Georgia vs. Russia

A dire situation indeed for the long term.

While we back in the U.S. are still arguing about whether we should use our own resources, Russia had opened the throttle all the way on its own and is clearly setting up a future energy platform with goals of Russia joining the middle east in holding us by the energy short and curley's.

If we don't take some heavy and drastic action in some direction soon, we have a lifetime of Russian/Middle East double anal penetration to hand to our kids.
 
[quote name='62t']What are we suppose to do? Start a campaign to boycott Russian oil?[/QUOTE]

I wasn't going on for that type of reaction. I'm just saying it's very hypocritical of people (big shock there) to almost ignore this issue. Most of the information I've found out about this, I've had to go digging for on the internet or it's buried way down deep in some AP articles that don't even get a front page mention.

I guess it also irks me that these same critics who cry out for us to help in the third world don't say anything about something happening in the "major" world. Even if you factor out the relatively small size of Georgia, the Russians are involved and they are one of the major world powers. This isn't a game of who wants to be dictator for the week before being overthrown and executed, like what happens in some of the African or South American nations. This situation has an extremely high possibility of massive worldwide ramifications.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Yep. 5 Russians died for every Finn that died. Craziness.[/QUOTE]

While I am a fan of the winter war and it was a great victory for the Finn's, you have to remember that statistic wasn't because Finn's are extra cool fighters. The main cause for the Russian failure was most of their soldiers were recruited from Southern russia and forced to fight in Winter. They were unaccustomed to it. Not to mention, unmotivated.

A fast fact though, did you know Christopher Lee volunteered to fight for the Finn's in the Winter war?

I've always wondered why that wasn't included in any video games (or has it)?
 
[quote name='dafoomie']If Russia continues to escalate the situation, I see no alternative to military intervention. Georgia is too vital to US interests to allow to fall into Russian hands.

I think they are waiting for us to make a move before they back down.[/quote]

Please elaborate.

What value does Georgia offer the US that is greater than the American lives and money saved by letting Russia steamroll Georgia?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Please elaborate.

What value does Georgia offer the US that is greater than the American lives and money saved by letting Russia steamroll Georgia?[/quote]

Georgia is our beacon of democracy to the east. They're the "grand success." And if it comes to war with Russia, they're akin to what Cuba was to the Russians. From a militaristic and diplomatic point, they're necessary to us.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Georgia is our beacon of democracy to the east. They're the "grand success." And if it comes to war with Russia, they're akin to what Cuba was to the Russians. From a militaristic and diplomatic point, they're necessary to us.[/quote]

Fair enough.

How much money and American lives would you spend to keep Georgia free and democratic?

How are they different or more important than Ukraine, Poland or the Baltic republics?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Please elaborate.

What value does Georgia offer the US that is greater than the American lives and money saved by letting Russia steamroll Georgia?[/QUOTE]
Oil and natural gas from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea is transported through Georgia to Europe. Without Georgia, Russia has a monopoly on Europe's energy needs, and on Central Asia's energy production. They'd have Europe by the balls, and Russia isn't afraid to pull the plug on countries that displease them.

Georgia is vital, you do not even talk about giving NATO membership to small, insignificant states close to Russia with violent separatist movements. Without them, you only really have Russia and Iran.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']Dafoomie and DarkSage, your posts are begging the question "You and what army"?[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you're up with the news, but we're occupying a country less than 400 miles to the south with a rather large military force. We also have bases in Romania and a NATO base in Turkey.
 
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[quote name='dafoomie']I don't know if you're up with the news, but we're occupying a country less than 400 miles to the south with a rather large military force. We also have bases in Romania and a NATO base in Turkey.[/QUOTE]

That's true. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Since I don't think America has the political will for another conflict.

It will all come down to a rather complex equation of politics and U.N. and EU impotence, as to whether we will get involved directly.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']I don't know if you're up with the news, but we're occupying a country less than 400 miles to the south with a rather large military force. We also have bases in Romania and a NATO base in Turkey.[/QUOTE]

So how many of the what less than 5,000 or so US troops in Romania would be sent?

As for the ones already committed elsewhere you may not have noticed but a lot of those guys are rather busy at the moment.

So now that we got all the glibness out of the way do you care to answer the question?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Looks like this is escalating. Russia lied about leaving those two small provinces and have "conquered" one of the largest cities in central Georgia. The Russian army continues to move.[/quote]

Is this true or propaganda?

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said in Moscow. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds - these leaders must be taken under protection."
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Without Georgia, Russia has a monopoly on Europe's energy needs, and on Central Asia's energy production. They'd have Europe by the balls, and Russia isn't afraid to pull the plug on countries that displease them.[/quote]

I can see how this is bad for Europe. So, why doesn't Europe deal with the problem instead of looking at the US to come to their aid unilaterally?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Is this true or propaganda?

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said in Moscow. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds - these leaders must be taken under protection."[/quote]

A little bit of both. Putin's trying to be seen as the savior of the oppressed in the east. He needs to hold onto something for justification of attacking a sovereign nation.

I'd rather not speculate, but I don't find it hard to believe that Georgian forces messed with the South Ossetians pretty good. But he's making it sound like the Georgians only went after the weak, when the only targets that make sense for them would be the separatists/rebels. Georgia's not so stupid as to attempt a genocide when their goal is to regain control of their territory.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Anybody like stats? It's interesting to see just what each side is up against.

ARMED FORCES COMPARED


GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95



RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550


Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

Courtesy of: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm[/QUOTE]

You need a pass to get into the janes site... anyone want to put this to scope by releasing the US numbers?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I can see how this is bad for Europe. So, why doesn't Europe deal with the problem instead of looking at the US to come to their aid unilaterally?[/QUOTE]
They should. I didn't suggest that the US should unilaterally expel Russia from Georgia, but the US will be a big part of any international force.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']A little bit of both. Putin's trying to be seen as the savior of the oppressed in the east. He needs to hold onto something for justification of attacking a sovereign nation.

I'd rather not speculate, but I don't find it hard to believe that Georgian forces messed with the South Ossetians pretty good. But he's making it sound like the Georgians only went after the weak, when the only targets that make sense for them would be the separatists/rebels. Georgia's not so stupid as to attempt a genocide when their goal is to regain control of their territory.[/QUOTE]

I forgot where I read it, but Russia was quick to put up on it's state run news channel, Ossetian women that claimed Georgians wrangled up 50 civies and burned them in a shed, and ran over people with tanks.

The important thing to remember here is that Russia is a master of Propaganda. There is no third party source to corroborate this stuff, there rarely is. Just look at the Serbian conflict - huge claims of massive horrors committed that people today still believe, even in the face of very little proof. The U.S. entered the Serbian conflict largely based on those unproven claims (although I'm sure Trq, and others, would say otherwise).

Propaganda is a powerful tool that all sides use to confuse the issues of war. But Russia is almost entirely built on propaganda, so they are adept.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Just look at the Serbian conflict - huge claims of massive horrors committed that people today still believe, even in the face of very little proof. The U.S. entered the Serbian conflict largely based on those unproven claims (although I'm sure Trq, and others, would say otherwise).[/QUOTE]
Wow, just... Wow. If the mass graves aren't enough for you, we've got 400 Dutch troops who observed the massacre at Srebrenica, along with video.

You're either Serbian or completely uninformed.
 
I'm not denying anything. Yes there were mass graves found, with dozens of bodies in each.

Srebrencia did happen. Maddeline Albreight convinced intervention based on the "thousands" killed at Srebrencia (later 7,000). Only 400 bodies were ever found (last I checked).

None of that means anything though. My only point is you hear the key hot-button words like "thousands of murders" (or in Serbias case, tens of thousands) or "geonicide" (which Putin is already using) thrown out all the time to justify intervention, which when researched much later is usually not the case.

The lesson? If you are ever being attacked, or need to retaliate, exaggerate absolutely everything you can. Some will believe you and come help, and whether they verify later is inconsequential to your immediate needs.
 
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Based on what I have been reading lately, I am starting to get the feeling that they want to send a message to the rest of the world, "fuck with Mother Russia and you will be fucked up hard!"
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Here is some "contrary" reports, for anyone interested in other views of what's going on.[/quote]

It is always nice to see how the other side views things.

The odd questions are: Did the US supply and train Georgia? Did Georgia attack anybody other than rebels?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm not denying anything. Yes there were mass graves found, with dozens of bodies in each.

Srebrencia did happen. Maddeline Albreight convinced intervention based on the "thousands" killed at Srebrencia (later 7,000). Only 400 bodies were ever found (last I checked).[/QUOTE]
Approximately 4000 to 6000 have been exhumed, they can not confirm an exact number because the various body parts are disorganized. Other sites have been found but not dug, because the backlog on identifying and organizing the bodies they have is too great.

But your greater point is probably correct (on the current situation, not Serbia), the Russians and Georgians are both throwing out the Ethnic Cleansing card with no evidence to support it.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']It is always nice to see how the other side views things.

The odd questions are: Did the US supply and train Georgia? Did Georgia attack anybody other than rebels?[/QUOTE]

I think there are still US soldiers advising Georgia, apparently we helped shuttle Georgian troops from Iraq to Ossetia as well.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I thought about flash point events.

If a SAM knocks down an American cargo plane filled with Georgian soldiers, how do you think the US will respond?[/QUOTE]

Before or after November?

Much different answers :)
 
Can someone please explain to the Bush/Obama-loving gheys in this forum that this conflict has much more to deal with than simply securing "freedom and democracy" for poor little Georgia?
 
[quote name='level1online']Can someone please explain to the Bush/Obama-loving gheys in this forum that this conflict has much more to deal with than simply securing "freedom and democracy" for poor little Georgia?[/quote]

Is there anybody here thinking it is just that?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Is there anybody here thinking it is just that?[/quote]

well, yes, as in regards to the reasoning why U.S. & other forces have to intervene.
 
Now we get to see why Russia did this... They're asking to keep both disputed territories, plus they want a demilitarized zone around both (which makes Georgia's most important pipeline vulnerable).

Somehow, I think those proposed US bases in Azerbaijan and Georgia will be green lighted.
 
Yay, Russia did what the American government wanted for the most time, more U.S. bases near the tip of Eurasia! LETTUCE CELEBRATE!
 
[quote name='speedracer']For the life of me, I can't figure out who the bad guy is here.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That's really my biggest concern. You see that pattern more and more in these European conflicts. It's frustrating.
 
Wow,


This is really an interesting time is it not.

Does anyone ahve the force numbers of the US similar to those found on page 1?
 
[quote name='HotShotX']Unless they have oil or someone to scapegoat as a dictator.

~HotShotX[/quote]

And they do have oil...
 
[quote name='Snake2715']You need a pass to get into the janes site... anyone want to put this to scope by releasing the US numbers?[/QUOTE]

Srsly, if anyone has access to Jane's Sentinel start posting stats.
I wanna see China vs. USA
 
[quote name='speedracer']For the life of me, I can't figure out who the bad guy is here.[/quote]

Georgia, they started it with a sneak attack.

The media, for telling you the exact opposite.

Our gov't, for backing Georgia.http://www.marines.com

oh.... and Russia.
 
wtf is the US doing?

they shouldn't even be involved in this and i don't see how this any different from the US invading iraq.
 
[quote name='kainzero']
they shouldn't even be involved in this and i don't see how this any different from the US invading iraq.[/quote]

Well considering the Georgian president ASKED the West for support, and he's been in quite a bit of direct contact with our president, it sorta seems like we've been invited.

Maybe you misunderstand the situation. See, we're not attacking a nation. We're sending soldiers with supplies to Georgia so that their presence has a chance of deterring a continued Russian invasion. That's it. We have no need to occupy anything.
 
[quote name='level1online']Georgia, they started it with a sneak attack.

The media, for telling you the exact opposite.

Our gov't, for backing Georgia.http://www.marines.com

oh.... and Russia.[/QUOTE]
There is the issue of alleged attacks from the separatists, which Georgia claims prompted their attack. And there is also the issue of Russia being able to move a thousand tanks into Georgia within hours, allegedly in response to Georgia's attack without prior preparation.

Its not real black and white, very little is. Georgia is protecting its interests, the major pipeline close to South Ossetia. Russia is advancing its interests, countering US influence in the area and causing serious harm to an economic competitor.

It seems like Russia baited them into this by consistently escalating the situation through recent months, and finally having the pro-Russian separatists shell Georgian territory to trigger a response. Russia, using the precedent set by the US going into Iraq unilaterally, rides its white horse into South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, and while they're there, Gori, Poti, and Senaki. But as of today, there is no evidence to support this, or the ethnic cleansing claims by either side.

The US couldn't intervene militarily, but they did the right thing here by sending in troops during the ceasefire. This gives Georgia a better bargaining position during the negotiations, Russia will not be able to resume their attack if Georgia doesn't submit to their demands.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Well considering the Georgian president ASKED the West for support, and he's been in quite a bit of direct contact with our president, it sorta seems like we've been invited.

Maybe you misunderstand the situation. See, we're not attacking a nation. We're sending soldiers with supplies to Georgia so that their presence has a chance of deterring a continued Russian invasion. That's it. We have no need to occupy anything.[/quote]
nah, i'm not talking about the US doing like they did to Iraq but what Russia is doing to South Ossetia seems like what we did to Iraq.

georgia sneak attack, to me, really says a lot. but who knows.
 
[quote name='kainzero']nah, i'm not talking about the US doing like they did to Iraq but what Russia is doing to South Ossetia seems like what we did to Iraq.

georgia sneak attack, to me, really says a lot. but who knows.[/QUOTE]

The Ossetian's voted recently to have their province become part of Russia. They all love russia and 99% of them voted for it. Russia has also given them all Russian passports a while ago. The Ossetian's have an extremist group that is hostile towards Georgia (even though they reside within Georgian borders currently).

The extremist group kept escalating threats and the President of Georgia got sick of it and sent in troops. It's very unclear, at this point, what he did to shut them up. Russian's claim that Georgia ran over them with tanks and burned them alive, but Russia is known for lying propaganda.

Russia clearly had a huge army just waiting for Georgia to make a move like this and immediately went in as the saviors of the Ossetian's. They not only kicked Georgia out of Ossetia, but they occupied half the country in 5 days, bombing airports, ceasing weapons, and killing a few people.

That's the gist of it. There are many unanswered questions and it's a complex situation. As others have said, there is no clear good guy here because of the propaganda without proof.

On a personal note, all the former Soviet satellite countries are on edge now. They see this as Russia pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with, and now that they've seen nothing will be done when they want to flex their muscles, they fear they will continue this type of behavior with hit's border countries.
 
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