray can tout higher sales numbers? Is the PS3 really seen in Hollywood as a device that sells movies?

KG: I'll go back to what we've said over and over: the set-top player is the primary movie device. If you look at the attach rate of how many movies are bought for dedicated HD DVD players versus how many movies were sold for the PS3 and the Blu-ray set-top players combined, it's a 4 to 1 gap. Which says that people who own game machines are not buying at the same rate as someone who owns a set-top. And on the DVD side, your primary player is a set-top.

If you go to a store -- let's say a Best Buy or a Circuit City -- and buy an HDTV and then you want to get your movies to look better, you go to the DVD section -- you don't go to the game section. We have always been believers, not only historically but looking at a lot of recent research that has been done, that for the consumer their preference is a set-top.

The one thing that's different now compared with VHS is that when you bought a DVD player, you could not play your VHS on it. People didn't really have libraries in the days of VHS, because movies were really rented -- 80% of the business was rental. Today it's different because both Blu-ray and HD DVD are backwards compatible, so you have to take that into consideration. In turn, people want a set-top player that lets them play their current movies just as they do now, not on a game console.

NM: Price seems to be the major leverage HD DVD has, even with less studios than Blu-ray. Do you still believe other studios will come around if you sell enough players? This was the belief when we spoke to Microsoft's Kevin Collins 8 months ago.

KG: I can't speak for the other studios, because I don't know how they are thinking. But what was very encouraging is that when we were at CES we met with a lot of retailers. And the retailers openly said, that as much as they hate having two formats they are not making any changes, because they want to wait for what the consumer does. We've always said we want to follow the consumer.

Consumers right now are buying upconverting players -- they are outselling the next-gen players combined by 10 to 1 every month. They are affordable because they are under $200 -- the average price is $85 -- and consumers want to see their movies better. So pricing is very important. We saw that on DVD: as soon as price point went under $200 and as soon as it started getting close to $100 players really started taking off because you're hitting very consumer-friendly prices. If you want to hit the mass market, you have to be consumer-friendly in price. If you want to be a niche electronic, you're going to be high priced.

NM: From a strictly consumer standpoint, HD DVD seems to make the most sense: players are cheaper, combination discs are possible, which enables a smooth transition. Blu-ray players are still in flux and current models except the PS3 won't be upgradable to Profile 2.0. Blu-ray is pitching players that will be obsolete in a year, and discs that lack the interactivity found on HD DVD. Why hasn't there been more of a marketing message on this from HD DVD?

KG: The consumer today is very confused about HD. Only 12% of all households are getting HD programming, but 35% of households have HDTVs. We have spent a lot of time, and will continue to try to educate the consumer because there's a lot of confusion on what this means. When you're watching a TV show and the logo says in high definition and you don't have your source for high definition, it further adds to the confusion. People don't understand this.

People have a library of DVDs, people understand HD and know it looks better. But they're not thinking about it from a format perspective, they are thinking "I want my movies in high-def."

I think education has been very important and is something we have to continue doing. In Toshiba's recent press release, they said they will have an aggressive marketing campaign that will be launched very soon that will complement their new pricing strategy.

Nate Mook: Apple CEO Steve Jobs recently said that "clearly, Blu-ray won the format war," but noted that all next-generation physical media won't serve a purpose, because consumers will receive content digitally. What are your thoughts on this? NBC Universal is investing in online delivery of content and Hulu.com.

Ken Graffeo: First off all, the technology today is not ready to provide that full experience of getting the high-quality video instantaneously to the home. You've got broadband issues and things like that. Will that technology be there? Yes. Can I tell you when? It's not next year. I think you're beginning to see a lot more open systems and more collaboration, because right now you have so many unique systems and nothing is compatible. That's been the biggest problem, but you're beginning to see the walls break down.

I always look at VOD (video on demand) that goes right to the house, and DVD buy rates never change. I think what you have to do is look at the consumer today -- the younger consumer -- and say "where are they going," because that's going to be the future. Today when you look at who is purchasing movies, it's those 35 and older -- and they're not as savvy with technology as the younger audience is. The younger audience is the one that would be more comfortable with digital delivery.

The DVD player was the fastest selling electronics product ever. In 5 years, you had over 50% of the market. The reason why is because it was plug-and-play. You put a disc in and you pressed play. With HD DVD, the DVD Forum was looking at the future -- that's why you have an Ethernet and USB port mandatory, because they are thinking of the transition to the next generation.

But people collect movies like they did records, and share movies, which isn't possible in digital. And today, in order for the digital world to take off, it has to be very consumer friendly -- like plug and plug. As soon as you get complicated, you can't go after the mass market. Once it gets to being plug-and-play, you could see a shift. People once thought rental would always be the king, and now you have sell-through.

Over the course of the upcoming years -- the next 5, 8, 10 years -- physical media is still going to be dominant. That's not to say you're not going to have digital, because it's going to come, but it won't reach the masses very quickly.

Nate Mook: Is this format war going to be decided by the Hollywood studios and the manufacturers, or can the consumers have a voice? Over 1 million HD DVD owners is not a small number, and those consumers clearly don't want the format to go anywhere.

Ken Graffeo: Where the consumer has a say is what they do and what they purchase. That's probably the biggest statement that could be made. Word of mouth is the most powerful way to communicate. If you walk into someone's house and watch a football game on their HDTV, you'll want one. Most people are very happy with their DVD, but when they see a 1080p movie, it blows them away.

1 million units starts word of mouth -- people get exposed, people see it. When you're dealing with 200,000, you're at the early adopters and that's not really going to spread. That's why HDTVs finally started taking off, because consumers walked into their neighbors' houses and said "Look at that flat thing on the wall, that's great." You saw in November and December, everyone was aggressive with pricing. You could see how consumers are willing to buy HD movies when you get to an affordable price.

We released American Gangster and put it on combo disc (with DVD format on one side and HD DVD format on the other), because if there was confusion about the future, you don't lose an investment because you have both an HD DVD and a DVD. Look at how many machines exist with DVD. We don't want to limit our customers; we want to be as consumer-friendly as possible. It's hard to communicate everything, but once you start getting into the mass world, word of mouth is also very important.

NM: Is there any possibility of coming together with Blu-ray to unify the standards at this point, perhaps with hybrid players?

KG: Well, I'm never going to say it never can be done. I think everyone would like to see things work out, and I don't think anyone has any ill intention in this. It was a year and a half ago when we tried to put things together and it was unfortunate when it fell apart before. I think anything is possible, and again it comes back to the consumer who has the final voice.

NM: A recent report showed Blu-ray with 90% of the DVD recorder market in Japan. Does HD DVD plan to invest in this market? It seems there is little demand for DVD recorders in the States.

KG: DVD recorders are very big in Japan. In fact, I think the majority of DVD hardware in Japan is DVD recorders. There has never been a market here in the US, even though DVD recorders have been available. HD DVD does have recorders in Japan, but not in the United States, where most people have digital video recorders instead.

NM: What's the next step for HD DVD?

KG: I think Toshiba has put a very aggressive program in place not only with price, but also with marketing. We have been talking to the consumer, letting them make choices. We also had our big new release yesterday announcing American Gangster. The film has all of the interactivity and Internet features, and we're continuing to release titles. When I say business as usual, it's business as usual in releasing. But Toshiba has really stepped up with their campaign to the consumer.

NM: Where do things stand on CH-DVD, the Chinese format that's based on HD DVD. It seems to me that is a huge market with 2 billion people, and it's compatible with HD DVD. If studios want to sell in CH-DVD in China, wouldn't it make sense to also sell HD DVDs in the Unites States?

KG: Well, I know that CH-DVD players are in production and their date is in time for the Beijing Olympics. They are forecasting sales of somewhere around 8 million HDTVs because the Olympics are broadcast in high-def and the CH-DVD players are going to be launched in conjunction with that.

When you look at the Chinese market form a studio distribution standpoint, because of a lot of the past piracy issues it's not a developed market like most of Europe and US for the studios selling movies. Everybody is working to try to move forward with that, but I think it's further down the road. The more important issue than high-def in China right now is how to distribute without a fear of piracy.

NM: Will all future Universal HD DVD releases be combination discs?

KG: All of our new releases that Universal has made since last September have been combo discs [with standard DVD on one side]. We have no plans to change that, and our retail partners are saying if you want to go to the mass market, you don't want to limit consumers into only being able to play it on one device.

NM: Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today, Ken. We, and our readers, appreciate it.
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http://www.betanews.com/article/Int...ffeo_says_HD_DVD_is_here_to_stay/1200951636/1
 
Please identify the interesting parts for me. I must have missed them, while laughing particularly hard at Graffeo's amazing insight that he uses to declare that we don't go to the games section of a store to buy movies.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Please identify the interesting parts for me. I must have missed them, while laughing particularly hard at Graffeo's amazing insight that he uses to declare that we don't go to the games section of a store to buy movies.[/QUOTE]

Well, the whole thing was a pretty interesting read IMO.

I guess for you, the interesting thing would be Universal saying that it will be business as usual and that the Warner thing really was a last minute decision leaving them with a problem they haven't really looked at yet.

- edit And I don't see what's so funny about that comment. He's basically saying what I have been saying for over a year now.

If you look at the attach rate of how many movies are bought for dedicated HD DVD players versus how many movies were sold for the PS3 and the Blu-ray set-top players combined, it's a 4 to 1 gap. Which says that people who own game machines are not buying at the same rate as someone who owns a set-top.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Well, the whole thing was a pretty interesting read IMO.

I guess for you, the interesting thing would be Universal saying that it will be business as usual and that the Warner thing really was a last minute decision.[/quote]

It was a good read, seems that they know what they need to do (should have done in 07) to step it up. I was really doubtfull of what was going to happen, the interview has me fully cheering for an HD DVD comeback. Their stance on combos makes complete sense from their standpoint, just wish that they drop the prices on their combos to match non-combo disc pricing. I'm really interested to see what kind of mass marketing strategy they pull out.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Well, the whole thing was a pretty interesting read IMO.

I guess for you, the interesting thing would be Universal saying that it will be business as usual and that the Warner thing really was a last minute decision leaving them with a problem they haven't really looked at yet.[/quote]

It's not "uninteresting," but it's just him flapping his gums. He doesn't answer the first question (about conflict of interest) at all, offers up a good bit of "Rah Rah" for HD DVD owners, repeats talking points about upconverters, (thankfully) disregards the digital distribution era, and that's about it.

I'm curious if Mook asked him if Universal had planned to go neutral at all, or about the Universal folks who were checking out BD plants several months back - I won't say Mook didn't, but it's safe to say he got no answer, based again on Graffeo's inherent conflict of interest.

- edit And I don't see what's so funny about that comment. He's basically saying what I have been saying for over a year now.
Click to expand...

Well, it's like saying "the earth is round, guys!" and acting like you're a fuckin' prophet for saying so. But the "movies are in the movies section, guys" comments only serve to parry the main point: Blu-Ray handily defeated HD DVD in disc sales, and that gap is growing every week. It also fails to deal with the point that BD standalones outsold HD DVD standalones in that precious 4th quarter, and that Graffeo's major argument falls apart when you realize that BD standalones outnumber HD.

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking HD DVD has a chance at all. For your own sake - not mine.

EDIT: Like Linkin, I appreciate the commitment to combos - but I like the DM portable file idea far better. It's just a matter of seeing if studios cling to either Sony's method, or the FOX/iTunes method (which I prefer) - let alone if the FOX Blu-Ray movies support this in the future.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']EDIT: Like Linkin, I appreciate the commitment to combos - but I like the DM portable file idea far better. It's just a matter of seeing if studios cling to either Sony's method, or the FOX/iTunes method (which I prefer) - let alone if the FOX Blu-Ray movies support this in the future.[/quote]

I liked the idea behind the Blu-Ray portable download thing but the fact that its currently made for PSP only is a big mistake, they should open it up for any media player.
 
Yeah, I don't see any studio other than Sony using it. I'm a little skeptical that they're truly going to limit it to the PSP, but you never know.

BTW, I was streaming videos to my PSP from my PS3 that were stored on my Mac. Holy fuck that's awesome. Really, fuckin, awesome. Just wanted to digress.

OTOH, if Apple can persuade studios to do what Fox has w/ DVDs (the "Blue Harvest" DVD is the first, I think - the DVD comes with a one-time use code that allows you to download and keep a digital mp4 of the feature), and have them implement it on their BD movies as well? Hot damn. I don't mind a code at all over having the content on disc.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Yeah, I don't see any studio other than Sony using it. I'm a little skeptical that they're truly going to limit it to the PSP, but you never know.

BTW, I was streaming videos to my PSP from my PS3 that were stored on my Mac. Holy fuck that's awesome. Really, fuckin, awesome. Just wanted to digress.

OTOH, if Apple can persuade studios to do what Fox has w/ DVDs (the "Blue Harvest" DVD is the first, I think - the DVD comes with a one-time use code that allows you to download and keep a digital mp4 of the feature), and have them implement it on their BD movies as well? Hot damn. I don't mind a code at all over having the content on disc.[/QUOTE]

Not to derail, what program did you use Myke? I've been looking for a program to run on my iBook.

On topic, I got Superbad the other day, and compared it to the regular dvd. I was a bit dissapointed it didn't look that much better.
 
http://www.nullriver.com/index/products/medialink

Try the demo first to see how well it works - it installs in your system preferences panel, and all you need to really do is turn it on, turn your PS3 on, and enjoy.

Now if only the PS3 would stream internet radio, since my laptop speakers stink, and I'd like to rock out to The Current while working (trust me, check out the radio station).

Can't have it all, I suppose. But not having to copy stuff back and forth to the PSP's memory card slot is great.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']- edit And I don't see what's so funny about that comment. He's basically saying what I have been saying for over a year now.[/QUOTE]

Everyone knew BDs attach rate was dismal (mainly due to the PS3), I just disagreed with those who overemphasized the importance of it. Looking at the current state of the war, clearly hardware/software sales were more important than attach rates.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It's not "uninteresting," but it's just him flapping his gums. He doesn't answer the first question (about conflict of interest) at all, offers up a good bit of "Rah Rah" for HD DVD owners, repeats talking points about upconverters, (thankfully) disregards the digital distribution era, and that's about it.

I'm curious if Mook asked him if Universal had planned to go neutral at all, or about the Universal folks who were checking out BD plants several months back - I won't say Mook didn't, but it's safe to say he got no answer, based again on Graffeo's inherent conflict of interest.
[/QUOTE]

He does answer the first question. The answer is basically "my job at Universal is based in HD-DVD so continuing it elsewhere isn't a conflict of interest since the interest are the same on both sides"

[quote name='mykevermin']Well, it's like saying "the earth is round, guys!" and acting like you're a fuckin' prophet for saying so. But the "movies are in the movies section, guys" comments only serve to parry the main point: Blu-Ray handily defeated HD DVD in disc sales, and that gap is growing every week. It also fails to deal with the point that BD standalones outsold HD DVD standalones in that precious 4th quarter, and that Graffeo's major argument falls apart when you realize that BD standalones outnumber HD.
[/QUOTE]

Well, the whole "handily defeated HD-DVD in disc sales" goes solely back to massive number of PS3 in the wild. I'm pretty sure the argument is that, in theory, now that standalone prices are hitting critical mass the amount of discs moved should be increased since people are buying in solely for HDM instead of games (which is slightly flawed since they are really pushing HD-DVD players as "upconverting DVD players that also play those HD-DVD thingys")

Also, I'd like to see a link stating that BR standalones outsold HD-DVD standalones in Q4 and that BR standalones outnumber HD-DVD standalones. I tried to stay out of format warring in December so I could be slightly out of the loop but I really don't believe that I could be that much out of the loop. Last time I read, BR standalone sales weren't good at all and I have a hard time believing anybody buying a standalone when they could get a much more superior/upgradeable player (PS3) for $100 more.

[quote name='mykevermin']If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside - great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking HD DVD has a chance at all. For your own sake - not mine.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't think you remember any of my posts at all.

I've always been fairly realistic when it comes to a "winner".

Is there a chance that HD-DVD will make some type of insane comeback, overtake Blu-Ray and force Sony out of the industry? No.

Have I ever stated in any of my posts that HD-DVD will win the format war and rid the industry of the evil Sony? Nope, I always believed that even if everything that could have went wrong for Blu-Ray, did go wrong, Sony/MGM would have continued to support Blu-Ray exclusively.

Is there a chance that HD-DVD can get right back into the spot they were in before Warner left and continue to grow? Definitely.

That's the thing I don't think people understand. HD-DVD doesn't have to make that insane comeback, HD-DVD doesn't have to win. The format war isn't a football game or a race. Only thing HD-DVD needs to do is convince the public that there will (forever) be two formats and hold out long enough until affordable combo players are a normal thing in the marketplace.

They can easily do that with just Paramount/Universal on board. As long as there are still exclusive day-and-date releases being released on HD-DVD, there will be a spot for it in the marketplace. Paramount/Universal are enough to keep the people who are on the fence, on the fence and allow other people to buy into the format because, again, nobody wants to miss out on certain movies unless the buy-in price is very low which is the advantage HD-DVD currently has.

HD-DVD won't be dead until all of the major studio support leaves it.

[quote name='mykevermin']EDIT: Like Linkin, I appreciate the commitment to combos - but I like the DM portable file idea far better. It's just a matter of seeing if studios cling to either Sony's method, or the FOX/iTunes method (which I prefer) - let alone if the FOX Blu-Ray movies support this in the future.[/QUOTE]

I don't like that idea at all. It seems like they are trying to get around fair use by going "hey, we are giving you a digital copy, therefore you have no reason to try to make your own or make a backup"
 
[quote name='Sporadic']He does answer the first question. The answer is basically "my job at Universal is based in HD-DVD so continuing it elsewhere isn't a conflict of interest since the interest are the same on both sides"



Well, the whole "handily defeated HD-DVD in disc sales" goes solely back to massive number of PS3 in the wild. I'm pretty sure the argument is that, in theory, now that standalone prices are hitting critical mass the amount of discs moved should be increased since people are buying in solely for HDM instead of games (which is slightly flawed since they are really pushing HD-DVD players as "upconverting DVD players that also play those HD-DVD thingys")

Also, I'd like to see a link stating that BR standalones outsold HD-DVD standalones in Q4 and that BR standalones outnumber HD-DVD standalones. I tried to stay out of format warring in December so I could be slightly out of the loop but I really don't believe that I could be that much out of the loop. Last time I read, BR standalone sales weren't good at all and I have a hard time believing anybody buying a standalone when they could get a much more superior/upgradeable player (PS3) for $100 more.



I honestly don't think you remember any of my posts at all.

I've always been fairly realistic when it comes to a "winner".

Is there a chance that HD-DVD will make some type of insane comeback, overtake Blu-Ray and force Sony out of the industry? No.

Have I ever stated in any of my posts that HD-DVD will win the format war and rid the industry of the evil Sony? Nope, I always believed that even if everything that could have went wrong for Blu-Ray, did go wrong, Sony/MGM would have continued to support Blu-Ray exclusively.

Is there a chance that HD-DVD can get right back into the spot they were in before Warner left and continue to grow? Definitely.

That's the thing I don't think people understand. HD-DVD doesn't have to make that insane comeback, HD-DVD doesn't have to win. The format war isn't a football game or a race. Only thing HD-DVD needs to do is convince the public that there will (forever) be two formats and hold out long enough until affordable combo players are a normal thing in the marketplace.

They can easily do that with just Paramount/Universal on board. As long as there are still exclusive day-and-date releases being released on HD-DVD, there will be a spot for it in the marketplace. Paramount/Universal are enough to keep the people who are on the fence, on the fence and allow other people to buy into the format because, again, nobody wants to miss out on certain movies unless the buy-in price is very low which is the advantage HD-DVD currently has.

HD-DVD won't be dead until all of the major studio support leaves it.



I don't like that idea at all. It seems like they are trying to get around fair use by going "hey, we are giving you a digital copy, therefore you have no reason to try to make your own or make a backup"[/quote]

Problem is Paramount and Universal aren't going to stay exclusive forever. If there is more money to be made on the Blu-ray side they will switch. And I can't find the link now, but someone posted somewhere with the warner talks that one reason was Blu-ray standalones sold more.
 
[quote name='sporadic']Also, I'd like to see a link stating that BR standalones outsold HD-DVD standalones in Q4 and that BR standalones outnumber HD-DVD standalones. I tried to stay out of format warring in December so I could be slightly out of the loop but I really don't believe that I could be that much out of the loop. Last time I read, BR standalone sales weren't good at all and I have a hard time believing anybody buying a standalone when they could get a much more superior/upgradeable player (PS3) for $100 more.[/QUOTE]

There was even a picture in Toshiba's CES press show that showed a pie chart of standalones in the 4th quarter.
Toshiba's players were 48%, the rest BD, and a tiny sliver combo players.

I posted the pic in this thread, other sites reported the standalone BD win as well, I'm not digging for it.
 
[quote name='dallow']I bought a crapload of DVDs tonight and I don't care!

Watching Barbarella tonight.[/QUOTE]

Do you see THAT much of a difference between your dvds and blu-rays?

As I said before, my Superbad comparison left me disappointed.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']That's the thing I don't think people understand. HD-DVD doesn't have to make that insane comeback, HD-DVD doesn't have to win. The format war isn't a football game or a race. Only thing HD-DVD needs to do is convince the public that there will (forever) be two formats and hold out long enough until affordable combo players are a normal thing in the marketplace.[/QUOTE]

From what I've seen, it seems retailers, studios, and consumers are against this outcome and all believe it will prohibit the growth of HDM, so I think this outcome will be pretty unlikely. But HD-DVD has made a name for itself, and still has some huge backers who would love to see this happen, which kind of concerns me. At this point in the war, I see little reason for HD-DVD to continue to thrive. The competition was great at getting prices down, but now I think that DVD will provide enough competition for the one HD format.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Do you see THAT much of a difference between your dvds and blu-rays?

As I said before, my Superbad comparison left me disappointed.[/quote]

IDK about Superbad, but I have the combo-disc for 300 and have done some scene comparison on my 360HD-DVD and then on my old Kenwood progressive scan DVD via component and again with a Sony stand-alone up-converting DVD over hdmi.

The difference of native 1080p versus the other was pretty clear, but this is all anecdotal and done on my basement TV which doesn't upscale very well.

It is the only movie I have done this with but I think it may be film dependant. I wasn't real impressed with some of the older title transfers I have seen.
 
[quote name='dallow']I bought a crapload of DVDs tonight and I don't care!
[/QUOTE]

I continue to buy whatever I want on DVD as well. Like I said, I'm not a videophile, and there will be very few DVDs I upgrade to BR whenever I finally take the plunge anyway.

My DVD buying has dramatically slowed down the past couple of years. Netflix has helped with that (had an account for a bit over a year--was very late getting on that bandwagon) and just generally realizing I was seldom watching much in my collection anymore.

Mainly just because I've been much busier, and gotten back into gaming more the past couple of years.
 
Here you go Sporadic:

This is standalones only, no PS3, and no add ons.

hdmarketsdec07jan08.jpg

hdmarketsdjan081st2weeks.jpg


Tee hee!
 
[quote name='KingBroly']*Spit take

Wow. That's a big jump on week 1 to week 2 hardware numbers.[/quote]
There were probably a large number of NEGATIVE sales that week (returns of christmas presents, etc). Likely doesn't acurately reflect the units going out the door because of that. Those numbers will stabilize in the coming weeks, though obviously they won't come anywhere near the 1/5 numbers.
 
Somewhat off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread for a two line response to my question. Can someone please tell me why they don't make shooter on blu ray anymore?
 
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=883

Is it that more people went out and bought blu-ray stand alones, or that no one bought HD DVD players? Either way it looks really bad, but percentages don't give us the specifics. Was it a huge boom in blu-ray stand alone sales or a huge decline in the demand for HD DVD players?

I know for one that we can not even special order Blu-ray players at work. All but the Sharp are backordered. I could have sold a ton more if we could get them instock.
 
[quote name='rdwd39']Somewhat off topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread for a two line response to my question. Can someone please tell me why they don't make shooter on blu ray anymore?[/quote]Pretty sure that's the Paramount Studio title.
Paramount used to be neutral but went HD DVD only last year, so production of that title stopped.
That's one of the two Paramount BD titles that sells for a pretty penny.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']I liked the idea behind the Blu-Ray portable download thing but the fact that its currently made for PSP only is a big mistake, they should open it up for any media player.[/quote]

Well to my understanding it's not really a 'Blu-ray file' per say... The BD disk will have a video format that is compatible with the PSP, I think mpeg but I might be wrong. These files aren't massively huge and actually could fit on some current DVDs. But the studios would rather bastardize those disks with countless movie trailers rather than offer this benefit. Not sure exactly but I think it'ld be available only on Sony disks. Why would Fox or Warner put a PSP file on their disks? Just a thought..
 
[quote name='dpatel']From what I've seen, it seems retailers, studios, and consumers are against this outcome and all believe it will prohibit the growth of HDM, so I think this outcome will be pretty unlikely. But HD-DVD has made a name for itself, and still has some huge backers who would love to see this happen, which kind of concerns me. At this point in the war, I see little reason for HD-DVD to continue to thrive. The competition was great at getting prices down, but now I think that DVD will provide enough competition for the one HD format.[/QUOTE]

Here's my problem, why are two formats a problem in the market if each side only has exclusives supporting it? I mean right now that's not the case but later on it could be, both picking their side. In that case how is it a detriment to retailers?
Seriously for now HD DVD is better for very small indie studios to get their product out at all. I have my doubts some may be able to afford to get their product out on BR, possibly even for a couple years, depending on how quickly costs go down. I still doubt this will be ANYTIME soon.
Dallow I'm disappointed, why not wait? You know these assholes will just try to double dip you later for the HD version. That's part of the reason why I pretty much stopped buying DVD's entirely or at least for the most part.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Everyone knew BDs attach rate was dismal (mainly due to the PS3), I just disagreed with those who overemphasized the importance of it. Looking at the current state of the war, clearly hardware/software sales were more important than attach rates.[/quote]

I don't think the attach rate was the end all be all but it did speak volumes as to who buys movies. Look at how many PS3s are out there. It would take only a handful of PS3 owners to buy 1-2 films on Blu-ray to counter a single HD DVD owner who buys gobs of HD DVDs at one time.


[quote name='dallow']There was even a picture in Toshiba's CES press show that showed a pie chart of standalones in the 4th quarter.
Toshiba's players were 48%, the rest BD, and a tiny sliver combo players.

I posted the pic in this thread, other sites reported the standalone BD win as well, I'm not digging for it.[/quote]

Yeah I saw that too but I think Toshiba alone still surprised me (up until the WB announcement of course). They technically took on the entire industry alone and managed to get 1/2 the market. The Onkyo 805 is a tweaked Toshiba XA2. The Venturer model is a tweaked Toshiba HD-A3. And these 2 models weren't neccessarily available all quarter, nor readily available when they were (in other words, miniscule). What I think is troubling for HDM, not just Blu-ray, is these new BD stand alone adopters. How many of them 'should have expected' their new players might have issues playing newer BD disks right or if it all? BDA BETTER get this right... If new Java embedded BD2.0 disks don't play right in current stand alones on the market, DON'T RELEASE THEM!!! The potential backlash might be so strong that BD will be dropped like a crackbaby.
 
Cuco;

That's the problem it was ALL Toshiba.
Props to them, but you need more support than that.
And the substantial price drops made it so that no other CE manufacturers could even get in the game.

All the BD players are profiting off their players.
And it's paying off as standalones are now trumping HD DVD standalones even at ~twice the cost.

[quote name='Sarang01']Dallow I'm disappointed, why not wait? You know these assholes will just try to double dip you later for the HD version. That's part of the reason why I pretty much stopped buying DVD's entirely or at least for the most part.[/quote]Oh these aren't new movies or anything. Just older, smaller flicks that won't be on HD anytime soon.
 
[quote name='dallow']Cuco;

That's the problem it was ALL Toshiba.
Props to them, but you need more support than that.
And the substantial price drops made it so that no other CE manufacturers could even get in the game.

All the BD players are profiting off their players.
And it's paying off as standalones are now trumping HD DVD standalones even at ~twice the cost.

Oh these aren't new movies or anything. Just older, smaller flicks that won't be on HD anytime soon.[/quote]
Agreed that it was essentially all Toshiba. I don't get why other manufacturers on their side exclusively didn't release more players. I know RCA had theirs but that thing was a blast from the past styling, ugly as balls, and barely available. Sadly, all Toshiba's players were for the most part better than BD stand alones. Why do I say this? EVERY player on the HD DVD side played EVERY disk and feature on HD DVD. The same can't be said about Blu-ray asude for the PS3. This normally isn't a problem for those who want only the movie but the latest info is that these BD1.0 players might not even play the newer BD disks. I REALLY hope that's not true. Dual format players though would have been the norm if Warner didn't go exclusive in my book.

I wouldn't neccessarily say that all BD players are making a profit. To make a profit there's a threshold minimum units moved you have to pass first and since competition was around the prices were forceably dropped making that profit margin sold per player go away. Gen 1ish players absorded the higher cost points in manufacturing same as HD DVD's gen1 players cost Toshiba a chunk. I HIGHLY doubt Philips and Pioneer reached that point with any of their players. To be fair, let's look at the entry level HD DVD player (hd-a1 through hd-a3). The A1 was overdesigned and cost Toshiba a chunk to make. The A2 was cost reduced significantly and sold close to the selling price point. The A3 though was cost reduced even more and sold at a great profit. I read rumors that it cost Toshiba less than $50 to make the HD-A3 so even if they did a $100 'firesale' it would make money. I love my A2 though as it upscales very well. My PS3 is an excellent BD player (and gaming system) and I'm glad that it is upgradeable to 2.0 profile. You can't go wrong with a PS3 for BD playback but you surely can with a stand alone and in my book... that's just sad... I am waiting for a stand alone worthy of ownership. Since my company was acquired by Philips and me being a european and liking the company, I hope by the time my employee discount comes in I can upgrade to a bigger HDTV flat panel and a BD2.0 player from Philips that is great. I can hope can't I? :D
 
Toshiba players are not as trouble free as you make them out to be.

They need FW updates to fix a few things (including to playback a few discs in the past)
And many have inherent bugs.
All the 3rd gen players have broken de-interlacing as well. Just read the threads at AVS.

Yes, the BD standalones have their own quirks, but you will be able to play back newer BDs on old players, you just can't watch the 1.1 or 2.0 features.

A 2.0 standalone is the way to go, they'll be here soon.
 
[quote name='dallow']A 2.0 standalone is the way to go, they'll be here soon.[/quote]

That's until 2.1 or 3.0 hit sometime after right...Or are they know making 2.0 final hardware? With that said, is the PS3 assumed to be able to upgrade indefinately?
 
Geko answered that question for you already.

As far as movies are concerned, 2.0 is the end. There's other stuff planned for playback of SACD or something music related.

It would be nice if some cool new feature we can't even imagine right now were to be introduced down the line.


But all I need is the ability to watch the movie.
I was happy with 1.0.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']That's until 2.1 or 3.0 hit sometime after right...Or are they know making 2.0 final hardware? With that said, is the PS3 assumed to be able to upgrade indefinately?[/quote]
1.1 is supposed to be final, and includes all of the playback features that should have been standard at launch.

2.0 is optional, and ONLY relates to online content. People who don't intend to connect their players to the internet get absolutely zero value out of a 2.0 player over a 1.1 one.

3.0 is audio-only (think SACD or DVD-A) and has not been implemented, or even mentioned, by anyone. Hopefully it stays that way.
 
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