How Are You Handling the Economy?

mykevermin

mykevermin

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The news wants to be the girlfriend to let you down gently, and Ben Bernanke wants to be the girlfriend who doesn't see problems with the relationship just yet. I'm neither of those two people, but I want to be the one to tell you: our economy's fucked, we're headed for a long recession if we aren't categorically in one yet, and there's nothing we can do, by now, to stop it.

Have you been affected by the economy yet? How are you weathering problems now, or prospective problems in the future? Saving money? Not using credit (or worse, having to use credit)? Curbing discretionary spending? Staying away from theaters, gamestops (or your store of choice if you're too good for GS), bars, etc.?

My wife is in an ideal position, as she stays busy at work when there are lots of closings, and she stays busy at work now that closings have slowed to a trickle, and the foreclosures have skyrocketed. (ideal for our income, of course - we're not exactly tickled pink by the idea that other people's misery is bringing home the bacon). Meanwhile, my father in law was laid off at the start of the year; he works in homebuilding/carpentry. He's not as confident, but listening to him over the past 12 months or more, I think his bosses tried to hang onto him as long as they could (without, of course, digging into their own quite full coffers).

So, how's life treating you?
 
I really want to say something intelligent about all this, but I'm frankly not a very good writer. So... please don't give me too much grief.

Way back, (before some of the users of this site were even /BORN/), there was a rallying call: Trickle Down! Trickle Down! Trickle Down shall save us!

... My father didn't work steadily for two years during that period.

Please bear with me. This isn't a political tirade.

I lived in a resort town. The sort of place where there were two kinds of people:

Rich (Vacationing Manhattan Social lites. Seinfeld Characters. Publishers. Movie Producers.)

Lifestyle Maintenance People (Construction and repair people such as my Dad. Police officers. Teachers.)

Trickle down may or may not have contributed to the recession that my family weathered through. However, what I observed first hand is that the recession seemed to be /glorious/ for those who were above a certain income level. The foreclosures let them buy up property. The hit in lifestyle quality of other people made theirs relatively /better./ A number of investment opportunities to buy low popped up.

Class mates whose parents bought them brand new Mustangs, suddenly had BMWs the next year.

My father tightened up the finances, and spent almost all of the money he had set aside for retirement to pay off our mortgage. So that the 'rich folks couldn't muscle us out.'

... My family home is now surrounded by extremely expensive property. A black community created during 1960's to 1970's real estate practices is now significantly white upper class.

Dad's house is now his retirement package.

I'm getting older. It always seems to play out the same: recessions mostly hurt those who have little TO LOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

As for me personally:

My wife's job and career choice is pretty immune to recessions.

Our home is worth less than half our yearly income before taxes.

The only outstanding debt we have in order of low to high: two car loans (0 percent financing and 1.9 percent) , house mortgage (bought way before all the current sub prime issues), student loans.

I mostly worry because I genuinely /like/ people; I'm concerned for my friends, family, and random strangers. I'm not worried about myself.
 
Myke it's possible to bring things back but most aren't going to want to hear what I'm going to say. Self sustainability. They need to start offering low interest loans for Solar Panels, specifically Konarka's. Getting these installed is key as well as people buying a second car, that being Electric, to get around town. www.zappmotors.com/
Both of these are major steps towards people willing to take a pay cut and us being able to truly compete. We need this before the Oil Industry strangles us to death.
 
You guys can thank the financial services sector for this. It was an area where people were screaming for deregulation when it wasn't ready for it, and this is what happens.

How can so many people have thought it was a great idea to offer long-term mortgages that had payments which would exceed the borrower's earnings potential? Guess that's what happens when commercial banks are not required to service a loan, or even originate it anymore(note: your mortgage is sold to a securities group before you even begin to negotiate it, and it's usually out of the bank's hands when you're out the door).

As for me, I'm a broke-ass college student. I've been handling things the way I always have; sucking it up and hoping for a better future where I don't have to be a bus-boy.
 
I'm doing OK. The biggest hit I'm facing is the value of my house. We bought in January of 2004 for $485 and in January of 2007 our neighbors sold the exact same house down the street for $600 (without central air, which we have). We were psyched but now that we have started thinking about upgrading to something bigger I fear that we won't see anywhere near that kind of price... I guess we will ride it out for a while longer... We don't have much debt - never had credit card debt and all of our school loans are paid off. Only thing is the house and one more year on the car.
 
I can't complain. I'm involved in the tunnel and heavy underground construction industry, and the amount of infrastructure work, like highway and subway tunnels, along with large diameter sewer tunnels, is amazing. Government along with state and local are really putting the money into infrastructure work, and it looks to continue strong for at least the next 10 years.

I agree that the housing market, including new construction, has taken a big hit with the recent turn of events. It's a shame that people bit off more than they could chew, and now people like mykevermin's father-in-law must suffer the consiquences.
 
Well I'm in a bit of a pickle. I get out of the Navy this August and won't be done with my bachelors for another 8-9 months. Staying in the military is definetly out of the question for obvious reasons. I'm originally from and currently stationed in New England and the cost of living up here is just way to much to get by on unemployement and savings. So my wife and I are planning on moving down south were you can actually get a descent apartment for 600 a month. What will happen once I get my degree and try to start a new career or when unemployement and our savings runs out I have no clue and its really scary.
 
Don't move down south, you'll get stupid :D

The recession doesn't affect me much. I don't live in debt, my job is stable, my car is almost paid off.
 
As a college student, I'm not as drastically affected as the people who are out on their own making expensive purchases and taking out loans. I'm always saving money and trying to avoid excessive spending, so really, nothing's going to change for me, most likely.

But I will definitely agree that the economy is going to be fucked for quite a while.
 
I haven't seen it yet. My wife works for the state and would never get fired even if she messed up her job royally...which, as she puts it, is mind numbingly boring and simple. My job's working out well, but I'm in the environmental field so as long as people keep making messes...or need to clean them up, I'll still be working.
 
I am also a college student, and as someone who drives about 400 miles a week, the only thing I care about is gas prices. And in MN, they are pretty low compared to the rest of the country. $2.79 right now. Don't really care about all that other stuff.
 
I don't even have a job. I've been doing clinical studies and selling blood/plasma to make ends meet.

I've been homeless before so I have no qualms with selling all my shit and rail hopping to a warmer spot and living off the land again or if absolutely need be going to another city and living on the streets again.
 
I bought a house two years ago on a 30 year fixed which is the only debt i have... no student loads, car, or credit card debt at all. As long as i'm able to hold on my job i should be ok, but who knows whats going to happen in the enar future. I don't see my job being here in the next 10 years, someone overseas could easily do my job for a lower wage. I've been looking for a new job for over 2 years and haven't found much in my field which is scary.

I know this much my december natural gas bill was $40 more than the most expensive bill i had last year. A $275 natural gas bill for a 740 sq. ft house in December with a thermostat set at 65 degrees seems astronomical to me.
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']I don't even have a job. I've been doing clinical studies and selling blood/plasma to make ends meet.

I've been homeless before so I have no qualms with selling all my shit and rail hopping to a warmer spot and living off the land again or if absolutely need be going to another city and living on the streets again.[/quote]I'll buy your PS3!
 
Been on my own for almost a year now and things are okay with me. Getting married this year, so that might hurt a bit, but we're trying to pay for everything with cash as to not build up crazy debt. We are in an apartment now in New Jersey and don't think we could ever afford a house here. We'd love to stick around this state but don't see any way we can do it. The south might be calling our names as well. North Carolina is nice and half the people living there now are from NJ.
 
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']Been on my own for almost a year now and things are okay with me. Getting married this year, so that might hurt a bit, but we're trying to pay for everything with cash as to not build up crazy debt. We are in an apartment now in New Jersey and don't think we could ever afford a house here. We'd love to stick around this state but don't see any way we can do it. The south might be calling our names as well. North Carolina is nice and half the people living there now are from NJ.[/quote]



Where is NC are you thinking of going? Right now my wife are leaning towards Wilmington since beaches are important to us though I've heard Raliegh is really nice.
 
[quote name='homeland']Where is NC are you thinking of going? Right now my wife are leaning towards Wilmington since beaches are important to us though I've heard Raliegh is really nice.[/QUOTE]

I have an aunt who lives in Raleigh and has lived in Cary which is nearby. Really I like NC a lot. It has the flavor of the south without feeling like your in a Larry the Cable Guy skit.
 
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']I have an aunt who lives in Raleigh and has lived in Cary which is nearby. Really I like NC a lot. It has the flavor of the south without feeling like your in a Larry the Cable Guy skit.[/quote]


Something calls me to the Raliegh area but I love the ocean to much. Global warming needs to speed up and make Raliegh an ocean city!
 
saving my money to pay for a wedding, going to school, and I'm in the process of taking a second job to save more money.

On aside noteI just took out my first loan to help pay for school, since the rest of the 6 years has been paid for out of my own pocket, or investments.

Probably try to invest some more money this year in the mutal funds.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']I know this much my december natural gas bill was $40 more than the most expensive bill i had last year. A $275 natural gas bill for a 740 sq. ft house in December with a thermostat set at 65 degrees seems astronomical to me.[/quote]
That does seem high. My house is slightly larger and I just got the gas bill today and it was $124 (I live in STL too, btw). I keep the thermostat on 68 when I'm home and 64 when I'm at work. Only things that use gas in my house are the furnace and water heater though.

Back on topic, I'm doing okay right now. I work for the state so my job shouldn't be going anywhere, and I have minimal credit card debt. No car note or other loans to worry about.
 
[quote name='gamegirl79']That does seem high. My house is slightly larger and I just got the gas bill today and it was $124 (I live in STL too, btw). I keep the thermostat on 68 when I'm home and 64 when I'm at work. Only things that use gas in my house are the furnace and water heater though.
[/QUOTE]


Same here, my house is older though... built in the early 50's no that means no insulation in the walls (plaster) but i did get a bunch blown in the attic but it hasn't seemed to help. I was getting $35 gas bills during summer though and all that was using gas was the water heater. I called Laclede and requested them to check my meter and they said everything was fine.
 
Currently in college, when i get out i'll have a fair ammount of student loan debt to pay off. Hopefully by then things will be better.
 
[quote name='homeland']Something calls me to the Raliegh area but I love the ocean to much. Global warming needs to speed up and make Raliegh an ocean city![/QUOTE]

If you are into anything IT/Software/Science/Engineering related, the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill "Research Triangle" is the place to be in NC. I am currently living in Bellevue, WA (East side of Seattle), but my mom lives outside of Raleigh. It really is a nice place to live, and it has plenty of jobs if you are into Science or Engineering related fields. As well, if you commute from just 20-30 miles outside of Raleigh, you can get a fairly decent 3-4 bdrm house for 120-200k (as opposed to Bellevue where the same costs 650k+)

As far as my situation, I can't complain. I am in a fairly stable engineering position at my telecommunications company. I make waaaay under the industry standard, but at the same time, I have lots of perks. I basically come and go as I please as long as my work gets done. I have tons of personal days/vacation time/paid holidays/sick days, and good health insurance. I also managed to obtain a condo that is worth twice the outstanding mortgage.

My question to you all is how are you going to spend the "Economic Stimulus" rebate that congress is putting together over the next week. I have heard that it could range from 500-800 for a single-status up to 1600 for a married couple (depending on tax-basis). Will you use it towards consumer spending on gaming goodies to give the economy a swift kick (although by all accounts the gaming industry just saw an all time record 43% increase in 2007). Or will you spend it on your bills or just save it altogether?
 
I feel strangely un-affected by all of this, at least financially. The only debt I'll have is ~$16,000 after I graduate next December, and I haven't the economic forsight to see that far, so I haven't a clue as to how that'll end up. Otherwise, I just spend like half of what I make and safe the rest. I have probably $900 in checking and $2,500 in savings, so maybe that'll help out. I hope to have ~$8-10,000 saved up for when I do graduate, so I can pay a handful of it off then build credit by doing the rest like a real loan.

Luckily, medicine is a fairly stable field, and the huge plus is that it can't be outsourced. They need us, here and now, not on a phone-repair line in the Bahamas.

With regard to housing, I was never one of those flakes who wanted a big house with a white-picket fence and a clean yard, I've always just wanted a fairly modern, smallish place to live in like an apartment or condo, ideally with or near friends.. so in that regard I guess I'm not so affected. Has anyone seen our friend Dubya's little "Shot in the arm" (stupid fucking phrase) to try and curb this issue? I dunno if it's been posted already and I'm too lazy to look, but: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7196517.stm

He's calling for an economy kick-start, you guys! There's our fearless leader inaction.

Er. In action. :oops:
 
I'm doing okay given all factors in my life. I recently just got over a bout with cancer (Hodgkin's Lymphoma) and I'm still not allowed out into public due to a low white blood cell count, so I'm surviving by not being able to go out to spend money and selling stuff on ebay.

Not too bad, but finding a job in a month or so is going to be a PITA.
 
This is the first that I've heard of an 'Economic Stimulus' plan.

Chances are we wouldn't qualify for it. Income too high.
 
I'm doing quite well, relatively speaking. I've been working feverishly to pay down all my debts, and will have the last of them (my cars) paid off in a matter of months. I've built up a healthy emergency fund that I could live off of for at least three months if I were jobless.
 
all i know is all that money i got in the market have been doing fucking horrible lately. I have no confidence that it will change anytime soon
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']I don't even have a job. I've been doing clinical studies and selling blood/plasma to make ends meet.

I've been homeless before so I have no qualms with selling all my shit and rail hopping to a warmer spot and living off the land again or if absolutely need be going to another city and living on the streets again.[/QUOTE]

Wow I have a few friends that do this stuff. They never get to the point of getting the net for too long though. Their problem is drugs or alcohol mostly though. Nothing too hard (pot, pain meds) but they never seem to get on their feet for more than a few years, then it all comes back down.

I am about 5-6 years into sales (commercial insurance) so its pretty stable. I am at that point were I am established and this year looks good. It would have happened sooner, had it not been for that damn appendix fuck up by the hospital in late 2005 that took me out of work for 13 weeks.

I do mostly Health insurance so there is a big crunch on me. I just bonused enough to pay back the last of my 2005 "draw" and come out with a bonus of cash in my pocket, so that helped. We do have some debt, but I am very good with the money.

The wife is in retail, but seems to be doing all right, she has turned down a few promotions so for us we are alright. The gas hurts a little as I put 30-50k a year on our cars, but thats how it works I guess.

Michigan is tore up pretty bad due to the car industry, a lot of friends are not doing the greatest, but I see some of their mistakes. Most of the ones in some trouble had too many kids too quickly (2-3). We are still kidless, not for the lack of practice though, just how luck has had it. I think that helps somewhat as they can be expensive.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']Wow I have a few friends that do this stuff. They never get to the point of getting the net for too long though. Their problem is drugs or alcohol mostly though. Nothing too hard (pot, pain meds) but they never seem to get on their feet for more than a few years, then it all comes back down.[/quote]
It's good and bad. I'm just having a real hard time landing work in Boston. The good thing about it is that it gets you out of the comfortable mindset of security and start makes you thinking about that next hustle and actually acting on a lot of ideas. It's also forcing me away from eating meat and cheese which is something I've always wanted to do but now am being forced into.
 
I'm not saving as much as I'd like, but I have a lot of job security in a company that has no debt, is privately held and generates in excess of $10mil per year in revenue amongst less than 150 employees. Our industry sucks (telecom) but we're well managed and well positioned. We're actually expanding which is seemingly rare at the moment.

The woman isn't doing as well as I am. She's unemplyed and highly specialized, aka can't find a job for her life. She also has $30k in debt and has little opportunity to get out since she isn't working right now.
 
I'm a broke unemployed college student. Fortunately, I have a scholarship that pays 75% of my tuition. It's the books that hurt, though. I'm hoping to secure a job within the next month. Overall, my parents should be fine as long as their tennants keep paying their rent.
 
well i have a better job than i did before, so thats good. i dont have many expenses, and i dont own a home, so it really hasnt hit me too hard. the worst part about todays economy for me is the cost of gas, because i commute about 30 minutes to work everyday, so im spending about 50 bucks a week in gas and for 200 dollars of my monthly budget to go to gas, well thats more than my cable, internet, phone, cell, electrity etc. so yeah.
 
I can't complain too much. I just started a high paying job 6 months ago with a generous 403b. So even though the stock market is in the tank, my money is going in when it's cheap meaning bigger returns when the market bounces back. We're also planning to buy a house in about a year so we'll benefit with the drop in housing prices. In a perverse way, the downturn is actually helping me.
 
Gah I really need to get into my music and get a place overseas for now. Working with DJ Hasebe in Japan would be awesome.
Good money and I can get out what no one really seems to be speaking about in music.
 
As of right now I have a union job so I am pretty safe.

I go to college though and I am almost done, I may stay in longer and go to grad school now instead of later in life.
 
[quote name='Msut77']As of right now I have a union job so I am pretty safe.

I go to college though and I am almost done, I may stay in longer and go to grad school now instead of later in life.[/QUOTE]

Don't hold your breath, look at Detroit. GM and the rest are trying to destroy the Auto Industry there, then will start making Electric or Hybrids in China. After the sales pick up they will say part or most of the success was they didn't have to worry about the overhead of pensions and retirement benefits. Never mind it's GM's fault only for not doing as well as they haven't listened to the market and introduced a CAR Hybrid, i.e. a REAL Hybrid not an SUV that just doesn't guzzle as much gas because it's a Hybrid.
You want to see any of these companies, not just Auto, begin to make real profits put them in my hands. First, these business trips would NOT be First Class, only Coach. You don't stay in a Hotel, only a Hostel. Instead of having business lunches you chat and eat in the Conference Room with an on-staff Chef. You also offer pretty much Vegan Cuisine, albeit obscure stuff that it isn't obvious it's Vegan as such or for some. Past this you have a Meat or Cheese dish or both but charge accordingly. After 6 months to a year you bring in various Health Insurance certified doctors to give Physicals to send in to the company to drop down costs. All of this is cutting the fat smartly. It goes without saying Trans-Fats will be banned from the Cafeteria and butter would not be available directly though could be requested and delivered. Plant based Margarine would be widely available.
What else? Konarka solar panels would be installed to cut, if not eliminate energy costs, with 123systems Lithium Batteries in place to soak up the power for use at night time or power outages as well. In all places it can be done without clashing Konarka solar panels would be implemented inside the factories being located under the lights on the walls.
I'm sure there's more as well.
 
Hate to say it, but by the time threads about the economy get to sites like this, it becomes more a psychological issue than anything else. Recession, we're probably in more of a pronounced slow-down than a technical recession.

Right now, unemployment is a mere 5% and interest rates are still at historic lows. We are in a correction of mass expectations. People are having to grapple with the fact that they actually have to make money to own a house, and that granite counter-tops aren't a necessity, and neither is 3K sqft.

The only thing that is happening right now of any significance is that a FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY to invest is at hand.

BTW, anyone that blames anyone other than themselves for getting their house taken away through foreclosure also believes in the social state as well.

My .02, peace out bitches!
:bomb:
 
College student here, so as others have said, I don't have to worry about that much...right now.

Fortunately, the field I will be getting into (Autism) seems to be pretty stable with work.
 
[quote name='Old_School']Hate to say it, but by the time threads about the economy get to sites like this, it becomes more a psychological issue than anything else. Recession, we're probably in more of a pronounced slow-down than a technical recession.

Right now, unemployment is a mere 5% and interest rates are still at historic lows. We are in a correction of mass expectations. People are having to grapple with the fact that they actually have to make money to own a house, and that granite counter-tops aren't a necessity, and neither is 3K sqft.

The only thing that is happening right now of any significance is that a FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY to invest is at hand.

BTW, anyone that blames anyone other than themselves for getting their house taken away through foreclosure also believes in the social state as well.

My .02, peace out bitches!
:bomb:[/QUOTE]

Psychological? Tell that to the DJIA! :lol:

And, of course, you can talk about right now, at this very moment (and ignore income and wealthy trend information to suggest that unemployment is low, so we must all be hunky-dorey - also despite the severe, severe, severe limitations of unemployment as a measure of well-being). But, at this moment, right now, you'd be ignoring every major economist, economic indicator, and trend line if you want to make claims like yours.

Also, while you are correct that it is a good time to invest, the great stratification of wealth in this country makes it clear that it's a good time to invest in property for those who can afford it - which can't necessarily be everyone, or else we wouldn't have entered into the subprime crisis, no?

Lastly, your significant overstatement of "granite countertops" exposes, very likely, how sheltered you are from the kinds of homes being foreclosed upon - let alone the people who bought them. It also glosses over the responsibility of the lender in promoting a subprime loan, and ignores the idea that people don't often expect to continue making the same salary they are 3 or so years down the line. So it's more complicated than you make it out to be. Far more.
 
Well next fall I'll be off to college, but I don't know how things will be 4 years from now. Any tips on how to save money? I basically have a whopping $0 saved for college (thanx mom and pops!) and no sorts of savings accounts or anything along those lines. Another thing that sucks is that I live in Chicago. Gas is just crazy high (I'm thinking either highest or 2nd highest in the nation) and it seems like the basics (milk, juice, stuff like that) is going up too. So yeah, just wanted to know if any economic savvy CAGs could help me out. Fortunately my cheap assness has not only poisoned by game buying but it's spreading to other areas as well.
 
I'm debating between fixing my beloved Forester which has been sitting in my garage since mid December or buying a new car. I'd prefer to fix it, as it's cheaper but after 10 years and 200k miles its one problem after another every couple weeks. A new car would be nice, but I dont know at the moment if the money is better spent on the car or if it should remain in investments.

With the way things are looking, I'm trying to get serious about my credit card debt (the only debt I have aside from the mortgage, which thank God is not much). The credit card is around 4,000 and should be zero. It's my own fault for getting it up that high in the first place.

I really don't buy much from China because of their horrible human rights policies, but I'm more vigilant about that now. Couple the human rights issues with them basically burying the money they get from us (instead of putting it back into the economy), we're going to suffer seriously in future.

I'm not an alarmist, I'm not into controversy or fear-mongering. I'm just keeping an eye on my own saving/investing/spending habits and adjusting what I do because I don't see our government doing much other than burying their collective heads in the sand over what's around the corner.
 
[quote name='guinaevere']I'm debating between fixing my beloved Forester which has been sitting in my garage since mid December or buying a new car. I'd prefer to fix it, as it's cheaper but after 10 years and 200k miles its one problem after another every couple weeks. A new car would be nice, but I dont know at the moment if the money is better spent on the car or if it should remain in investments.

With the way things are looking, I'm trying to get serious about my credit card debt (the only debt I have aside from the mortgage, which thank God is not much). The credit card is around 4,000 and should be zero. It's my own fault for getting it up that high in the first place.

I really don't buy much from China because of their horrible human rights policies, but I'm more vigilant about that now. Couple the human rights issues with them basically burying the money they get from us (instead of putting it back into the economy), we're going to suffer seriously in future.

I'm not an alarmist, I'm not into controversy or fear-mongering. I'm just keeping an eye on my own saving/investing/spending habits and adjusting what I do because I don't see our government doing much other than burying their collective heads in the sand over what's around the corner.[/QUOTE]

Let's talk. www.konarka.com/ Check that website first.

I know how you feel about China but what's your driving like? If you only drive a little under 40 miles a day including work check here as well as everyone else in this thread. www.zappmotors.com/ It's time to assess the damage. Yes this car is made in China but do you want your financial freedom? It is like that OR...we start with our own car designs with making electric cars. We need to do both in some reasonable amount of time or we're screwed and the gate will close. The gas crisis is their way of eventually crippling us to where we can move no more without government assistance pretty much.
For all of you here especially the poster right above Gwen some steps can be taken short term to start to free up money. 1.Find the money to buy a Soy Milk maker. 2.Make Soy, Rice, Bean milk, etc. 3.Buy on the base. Buy Organic Flour, Beans, rice, etc. If you have to buy regular fruit and vegetables but get Organic seeds and grow them. If this isn't possible try to start a Community Greenhouse.
Basically go down to scratch in WHATEVER you cook. Ditch prepackaged meals, mixes, etc. Try to cut down on using canned stuff as well but that's jmo there.
If you still have cost or more issues there join a Wholesale Club and split costs with friends and split the quantities. After all every little bit helps.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']If you have to buy regular fruit and vegetables but get Organic seeds and grow them. If this isn't possible try to start a Community Greenhouse.[/quote]

Only thing I can think of that would be easier is to join an agricultural co-op (I'm quiet sure that thats not the term). I forget the term, but in turn for helping with the duties, you take home whatever is based on how much you do. I hope that makes sense some how
 
[quote name='HumanSnatcher']Only thing I can think of that would be easier is to join an agricultural co-op (I'm quiet sure that thats not the term). I forget the term, but in turn for helping with the duties, you take home whatever is based on how much you do. I hope that makes sense some how[/QUOTE]

Yeah it's cool. We need to free up more cash then even take control our own way. We can win, we just gotta keep trying. Can't let these motherfuckers 1984 us. fuck the Real ID Act.
 
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